| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Analog Playback» Schroder Tonearms (62 posts, 4 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 1 of 4 (62 items) Select Pages:  1 2 3 4 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  90209  07-26-2004
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  25203  03-17-2010
12-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12482
Reply to: 12482
Schroder Tonearms
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

http://www.holgerbarske.com/etf09/album/cg/slides/DSC_0892.html

I truly have no idea what this guy is doing. If it is a “new” way to measure the VTF then good luck with that.

The Cat

If I recall correctly the Schroder arm has dual magnets for setting the VTF and it cannot be measured correctly with

a usual scale due to some opposite force when the needle sits on the record. This is the idea maybe Im not explaining it perfectly though.

/P

12-15-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12483
Reply to: 12482
The Schroder arm and user placebo
fiogf49gjkf0d
 perrew wrote:
If I recall correctly the Schroder arm has dual magnets for setting the VTF and it cannot be measured correctly with a usual scale due to some opposite force when the needle sits on the record. This is the idea maybe Im not explaining it perfectly though.
Perrew, if your explanation is correct and in Schroder arms VTF is set by moving magnets then it would have nothing to do with ability to measure VTF correctly with a usual scale. To me what this guy does is participating in some kind of sham action that was most likely invented for him to follow. His dealer most likely told him that to measure VTF on the Schroder arms one needs to be stay only on one leg, has one eye close and do not eat any dark meat for 24 hours before the measuring. So, the poor guy is just following, having no idea what he in fact does. I do not see ANY tonearm where VTF can not be measured with conventional scale.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12485
Reply to: 12483
Placebo and square magnets
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,

agree it sounds and looks strange. But the arm works with two magnets, one sitting under the arm/string and the other below it on the base, these two should be parrallel when the VTF is measured and this occurs when the arm is leveled. So if you were to use a normal scale it would have to be level with the record, i.e, the scale must sit beside the record with its plate at exactly the same height as the record itself. Still I dont see why this should be so hard to accomplish, but its the explanation for the fish scale the guy uses in your picture.

/P
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
bernie_f
Posts 10
Joined on 12-16-2009

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12486
Reply to: 12483
Schröder & VTF
fiogf49gjkf0d
VTF on all the Schroeders is adjusted by moving the counterweight behind the "bearing" back or forwards. This counterweight is fixed on the armtube by a screw. On the greater Schroeder arms there is also tiny screw on the backend of the armtube to do micro-adjustments by screwing the screw in or out some milimeters (very well thought out!). As a result of all this, VTF can be adjusted with any conventional tool. It should be measured - as always in my opinion - on the record level.When you change VTA on the Schroeders, VTF drifts in very small amounts with changing the VTA, since the string of the bearing adds a llittle amount to the VTF due of bending. When the arm is perfectly parallel to the record surface, the string-force is zero. But when the front of the arm is lowered (string not in a perfect right angle to the armtube) it adds to overall VTF or vice versa.The Schroeders are great sounding arms, and can be perfectly adjusted to find the sweetspot of your PickUp. I would NOT recommend the arms to newbies. They will be fiddling around endlessly. The fundamental "problem" of this arm is, that changing one of the three main parameters (VTA, VTF, damping) changes the two others in small increments too. Can make you crazy if you are a "tweaker" not a "listener"...have a nice day anywaybernie
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12487
Reply to: 12485
No detached spring scale for high resolution measurement
fiogf49gjkf0d
 perrew wrote:
Romy, agree it sounds and looks strange. But the arm works with two magnets, one sitting under the arm/string and the other below it on the base, these two should be parrallel when the VTF is measured and this occurs when the arm is leveled. So if you were to use a normal scale it would have to be level with the record, i.e, the scale must sit beside the record with its plate at exactly the same height as the record itself. Still I dont see why this should be so hard to accomplish, but its the explanation for the fish scale the guy uses in your picture.
There are other arms the use magnet suspension and it has nothing to do with the way of VTF measurement. With ANY arm, regardless of the design, the right and the only relative VTF measurement is in the height of the record itself. Most of the conventional scales do it. What this guy does is using presumably a spring scale that is very WRONG measuring way to use for cartridges, regardless of the design of tonearms. The spring scale does very roughly measures. The can do VERY precise measure but at precision as you can’t stabilize your hand. also, if you spring is calibrated up to .1g then you can make 3-4 measurements and then your spring is gone out of calibration. So, whatever Frank Schroder does in the picture is a pure show for euro -morons and has nothing to do with what a tonearm need.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12488
Reply to: 12486
The Schroeders arm problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
 bernie_f wrote:
The fundamental "problem" of this arm is, that changing one of the three main parameters (VTA, VTF, damping) changes the two others in small increments too. Can make you crazy if you are a "tweaker" not a "listener"
Bernie,

