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   Home » Analog Playback» The Shelter 90X: mystery or mastery (55 posts, 3 pages)
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  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  542358  09-05-2008
  »  New  Shelter 901 on SME 309 tonearm...  I wish I was so smart at beginning…...  Analog Playback Forum     3  34058  12-08-2009
09-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 8223
Reply to: 8222
Does cartridge includes a video-severance of Cat?

After much talking with people I am still at lost what cartridge to get in order does not worry about cartridges anymore. It looks like I “fixed” the Shelter but now I need to take it off and to remove dust from within the cartridge – the ceremony I would like do not commit myself... I still play my SPU Classic and SPU Mono and … I actually do not remember that ever cleaned them for dust this year…

So, I kind of sold myself for a new cartridge… At this time the Ortofon Jubilee is atop my mind or a new Shelter 901/90x. If I have a confidence that the new Shelter will not be so electrostatic then I might be more inclined to Shelters. Perhaps I need to respell the problems with the electrostatic habits of my arm/cartridge. I hate to make a choice of the cartridge and then learn that my Cat rubs herself on my TT generating the statics each second I step out of my home…

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 8226
Reply to: 8222
OK, now I hate you, Shelter…
This cartridge does not just pick the dust but the static is heard via speakers if to listen it properly. I played today the “fixed” shelter and it LOVE the sound of it but why the hell Shelter picks dust so aggressively? With open belly of the cartridge and “nude” configuration the hostile dust sucking is very bad way to live with the cartridge. Since, many people report the same about 901 then would it be the profile of the tip that is responsible for the this behaviors? Here is the Shelter 901 tip of my cartridges. I know nothing about the tips. Are any other cartridges use the same profile tip and might there to be dust- inclined in the same way as my Shelter does?

Shelter_tip.JPG

Rgs, The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 8284
Reply to: 8226
The fight with Shelter 901


Ok, I desired to go to the bottom of it and found what was/is the problem with Shelter’s tendency for high static. First I checked the arm.  Putting 3 different cartridges (with own head-shell) to my 3012I recognize that there was zero static during my “lifting test”. So it was the Shelter itself.

The polls of the Shelter and the needle are not grounds and I thigh this it might be a problem, they kind of have no reference to ground in the balanced configuration of the cartridge. Most of the cartridges have magnet and needle not grounded and it never a source of static with them. Who knows, perhaps with Shelter it is different….

 So, I took a conductive silver epoxy and glued a cooper magnetic wire right to the body of the poll piece. The other side of the wire I soldered to the shell that is grounded by own SME bayonet to the rest of the tonearm. No result. No result at all, still the 2 seconds static noise is there, making the cartridges dust vulnerable. I clearly have no idea what to do next and how to fight the static with this needle…

Shelter_tip.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-18-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 8323
Reply to: 8284
Ok, Shelter, you suck. Bye-bye...

It is it; I officially close my books on my Shelter as I refuse to understand what it does. I pulled today from my shelf my collection of earliest Denon PCM recordings on LP the Denon record in end of the 78s. I generally do not like this entire series but the first releases where OK, not as good as then might be analog but much better than they were on CD.

I played the Janos Starker’s cello virtuoso showpiece (QX-7140-ND) and was bitching how weak the PCM sound on LP was. Then I hit me that I was disappointed much more then I shell – it just did not sound this time right for me with all possible abnormal problems.  The miserable Shelter sucked in dust perhaps again I figured, I took it off cleaned it up – the same result. Playing it with any other needles I was getting my default sound back…

Well, I was the last stroke and I said that it was enough. I did not have this problem for almost 10 years and Shelter always gave to me a stable never-failed sound. Not anymore. Whatever the reason is: the dirt, the wearing or the protuberances on Sun I not willing to be the hostage of Shelter’s instability anymore.  I will keep this dead Shelter as my bass-reference needle (just in case) and it will be as much as I can get from it. So long Shelter, it was a good ride with you…

It is sad to say bye to something that I like but as anything else in life: one door closed - another is getting open… I wish the Shelter would the only lost I have, particularly this week… :-)

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 8334
Reply to: 8323
Gimmie Shelter
Hi,  I'll be very interested to see what you end up with.  I really like my Shelter 901, but would like something which gives me a little more of the sound that i'm getting from my tuner. What do I mean by that, more realistic space/tone perhaps.  With the radio, for example, when I hear a piano I understand why someone would want to go to all the trouble to learn how to play it.  It seems "worth playing". Sometimes with my analog playback, the sound I get can be very interesting, beautiful, but personally if that's what an instrument sounded like I'm not sure I would really sit down to play it. Not sure if that makes sense?

