The ABC Classical FM is just marvels. I love it.

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/

Can you guys who live in Australia comment on the local FM quality of ABC Classical broadcasts? I listen it in US over internet, taking advantage of 15 hours difference and catching you live evening concerts just when I start my work. For instance today I caught the final of your local youth competition and to my surprise LOVE what your Melbourne Orchestra did.



Here in US, we mostly do not know anything about West Australian Symphony, Melbourne Symphony, Australian Chamber, Heidelberg Symphony, Melbourne Philharmonic , Sydney Symphony, Tasmanian Symphony, Wollongong Symphony, Adelaide Symphony and many others …

So, I wonder if the ABC Classical FM broadcast live in good quality in your continent then would you be interested to exchange live FM recordings with me? I think with my FM stations I can offer something interesting in exchange. I would be interested ONLY in live and live-to-tape broadcasts that are not available cosmetically.

peter foster wrote:

Dear Romy, it is possible.  I would need to obtain some cables to make the connection between my Sansui TU-X1 and Lavry Blue ADC.  Also, I do not have access yet to broadband so till then recordings could be to CDR and then I could post them to you.  Up till now I have not felt the need to record the broadcasts because there is so much good quality broadcast material on our two classical stations being 105.9 and 103.5 that I can just tune in to whatever is being broadcast or play from my own catalog of CDs.  I would need some information from you, such as: - 1.  Tell me how you are connecting your TU-X1 with your Lavry Gold ADC and some pictures would be helpful. 2.  Tell me what settings you would want on the TU-X1. 3.  Tell me what settings you would want on the Lavry Blue. Then I can obtain the cables and we can do a test to see what results are achieved.

Peter, it would be great if you get involved into the FM recording BUT you need to do it for your own interest, not for the sake of somebody ask, for the sake of audio interest or for any other motivations. I know this feeling:” felt the need to record the broadcasts because there is so much good quality broadcast material … that I can just tune in to whatever is being broadcast”. However, right along with the broadcast sometimes slip absolutely unique and amassing performances that never will be repeated and never will be published. That is what I am after. I do not collect music, I collect events and I feel that live FM broadcasts are a wonderful opportunity to have access to the events of interests. So, if you feel that the even you can get access via. FM are worthy for YOU to preserve then here is some of my thought about the recording techniques.

1)    If you wish to make very minor and easy tweaks on you TU-X1 then it will be useful. Let me know and I will make short list.

2)    I drive my preamp with one of the TU-X1’s output and another TU-X1’s output drives the RCA to XLR cable and then plugged into my ADC. If you do not have the RCA-XLR cable then you can make it your or but an RCA-XLR adaptor.

3)    I record in 88/24. You might record in whatever format you wish but I would stay at minimum 20 bit. Evan the 44.1/20 is good enough. If you have a hard disc space (1sec = 1meg) then I would stay with 88K and 22-24 bit. With FM record you will be way above what CD can handle…

4)    I record the whole broadcasts – with anointments, applauding, interviews and so on – the whole experience…

5)    You would need some good recording software. I you wish to try I mish send you a copy of VaveLab5.

6)    Eavns if you bite it then you would need a dedicated mashie with good quality I/0 to drive your Lavry.

rwjp wrote:

I live in Melbourne Australia and happened to listen to this live broadcast last night, at a low level due to having two young kids. Although i don't listen to a lot of classical music, with a new tuner in my system i am finding myself listening to ABC quite often and really enjoying it. As for recording live broadcasts i have no idea (as yet) the best method for recording from the radio. My tuner, Accuphase t-1000 does have a digital out so i guess all i need is a dac/cd recorder? Regards Rob.

Rob, with the Accuphase t-1000, that has digital multiplex decoder it is very easy to record the FM feed. This tuner has 172K A/D built-in and the output stream presumably of 16bit and44k. I do not know it is possible to get from it at least 20bit/44k but it still shell be very convenient tuner with very good quality. It is shame to have a tuner with a digital output and do not record, it is also silly to have such a tuner and “don't listen to a lot of classical music”… :-) but this would be a different story…

Well, if you tuner outputs 44/16 then it is what you CD players does and you do not need anything else. Get a good I/O cared on you compiler (it might be as little as $100) and some kind recording software. Then feed your PC to a DAC the rain your CD (it will recognize the 44/16 stream and you shell be all set.