A change of VTA would affect the VTF change on any arm. I would say that the change would be absolutely negligible in most of the cases but the VTA and VTF are related. However, the changing in damping when you change VTA is in my view is an extremely erroneous thought and if it is true with Schroeder arm then it is an indication of faulty design idea. I do not know how Schroeder arm is made, I never read too much into it but I have a feeling that if what you say is correct then Schroeder arm is most like not properly mechanically “grounded”, the same problem with what some too suspended pated has in some turntables.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2009 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
bernie_f
Posts 10
Joined on 12-16-2009

Post #: 7
Post ID: 12489
Reply to: 12482
Schröder SetUp
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi Romy.
I completely agree with you regarding the VTA <-> VTF relation on every arm out there (the lever rule also seems to work with tonearms ;-)). Also i agree that if you want the correct absolute measurement of VTF you have to do it on the record level. But we should not forget, that any cartridge has a range of VTF that can be applied without damaging the suspension of the needle. So what i do after mounting a Pickup is to set VTF to the middle of the correct/recomended range and then find the sweet spot by listening to the result and changing in small increments. Then i measure again and take this VTF as my personal reference point for that pickup in case of removing and remounting it (listening to the settings is always the best way for setup).
Regarding the relation of applied damping <-> VTF on the Schröders: the damping is applied by changing the distance between the magnet on the base and the magnet on the arm that is hanging from a thin string. The small distance between the two (ca. 0.3mm on average damping) defines the amount of damping that is the result of Foucault currents between the magnets (like the electric brakes on busses or trucks). A change of +/-0.1mm is clearly audible. Bass definiton and the resolution of decays are the things to listen to when adjusting the right ammount (like on conventional arms too). So when you decrease or increase the damping you rise or lower VTA too, but in very, very small margins. Changing the VTA some degrees up or down does almost nothing to damping, since the gap between upper and lower magnet stays the same (because the magnets are in the form of two spoons with a small gap between them).
Antiskating by applying some twist to the string holding the armwand. This is done with the screw on the top of the base. On this Photo you can see the construction in detail: http://www.schroeder-tonarme.de/images/TaDPSsemibackview.JPG
This arms do work really well. But have to be readjusted from time to time. When the avereage room temperature changes or the average air humidity changes (summer<->winter). This is the result of the string changing some parameters. This will be avoided in the future with new string-fabrics i hope...
Thanks Romy for giving us the opportunity to discuss this topics on your fine site...
ciao
bernie from vienna
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
perrew
Posts 30
Joined on 10-06-2009

