Michaelz wrote:

Does this mean one may one day get free power from the neighbors?

Well,

The most miserable things about electricity that you never know what to do. I had in past different filters and mny imaginable power gismos, a number of isolated transformers, balanced transformers, regenerators…

For a couple years I was running five PS Audio P300 Power Plants: 4 P300 drove the 4 Lamm’s ML2.0 and one P300 drove the front end.  The Power Plants did OK job but when the electricity was good then the bare mains “sounded” better then the Power Plants. Also, the problems with electricity problems are not constant and sometime the mains begin to pump that “white noise”… This “white noise”… makes anything transparent to it and goes through anything, including the Power Plants. Eventually I stopped to use Power Plants somewhere in the beginning of 2002 as I recognized that Power Plants has own sound: upper mid range become slippery and too artificial and the entire harmonic effect of symmetric power did not make me too happy.

I have some guys that I know who build quite serious dedicated studios and home installations. They are radical enough and their solutions for powering home-level installation are starting from $50K-$60K. So, they suggested me that “nothing works” besides a complete physical decoupling from the power grid (they use own diesel-generators and it is what I would do if I did not live in city). I have 2 other solutions of good decoupling (with no butteries) and perhaps I will try them in future but they are hassles…

Frankly, I have no answer and no good recipe for power solution for myself as now. I ordered a CleanPower unit to try. It has some interesting futures (bypass, no balance operation, less magnetics) but I have no idea at this point how it sounds and if will not dive into “steps” at heavy load…

In your case Jessie, I do not think that 50Hz make a bid difference vs. the US 60. With P300 I use to run everything at 90Hz but it was not really a big deal. However during my experiments with European electronic I did fund that my 120V/200V ADDITIONAL TRANSFORMER did crap sound. I had a few transformers – all of then sound differently and all of them sound worth then what I did no use them. In US we have 110V but our power lines to our buildings are 220V, as least to my building. I use to have 220V feed and it was quite good. I do not know if it is so but I presume that European distributor transformer might have two secondaryes of 110V connected in series. If so then you might use one of your dedicated feed from juts a half of the secondary… BTW, if you go to this direction then be advised about that very ridicule phenomena that I have experienced…

BTW, the Jessie,

since you will be apparently mingling with you PP converting it into Euvro (Romynism form European Voltage) then you might find the comments of the PS Audio owner worth attention. Sure, not when his older PP is archaic product he is egger to make those comments. I never head him in response to the European fool-reviewers drool about P300 post any manufacture comments stating the their observations are worthless because their units used the faulty sounding transformers… Wait until the Premier MK2 become available and …suddenly we learn that the first Premier had some “known sound inflicting flows that we have fixed in the MK2” It reminds me as a few years ago Lamm was instructing his customers that if you buy his amplifier more then 5 years ago then you need to sell it and but a new one because the  parts that he used in a few years of being exploited are losing ability to comply with his “theory of hearing”…..

Anyhow here is what PaulMC said:

*** The P300 European version relied on an output transformer to raise the voltage on its output from 120 to 230. This transformer wasn't the best thing in the world for the system and it led to some colorations in the sound. One of our goals with the PPP was to eliminate the need for this step up transformer which, indeed, we did

Ref: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/psaudio/messages/1/10549.html

Romy,

Thanks for your thoughts.

Very interesting your idea to take 110v from half the secondary straight off the pole... I am trying to confirm with the electric company that this might be possible... Otherwise I've got some climbing gear and a volt meter...

Thinking in another direction : 

Is there a rapport between the step-down factor (turns ratio) and the passage of garbage via induction? For example, does a large turns ratio filter out more or less of the nasties?

I know transformers can alter the way our equipment produces sound, but we do accept big crude step-down transformers outside the house all the time... Step-down transformers at the substation are shared by an entire town, and the transformer up on that pole outside your house is shared by several neighbors.

I wonder how far we could get from the nastiness of the grid by simply using a private multi-stage chain of (like 5) large de-coupling transformers followed by good filtration and possibly an AC oscillator...???

Back to Eurovolts :

As mentioned in my previous post, we Euro audio users (slight cringe there!) are dealing with a lower oscillating frequency (50Hz) than in the US… What I did not mention is that due to the higher 230v, we also accept more peak-to-peak amplitude. About twice the amplitude in fact. Combine this with the 16.5% slower cycling, and we are giving our equipment a bumpier ride.

