GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site

04-26-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	41
Post ID:	26131
Reply to:	26129

Supra Cables.

Paul,

Not the company I've referenced before (the one I forgot the name) but I just remembered of `Supra Cables` from Sweden. I had a look and their connectors are "24K Gold plated Copper". Apparently they are slightly cheaper (in Europe, about 25 EUR) than DH Labs (in USA); however Supra also sell BULK, what may make them cheaper.

http://www.jenving.com/products/connectors-17

This is their distributor in USA: https://www.sjofnhifi.net/

If you know someone working with import/export you may try to buy FOB. In this case you would probably need to buy more than you need but nothing will hold you to sell them on Ebay later.

EDIT: you may also want to have a look on SineWorld. I don't have idea of their prices and the website don't tell anything about the the material (if copper or what) but their stuff is usually well made.

EDIT_2: based on some of their other connectors (I was looking RCA) the actual conductor is likely to be phosphor-bronze.

Their dealer in America is in Canada.

Cheers! Alex

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

04-26-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,685
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	42
Post ID:	26132
Reply to:	26131

Planning Vs. Shopping, Sequence

I like to "build things in my mind", then try to see if I can find them ready made. If I can't, I either rationalize a compromise or build it myself. I like to think I would dump fixed notions fast in cases where solid evidence refutes me. Ockham's Razor still cuts both ways.

Paul S

04-26-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	43
Post ID:	26133
Reply to:	26132

Viborg.

Paul,

I found it Viborg, they offer in fact pure copper (non-plated) connectors too. No idea about the price, and they don't have the "chuck locking" the Supra PPSL have.

EDIT: European prices in HERE.
EDIT_2: btw, what is this thing about rhodium?

Cheers! Alex.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

04-27-2021

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drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #:	44
Post ID:	26134
Reply to:	26129

Low mass RCA connectors

Paul S wrote:
Plenty of people I know hoarded the old, cheap-o Radio Shack connectors, figuring their light weight more than offset the crappy metal they're made of.

Yes, I'm one of them! I love those Radio Shack connectors. It's easy to work with delicate solid wires without heavy connectors bending and breaking everything. It's my experience that when dealing with silver, copper and other metals, that the amount of the circuit path that is made of a particular metal is proportional to its influence on the sound. So, those low mass connectors worked just fine.

Adrian

04-27-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	45
Post ID:	26135
Reply to:	26133

Viborg.

xandcg wrote:
Paul,

I found it Viborg, they offer in fact pure copper (non-plated) connectors too. No idea about the price, and they don't have the "chuck locking" the Supra PPSL have.

EDIT: European prices in HERE.
EDIT_2: btw, what is this thing about rhodium?

Cheers! Alex.

I've been using Viborg for all DIY cords. Very nice quality. Don't really buy this super pure Cu marketing. Nor rhodium.

Cheers,
Jarek

04-28-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	46
Post ID:	26136
Reply to:	26135

Wireworld Pro Audio.

Jarek,

Thank you for your input. This is nice to have a somehow a list of good connectors.

Today I found Wireworld Pro Audio[1] sell "Silver-clad OFC" connectors (they call plugs). I never had any contact with Wireworld products but their products seem well made; however, apparently, no RCA (perhaps not advertised). Also, I failed to find prices on the internet.

EDIT: Well, the regular Wireworld also advertise connectors.
EDIT_2: Their have their own store but just available in USA, but I used some proxy and had a look on connectors prices, they vary. RCA cost from US$12 to US$60 and they don't put all specifications; however they tell what Wireworld cable use that plug, and looking on the cable specification (apparently, this is not very clear) they all have copper conductors, some plated with silver others with gold.

May be a good deal for those living in USA.

[1] roughly same "audiophile" Wireworld but for professional audio.

Best regards,
Alex.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

04-29-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,685
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	48
Post ID:	26138
Reply to:	26137

Part and Parcel of Copper Parts

The thing is, none of these parts are "homemade" (or, VERY few of them are...), rather they are made by people/companies who are all about "manufacturing". It's said that copper just doesn't lend itself to machining or bending (manufacturing), and it starts corroding immediately. That's all it takes, from a manufacturing standpoint, to make "pure copper" a non-starter for parts. The plating on copper parts assumes people don't want to/won't deal with the corrosion, and/or it mitigates wear. I think silver is more friendly, also very expensive. I think there's plenty of mis/disinformation about "pure copper" floating around out there. Like most things these days, it seems parts for connectors come from just a couple manufacturers, and others have their names stamped on the (sometimes slightly modified) generic parts.