Post #: 8
Post ID: 12490
Reply to: 12482
Fish Scale Measuring
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 perrew wrote:
Romy, agree it sounds and looks strange. But the arm works with two magnets, one sitting under the arm/string and the other below it on the base, these two should be parrallel when the VTF is measured and this occurs when the arm is leveled. So if you were to use a normal scale it would have to be level with the record, i.e, the scale must sit beside the record with its plate at exactly the same height as the record itself. Still I dont see why this should be so hard to accomplish, but its the explanation for the fish scale the guy uses in your picture.
There are other arms the use magnet suspension and it has nothing to do with the way of VTF measurement. With ANY arm, regardless of the design, the right and the only relative VTF measurement is in the height of the record itself. Most of the conventional scales do it. What this guy does is using presumably a spring scale that is very WRONG measuring way to use for cartridges, regardless of the design of tonearms. The spring scale does very roughly measures. The can do VERY precise measure but at precision as you can’t stabilize your hand. also, if you spring is calibrated up to .1g then you can make 3-4 measurements and then your spring is gone out of calibration. So, whatever Frank Schroder does in the picture is a pure show for euro -morons and has nothing to do with what a tonearm need.
The principle is to attach the "fish scale" right next to where the stylus hits the groove. Then you very carefully raise your hand and simultaneously watch the scale and stylus and when the stylus lifts from the record you read the scale, voila you have the VTF reading. Im not saying its superior but itsthe principle used./P
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 12491
Reply to: 12489
The satanic tonearm as far as I can see it.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 bernie_f wrote:
Hi Romy.
I completely agree with you regarding the VTA <-> VTF relation on every arm out there (the lever rule also seems to work with tonearms ;-)). Also i agree that if you want the correct absolute measurement of VTF you have to do it on the record level. But we should not forget, that any cartridge has a range of VTF that can be applied without damaging the suspension of the needle. So what i do after mounting a Pickup is to set VTF to the middle of the correct/recomended range and then find the sweet spot by listening to the result and changing in small increments. Then i measure again and take this VTF as my personal reference point for that pickup in case of removing and remounting it (listening to the settings is always the best way for setup).
Regarding the relation of applied damping <-> VTF on the Schröders: the damping is applied by changing the distance between the magnet on the base and the magnet on the arm that is hanging from a thin string. The small distance between the two (ca. 0.3mm on average damping) defines the amount of damping that is the result of Foucault currents between the magnets (like the electric brakes on busses or trucks). A change of +/-0.1mm is clearly audible. Bass definiton and the resolution of decays are the things to listen to when adjusting the right ammount (like on conventional arms too). So when you decrease or increase the damping you rise or lower VTA too, but in very, very small margins. Changing the VTA some degrees up or down does almost nothing to damping, since the gap between upper and lower magnet stays the same (because the magnets are in the form of two spoons with a small gap between them).
Antiskating by applying some twist to the string holding the armwand. This is done with the screw on the top of the base. On this Photo you can see the construction in detail: http://www.schroeder-tonarme.de/images/TaDPSsemibackview.JPG
This arms do work really well. But have to be readjusted from time to time. When the avereage room temperature changes or the average air humidity changes (summer<->winter). This is the result of the string changing some parameters. This will be avoided in the future with new string-fabrics i hope...
Thanks Romy for giving us the opportunity to discuss this topics on your fine site...
ciao
bernie from vienna

Bernie,
 
from what you described it does appear that the Schröder arm has no mechanical path to ground. I generally do not like – an arm has to have a reference to mass, otherwise it tent to have “absentminded” sound.  I do not claim that Schröder has this sound but I tend do not like the “too much  suspended” arms.

I did not invest a lot of time looking into Schröder’s arm. The Schröders make some noise but I know that value of this noise. I was told that Schröder’s arms are promoted by this douchebag from Oswald's Mill and only this single fact is indicative that this arm needs to be broken on half and burned in incinerator. I am not kidding. I do not know what in Frank Schroder’s head but he is in association with Oswald’s Mill – and this is worse than practicing a cannibalism. If Schroder’s arm is distributed by Jonathan Weiss then Schroder’s arm have no sound, users have no common sense in understanding of sound, evaluating design concepts or recognizing the results. What it has a lot however is semi-secretive handshakes, mutual assurances in marketing cronyism, deception and lie, fear of exposure and huge amount of efforts to shape up a fake marketing façade beside empty self-essence. Anything that was touched by Oswald Mill’s dirt has a stamp of Devil, similar to any audio equipment “reviewed” by Michael Fremer.  So, it is no surprise to me that Schröders arms have a number of “questionable features”.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 10
Post ID: 12493
Reply to: 12491
$ignature Intere$t
fiogf49gjkf0d
Frank himself will often cut in at this point to head off most of the speculative nonsense.  Not to co- opt him here, but I find it interesting that most of the Schroder arms (sorry, no umlaut...) are particularly subject to VTF changes with minimal changes in VTA/height [adjustment].  OTOH, if one simply must have a VTF system that considers warped records, then Frank will - for substantial extra cash - conture the magnets to give enough "range" of +/- accurate  VTF to allow for some warping.

As for "the reference path to ground", most arms have several "paths to ground".  So they must be better than good...