I'm wondering if you are going to get a chance to try the expensive Dynavector. I'm watching that one.

R Weissman
09-19-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 8336
Reply to: 8334
The harpsichord-like cartridge.

 RonyWeissman wrote:
I really like my Shelter 901, but would like something which gives me a little more of the sound that i'm getting from my tuner. What do I mean by that, more realistic space/tone perhaps. 

 I heard a few systems with top of the line Dynavectors – they were fine. I never had my own Dynavector so it is hard to say anything. I had in part a cold shoulder to Dynavector because I had Dynavector 507 tonearm and Dynavector 411 topmost transformer and I did not like both of them. I do not think that it is rational however to anticipate the same negative result from Dynavector needles as I got form arms and transformers.

I think my primary reason why I did not expose myself to other contemporary cartridges was a good performance of Shelter 901. What I was not “broken” - whatever is broken in it now – I very much appreciated what it did. I have many offers during those 9 years from many people to try different cartridges but I truly never had a need – the 901 did exactly what is necessary in my view. If my 901 did not go “south” then I would gladly continue to use it. BTW, who know, I might try now the cartridge that I when for and then… I might return back to another new 901… (Presumably that the today production of 901 is the same that it was 10 years back (this assumption might be a big starch).

So, for a time being I am getting the Otophone Jubilee – I have no idea what it. The recommendation came from a person who has very similar with myself opinion about a few various cartridge that he and I used and who used personally most of the SPUs, Meister, Jubilee, Synergy and Royal. I do not know how accurate would be his advice about Jubilee but he made the case for Jubilee much more substantiated than other people who advised me different cartridges. So, I a very interested what I will be getting, it shell arrive next week.

Regarding what you say: I never experienced any problems with Shelter’s “space” – in my mind Shelter did a phenomenal space.  Did it have the same “space” and the TU-1X? Well, I do not know how about that.  I think that FM (particularly “live” FM) might present space in fundamentally different format. My other “not broken cartridges” can’t fight with my tuner’s “space” as well. The tonal qualities of the Shelter are different story but 901 is not the tonal cartridge, not violin-type but rather a harpsichord-type cartridge. It is not tone blind but it also not tone-crazy. Instead of luxury in tone Shelter 901 throws a luxury in articulations - sort of the sound of Mravinsky’s orchestra vs. the sound of  Karel Ančerl’s orchestra…

At least it is how I see the things….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 11273
Reply to: 8336
The Shelter transformers my ass!
fiogf49gjkf0d

It is not a secret that I am fan of Shelter cartridges. I do not use them but I like them, though I do not know how good they are good nowadays - 10 years ego the 901 were very fine… I am not on cartridges market anymore but I got today an email pointing me to Dick Olsher’s write up about Shelter new top of the line MC Cartridge.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0809/shelter_harmony.htm

I glance the article and read the only one sentence from it: “The best performance at the frequency extremes was to be had with the Shelter 411 step-up in the system.” I am sorry; Dick Olsher, but you are a Moron. The Dick I believe made my list before:

http://www.romythecat.com/Search.aspx?Phrase=Dick%20Olsher

…and this time he did it again. The Shelter 411 is HOROBLE step-up transformer.  I was trying to make it to work for a few years but was not able to.  I have no idea where the Dick Olsher souses his fantasies…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 48
Post ID: 11274
Reply to: 11273
Being deaf is an advantage when you want to become a reviewer
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree, the Shelter transformer is nothing special, but when you really want to loose hairs, try the one from Koetsu. Well, living in a world of morons I spend - unfortunately - too much time with reading idiotic reviews from guys who get money for that nonsense. But to make it easy to understand, this stuff is from Axiss and they really make a top job with their marketing. I am pretty sure, when they would send a stone to a reviewer, they would get a rave review about it. Of course, they would not tell the reviewer that it is only a stone. They would inform him, there is a Sign. version also available and believe me, the Product of the Year Award is close...