The multiplex decoder breaks some new ground compared to the T-109V. It first converts the output of the detector to digital via an AKM 5385, 24-bit, 192 kHz A/D converter. This is a part touted by some as a mastering grade A/D converter. It is more than good enough to fully exceed the frequency, distortion and noise potential of the FM Stereo media. In fact, it has -103 dB S/N+D, -114 dB S/N and 114 dB dynamic range. The T-1000 then uses a TI digital signal processor to synthesize and then cancel the pilot tone. The DSP is followed by an AKM AK4114, 24-bit, 192 kHz Digital Audio Interface Receiver (DAIR). While jitter is not specified for this part, most of the better DAIRs have reduced jitter tremendously compared with a few years ago. Finally, D/A duties are conducted by an Analog Devices AD1853 D/A converter. This part has -104 dB S/N + D, -117 dB S/N (48 kHz stereo), and 116 dB dynamic range (48 kHz Stereo). The output op-amps are the unexceptional JRC5532 parts. I would have liked to have seen better op-amps such as the AD797, OPA627 or at least a OP2134. While the D/A converter parts are in vogue right now and are one of the better parts available in the multi-delta sigma type, I would have personally liked it better if the PCM1704 R2 style DAC had been used. Others will no doubt disagree, but in my view the PCM1704 is the best single IC DAC that I have tested. More about DACs later. Some analog purists will say that they don't want an A/D converter, a DSP or a D/A in their tuner. My comment to them is that this is their loss. With the bandwidth of FM being strongly limited by the 19 kHz pilot carrier, the 48 kHz sampling rate of the digital components should be more than wide enough to prevent information loss. In fact, listening tests (see below) seem to indicate fidelity gains NOT losses.


Regards Rob.

I have been wanting to set up my components for recording of broadcasts for a while now so this would be good incentive to shift my backside into gear.

My Sansui TU-X1 has been restored and improvements made.  I am very happy with the results at the moment.  First let's see if it gives you what you want in a recorded performance.  If the recordings are not good enough quality then I would look into why and what to do.

I have RCA-XLR adaptors and can shift cables so that is no problem.

I would probably start testing using TU-X1 FM OUTPUT (FIXED) as a first option.

Format should be no problem as I can output whatever the Lavry Blue ADC will do (up to 96/24).  The main restriction is that without broadband (we live in a semi rural area) I would have to copy the files to CDR and post.  The recording time available on a 74 minutes blank CDR are not great and would be: -

44.1/16 ~ 74 minutes.
44.1/20 ~ 42.9 minutes.
48.0/20 ~ 39.4 minutes.
88.2/20 ~ 21.5 minutes.
96.0/24 ~ 19.7 minutes.

I guess it depends on the length of the performance but I probably can split a recorded performance into multiple tracks and then transfer to multiple CDRs.  I will have to run some tests.  You can then use your editing software to merge tracks.

I have the Lavry Blue ADC attached to an Alesis hard disk recorder so recording and editing on my end is no problem.

I assume that you are bypassing the Lavry Gold preamplifier and your cabling is: -

     TU-X1 FM OUTPUT (FIXED) [R] output -> RCA-XLR adapter -> Lavry Gold ADC XLR [R] input.
     TU-X1 FM OUTPUT (FIXED) [L] output -> RCA-XLR adapter -> Lavry Gold ADC XLR [L] input.

I would still need to know from you: -

a.  What settings (front panel buttons) you use on your TU-X1 when recording.

b.  What settings (selectable options) you use on your Lavry Gold ADC.  I think they are the same selectable options as for my Lavry Blue ADC.  For example, analog soft saturation; digital soft saturation; dither: acoustic bit correction or ABC-1 or ABC-2.

Regards, Peter Foster.

peter foster wrote:

I would probably start testing using TU-X1 FM OUTPUT (FIXED) as a first option.

If you have the FIXED output then it is all “tweaking” that you need to do. Bothe of my TU-X1 were export version and both outputs were driven via an output pot that needed to be bypassed. With the FIXED output you out of the woods…

peter foster wrote:

I guess it depends on the length of the performance but I probably can split a recorded performance into multiple tracks and then transfer to multiple CDRs.  I will have to run some tests.  You can then use your editing software to merge tracks.

Why would you need to do it? A regular DVD hose a WAV file of 4.7G – that is 2.3 hours of recording…

peter foster wrote:

I have the Lavry Blue ADC attached to an Alesis hard disk recorder so recording and editing on my end is no problem.

I wonder if you tried the Alesis  internal A/D processor?

peter foster wrote:

a.  What settings (front panel buttons) you use on your TU-X1 when recording.

Well, I use the settings whatever give me better result, and you need to found yours. I record only in Wide mode, pretty much I keep all buttons in the TU-X1’s FM section unparsed.

peter foster wrote:

b.  What settings (selectable options) you use on your Lavry Gold ADC.  I think they are the same selectable options as for my Lavry Blue ADC.  For example, analog soft saturation; digital soft saturation; dither: acoustic bit correction or ABC-1 or ABC-2.

