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  »  New  Bose audio and industry post-mortal ripples..  Michael Fremer can’t escape himself...  Audio News Forum     4  13334  07-20-2013
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 7952
Reply to: 7950
..and why do you make me a hostage of you TT shopping?

 markus46 wrote:
How about addressing the questions!

I did not see any worthy questions you raised. If you have any questions then answer them is your business.

 markus46 wrote:
Mate.  There is nothing complex about using your ears.
If you really believe that "the only real motivation for TT upgrade (or change of any audio component) should be a person clearly defines for himself what specific sonic shortcomings his current TT has. Then, ONLY AFTER THEN, a new TT should do nothing else but addressing those specific shortcomings", then the major postulate of your audio views is simply wrong. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

Thanks for breaking it for me but you do not see me suicidal, do you?  This perception I linked, even the understanding of this perception is a truly truly evolved moment of audio thinking and very much not for everyone, certainly not for a majority of audio simpletons. Markus, I do not mean to assign you in to the group of simpletons but if you keep pitching to me the adolescent understanding of audio I will juts loose an interest to response to you. I truly have more interesting things to do then to prove to you my “credibility” - I hope you are adult enough to have something else to do besides to search the credibility from others. I would advise you to spend some time to read my site if you are interested, I presume you that you might have a lot of to discover about audio besides the sucking in the white papers, repeating the marketing slogans, and listening what others say about audio.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
markus46
Posts 4
Joined on 07-29-2008

Post #: 42
Post ID: 7953
Reply to: 7951
You must provide a Subject for your post!
 Paul S wrote:

Markus46, you are not alone in getting the idea that much fun is made at others' expense around here.  But try reading on for a while and see if some of it perhaps starts to make sense as you expand your context.

I don't believe that making fun at other people's expense adds value to a point of view.  Certainly not the foul language and vicious name-calling employed by Romy.  It is clear that he hates these people.

 Paul S wrote:

So much of "Audio" is not only market driven, but it is plopped into a market that has been "pre-conditioned" to await and accept the current latest-and-greatest "break-through" or the solution-du-jour to the problem-du-jour, not unlike the pre-met-and-decided "fashions" for any given season, this by the "audio journalists" whose mission is precisely to SELL what they are given to sell.  Not a problem, I suppose, as long as everyone is aware of it; but at the same time, no real help, either.

Absolutely agree.  And the other extreme of course is to not believe anything anyone tells you about anything; to see conspiracy at every turn.

Assuming you're in the market for a new component, then perhaps the middle ground is to read the whitepapers, reviews, web sites with an open mind.  Then listen yourself (preferably in your own home with your own gear) and make your own decision as to if there is an improvement and if that improvement is worth the asking price.

 Paul S wrote:

Perhaps at this point the Continuum looks to you like some Uber-'Table, who knows.

Certainly not me.  I've never heard it.  I most definitely can't afford it!

My point is (again) that even though I am happy with my Linn LP12, Linn Basik LVX+ and Decca London Gold w/Garrot Bros. stylus, and can find no specific sonic shortcomings, I am open to the possibility that there could be something better out there.

 Paul S wrote:

Lots of non-native English speakers here, some with PhDs, etc., and likely more than a few ADHD, etc.  If you are sensitive it is probably best to limit exposure until you become inured.

Actually the more I've read of Romy's rants the easier it has become to get the gist of what he is getting at.  I find if I skip over the stuff that just makes no sense at all (without re-reading over and over) I can get the message more easily.

Having said that, I won't be spending any more time here.  As I said, I only stumbled across this site and thought I'd take Romy to task for some of his more outlandish comments.  Sadly it is the intellectual equivalent of stealing candy from a baby.

Regards
Mark
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
markus46
Posts 4
Joined on 07-29-2008

Post #: 43
Post ID: 7954
Reply to: 7952
Goodbye
 Romy the Cat wrote:

This perception I linked, even the understanding of this perception is a truly truly evolved moment of audio thinking and very much not for everyone, certainly not for a majority of audio simpletons.

I had no idea it was all so complicated!  Here I was thinking you just turned on your stereo, put on a record or CD and enjoyed the music.  Put me down as one of the simpletons.