Is this a good enough reason to supply audio equipment with 110v/60Hz? I don't know, but (all other parameters being equal) I have yet to be solicited for the sprinkling of a visitor's ashes on this floor (I did once make such a promise to a musician visitor back in the US).
 
Regarding my planned experiment mentioned in the above post (supplying the P1200 with a balanced 220v mains supply, by using a pair of hefty step-down 220v to 110v input transformers) : I need to think more about this, and about the relative phase of each of the two sines as delivered by the pair of input transformers.

Regarding PaulMC :

Where the Euro-spec P300 had a special output transformer, I suspect the Euro-spec P1200 used a special input transformer to step down the input voltage to 110v. This is confirmed by the fact that on the 220v settnig, my US model P1200 will not accept European 220v if it is all coming in on one leg (immediately causes the circuit breaker to trip). It will however accept 220v if supplied as is the case in the US, where it is divided between the two legs (see previous post for my interpretation of the 220v switch on the P1200).


jd*

BTW, Jessie,

I have another solution for you if you have some extra space and… distance….. It is what I will do after I became a boring US suburban habitant… (BTW, it is not my RTD invention (Real Time Decupling) that implied in the mid of the thread – that invention is still “deeply classified”… :-)

So, what you might try is to get 5kW AC generator. They are not really large; it will be approximately 20-30” long. You might see one on the picture:

http://www.northern-lights.com/PDFs/brochure_pdfs/M673LD2.pdf

The generator is the cylindrical object of the 1/3 size on the left (you do not need a motor). There is a large availability of all kind of AC generators, and they cost from a couple to a few hundreds dollars at many surpass stores.

Then direct couple the generator with any AC motor. Running the motor from your dirty AC power lines you will be spinning the generators and take from the generators absolutely physically decoupled electricity, free from any problems of the grid (noise, distorts and so on). You might very easily stabilize the rotations of the AC motor and by planning with the modes (load, rotation, stator magnetizing force, frequency and etc) of the generator you might tune a perfect sound for your given setup. The beauty of this solution that sine you found it one it will NEVER change as you are not at mercy to anything that happens in the power grid.

Be advised that the good contemporary generators and motors have near 95% efficiency and they are really quiet nowadays…. Still I would pit the thing somewhere in a dog hour or in a basement…. You might go even for small 1-2KW generators… Perhaps the will do fine as well…

If I was in the audio business then I would no doubt try to make in China some kind quiet running devise, size of the P600, that would mechanically regenerate the REAL NEW clear power....

Romy the Cat wrote:

One of the things that solicited me to try the APS unit was the assurance of the APS guy (Richard) that what I run ASP unit from internal battery + regeneration vs. the plugged in wall + regeneration ….I should hear no difference in Sound. From what he said I can make ONE of the following concussions: 1)The APS unit is the real God-send thing the does properly decouples the load from the mains. 2)The APS unit produces so much crapy noise in the regeneration mode that it overrides the nose of the bad mains 3)The APS guys who tried if are deaf or are clueless what to listen while they are listening 4)The APS guy juts lie. Well, will see what happens….

This year my May’s ceremony included the APS PurePower 1050 regenerator.

Look at the last pager of this thread: http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=4480

I got it today; I put it into the playback and here is the very short register about my initial experiences. I write it up not only for you guys but also for myself: to organize and to log my thoughts. I am not making any conclusion but juts the pass the testimony of the observations.

The electricity today is, thanks God, horrible so the PurePower will have the things to do. I played only digital (what else is necessary) and the only one recording: the last movement of Pathétique by NPoR. If the “Adagio Lamentoso” was OK then the Third movement. Uselessly it never reach the needs to play the Third movement as the crappy electricity in the “Adagio Lamentoso” converts the sound of the second violin section into the buzz of zillion mosquitoes and the cello section into the fart of submerged turtle …. the  game typically over as is…

My CD playback in my elecro-summer configuration: TL0 and Bidat run from P300 (with removed common mode filter), the super Melquiades run from own dedicated lines, untreated; and the Preamp run form own untreated dedicated line – unfortunately it is imposable to use P300 on analog gear as it fucks up sound more then bad electricity (making bass rubber-like, thining upper MF, screw up harmonics and many other negative things).