Kind Regards
Stitch
08-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 11275
Reply to: 11274
I do not think it is about deafness and…
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Stitch wrote:
I agree, the Shelter transformer is nothing special, but when you really want to loose hairs, try the one from Koetsu. Well, living in a world of morons I spend - unfortunately - too much time with reading idiotic reviews from guys who get money for that nonsense. But to make it easy to understand, this stuff is from Axiss and they really make a top job with their marketing. I am pretty sure, when they would send a stone to a reviewer, they would get a rave review about it. Of course, they would not tell the reviewer that it is only a stone. They would inform him, there is a Sign. version also available and believe me, the Product of the Year Award is close...

 … it is possible that the very same Dick Olsher’s under different circumstance would be able to express perfectly lucid views. It rather that and the Dick and all those similar to him people plugged in the industry and who fancy themselves that they are “reviewers” have completely enslaved and caged audio awareness that very severely screw up this own perception. I am not taking about the pure criminals who review cartridges over voice-over-IP phone lines (it had happened) or those who just wire up a “fantasy” review (it happened as well – the Moron had no phonostage or even turntable while he wrote his cartridge review. I am taking about the normal folks would truly like to share these own view with public but they are subordinated to the occupational hazard. We can make fun of the behavior, attitude and life views of those cheap street junky-hookers but kind views about love would one express after serving a dozen men per each evening? It is not very deep and not very intellectual association but it is extremely accurate association – I know quite a few of those people. 

Also, do not be too concerned that those guys get money for that own writing nonsense. If you look at the actual money they get for those articles then you will see that the money-factor is lobule. Those people mostly “work” for the opportunity to extort money from manufacturers and for the opportunity to send manufacturers go fuck themselves when manufacturers  invoice them (happened many-many times). I do feel that Dick Olsher sincerely found that Shelter is a wonderful transformer. At the same time right now 7.30 PM and while I’ am typing this post I am sure there is a few dozen of cheap whores are blowing somebody in the fitly toilets of Greyhound Bus stations. I am sure in this mind what they do is called… love.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
marknoir
Posts 5
Joined on 09-25-2009

Post #: 50
Post ID: 13943
Reply to: 8142
Shelter 90X gone flat
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Romy

I like Shelters as well, so I finally scrubbed-up enough money and began to search. I was always happy with 901, but there were none around. Last night I got a 90X, with (supposedly) around 100 hrs on it, within driving distance. So today I mounted it, and - horror - it sounded EXACTLY like you described your "flat" 901. No bass to speak of, heavy compression throughout the spectrum, and nasty, nasty peak at upper mids/lower treble, hard as hell. Tracking is fine, no distortion on cibilants, rides noemal, suspension feels right etc. Mystery. Right now it sounds so bad, that I will ask the seller to take it back. I don't feel like performing that surgery you did on your 901 :-) I guess this problem is not as uncommon... Back to OC-9ML II
07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 13944
Reply to: 13943
Cartridges are the subjects of personal hygiene
fiogf49gjkf0d

 marknoir wrote:
Hello Romy

I like Shelters as well, so I finally scrubbed-up enough money and began to search. I was always happy with 901, but there were none around. Last night I got a 90X, with (supposedly) around 100 hrs on it, within driving distance. So today I mounted it, and - horror - it sounded EXACTLY like you described your "flat" 901. No bass to speak of, heavy compression throughout the spectrum, and nasty, nasty peak at upper mids/lower treble, hard as hell. Tracking is fine, no distortion on cibilants, rides noemal, suspension feels right etc. Mystery. Right now it sounds so bad, that I will ask the seller to take it back. I don't feel like performing that surgery you did on your 901 :-) I guess this problem is not as uncommon... Back to OC-9ML II

Marknoir, I do not think that what you described is inherit problem of Shelter 90X. Of cause everything might be. Buying cartridges today is a lottery but I do not think that Shelter 90X shall be so bad. Most likely do you got a defective cartridge – that why it was sold to you – take it back to the seller. Which very much brings a question – what the hell you do buying the contemporary production used cartridges? I understand that people buy some vintage needle from 50 years old used. But the cartridges that made today – there is absolutely no need to by them used. I never buy used cartridges, never borrow them and never lend them. Cartridges are the subject of personal hygiene and must be used only by one person. Remember- no one ever will sell you used cartridges that sound good – the only reason why people sell cartridges because they do not sound good. This BTW is very applicable for all sales in audio. Private parties sell anything that they do not need or feel that it does not perform well. Take a look at me – whatever I see I consider not good for me anymore – so, what is the per pose to buy anything from me? So, buy a case a bear, take it with your cartridge back to the seller, make him dunk and he will tell you how he have fucked up his Shelter 90X.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
marknoir
Posts 5
Joined on 09-25-2009