I know you wont mind if I don't read the rest of your highly evolved thinking about audio.  I'm afraid that if it contains more howlers like the one about the turntable upgrade, then it's simply not worth my time.  Not that I didn't enjoy driving a truck through the holes in that position!

I'll end my time with you by suggesting you get a document together of your posts about Fremer & co and make an appointment with a mental health practitioner as soon as possible.  I am serious.

Good luck!

Mark

07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 44
Post ID: 7955
Reply to: 7953
Reflecting on the evolution of one's own audio views
 markus46 wrote:
I don't believe that making fun at other people's expense adds value to a point of view.  Certainly not the foul language and vicious name-calling employed by Romy.
Well, I think it is just his style.  He calls 'em as he sees them.  Romy, you don't actually hate Michael Fremer do you, more just despise what he does, right?  To me, at a certain point in the evolution of my understanding of audio, I grew jaded, frustrated, and utterly filled with ennui by the dominance of marketing hype in high-end audio.  When we lash out at a specific person, it is perhaps moreso an expression of this general frustration.  

Paul, you really hit it on the head.

 markus46 wrote:
Assuming you're in the market for a new component, then perhaps the middle ground is to read the whitepapers, reviews, web sites with an open mind.  Then listen yourself (preferably in your own home with your own gear) and make your own decision as to if there is an improvement and if that improvement is worth the asking price. My point is (again) that even though I am happy with my Linn LP12, Linn Basik LVX+ and Decca London Gold w/Garrot Bros. stylus, and can find no specific sonic shortcomings, I am open to the possibility that there could be something better out there.
I was at this point, too, about 25 years ago, and I would call myself an audiophool at that stage, but I had an open mind and explored what I heard and sought to understand and explain it.  This is what allowed me to evolve perhaps.

 markus46 wrote:
Having said that, I won't be spending any more time here.  As I said, I only stumbled across this site and thought I'd take Romy to task for some of his more outlandish comments.  Sadly it is the intellectual equivalent of stealing candy from a baby.
Well, that is too bad.  I think it would behoove you, Mark, to stick around and read every entry in this website in detail.  Not that it is the Bible regarding what you personally may prefer at all.  Rather, it might help you to break free of the mental chains of the audio marketing paradigm and develop you own understanding of audio.

Regards,
Adrian
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 488
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 45
Post ID: 7956
Reply to: 7955
A scientific approach to audio
 markus46 wrote:
Assuming you're in the market for a new component, then perhaps the middle ground is to read the whitepapers, reviews, web sites with an open mind.  Then listen yourself (preferably in your own home with your own gear) and make your own decision as to if there is an improvement and if that improvement is worth the asking price. My point is (again) that even though I am happy with my Linn LP12, Linn Basik LVX+ and Decca London Gold w/Garrot Bros. stylus, and can find no specific sonic shortcomings, I am open to the possibility that there could be something better out there.
I think this really expresses the trap that so many audiophiles fall into, which is why the move from one new best thing to the next, endlessly cycling.  If you can find no sonic issues with your current setup, how on earth could there be something better out there? 

It is precisely that one must understand just what are the limitations of his audio system, taken in the context of the entire audio reproduction chain including all the components, the source material, the circuit layout, and apparently your own brain -- all taken together to even begin to understand the complex challenges intrinsic in any limitation.  You must have as clear as possible an understanding of what you are seeking to achieve, what compromises you are willing to make, and what the flaws in your audio system are.  From this only, can one hope to begin to formulate a solution and then seek out a way to explore this solution.

That is the nature of the evolution of one's audio beliefs.

Regards,
Adrian
07-31-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 7957
Reply to: 7955
The style vs. the actual hate.

 drdna wrote:
Well, I think it is just his style.  He calls 'em as he sees them.  Romy, you don't actually hate Michael Fremer do you, more just despise what he does, right? 