The main thing for a tonearm to do is to help the cartridge to do its job... and nothing else.  I can think of a couple of arms from each of several designs that might work with a  given cartridge on the right TT.  The rest will have sonic signatures that speak over any and every cartridge used with them.

I don't travel in these circles now, but I suspect that the top end version of this arm, with a  heavy wood wand, the "contured magnet", and the "damping option", will work "fine" with a the "right" cartridge.

Shoppers: good luck finding the "right" cartridge to pair with the Schroder.

(Helpful Hint: you might want to steer clear of the 901...)

Paul S
12-16-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 12494
Reply to: 12493
Schröder, Walker and a weekend with Bernie
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
Frank himself will often cut in at this point to head off most of the speculative nonsense.  Not to co- opt him here, but I find it interesting that most of the Schroder arms (sorry, no umlaut...) are particularly subject to VTF changes with minimal changes in VTA/height [adjustment].  OTOH, if one simply must have a VTF system that considers warped records, then Frank will - for substantial extra cash - conture the magnets to give enough "range" of +/- accurate  VTF to allow for some warping.

Absolutely disagree. Why one must have a VTF system that considers warped records? There are no systems in existence that would maintain proper stale VTF when VTA is changed. There are some solutions that apply parabolic VTF force and they can to a degree compensate the VTF while VTA is dynamically changed. However, the efforts to construct a mechanism of none-linear VTF application in most cases defeat the benefiters of VTF stabilization while VTA is change. Do not forget that we construct a whole new FTV mechanism ONLY to play of shitty warped records that shall not be played to begin with. Do you think it worth it? I feel categorically negative about it.

 Paul S wrote:
As for "the reference path to ground", most arms have several "paths to ground".  So they must be better than good...

It is incorrect. I do not talk about path to ground in electrical terms.

 Paul S wrote:
The main thing for a tonearm to do is to help the cartridge to do its job... and nothing else.  I can think of a couple of arms from each of several designs that might work with a  given cartridge on the right TT.  The rest will have sonic signatures that speak over any and every cartridge used with them.

I think that I would step to anti-Schroder path and would propose that the main thing for a tonearm is to furnish best and STABLE operating condition for a cartridge. A moderation and flexibility of operational parameters during performing of servile is not good thing to have. Take for instance the old Micro turntables. They have own default sound and it is absolutely imposable to change it.  You can place in atop of your bedroom pillows and cover the TT with 3 inch of pigeon shit – the TT still will, play records and demonstrate stunning integrity in sound. I know Micro TT very well but I have no idea what change I can do to make them to sound different – there is just no way to do it- intentionally or accidently.  Then take for instance the Walker Turntables. They are sophisticatedly made but here is what the idiocy of Walker’s hi-fi thinking manifest itself in full throttle. The Walker Turntables have 30374 billion adjustments and each adjustment changes the why how the TT sounds. This is incredibly idiotic notion and an indication not engineering but the amateurism in its worse manifestation.  If what Bernie report is true (and it shall be true if the arm is too much suspended) then what Schröder arms does I finds very annoying (from usability perspective) and very faulty from deign perspective. The only justification for it might be if the arm have own advanced sound in such of operation, but I can’t judge it. Well, considering that is distributed by Oswald’s asshole I actually can judge. I think Mr. Schröder shall have another distribution avenue on south: the Alabama office of Ku Klux Klan would be an excellent chose for Schröder destitution, and then you can ask my back audio folks what they think about the Schröder sound.

 Paul S wrote:
I don't travel in these circles now, but I suspect that the top end version of this arm, with a heavy wood wand, the "contured magnet", and the "damping option", will work "fine" with a the "right" cartridge.

It is very hard  to predicted how the arm sound. I have no interest to think about Schröder arm but since this conversation is lasting I will abstract into a dedicated thread

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 12496
Reply to: 12494
"Rigid"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I love the endless BS that is written about the "ideal" "rigid" connection between the stylus and the groove.  Linn did a great version of selling this notion with their LOI spiel targeting the typical OCD hi-fi nerd.  Not to say that a stable relationship is not important, rather to say that the arm need not be a 1" 16 gauge stainless steel tube coupled to the TT platter with a hinge from a bank vault in order to be "stable enough" or, more specifically, as stable as will effectively matter in terms of overall audible performance in use.