Paul S

04-29-2021

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	49
Post ID:	26139
Reply to:	26138

Red copper

IIRC, Viborg uses what they call red copper, which is probably red brass - a high Cu content brass, quite a bit harder than pure Cu. Visually and under a few strokes of a metal saw (I wanted to check if this is not a plating) behaves indeed like a 'hard copper'. I protect the surfaces I can reach using Paul's method (I 'hate' you for that Paul, takes so much time): jewellery polish (me by hand) - isoprop cleaning - dielectric grease (silicon based DC-4)

Cheers,
Jarek

04-29-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	50
Post ID:	26140
Reply to:	26138

No need to build in-house.

Paul,

I don't know anything about the background oft these companies but the fact copper corrode during the building process isn't a drama. Ships hulls are mainly built of steel with the plates rusted during the building phase[1], and this isn't a problem at all but just need inspect the depth of the corrosion and blast-clean before primer/painting.

Also, the fact the connectors come from a few manufactures doesn't necessary means they are all the same but the same tooling were used. Provided the involved players are not lazy/cheap/crooks this is all about design/specifications/requirements. If you design a custom screw now and bring it to a screw industry in China, it will just take to discuss the price/quantity to have them built to your exactly design/specifications/requirements, often in a few days.

That said, if these companies are so "garage" sized they can't ever do that, because the minimum amount requested by the manufacturer is too high ($) for them, this is another story.

Of course the ability to build in-house bring a lot of advantages since testing the design is a lot of easier and can be done faster, and this is also one of the main reasons "everyone" is in China. This is quite easy to have things bespoke built, tested, and released fast without the need to acquire every piece of equipment necessary to build the final product.

[1] actually usually before since they tends to be stored outside, often for years.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

04-29-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	51
Post ID:	26141
Reply to:	26139

Pure Red Copper.

N-set wrote:
IIRC, Viborg uses what they call red copper, which is probably red brass - a high Cu content brass, quite a bit harder than pure Cu. Visually and under a few strokes of a metal saw (I wanted to check if this is not a plating) behaves indeed like a 'hard copper'. I protect the surfaces I can reach using Paul's method (I 'hate' you for that Paul, takes so much time): jewellery polish (me by hand) - isoprop cleaning - dielectric grease (silicon based DC-4)

If Viborg is following the market standards and I think so, "Red Copper" or "Pure Red Copper" is Cu2O, the first stage of the Copper Oxide. But I don't remember of anything about red copper on Vigorg literature except, may be, on power cables.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

04-30-2021

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,685
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	53
Post ID:	26143
Reply to:	26140

Drama vs. Economics

Alex, whatever the standards and/or expectations are for steel plate for ship yards, customers for electrical connectors don't want them to start out corroded, starting at the wholesale/distributor level. So, manufacturers don't want an inventory of their finished products corroding, either, and they go out of their way to be sure this doesn't happen. I don't know the specifics of working with copper for the "hi-fi market", but it's easy to see there's not much in the way of pure copper connectors available, and I suppose this is because it's more profitable to work with and sell copper alloys ("eutectic" copper). Hard to believe there is a profitable yet un-tapped market for pure copper hi-fi connectors.

Best regards,
Paul S

11-28-2021

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xandcg

Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014

Post #:	54
Post ID:	26587
Reply to:	26143

I give it up.

So, I give up of trying this cable construction experiment. I found some who already did a test with a similar construction and once a higher shielding material was placed it killed the cotton in oil magic, and it sounded like a "regular' shielded cable.

Thanks for the advise too.

Btw, Viborg has now pure solid silver power plugs.

E.g. http://www.viborgaudio.com/en/Product/a/chanpin/jianzhusheji/2021/0923/377.html

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

01-01-2025

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,685
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	56
Post ID:	27857
Reply to:	26840

Degrees of Boring?

No sense letting this cable thread languish, if speaking of cables. I just want to qualify remarks I made about new cables I added in 2024, namely Moray James S/PDIF and Audio Sensibilities Impact phono cables, and I also want to get Bud Purvine off any metaphorical hook regarding his Litz cables. To start, I used the famous Belden Synapse S/PDIF for years. It is a very intelligent HF filter that is no-doubt a Godsend for many CD listeners. It is so good at what it does that probably everyone should at least try it. Anyway, I swapped that for Acoustic Revive S/PDIF after the most recent John Wright "upgrades" to my DAC, in order to get "more" from my CDs, and it worked fine. I sent the Belden to Wojtek in exchange for Polish Vodka... Since then, no surprise, tuning in to the Loudpeakers, I heard things I had not heard before, and part of my efforts at fine tuning involved dealing with system-specific issues via front-end cable swaps. For some time I have been of the mind that I do not want "personality" from certain parts, including those cables. I no longer want "life from my cables", as I get that from my sources, and all the cables need to do is pass it along. It is not the case for me that these cables are actors reading a script, rather I am to the point where I just want the information, and I will ruin it to my tastes with other system elements. I am actually happy with my idea of "boring cables" at this time. I can tell you, if they sucked the Life out, they would be gone in a heartbeat. I did not list these cables in this cable thread before because I am pretty sure that what I get from them is "system specific". As ever with cables, YMMV, and I call them "boring" to emphesize this point.

Paul S

01-01-2025

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	57
Post ID:	27858
Reply to:	27857

It is exactly what I am talking about.

"I used the famous Belden Synapse S/PDIF for years. It is a very intelligent HF filter that is no-doubt a Godsend for many CD listeners"

Yes that is the beast I was referring to. But here's what my "socialist" thinking kicks in. When they made this cable they had absolutely no idea what they did as is most of their consecutive digital cables were garbage. Your description said it acts as a very intelligent HF filter, in my view, absolutely accurate. It filters forever should not be there and let whatever need to be there to pass. Whatever was done there in terms of filtration literally cause no money. So, why somebody do not do research figure out how that Belkin cable does it and make all other digital cables to implement this functionality. Not to build super expensive zillion dollars cost visually looking like Gucci bag, cables which have absolutely no beneficial impact to listener, but they actually cable which work. It is so good that it should not be proprietary owned by Belkin because Belgium objectively does not use it anymore. Just find the reason why it works the way how it works and elevate general standards of digital cable quality to this level. That is how my mind is working and I have no idea why the industry doesn't do it.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-01-2025

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	58
Post ID:	27859
Reply to:	26840

Those explanations are irrelevant.

xandcg wrote:
A cable vendor that actually explain what they are doing... if that is BS or not, I can't tell.

https://signalprojects.com/technology/

Actually I am not very satisfied with those explanations. Even though from physics and electrical prospective they are trying to do right things but how their Rochester's has very applied and very tangible benefit to a listening practice. I did not see any single attempt for them to build a bridge between specific electric parameter and how it impacts to sound. In my view that is absolutely key for any honest technology presentation in audio. You can spend incredible amount efforts to describe how accurate ingredients of a drink made. Still, in one way it might be a beautiful cocktail or in other case it's might be just a poison.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

01-01-2025

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,685
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	59
Post ID:	27860
Reply to:	27858

Business As Usual vs. Choose By Ear

The very reason I posted about "Accidental Success" (in Playback Listening) is recognition of and resignation about the fact that audio components are generally not developed through high-demands listening, and those that seem to be so developed are severally limited (to my ears). In the case of front ends, I started making mine "harder" and harder years ago, until I was dealing with TMI (too much information), then I tried different ways to get all the information to "work", meaning "all the parts contribute to my Musical insight", without rounding things off. There is a big downside to this approach, namely that recordings sound like recordings, and - as we all know - not all recording are "good". There was a lot of tweaking over many years to get things to the point where I could get more Music than sound, per se, and "tricks" included for a while selecting parts that seemed not to expedite or hinder sounds, particularly Music, but they just passed it on. We are all stuck with parts that have very specific jobs to do, and specs are not nothing where this is concerned. In the end, i think it is well to have paid attention to things as I heard them, as I grew my system. It's hard for me to imagine commodifying anything I have done, if only because of all the time it's taken me. But I agree with Romy that "someone" with the manufacturing capabilities "ought to be able to" build on success via reverse engineering, if nothing else. Are there manufacturers with evolved listening skills based on evolved Musical appreciation that are consistently churning out great sounding, edge-of-the-art components? Off hand, I can't think of any...

Paul S

01-02-2025

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,226
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	60
Post ID:	27862
Reply to:	27860

This is how it typically works.

The way it typically works is the following. Belkin most likely does not produce its own cables but gets them from other manufacturers. So, any “civilized” High-End audio entrepreneur would do the following:

Figure out where Belkin sources the Synapse cable and order 10 miles of it for probably $.99 a foot. It would cost a few more sense per foot to do the custom labeling of the cable “Digital Spring Dream”. Then meet with one of the contemporary audio reviewers and proposer to lend him $100K for 20% a year interest to set up a sweatshop with a dozen $10 per hour illegals that would cat the cable and terminate them. The audio reviewer published his typical idiocy in one of the leading publications claiming it was a very lucky event as the US government declassified the noise suppression ceremony used on M142 HIMARS and the retired service owner of “Digital Spring Dream” company used it to design his cables. Now the “Digital Spring Dream” cable costs $2,499 per meter. Then the owner of the “Digital Spring Dream” unleashes his little private army of online intellectuals-morons who jump to different websites (whatsbest and many similar) where posters receiving 75% off for the cable describe their orgasmic experiences from listening to this cable. As the noise picked up, the owner paid $50K to Robb Report for some product placement. As the owner of the “Digital Spring Dream” recognizes that his stash of the cable running out and the company who made it is not there anymore. He has two options: Continue to sell completely different cables under the “Digital Spring Dream” name (thankfully the audio Morons will not know the difference) or discover the new product. The reviewer and his pack of online “intellectuals” encouraged the owner to release any other cable for half-price under the name “Digital Spring Dream Jr”. This train was never late.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

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