This is an interesting question. I think that I am more driven in this by hated then by despise. The state of despise imply actions I do not support.  I do not despise the specific actions of the Fremer and the rest of the reviewing woof pack but rather I contempt the frame of mind that drive those people. This is rather a hate then despise as it directed to the state of being instead of to the specific actions. So, what I hate in those people? I hate a very fundamental and very deep-sited premise that somebody can practice audio for anything else then for himself or herself. I do practice audio and quite extensively as one might say. However, I clearly understand that whatever I do in audio has the only one beneficiary – my own objectives, my iown  nterest and my own  gratification. I do not care about anybody else’s benefits, it might not sound friendly but it is what it is.  The Framer and the Co. claim that the elected group of retarded criminals or just plain idiots made their agenda to practice audio for the benefits of other. What a foolishness! I have no problems juts to generically hate this stupid notion and consequentially to wipe my feet off any idiot-conformist who is involved into the propelling” of this foolish belive.

Then the “style” comes. I truly do not care and do not need those people – so, how would you treat the people whom you do not need and whose mind you hate?

Anyhow, what I wrote the initial satire about the Framer I was not driven by hate but rather by fun. If I have time I would write up the similar about any public audio figure. The Australian Markus’ complains I throw away – he is in too premature state and too far from general audio awareness – a little zombie heard something off the bitten path and he got disoriented and confused… It is like in MacDonald to ask any for a mill with some kind of atypical customization and they look at your like you are a war criminal…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 12086
Reply to: 1957
David Robinson about some kind of new Continuum
fiogf49gjkf0d

This there is not about the Continuum TT but about the idiocy of Mike Framer, that was so nicely illustrated. Still if someone interested about the Continuum direction then here is David Robinson’s article and his observations.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue45/continuum.htm

I did not read it yet but the format that Mr. Robinson selected suggest that it might be an interesting write up. Since it was not sponsored but this Frameing reviewing retard there is change that the new TT might sound better....

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 294
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 12212
Reply to: 12086
The PFO article
fiogf49gjkf0d

It looks to me like a most commendable review, with considerable time spent in set-up.

 

clark

07-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 49
Post ID: 16695
Reply to: 3109
Continuum is already a brain-dead company
fiogf49gjkf0d
Let's see what Framer will find next...got a mail from Australia that Continuum has Production Problems. Also some master brains left the company...
Well, I did listen 3x to the big Continuum, 2x it was more or less defect. The last time 1 channel didn't work, probably the connected Phono Stage or the set up "specialists" killed the cartridge...anyway, these guys were absolutely unable to find a problem (or the unit had so much they didn't where to start)...
That's High End.


Kind Regards
Stitch
07-23-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 16698
Reply to: 16695
This is the fate of all audio manufacturers.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Stitch wrote:
Let's see what Framer will find next...got a mail from Australia that Continuum has Production Problems. Also some master brains left the company...
Well, I did listen 3x to the big Continuum, 2x it was more or less defect. The last time 1 channel didn't work, probably the connected Phono Stage or the set up "specialists" killed the cartridge...anyway, these guys were absolutely unable to find a problem (or the unit had so much they didn't where to start)...
That's High End.

What do you mean “what Framer will find next”. Framer will do what he does the best – will be running like a wonder in ass animal in search of another company. You need to understand that the people of the Framer trade live and die by inventing and conceiving hype and then by harvesting hype. This is their job description and this is what they are being paid for. There was the Continuum phase, but according to the rule of the industry game the phases, any of their phases, cannot continue long time and must be replaced. Without the change and the need to buy into a new hype the thousand mid-age suburban idiots with playbacks instead of Harleys or Corvettes will be loosing their purpose to live and any sense of actions. So, do not worry about Framer. He is a workhorse of the industry; he and the industry will find something else.

Regarding the Continuum. Unfortunately since it was publicized by Framer the TT and the arm never had any true exposure of own Sonic capacity. A dozens of the ordinary suspects – the Robb Report suckers - who buy LPs to much record covers to the color of furniture have bough those Continuum and a few industry people got Continuums to add in their eyes the wait to their judgment.  It is it, the True Sound of Continuum might never be known.

