The interesting is that with a good local FM classical stations and a VERY good program director the historic listing event are alley three.  The audio-café is the same thing but there one can cash out the liquor license and a good cooking. The whole notion of café-style listening sessions might be even a lucrative business, at least for beginning what the idea might be presented to public as a “kinky” novelty. It might use the NPR model as well, I would not mind to sponsor them.

A few years back when some events lead me to an old dying guy with a full storage of thousands 15ips master dubs I was playing in my mind with a concept of having as a public establishment when the reels might be exposed to public. Interesting that it made me to think at that time what kind sound system this cafe would need to power a 2-4 thousands sq feet. It was very much not what Camerata does as Camerata more strikes me as very unfriendly space fully dedicated to a celebration of audio kitsch.

In an audio cafe I would look for a different level of sociable unity between playback and listening whole. Most likely I would hide and declared playback with plants and painted decorations. The Camerata feels like school auditorium, and even on this chip video it sounds horribly reverberating, this flat wall was a ”brilliant” solution, but as we know the WE wavers do not reflect… Anyhow, I more invasion the “right” design for an audio-café as garden with small “random” table then a cafeteria.

I wonder if the classical audio-café as a notion exists in today’s America.

Reggie, let to be clear that I use definition of kitsch in reference to audio installation. The Camerata as a cultural event is out of my criticism; in fact I applauded to what they did. The Camerata video did not bring me to the idea of perceiving the Camerata as kitsch, but what Joe showed up and posted those pictures with multi-layered of conflicting accumulation of speakers, amplifier … or better let call it “items” then was disappointed. Surely those “warehouse inhalation” is educational to study the audio archeology and somebody like Cogent‘s Steve Schell would have a multiple orgasm right there. However, for the people with applied interest in audio Results what I saw on the pictures appears too ridicules to take it serious. Who the hell need to dean a racing care with multiple steering wheels even though the each steering wheel change the car direction is different way? Does the fact the a designer put in a car 213 steering wheels means that he just do not know how to make the car to operate properly only with one wheel?  No, no, no, apparently the people who “could buy Romy the Cat with loose pocket money” have a different driving doctrine….

Another few point I would like to make. I did not mean the liquor license literally but used it allegorically. However, in what you say I said I see some inspiration in this direction. If the Classical Café Americana would exist then it might be fun to serve food in therewith accordance to the music was played. Do you know what kind soup comes along with the late Beethoven quartets? What king cake would be a better mach to Brahms played by Japanese orchestras? Or perhaps how to brew the real coffee that might be serves with Schubert's earlier lied performed during WW2? I am sure the guests would not mind to pay more juts for the opportunity to experience the selection of the “interesting cuisine”.

I have many ideas; some of them too advanced or too moronic what might be done in there but at all serve-serving entertaining and would hardly see any practical rendering.  Oh, yes, one more thing – there is no such a thing as “Russian food”…

yoshi wrote:

I don't know much about the US situation, but here's some realistic estimate to maintain such business in Tokyo.  Of course it depends very much on the size and location of the space, but let's assume it's in downtown Tokyo (I don't go into the size because that's a completely different issue in Japan and the US).  Beside the initial investment for re-decoration, furnitures, sound proofing and audio gears, I estimate the monthly rent as around $5000 if it's in a convenient downtown location.  I need at least one person handling the system and serving customers.  Depending on the open hours, what you serve and how many customers you expect, it can be 2 or more.  Let's say 2 employees, costing $12/hour, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week and it comes down to another $5000 almost.  There will be a cost of food/drink too.  Let's assume that I'm serving soft drinks and light food only and the cost of stock per month to be $3000 (this is bogus because it all depends on the number of the customers too).  Plus another couple of thousand for utilities, maintemance, etc.  So it comes down to minimum of $15,000 without my own profit. I can probably get away by charging $8~10 for a cup of coffee or soda in that kind of cafe.  To make $15,000, I need to serve 1,500 to 2,000 drinks.  That's 60~80 drinks/customers a day (EVERYDAY!).  This is a very, very tough (almost impossible) number for such a place in today's Tokyo, no matter what type of music I play, and it doesn't include any profit for myself!!  In '60s, those Jazz Cafe catered average of over 100 customers everyday. Of course, this is the calculation of the most basic model and the numbers would vary vastly if the settings are different (what I serve, whether I combine other venue like CD store, etc.). So unless I'm a multi millionare and need to spend some money for tax or whatever reason, I can't risk myself on it.  Is there an equivalent of Mr. Hwang in Boston area? Yoshi

Your “wrongness” derives from the fact that you are under a mistaken presumption that the Classical Audio Café shall be some kind of all week-long operation institution. Any person with any sane sense of business would tell you that it will never happen. Furthermore from the perspective of contain of materials that might be played in the Classical Audio Café of my version you would never find enough worthy materials of right sonic and artistic quality to sustain a week-long operation.