Of course I meant mechanical ground when I said that most arms have multiple ground paths.  And of course I was being facitious when I suggested that more is better.

I have to say, though, I am not so certain that the "path to ground" on many arm/TT combinations is a 1-way street.

The latest Walker, to me, looks like one of the best existing examples of the inevitable coupling of fringe OCD evolution with weird-ass devolution to yield very "interesting" results.  I would be very open to starting with that TT, though I am less intellectually confident with that arm, let alone the other "stuff" they hawk to go with the TT.

Paul S
12-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 13
Post ID: 12504
Reply to: 12496
Internet Support is the key
fiogf49gjkf0d
What is the main difference in High End today and 10 years ago?Today it is possible to launch average products into the market via Internet Hype from DIY groups. No engineer would ever create such a Design which changes performance daily depending on the weather.
And it works, the "Supporters" name that Arm in 1 sentence with Graham, Triplanar, SME etc. What a Joke.

7000 bucks fpr a piece of wood on strings which is inferior in dynamic range, in high frequency information and Bass control.
And when someone writes about, he gets very aggressive response (you can't afford it, your System is too bad, you did use the wrong cartridge blah-blah...)
One of my buddies had one, he collect Arms (I guess he owns about 7, real expensive ones), it was the only Arm he gave back to the Dealer because it was so limited in its abilities.( well, he used a different word for it...)


Kind Regards
Stitch
12-18-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 12505
Reply to: 12504
The Internet-inspired, brawn-track delivered Messiah.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Stitch wrote:
What is the main difference in High End today and 10 years ago? Today it is possible to launch average products into the market via Internet Hype from DIY groups.

Yep, you are spot on. All that you need to sell a dead rat on a stick as some kind of “culinary gourmet revolution” is few vocal cronies on web with “good spelling” and an army of ignorant customers who are craving for a new brawn-track delivered Messiah.

As I said, I have no personal opinion about Schroder arms. I never dealt with it. What you guys report about it do sound ridicules to me but I am know do not believe to “other” people. Furthermore, there are some few elements in audio performance of which I might predict with remarkable accuracy. Tonearms are very much not those elements. Tonearms are very tricky and it hard to say anything. So, do not form any opinion about Schroder tonearm besides my fear of lightly suspended arms. I however looks like VERY accurately predicted that Mr. Schroder association with Jonathan Weiss is very much not accidental. If Mr. Schroder absolutely freely chose that filthy person to present his tonearms in US then it is in my view a significant sign that Mr. Schroder is willing to be associate  with the Weiss-level of audio-expertise and Weiss-level of human ethics. What Schroder did does associate with that shit is self-disqualifying and surprise, surprise. His tonearms reportedly from you guys …. sound accordingly. Invigorating!

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-19-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 15
Post ID: 12511
Reply to: 12491
The mass-ground path in Schroder arm
fiogf49gjkf0d
Actually,
 
I was thinking again and I realized that I was wrong criticizing that Schroder arm has no path to mass ground. The string that suspends Schroder arm shall be an identical path to mass ground as it would be if Schroder arm had a conventional bearing. It is not difference if the path to mass ground located above or allow. The frame to which the string is attached mast be fixed and well-referenced to ground. So, my concern about the mass-ground path might be unwarranted.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,052
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 16
Post ID: 12514
Reply to: 12511
Art by Design
fiogf49gjkf0d

It is intresting to me that despite the insane pricing of the Schroder arms, this is yet another case where it seems necessary spend as much as possible to get the best realization of the "key features" that might actually make the arm do what it is "designed to do".  Regarding the final price, who could imagine why Frank does not want to deal directly with High-End Audiophiles, and Lord knows what the middleman's mark-up is.  I doubt Frank is getting rich off this, but if he's doing OK, then good for him.