Post #: 52
Post ID: 13945
Reply to: 13944
Shelter 90X gone flat
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Romy and thank you for a fast reply<br /><br />You are absolutely correct, but it's the question of money, which I don't have a lot of. Like we say in Russia - "Bednost ne porok, no bolshoe svinstvo" :-) So when I saw this one for $1000 (new Shelters are severely overpriced these days), I jumped on it. The problem of course is not inherent in 90X design, this cartridge is either defective, or is clogged with dust like yours was. I contacted seller last night ( one day after I bought it) and he refused to take it back and refund the money. So now I have to go thru the whole shpiel of initiating dispute on Audiogon, and let them decide. I had done it once before and won, they were actually quite helpful there. Let's see what happens. At least when I read your post I knew I was not dreaming about this particular defect. Can I use your description of this defect from your postings? Thank you<br />
07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,515
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 13947
Reply to: 13945
Buy Japanese needles in Japan.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 marknoir wrote:
I contacted seller last night ( one day after I bought it) and he refused to take it back and refund the money. There are some real a-holes out there.
Marknoir, he is not necessarily an a-holes. If I sell you a cartridge, you mount it and lower to a record then in my mind you own it and I would not take money back. Cartridges are the subjects of personal hygiene. You do not return your underwear, condoms or dental floss to store after you used them, do you? The very same are with cartridges and do not forget that the guy who sold it to you very much know what he was selling to you.

A few years back I had a conflict with a very famous Japanese cartridges manufacturer. They sold to me a brand new cartridge but I returned it only because I recognized masks of the cartridge’s pins. According to me: if a cartridge’s ever was connected by pin’s clips then it is used cartridge. The president f the company personally wrote me a letter assuring me that the cartridge was new and that the marks on the pins are technological. Nevertheless, if I see any signs of marking on pins of any dust in the cantilever channel then I the cartridge is considered by me as “used”.

Regarding the price. If you are in Russia then get your Japanese needle in Japan.  The US’s prices are twice of what they are on the Tokyo streets and I would not use them as reference…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
marknoir
Posts 5
Joined on 09-25-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 13954
Reply to: 13947
90X
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hello Romy

Today seller has changed his mind, he will refund.

I'm in Brooklyn, a bit too far from Japan :-)

Whenever I sell somrthing, I always give a money back guarantee, usually for about 7 days. I prefer to lose a few dollars rather than good night sleep :-)

All is well that ends well.

Rgds, mark


08-08-2016 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 299
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 55
Post ID: 22704
Reply to: 8323
Denon pcm what was different about it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 I pulled today from my shelf my collection of earliest Denon PCM recordings on LP the Denon record in end of the 78s. I generally do not like this entire series but the first releases where OK, not as good as then might be analog but much better than they were on CD.

The Cat


Sorry to take a left turn on this old thread but this was the only reference to Denon PCM LPs here. I have a couple of these and I was listening recently to the Janacek String Quartets LP. While I could hear a slight coarseness to the sound it struck me that this was actually a rather realistic midrange. In fact it was far better than the digital LPs that were issued in the 80s in that regard which either were thin sounding or fuller but vague and muffled. The Denon LP had a much more involving midrange sound and better transient punch than those recorded in the Sony PCM era.


My question is does anyone know what Denon PCM encoders did compared with later Sony or related PCM encoders? I realize there were slight differences in the sample and bit rate. I think Denon was using 47k and 14-15 bits. But were there other attributes of their encoding process that might explain the subjective difference in sonics with standard digital LPs? I am not talking about LP vs CD sound to be clear. Of course it might just be that Denon had an exceptional LP masterer.

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  »  New  Buying a last cartridge...  Lucky you...  Analog Playback Forum     80  542358  09-05-2008
  »  New  Shelter 901 on SME 309 tonearm...  I wish I was so smart at beginning…...  Analog Playback Forum     3  34058  12-08-2009
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