So, the first thins I did to plug the PurePower to dedicated line and run preamp from it. It was very nice. The sound was not ruined as it would be as I run the Preamp from the P300. In fact it was very pleasant and very delicate. Then I switched the DAC and CD transport to PurePower. Absolutely wonderful result! The dynamic not even compare to P300 with phenomenal articulation and with no detectable impact in tone anywhere across the entire range, the bass is as it should be and not “intensification” of sound anywhere. The stings are very clean, very vivid and…. Did I mention the dynamics?! It is kind of very dynamic and bold but very elegant and very smooth and with not lost sounds popping up here and there – very-very pleasant. I added 6dB on the Water Drop tweeter – not problems – not negative impact. The P300 sounds in this context very pale. Still, subjectively with all colorations that P300 has it has more noise rejection then PurePower as among the stunning dynamic and verbalization elegance I still can here some very minor artifacts of the bad electricity – however those artifacts looks like do not impact sound in negative way.

 The PurePower show up the 2% or full load and I decided to pull up the power cord from the PurePower. The use is switched to the butteries on fly and… the sound practically did not change… extremely cool. I do feel that from the butteries it was a bit softer but at near negligible amplitude.  Frankly speaking I did not expect it – very positive and very promising effect.

Being pleased and enthusiastic I plagued the super Melquiades to the PurePower. The amps went off on, the PurePower handled it well. The both Super Milqs (juts 3 channels for now not 6) at this cruse plate current pushed the PurePower to 70% of load. The sound went completely to toilet. It is absolutely grey, severally compressed, with absolutely no dimensions - flat like the Berlin Wall from the East side during the 70s – juts horrible… I plugged it back to the deded wall a few times – the effect the same – with my power amps this thing is unusable.  Switching back to PurePower the front-end  - very-very nice!

Hm, I do not know what to say… I will try to masseur the PurePower later on and what is going on…

There is a big industry of the rotary frequency converters or as they called ‘Cascade converters”. They convert 50, 60, 400Hz or whatever is necessary. There are also the 60Hz-60Hz converters that specifically designed to provide a complete isolation between the load and input power, eliminating voltage fluctuations, switching transients and any line noise. Georator does it and a few others…

The point is that such a devise for a couple to a few kW, single phase, made specifically to operate at low speed, with magnetic suspension instead of bearing is really a table-top size devise and it could be as quiet as something that could be positioned in another room. I am sure that that devises ease somewhere for labs purposes and could be bought used for a $200. I would love to try something like this….

Romy the Cat wrote:

I did not measure the distortions…

Anyhow, the APS people were quite cooperative and they told that they would need a few days to figure out what is going on. I did not feel that the people what whom I spoke were too technical, neither I am, so let them to get in touch with their designer personal.

I proposed to the APS guy that it is highly unlikely that the wave generator itself cares about the load, neither the amps. It is possible that the filters that sit behind the class D-amps or perhaps something else might be tuned to be optimized to a very specific power load. It would be great if they eventually will tell me that I need to open the unit and to adjust some kind of variable resistor R34r to set the since wale and distortion level to a correct shape under the targeted load.

If this thing will be able to deliver at 70% load the same Sound that that it does at 2% load then it will be a phenomenal solution for the electricity problems.

A few weeks back I created an account at AA’s PS Audio forums. I was uploading there a few posts and had no problems. I presumed that the sponsorship of the PS Audio is kind of shielding me from the idiocy of the assholes what runs AA site.  Everything was fine there… up the last night. The last nigh, when I posted my log about the APS devise and reported that at 2% of power consumption APS was more interesting then P300  “something” had happened in the PS Audio forums with my account. I posted today at PS Audio forums a question/comment about the idiosyncrasies of measurement of AC polarity in the symmetries power lines (something that is completely irrelevant to the whole APS saga) and my post was deleted. Hm, fascinating….

It look like the PS Audio got the stink of that smell that I LOVE in Audio the most… I wonder when all those threaten industry freaks will understand that people like me absolutely do not give a shit about their little cronies agendas: I care less what “product” is better or worst and all this marketing-publicity craps could be wrapped and sold to the audio-morons. Make better sounding audio and it is all that mater!

Anyhow, I wish the PS Audio guy return the context of my post to me before he deleted it: I would repost it on my site as the subject is still is reminding not answered.

While the APS guys trying to figure out why this unit can not handle power (which more likely involved a phone call to China :-) I decided to give another try across everything, repeating my last listening, this time in relaxed environment with different music and with some sense not obligation to try the unit but rather enjoyment.

I made some observations that I feel worth to share.