It is sad in a way as the guy who initially designed Continuum was very talented and very interesting guy. I meet him 6 or 7 years back it was before Framer and Co. come to the picture. I do not remember his name, he was tall bold guy. He was wonderful. You see it is practically imposable to talk with most of the manufactures not to mention the marketing idiots who are 95% of the industry. All of those manufactures have yes of hungry dogs and all that they care is how to jongleur somebody else bumper sticker slogans and do not lose face while they do it. The Continuum was in fact very different. He did express very pure and very natural, almost childish interest in Sound and we had quite pleasant and stimulating conversation. It is incredibly rare that an audio makers can express pure and unadulterated interest in Sound, interest that is wider and then boundary of own product or own field. The guy was surrounded with 4-5 industry retards at that time (it was a private demonstration) and it was so visible that one human was eaten by industry zombies that it was in a way painful to watch.

Saying all of it I do not know if that Continuum guy is potent today. As I many times previously stated any perfectly normal individual who let him/herself to be plugged into high-end industry in 2 years get converted into absolutely worthless piece of shit. Unfortunately it is unavoidable process… So, is Continuum brain-dead company? Well, Continuum was Continuum when it was the Continuum designer was trying to make his TT. As soon in 2005-6 they show up in Vegas, exposed themselves to wide maker and let the industry enslave themselves then they began their inescapable slide to become dead company. As Henry Wadsworth said: "Thy fate is the common fate of all”

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 51
Post ID: 16713
Reply to: 16698
Keep on goin'
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 It is incredibly rare that an audio makers can express pure and unadulterated interest in Sound, interest that is wider and then boundary of own product or own field. 
I agree, I met maybe only 1 or 2 who really knew from what they talk. Your writing about how this System works is complete and there is nothing to add. Maybe it is even worse. Yes, I think, it is even worse.
There is no difference made between a product which is really good and complete nonsense. Your Micro Seiki experience is very well written, final too.
I know Importers who tell me, they have to give away their cartridge (or another one) for getting a review, a former Basis Importer told me years ago he got a call from an Audio Magazine (the most known in his country) and they told him they want to list the Basis Debut Vac. newly as their Reference Turntable.
He answered, that this is a nice idea, he always knew that this is a very good Turntable but when he remembers right, they never listened to one.
The answer was, well, who cares, our Reference System listed for the last 3 years were all German units and now it is time for a change, they want American made units now (new Importer Advertisings....)
Btw. it wasn't done, the Importer was not willing to give them that Turntable for free and also the US Manufacturer refused to give one for free also.
They found a German manufacturer who agreed and the Ball was rolling again...
Years later, I think nothing changed.





Kind Regards
Stitch
07-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 16716
Reply to: 16713
Name(Face)/Face(Name)
fiogf49gjkf0d
Several years ago I had a 20 minute conversation with AJ Conti (Basis).  I thought at the time that he represented the best of "audio manufacturers".  He is VERY bright, and he seemed quite knowlegable. He freely gave credit to others where he  felt it was due, and he seemed tireless in the "pursuit of excellence" in his own products.

I am not saying that anything has changed since then, but it did seem to me that those products quickly hit a sort of plateau with respect to materials and design as relates to sound.  Decide for yourself if they leveled out at the "best place".  Regardless, it appears that materials and design were settled on for reasons that have much to do with "manufacturing" (including, probably, QA), and also "appearance".  The latter "trait" is something one sees in all "product lines", that they might "distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack".

While "sound" may be considered to be "abstract" and/or "subjective", who can argue with, say, all-acrylic construction, etc.  Never mind the sonic merits of this stuff (which may even be touted...); there it is, for all to see for themselves.  This has got to be the biggest reason for most of the high-flown (often absurd) "design" decisions we see in any given "product", that a product will somehow "distinguish" itself in the mind of the shopper.

At the "basement" level, a "product" might be any concoction the "maker" dreams up, and "explanations" might range from reams of "white papers" to "secret", mystical references, to "haute couture" design that "speaks for itself".  No telling how much money might be thrown at any given product, for any given reason, especially during the early  "coming out" part of its life cycle.  Likewise, any old product might find supporters who want to "revive" it.
In all cases, the Name needs a Face, and vice-versa.

What, again, is the sonic hope for the "Pierre Clemente" cartridge?