Romy, you are correct in citing the string as the "ground path", and in the case of the more expensive versions it is a single string/single path.  As for the "rigidity" of this connection, there are knife-bearing arms that are ridgid enough.  In Schroder's case, as one ups the ante the adjustable magnets get more and more powerful, and the  most expensive version gets contoured magnets that keep flux reasonably constant in the gap even when the arm is tracking a less-than-perfectly-flat record.  These magnets line up below the string to provide a +/- damped "connection" that "continues the string through the arm wand", providing the horizontal pivot.  The string actually, physically, terminates well below the arm wand at +/- the plane of the stylus tip to keep the pivot-to-stylus distance constant during tracking, as opposed to variable, as in cases where the vertical pivot is at the plane of the center of the arm wand. Frank claims that magnetic "eddy-currents" generated by the (adjustable, remember) magnets also provide overall arm damping.

Back to the ground path, twisting this same string provides increasing-toward-the-spindle torsion as anti-skating force, similar to how it is done in correctly-installed WT arms (very loaded, as factory-mounted arms on WT ensembles I've seen are incorrect...).  And something that gets no discussion that I've seen or heard is that silicone damping for the string is available (for still more money...).

Perhaps this arm is not good for the 901 or other very stiff cartridges.  I don't know. But I would not be at all surprised if the best version of this arm could be set up to work quite well with the "right" cartridge, if set up by a high-demands, rigorous tweak.

One big problem with evaluating stuff like this is that most of the super-expensive "cult' gear gets bought by well-heeled Morons, which  dims hopes of relevant feedback.  In this case, however, arms are pretty much like cartridges, where you have to just bite the bullet and buy them and then eff with them for weeks or even months to figure out what they can do.  And who has 6k to throw at this thing on a flyer?  Probably not the people most likely to get the most out of the arm.

I would not be surprised if a certain percentage of these arms were purchased as modern art.


Paul S

12-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 222
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 17
Post ID: 12515
Reply to: 12514
Modern Art
fiogf49gjkf0d
....of selling "High" Fi:Well, I don't think so. When you want to sell something like "this" you need a kind of Religion.
The Religion here is: "I can hear the bearing(s) from other Arms and I can't stand it. That one has no bearing and you hear that"
But such a unit can't be cheaper than a serious calculated Arm, it has to be more expensive (Marketing 1.lesson in University).
But today, where we all have the Discussions about regenerating Energy, it is a very modern Design: when you don't want it anymore you can burn it in the chimney.

Ah, the mark up for "Dealers"? Of course it is MUCH higher than the one from the regular Arms.This supports Hype you know (Marketing, University, next lesson).
It is so simple. 
Btw. such an Armtube - when I remember 4 or 5 different kinds of exotic wood are in catalogue - you can get in music stores for about 45 Euros the piece. Add 10,-- for the drill.

The modern Art of High End today


Kind Regards
Stitch
12-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 12516
Reply to: 12514
“… the insane pricing of the Schroder arms”
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Paul S wrote:
It is intresting to me that despite the insane pricing of the Schroder arms, this is yet another case where it seems necessary spend as much as possible to get the best realization of the "key features" that might actually make the arm do what it is "designed to do".  Regarding the final price, who could imagine why Frank does not want to deal directly with High-End Audiophiles, and Lord knows what the middleman's mark-up is.  I doubt Frank is getting rich off this, but if he's doing OK, then good for him.

I do not know how “insane” Schroder arms are priced. I have heard that it is $1200 and I have heard $4200, I do not know or care how much exactly. I have no concerns about the mark-up. The cost of the tonearms nowadays is absolutely insane. I have seen arms for 9K and for $12K. The ridicules of those prices is not that they are too-high in absolute numbers but that the prices are absolutely disassociated from benefits and results.

A tonearm that arguably non-surpassable in term of Sound – the SME 3012 – use to cost $1000 years back and… it is ironically costs $1000 today. If one buys an arm that costs 2-3-5-10 times as much then would it add any user benefit to what SME 3012 has already able to do sonically? I am not sure it will. A new arms might offer “new “or updated technology and new topology but they do not really offer more advanced Sound then the 3012 does. Why the people in such case are motivated to pay for the tonearms 3, 4 or 10 times as much as the 3012 cost is beyond my understanding.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
berlinta
Posts 4
Joined on 02-11-2010

Post #: 19
Post ID: 12899
Reply to: 12516
Schröder tonearms, comments from the manufacturer
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear gentlemen,

My name is Frank Schröder and I'm the guy in the picture. It wasn't taken to show off anything, I actually noticed it after the fact.
I came across this thread by accident and even though I realize that I may be better off forgetting about what I just read, I prefer to address some of the points raised as most of what has been written about my arms in this thread is either incorrect or, at least, misleading.
And while it is not my goal to "convert" anyone, I ask to forego judging technical issues based on personal animosities, particularly when it wasn't me who commited an insult to any other forum member.