1) The more I load to APS the worst it sounds. The buffer on my preamp, DAC and CD transport it almost OK, but if I load juts one of any component then it sound even better. Om the scope the idle APS unit has a near perfect wave and it become to be twisted even if I load 15W. Not good at all! Still up to 100W the sound is till fine, and then become bad becoming bad at 200W. BTW, I was loading the resistive load (!!!) With the Milq it is absolutely unusable as it was yesterday. BTW, Melquiades with it’s input choke filter everywhere is an exemplary load for APS unit – much better and much easer load then any other commercial load that the APS use even have seen out there.

2) I was a wrong in the following post:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/psaudio/messages/1/10526.html

I was not wrong about the “White Noise”. I was wrong identifying the reasons for it. Now I know the reasons. The “White Noise” did not go through the PP as I accused and was not because the isolation but was due to the fact that my preamp (for years, since 1999-2000 whet I begin to use P300) never was running form regenerators (I never was able to run any analog front end from PP too much sonic problems). With the APS I was actually able to run preamps from regulator and the “White Noise” is gone. Do not forget that the APS unit is much less decoupled form the mains then P300. So, it was not the UHF from the power line where going through (unless the APS’s output low-pass become handy to deal with the “White Noise”….

3) Sound of the VERY little loaded APS unit is extremely good, good, even up to the point of being tacky. In all audio I have seen the only one thing that did the similar trick – jack up dynamic range without to much touching other things and particularly the harmonics – it was Expressive Technology Transformers. Those few what heard my playback in my room would understand my next statement, my enthusiasm about it and how valuable it is: the APS does not screw up bass. Alleluia!!!

4) I would not that I do detect a very very very very very minor thinness in the upperbass and lover midrange region. I did added 1/3dB in my Fundamentals Channels and I feel it does fine now. I could live without it as well.

5) Apparently these little zigzags (20kHz) on the traces above, the residuals of the D-amps switching, do not affect sound.

6) It was eventually a magnificent solution for preamp. I trued in my room since P300 probably 8 preamps – not of them were agree with P300. The APS swallowed my preamp with such a effectiveness that only that was worth the price of admission. In fact it is VERY funny to test the active Placette. It draws a very little current has large CRC filter and a large for given current capacitors. So, what I disconnect the buffer form the power source it runs perfectly fine for quite a number of 5 seconds before collapsing. So, I have my dedicated feed, APS and P300 sitting right next to each other and I can switch them with no interruption in sound quality. So, sticking the Placette buffer into the dedicated lines (essentially the raw mains) I have the “White Noise”, some compression, and brutal upper range. Sticking the buffer into the P300 it sounds like someone dipped music into motor oil. Sticking the Placette into the APS made me not wiling to make this experiment again. Sing the brass opening of the last movement of the Dvorak’s New Wold…

7) OK, the price of admission. I begin to wonder about it. The unit is very large (running completely cold BTW) and frankly speaking pricy. How about the rest of my digital (AD/DA), how about my 3 phonostage, do I need to buy another APS unit….? Yep, you right! If the APS guys will not be able to detect what is going  on and why it dies with power then I would hardly feel that it worth to have this devise to run juts my fa few itemps of my ront end. From a different perspective I would like do not loose the Sound that I got from the APS. So, perhaps if the 150W is max that is possible to get from APS units then I need to harass these guys with request to come up with MUCH smaller, much less expensive 150W, no stupid buttery backup devise. But once again… who knows: if they would do 300W unit then would it men that it will sound good only at no more then 10% of it load?

Maybe you already said it and I am just too tired to follow, but does the APS do OK with "component interaction"?  This has been another problem for me, where the thing does alright with one front end component but gets worse with two or more, and sometimes this has been true when two or more components were plugged in but only one of them was turned on.  It got me to the point where I now unplug anything I am not using.

And how often does it happen that a manufacturer will claim that only one feature has been changed, like lowering the power rating or deleting the batteries, but use seems to suggest other changes --- for thee worse, of course?

But you have to be fairly pleased to get anything more from the Placette?

Best regards,
Paul S

The load that I used everywhere was pure restive load. Not good at all…. Also it would be worth to note that the unit with increase of load better filter the switching frequency of the D-amp.

Well, the oscillator itself does not care of course about the load. The class D-amp usually has very little distortion as well. The wave on the scope bends quite aversively for a few seconds what the load changes and it takes 2-3 seconds to stabilize. So, I presume that the people out there who would use the PurePower with class AB amps that drown all time different current should have a lot of fun…

I consulted with Dima and he told me a lot about design of this unit and he proposed a half dozen of problems that might cause it, naming the most likely the problem with the AC filter that the APS has after the digital amp. We discussed a lot of the idea of this filter and we agree that it is very hard, if any possible, to make this filer to operate properly with different load.