When I spoke about the Classical Audio Café I did not mean that a dally eatery but rather a recursive sequences of audio performing events in a given installation. How frequently you go to Symphony Hole? Well, your exposure to audio performing events shall be treated with the same respect, have the same price and to deliver to you equitable gratification as a live performing event. The difference is that an audio performing events is a guaranty of a great performance, I am taking about the supper performances….

I am sure no one interested to play in there the CD, LP or tapes that are available and know by heart. The whole idea is to play something unique that has a limited public exposure – so the source of material is super important. Think about it in context of those posts:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=10502

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=6917

I truly am taking about very different level of audio events then the rich guy bought a lot of WE, piled them up in a one room and invite Joe the Palmers to make phonographs with the “interior”. Do you know that Boston has Symphony Transcription Trust where they store master tapes of all performances of BSO from 1946 I believe. Many people who use to form in 70 and 80 with classical FM stations accumulated some amassing recordings, let to have THAT exposed. I am taking about having an access to THOSE archives and to play some very exiting concerts that never ever were re-broadcasted. It would be fun to put a very good sound reinforcement system in Boston Symphony whole and to try to play audio in there. Still, it is about the material. Look at the Harvard Film Archive.

http://hcl.harvard.edu/hfa/

It is a peaty elite establishment. They are not dally establishment and I do not think that they are hugely profitable. Still, 4 events per month in Classical Audio Café, with all bloom of upscale food, perhaps with period dress and pricey admission is might be interesting.

Romy wrote:

"When I spoke about the Classical Audio Café I did not mean that a dally eatery but rather a recursive sequences of audio performing events in a given installation."

I really like the Classical Audio Café concept.  Especially if it were open only occasionally, with top-tier "performances," and matching themes, such as food (great idea), perhaps without going overboard, some relevant artwork and a brief historic presentation which could be in the form of a handout or brief interjections from a passionate historian.  

Opening a stand-alone business every day would be a non-starter in the US from an economic standpoint (might work in Manhattan if you could find a large space free of charge).  Regardless, daily "performances" would become a bit more mechanized, less special than occasional ones.

More importantly, the Classical Audio Café could have a great cultural impact if we step out of the capitalistic framework.  How about linking up the concept with a university or several universities.  If you pitch the idea correctly there is some reasonable space available for free at universities and students willing to volunteer or work at a reasonable fee.  Here in Boston, the Berkeley School of Music, Harvard and Northeastern come to mind, each for different reasons.  The abandoned WGBH building Harvard recently purchased could house several cafes simultaneously...

Challenges would include promotion and logistics (lugging equipment around); as always, there is an abundance of students looking for these types of excuses to stay away from the library.  University catering teams could help with the food and beverages, and the university would keep any profits (I mean losses!).  

Getting reasonable sound would be an entirely different beast, however...

scooter wrote:

Getting reasonable sound would be an entirely different beast, however...

This is very much true and even it is an audio centric-site I kind of was avoiding this direction as I would like to keep the thread in musical section of this forum.

It is unquestionable that Sound itself would be very much a valuable commodity in the whole idea and it is unquestionable in my mind that to accomplish the noble sound the whole bucket of Macondo’s ideas shall be employed. The simpletons are looking at Macondo as at a collation of horns and driver and truly have no idea what they look at. They are accustomed that people in audio do brainless actions with no well-defined objective or intentions. Macondo is very far from it and whoever is done there is very much not an accident, as I stated in the end of the Macondo’s page:

“What is also important to mention is that Macondo Acoustic System is not a design that I advocate as a “winning design” (….). The Macondo concept is not the collection of drivers, horns and frames; it is not the specific implementation – you will not be able to see what Macondo System is all about until you understand the correlation between what it meant to do and what it does. The Macondo System is rather a concept, a winning sequence of conscious ceremonial realizations and actions that lead a person from taking a room and converting it into a sensible and involved medium of musical intercourse.”

So, in the proposed Classical Audio Café it shall be own “sequence of conscious ceremonial realizations and actions” and the “Macondo” over there might be very different – with respect to what that environment and that listening condition would demand.

That is one of the reasons why I found the Joe Roberts’ report about the Camerata so annoying and so under-qualified to take it seriously. It might be fun to sit with Mr. Hwang and to discuss what, why and how was done with respect of what was accomplished but in the   Joe’s cheerleading word there is no “what, why and how” but there is only the absurd hysteria about the Original Western Electric scenario. Joe is running with his unconditional WE obsession as it is some kind of universal audio dildo. I do not know if it comes from luck of sane experience or a lock of understanding of the objectives of the game – I think both. Therefore Joe’s “review” of Camerata installation from the level of 6Moon’s intelligence gives to Camerata a bad publicity in my eyes.

I would be very interested to see a playback installation in Boston Symphony Hall.  Playing in there the SoundMirror’s masters of greatest historic BSO performances would be VERY interesting experience; I wish BSO would envision this. The Symphony Hall is not ideal for audio environment and the playback installation would be removable that would make the cost of the playback double or triple and in a way compromised. A better location might be found…

A few years ago I read the Sviatoslav Richter’s dairies where he described he dally sensations from listening different performances. It was superbly interesting but the most remarkable in that was the he recognized in his comments absolutely no difference between live performances he attended and recordings. I think that this concept might be taken a bit further…

The Cat

Got emails with a few more videos that were shot a few days back in the Camerata music cafe. Upon watching them there are three “discoveries” I made about the musical café idea”

Somebody sent me a link with the Seoul gentlemen who have those piles of WE gear.

http://blog.silvercore.de/blog/2013/02/01/man%c2%b4s-cave/#more-739

It is interesting warehouse-like looking space that more reminds me Home Depot then listening environment. Anyhow, looking at the pictures the feeling that I got was that all those pile of equipment are not truly operational. I am sure they are functional but not look to be really operational.  The guy who owns all of it obviously has money and for him would not be a problem to build one listening room for himself where he has one single  set of his collection where he would listening his music.  I do not see it happens. The warehouse depicted at the picture is not perfect listening environment and not particularly pleasant. So, were is the creme de la creme of that WE setup and where is the author’s expression of audio?  There is no doubts that WE  did some interesting steps but there is a huge difference between collecting horns, drivers and amplifiers and be able to make all of it to work as one well organized artistic impressions. The system owner then need to learn how to consume that artistic impressions but that is a whole another story….

The point that I would like to make is that from the images I have seen I do not see anything else in that Seoul gentlemen then WE gear collector, or the person whose audio interests exists primary to feed the interests of marketing whores of Joe Roberts types. I might be wrong but truly do not see how a person who has his own advanced objectives in sound reproduction and has means to address it would not go for it. It would be like a woman who loves shiny stones but who buy diamonds and then cover them with roofing compound.

Romy the Cat wrote:

.... to feed the interests of marketing whores of Joe Roberts types..... The Cat

... all that is based on High end Show Germany, Munich with the Silbatone demos (Joe Roberts, WE Horns...) there you can find all those DIY Idiots from Germany who think they are the center of the world. There is another link available in Germany, to make the Story short, Mr. Barske (Editor from a German analog Magazine), Mr. Schroeder..Mr. Schick (Both Tone Arm "Manufacturers" or whatever) and so on. You saw them all in the Silbatone room with Mr. Roberts. Anyway, Schick and Schroeder built Turntables for that Demo, probably that was the reason why the Demo was noticeably better with digital source....

Wojtek wrote:

Stich , your own complains about aforementioned arms (Schroeder mostly)  was "no highs , no lows " . Pretty primitive way to judge a product from a sophisticated listener like yourself. Since you seem to have unlimited budget , get the arm (I'm pretty sure Frank will loan you one for free ) and do a page write up instead of relying on third hand opinions. PS . Setting  a good analog based demo is little more difficult than digital one , you know that very well , so why the bias??