Now to the technique(measuring VTF with a Pesola spring gauge, 0-5gr) and technologies(arm bearing, armwand material) criticized.
The Pesola spring gauge is a decent back up, particularly when your digital scale was just dropped on a tile floor from 4 feet.
It does allow to set VTF with a repeatable accuracy of 0.05gr. Not good enough for some carts, but certainly good enough for the modified Denon DL 103 that we were using at the ETF. Thankfully my hand is very steady and the last couple of hundredths of a gram will always be set by ear using the VTF finetuning screw mentioned in one of the posts above.
But, most of the time, I do use a digital scale that's set up to measure exactly at record level.

It is not required to keep the magnets parallel nor does the net flux change when the arm is raised or lowered, be it to adjust VTA/SRA or because the arm needs to ride a warp. As long as there is enough clearance between the magnets(>0.25mm*), they will not touch each other.

The "contouring" of the magnets on all of the SQ arms(can be ordered for all arms) has the following effect: The restoring force generated by the low center of gravity of the counterweight is exactly counteracted by a defined instability in the magnetic bearing, but only for the vertical plane. The stability around the rotational(front to back) armwand axis is further increased at the same time(my arms do not behave like typical unipivot arms). As a result, the VTF doesn't change when altering VTA. The change in VTF has (nearly)nothing to do with the force required to "bend" the thread. That amounts to no more than 0,002p per 5° deflection. The thread is very soft/limp...
All arms that feature a center of gravity that lies below the vertical pivot point will exhibit a change in VTF when altering VTA, some to a far greater extent than any of my "standard" models. Same for arms with spring loaded VTF settings, albeit usually to a smaller degree(they normally are -close to-neutral balance designs: Ortofon RMGs, Breuer..)
Only if you use perfectly flat records exclusively(or a vacuum hold-down platter), the difference between a neutral- and a stable-balance arm won't be audible.
The VTF will change when riding a warp regardless since the arms inertia can't be overcome(some 80s servo-controlled arms came close).

For quite some time I have been using a thread material that exhibits NO stretch, The last batch that took some time to stabilize was used 5 years ago. But since most people on audio forums don't speak from personal experience, but rather tell everyone about their friend's experiences, it will be difficult to correct that now well established idea.

The damping doesn't change when altering VTA since the net flux in the gap remains the same up to the point when the two magnets touch each other(see above*). The magnets are not like "spoons"(but one could build the arm with "nesting" semispherical magnets)

Even though the arm is not rigidly connected to a mechanical "ground", the magnets create an attracting force of up to 12kg(~26lbs). This means that the cartridge needs to generate an enormous force to displace the arm assembly, or, to make it behave "loosely". The bearing which acts as an eddy current brake does add to the resistance to displacement because Eddy current induction is velocity dependent. The faster it moves(read: vibrates, not: moves across the record) the stiffer it appears.

I try very hard to avoid creating any "Voodoo" cult, my arms are not supposed to have a sound, but rather to allow the cartridge to do it's job as a transducer in an undisturbed fashion. That's why the arms are designed to deal with all the energy "fed" into the armwand assembly right there, with no dependency upon the mounting surface for energy dissipation or having to worry about impedance mismatches between arm and turntable base. Very little energy being generated or picked up by the turntable will find it's way back to the armwand and the cartridge.
The armwand/counterweight assembly is a transmission line allowing no energy to be reflected back to the cartridge.