Paul S
07-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 21071
Reply to: 1957
Defending Fremer , well kind of....
fiogf49gjkf0d
The reference object of my site brought me to the  page where some kind of audio people scrutinize Mike Fremer:

http://stereocentral.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5697&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=105

It is given that Fremer is an idiot and they guy at the site posted the frequency response of Fremer's own listening room and they are trying to present it as some kind of despicable response. It is ironic but in this specific situation I would like to defend Fremer  and insist that the frequency response posted is normal, typical for the topology of the acoustic system that Fremer  used and there is absolutely nothing  wrong with this. The topology of "everything of if one box" (aka big Wilsos) has very limited ways or no ways to deal with upper bass and partially the lower bass issues in the room and Fremer , like anybody else, is very much a hostage of the satiation. Also, if you look at the frequency deviations and how they are located across octaves then it is perfectly acceptable for this type of acoustic system topology. I am very much assure that many of your if you do measure the  frequency response in your room would have much worse result then what Fremer has.

So, I do not deny that Fremer a Moron because multiple accomplishments of his life but I do not think that it right to incremented him his "outrages" room frequency response.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-02-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 296
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 54
Post ID: 21072
Reply to: 21071
Near or far
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree that the published curves don't look bizarre for a box speaker. Is it the case that these speakers don't permit nearfield listening? That would be a way of reducing the volume and minimizing room effects. I assume that his wife locks the door to the "office". She wouldn't have to see the room which makes the average dorm room look like the work of an interior designer. BTW I'm amazed at the LPs scattered all over the floor. I guess he only worships them in prose.
07-03-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 21073
Reply to: 21072
Pre-manufactured box speaker
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
I agree that the published curves don't look bizarre for a box speaker.
Hmmm, I would like to note that my reference to "given topology" did not imply the  "box speaker". Even a multichannel box speaker might have options to adjust the out of the channels and to a degree to adjust the way how the channels are mixed. When I referred to given topology I meant the pre-manufactured box speaker. Wilson do what they do and they do fine but even they best speakers are just self-contained acoustic system that can't not take to consideration of acoustic environment of a given listening room where the speakers might be installed. I think lately they did make some affords to moodily the output from the ports but it affect only lower end and unfortunately I absolutely discard the sound that Wilsons produce in bass - to me that it very bad. So, if to consider the largest Wilson as fine acoustic system with lower limit of let say 45Hz then what options a regular user has to fine tune his or her Wilson to own room? Well, not a lot. Wilson outputs whatever it outputs and in case the room happened to be fine than the person is lucky, if not then the whole Wilson "granges" is pretty much wasted. The idea to have a high performing speaker with LF and MF integrated into one box is always kind of dangers. To have acoustic system that fits into the specific of the room  in my view is next level up in topology. The same large Wilson with separate sealed upper bass and lower bass modules would be the Wilson done properly, but I do not think Wilson even went there. Anyhow, for one loudspeaker in one box placed as is in the room Fremer has fine accidental result measurement wise. I do question that vertical frame with records  that form a wall right begin the listening spot. To me it is in position of awfully close first reflection from the left speaker and it shall be very auditable.  I do not think however that it shall prevent the idiot to do his idiot things...

BTW, do not be amazed over the LPs scattered all over the floor. I can recognize the Frank Zappa record at the very front. To me that is not amazing but very diagnosable, however highly predictable.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Versa dynamics...  Analog Playback Forum     184  742207  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  388257  01-30-2006
  »  New  About reviewer’s qualifications and disqualifications...  Sad thing....  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  19836  06-21-2009
  »  New  Sensible record cleaning: vinyl piranhas and record Vas..  A nice video...  Analog Playback Forum     53  183638  11-07-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  When I see the crap like this thing…...  Analog Playback Forum     13  98018  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  11743  03-13-2010
  »  New  Swell New RIAA-Only Phonostage, Only $60k!!!..  Vitus...  Analog Playback Forum     8  36547  07-05-2010
  »  New  Bose audio and industry post-mortal ripples..  Michael Fremer can’t escape himself...  Audio News Forum     4  13334  07-20-2013
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