88.24, no saturation activation, no dithers, no acoustic bit correction, no DC offset activation (I need to try it and to see if it is transparent in Lavry – it I transparent in Pacific though).   Generally I try to record as close to digital zero as possible but it is not always happens. Different stations do different signal output, some of them do not even stereo phase even and so of them reverse channels (very annoying!!!).  I do not set volume by digital attenuators – never. However to match the needed volume by analog attenuators is not always successful. So, if I have lisle no enough output from my tuner then I records at minus 2-6dB – it not a bit deal as at 24Bit you have a lot of depth. Generally I try to set the recordings to have in peaks around minus .5-.1dB… It happen only in very few cases as it is live and you have no control what is going on another side (limiting, compression etc), so keeping at minus 2-3dB is a good idea for beginning. If you record for a whale then you will know the signature of the suasion that you deals with and you would know how “hot” you can records a broadcast from the given station.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Why would you need to do it? A regular DVD hose a WAV file of 4.7G – that is 2.3 hours of recording… The Cat

Romy the Cat wrote:

I wonder if you tried the Alesis  internal A/D processor? The Cat

Dear Romy,

Of course I would love to be able to use my personal computer as a music server.  I did evaluate music servers (although it was some 2 years ago) and tested the capabilities of my personal computers, including Exact Audio Copy, lossless audio data formats, buffering mechanisms, CDR writers, external hard drives, raid networks, connections between audio components and personal computers, cabling, etc.  The results that I obtained were disappointing using personal computers.  I would like to revisit that whole area but I prbably need a good solution for connection from Lavry ADC to personal computer and from personal computer to Lavry DAC.  Do you have one?

The Alesis that I use has no network interface.  It makes perfect backups of CDs.  I have experienced no problems with conversion between a lossless format and Redbook in both directions as long as the word length is not changed.  As far as word length conversions is concerned this is not a function that I would perform using the Alesis.  Alesis can write CDRs in word length up to 24 bits and sample rate up to 96.0 kHz in an AIFF file format.  You can also choose, if you wish, to produce CDRs of 16/44.1 using the AIFF file format instead of Redbook.  Of course, the AIFF file format is more robust because it contains more error correction information and is a better implementation for data integrity of computer data.  What it does for me is blameless.  Of course I would be interested in augmenting this setup by being able to use persoanl computer as a music server.

For recording of FM broadcasts or any other material, I would expect to record, store, backup and play that recording at the same word length and sample rate even if it means some inconvenience with the storage medium (CDR) vs DVD.

Regards, Peter Foster.

Peter,

The subject of the music servers and the subjects of HOW to record FM are probably the subjects of other threads. I am sure that recording might be implemented by different means - as long as you feel that you do not lose the quality that FM offers then any means are good. I multiple people around the globe who visit this site would record FM and would male this recordings available for swapping then I would not propose any restrictions or regulations for “quality” of recordings, besides the artistic worth of the recorded broadcast. For ourselves:, the quality of assessment is very simple – we should not have a different between what you get out of tuner and what you get out of your recording…

BTW, this conversation brought in my mind a long forgotten idea for Performances Exchange Service:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2949#2949

We regularly exchange recordings of not available otherwise (or hardly available) performances with the people who I know personally but I wonder why I might not exchange performances with the people who I do not know, using my site as the a communication hub? Well, closer to the end of the month I might put some code together and will come up with sort of Performances Exchange Service. I hope it might encourage someone to start to record interesting FM and who know - perhaps some XM (if it is good) performing events.

If someone have any suggestions how you would like the Performances Exchange Service look and feel like then feel free to share in the dedicated thread.  I think I will go for implementing it. Even if fish from around the world visiting public juts one interesting recording per month then it will be well-justified and it is will be the right rendering of my vision about : how the high-end audio should be.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=6917#6917

Romy the Cat wrote:

I am sure that recording might be implemented by different means - as long as you feel that you do not lose the quality that FM offers then any means are good.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Hm, interesting. The problem might be in ADC, I/O cared, Recorder or DAC. When you do the experiment do you record the file? If so then you might plug ADC directly into DAC. Might your problem be with cloaking? I do know what erumpent you use but can you slave your DAC from you ADC when you use them directly? If you use Lavry 924 (I know you have it) then do you use XLR or RCA? Do you take out of the chain all the other digital devises that I know you use? The Cat

Dear Romy,

I am continuing with testing.

Conclusions at high amplifier volume: -

1) FM tuner variable OUTPUT-2 supplies less background noise than FM tuner variable OUTPUT-1.
2) Inserting hard disk recorder into the chain is blameless.
3) I have been swapping DACs in and out of the chain to compare results.  When using my Lavry DAC there definitely is additional background noise.  This is unexpected and annoying.

At high amplifier volumes, when you use your Lavry DAC, are you hearing additional background noise in your FM recordings ?

Regards, Peter Foster.

Dear Romy,

I am continuing with testing.

Conclusions at high amplifier volume: -

1) FM tuner variable OUTPUT-2 supplies less background noise than FM tuner variable OUTPUT-1.
2) Inserting hard disk recorder into the chain is blameless.
3) I have been swapping DACs in and out of the chain to compare results with good results.
4) When using my Lavry ADC directly connected to my Lavry DAC there definitely is additional background noise.  This is unexpected and annoying.  This background noise disappears as soon as I insert hard disk recorder into the chain.  Very strange.

At high amplifier volumes, when you use your Lavry ADC directly connected to your Lavry DAC, are you hearing additional background noise when playing FM tuner ?

Regards, Peter Foster.

peter foster wrote:

3) I have been swapping DACs in and out of the chain to compare results. When using my Lavry DAC there definitely is additional background noise. This is unexpected and annoying.