Theoretically it would be possible, if I own the unit, to open it up and to rebuild the failing filter for a very precise current that my entire playback would drew, perhaps even making the experiments with the type of the filter and the order.  But I am not in the business to build the damn regenerators. The entire idea to pay $2.500 to APS people is not to have a $3-worth oscillator with $40-worth off the self digital amplifier but rather to have out of box complete sonic solution. If need to rebuild the out filter then what I am doing?

Frankly I am very much egger to hear from the APS folks that I need to look at the unit and count some capacitor or coils at some kind of board and then we learn that one coils or caps or power resistors from the output filter was missing. It would perfectly explain the ringing of the filter during and after the switching. The fun would be if we fix the ringing and tame the sinusoid shape … but loose the quality of Sound…

Antonio J. wrote:

Imagine you buy a cheap&nbsp;professional SS power amp. One of those AB or D class ones which can be bridged to provide 1,5, 2Kw or more. Imagine you feed it with a perfect sinusoidal tone generator set at 60Hz at its signal input,&nbsp;and that you adjust&nbsp;the&nbsp;tone generator's&nbsp;output to read 120V at the speakers output of the power amp. Then all you'd need is feed your gear from the speakers output of that amp. You even could configure this set up to have balanced power if you wish to, and also "fine tune" by slightly varying output voltage and AC frequency within the generator settings.<BR>It's not my idea, a friend of mine thought it. It might work, who knows. My major concern has to do with the impedances the power amp could handle and the input impedance of your gear at its PS.

What you propose has already been made by PS Studio. What I found would be more perspective for someone what would like to do is to make what the PurePower does.

There is a huge army of Class-D amps, for consumer audio and for car audio. You can buy a completed built amp that does 1500W for near $100. It is very small. Add to this amp a 50-60Hz oscillator (it costs nothing) and you have already a good regenerator. Now all that you need to go it to tune your out AC filter for you given load and it is very likely that you get a very seriously performing power source. Sure you do not need any batteries and all that crap….

The PurePower bypass is very good functionality, I tested it and it works wonderful. Still it is possible do not use it if to do even for more powerful class-D amp. There are plenty of class D amps that can pump 25-30A into 1R and it is more then enough, Thos amps are at sub $200 range…  In the worst case it also possible to soften the start of the power amps…

In fact I see quite a good opportunely for someone to see the power regenerator kits where an end user would be able to optimize the parameter of the output AC filter to the amount and the type of the specific load. It might be the direction that I go if the APS folks will not find what it wrong with my PurePower unit. The PurePower Sonic results what low load is used are a very good illustration that the no-transformers, class-D approach might work out very-very well. I am sure that we will see more and more units like this…. With one exception: it is remotely possible that any of class-D amps will suffer from the “do not load me syndrome”… Who knows, will see…

Romy the Cat wrote:

The PurePower Sonic results what low load is used are a very good illustration that the no-transformers, class-D approach might work out very-very well. I am sure that we will see more and more units like this…. With one exception: it is remotely possible that any of class-D amps will suffer from the “do not load me syndrome”… Who knows, will see… Rgs, The caT

TonyB wrote:

I did not study PurePower in detail. They have 36V DC batteries. Do they use step up transformer after Class D amplifier or do they create high voltage DC supplies and then run the Class D amplifier from these high voltage power supplies?

Frankly speaking I do feel that they need to rewrite the text in their web site as their arguments and their presentation in some cases is laughably not serious. However, in one spot they state that the PurePower is the “transformerless” AC Regenerator. Also, in the picture they clearly show off the brand-labeled buttery of 12V… so I presume that they run 12V to 120V with no transformers. I do not know how many gain stages…

There are also some reviews out there that try to give some idea what the PurePower does but as many people know I value the industry reviewers’ opinions or their judgment no more then a fart of a while in ocean as a contribution to the Global Warming…

So, I really do not know what the PurePower does internally. I wish they explain it in details but they are perfectly within their rights not to do it. As I have written somewhere above: the irony was that when I decided to try the PurePower I was not solicited by the fact that it has some kind of kinky internal guts but rather their Marketing Director’s comment: “It does sound different (better) then other regenerators and I not really do not know why it does so.” Also, he assured me that I will not hear a lot of differences between running the unit from the wall vs. running it from butteries. In both of his claims he turned out to be accurate. In his first comment he was accurate so far only while the PurePower unit has no more then 10% of it’s full load.