Dear Stitch,
I've been building tonearms since 1976 and sold the first arms abroad in the late 80s. I don't post other than to correct obvious errors, I don't advertize in any printed or internet magazines, nor do I kiss up to any reviewer when they show up in our room at CES, RMAF, etc...
I believe you have posted elsewhere to express your dissatisfaction, even if it may be a second hand experience. Like before, all I can offer is advice if the customer isn't getting what he was hoping for. But 8 out of 10 audiophiles are like the proverbial men who don't read manuals. They know everything(because they've owned everything, but are never satisfied) and if they don't get that new toy to work well immediately, it's the toy that's flawed.
I don't sell to people on forums now and I sold arms before there was the Internet. People call me after listening to a system with a vinyl front end that included one of my arms. They liked what they heard, that's it. But I don't shy away from direct comparisons to other top contenders. I own or owned nearly all of them and certainly used all of them at some point.
Maybe we could get together someday and I can demo how easy it is to set up my arms. All it takes is to throw some "established" wisdom overboard and listen(no Voodoo involved, just physics).

Romy,
You may not get along with Mr. Weiss, but you may have greater respect for Stig Björge(Lyra), J.Limon(EMT), Masaki Ashizawa(Kondo), Heiner Martion(Martion Audiosysteme)... and literally dozens of manufacturers and professional musicians who use my arms.

Most of them use LOW compliance cartridges, with armwands with a fairly high eff. mass. And it makes a tremendeous difference if you just add mass at the headshell to increase eff. mass or whether you use that mass to increase stiffness AND internal damping accordingly.

The pricing is an old and somewhat boring topic. But I'll let you decide. My arms each take between 25 and 70 hours to make(from scratch). The dealer markup isn't higher, but rather slightly below industry standard. Still, any dealer/distributor makes way more money on each arm than I do. Add to that the patent fees, travel cost and time spent answering emails, doing the taxes... Cost of the raw material accounts for ~ 25% of the wholesale price(you do the math).  So, yes, I don't get rich, I get by. But I still love what I'm doing and if anyone doesn't, then there are many other choices from designers I highly respect: Allen Perkins, Mark Doemann, Micha Huber, Bill Firebaugh, Bob Graham, Franc Kuzma...

@ Stitch again,
I'm always fascinated by people who make a person or an item their enemy without ever having met their imagined foe. But where you get your information from beats me. I hope that you at least retained the ability to enjoy this hobby and maybe even music per se.

Lastly, to Romy:
I've owned and used SME 3012 arms in various iterations between 1979 and 2005 when I finally sold the last of what I still consider an Audio classic. But, as good as it still is, there are better arms out there. That doesn't mean it can't be the best choice for your system, for your preferences, your taste. It appears it is.

Good night and good luck,

Frank
02-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,287
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 12900
Reply to: 12899
Schröder tonearms by manufacturer?
fiogf49gjkf0d

 berlinta wrote:
People call me after listening to a system with a vinyl front end that included one of my arms. They liked what they heard, that's it. But I don't shy away from direct comparisons to other top contenders.

Frank, how in your view the listening to a system that a person like a person can recognize that it was explicitly tonearm that made the “liking” possible?

I disagree that VTF/VTA balance is critical on warped records. It is possible to handle it in your case by using curved magnet but do not forget that it has also disadvantage on flat records. Let pretend that you play a record with high dynamic range and the vertical acceleration was not consumed by cantilever/coil and got delegated to arm. A normal arm would react but in case of VTF/VTA-lock situation the arm will enter the zone of curved magnet and will try to maintain VTA despite that VTA was not changed. In this case the contra- VTA effort will be just a reaction to vertical acceleration inertia. Also, do not forget that curve magnet to accommodate the VTF/VTA-lock is VERY complicate and need to be done VERY precisely. Even if you have skills and knowledge how to do it then do not forget that the profile of the curve will depend…from the compliance of the given cartridge. So, you change a needle to softer or harder and all your precision of VTF/VTA-locking is out of proper balance, if it ever was in balance. So, I do not see any reason why the VTF/VTA-locking shall be ever enforced.

The most important, Frank, can you comment about alleged comment that your arm do not maintain operation parameters and it sound greatly vary contingent upon environmental conditions? I think if it’s so then it is a major design fault. I understand that some of your users, the Weiss-level retards, do not particularly understand or care that result they are getting. However, I can assure you that there are some LP playing folks out there who are serious about what they do and what they listen.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 1 of 4 (62 items) Select Pages:  1 2 3 4 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  90209  07-26-2004
  »  New  Bookshelf Horns..  How the menacingly-empty idiots design audio....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     3  25203  03-17-2010
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts