| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Audio Discussions » It’s mad, mad, mad... electricity. (* posts, 25 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 56 of 96 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 54 55 56 57 58 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175315  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112428  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  925063  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264953  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108313  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163632  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230740  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  79021  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43211  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  84013  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29367  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16695  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9950913  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154770  10-24-2010
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1101
Post ID: 19241
Reply to: 19239
Local production of PP
fiogf49gjkf0d
hifigirlgeek :I have to say that the change to local production does not seem to have done much for either the quality of the goods provided, or their customer service.

I got one of the older units (pre-cluster) and have had no problems with it. The older units are occasionally offered, used of course, on various sites. As for the return of manufacture to Canada, I always thought Purepower's explanation either to be bogus or naive. Although not a production engineer myself, my job at one point involved me tangentially in production/assembly issues. It is difficult enough to completely transfer production from one location and staff to another, but to also change the design at the same time was guaranteed to raise quality control issues if nothing else. Also the idea that the costs were not going to rise producing an equivalent or better component begs the question of why they off-loaded production overseas in the first place. But as I said there are sometimes used older models offered for sale.
04-16-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1102
Post ID: 19242
Reply to: 19239
Terrible terrible APS Purepower
fiogf49gjkf0d
Just chiming in here. I had the good fortune to get one of the early PP2000 units and loved it, except for a little hum when it was plugged in to the wall. The sound was fabulous! 

The hum turned out to be a internal wiring issue, which by bad fortune, caused the unit to just stop working entirely one day. That was a sad day. I called up APS and they said to just send it back and they would repair it promptly. 

Then I had the bad fortune that this occurred right at the time the whole China debacle and attempted takeover by the distributor occurred. I waited and waited. I called them often and there was always some excuse. One time I was even told the unit was all ready to be shipped out and just needed some final testing before packing it up. This was a lie. The unit never came. Eventually it turned out they had entirely lost my PP2000.

Since then, and I suppose it is now on the order of years rather than months, I have kept calling and getting one excuse after another. I was promised a replacement unit. Most recently I have been promised a PP3000+ as a replacement for all the time I have waited. Well, so far nothing. I am at this point quite skeptical that I will ever receive anything at all from APS. I believe I may be simply out the money I spent. Which is too bad, as it was a good company once.

I still keep calling and getting promises, but I won't believe it until I see it with my own eyes. Given this abominable track record for failure, deception, and shoddy customer service, I would be very cautious until this company is back on their feet and their manufacturing standards have improved. As I understand it, it is just a few folks trying to build the units as quickly as they can and use the profits from the sales to fund the next production run. Hardly something you want to invest in at the present moment.

Don't get me wrong: the PP2000 was a great sounding unit. Unfortunately, the current climate at APS is unstable. I am quite disappointed to have never got a replacement unit after years of waiting.

Adrian
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1103
Post ID: 19243
Reply to: 19242
Timing
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian, it's good to hear you finally got what you wanted from your older unit, however I never got the impression - here or anywhere else - that APS themselves ever had any sort of handle on any revelant-to-us aspect of their product/operation, before or after "the whole China debacle".

Here's hoping it works out for you, in any case.


Best regards,
Paul
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1104
Post ID: 19244
Reply to: 19239
Me, being an abominable asshole.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yep, that looks like very bad. I am sorry folks you get hurt.  I still get my two PP2000 of vintage wherever I got them, they are spectacular and I love them greatly.  Since I got them to work properly (after the shielding accident) I have no single complain and both of the units do run dally, one for audio and another for video rooms.  I do feel like with my units as butteries get older the effectiveness of the decoupling might slightly drop but it is very difficult to make this assessment objectively.  I do plan this year to replace the battery and kind of slowly am looking for a souse to get them less expensive.

I am very interesting about the new PP2000+ but I did not jump into the PP2000+ bandwagon as I did anticipate some debugging period with is apparently not over.  The overheating that “hifigirlgeek” reports is kind of ridicules as this is very essential core design of the units and I can’t imagine that they missed it. I do not doubt the hifigirlgeek narrative but I just do not believe that it all that simple.  Perhaps there were some specific conditions of the hifigirlgeek’s use or some flow with his septic unit, or perhaps with the production batch. It do not believe that it not been the fundamental flow of the entire design – perhaps I am naïve but it never happens this way with electronics. 
   
To hire a technician to add the extra heat sink   - that is very bold and in my view is incorrect move. I would not go for this as increase the radiating surface just cure symptom but will not   address the reason why the unit was overheating. What surprised me is why hifigirlgeek went to the trouble to fix his unit but not just returned the unit as defective. The fact that hifigirlgeek reports that his PP2000+ does not provide effective sound improvement do suggest me that the unit is defective. The PurePower looks like still sell with 30 days free trail, so why not to return the unit if you feel that it is does function in compliance with specifications or expectations?  

If cause I do not blame anybody but PurePower but there is a very ugly egotistic tune in my soul that make me very happy that I did not get the new PP2000+ units year and that all of those “new model problems” happen with somebody else not with me. I know, I sound like a dick but it is what it is and as much as I am itching to have the manual bypass that PurePower made available in the new units I am still sitting on fence and waiting when the new units get stable in operation/support and will sound reportedly good. I do plan to try the new PP2000+ units them.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1105
Post ID: 19245
Reply to: 19243
Purepower cluster
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul S

My guess is that the redesigned elements were never adequately proved out in a prototype. There is not only the issue of the manufacturing implementation of the new design elements, but also their integration into an existing production model. I'm sure the changes were rushed in order to provide some sort of difference from the old Taiwan produced model for marketing. Drdna's surmise or info on their using the cash from one sale to fund the production of the next has the ring of truth. Even more disturbing is the assertion of hifigirlgeek that an electrician said the unit failed code. If true, there could be a hazard. It would be useful if hifigirlgeek could elaborate or clarify that point.
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
hifigirlgeek
Posts 2
Joined on 04-17-2013
Post #: 1106
Post ID: 19246
Reply to: 19245
Technical issues with pp+2000
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi guys.  In response to Romy, I tried to return the unit, but they refused to take it, insisting that there wasn't a fault and that any new unit would have the same issues.  They designed the fix of the extra heat sink and asked me to have a technician carry it out - supposedly at their expense.  As to whether it was correct, you'd have to ask them - not being an electrician, I had to trust them on that.  They did say that they were redesigning the next models with a larger heat sink and would send me a replacement circuit board in January, but that has of course never happened.  As for the grounding issues, it doesn't meet Australia/New Zealand standards, which is where I'm based. My technician knows the details better than I do, but its something to do with requiring a dedicated ground link on its own board.  I've been trying to get the details off him, but he's been mucked around on payment too and strangely enough isn't forthcoming with this information. In our corner of the world, the way it was done could definitely pose a hazard in his opinion.  I don't know if its the same where you are.  Romy, I'm happy to provide you with copies of my long email history with them if you have any doubts. 
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 1107
Post ID: 19247
Reply to: 19237
Bullshit deficient
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, "nothing special" is exactly right, and cheap - £500 delivered in the UK. But the point is that there can be very little that is special about such devices, *other* than what these people talk about, which is audible noise from fans and ironware. That is the only adaptation they have made to suit it to the audio market, and they are honest about it. And they know it does not justify tripling the price.
The basic topology of the purepower aps devices is exactly the same as a conventional double conversion device: this is why they used a UPS manufacturer at the outset. Nothing in their literature explains how -- besides not having noisy fans -- their devices differ from this basic model. And so there is nothing to explain why one should be spending thousands on their version of it. Had they removed fans altogether and added a fuckoff enormous external copper heatsink (say), one might be sympathetic to the high price. But as it is it is hard not to feel this is yet more bullshit in the bullshit-ridden audio world.
Of course the question is always the sound -- and the effects on sound of this device is fine, but I have only had it for a day, and so do not have a view over variations in the quality of power off the wall. And it may be that purepower produces better sound than other double conversion devices. But the vast majority of double conversion devices would never be evaluated against it because they are disqualified at the outset by being too noisy (owing to their cooling). So it is hard for anyone to have a synoptic view. 
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1108
Post ID: 19249
Reply to: 19246
Very sad situation
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hifigirlgeek,

  Thanks for your reply and further details. A very unfortunate mess and shabby treatment. The fact that they now say they need to mod the mod confirms my point above about making design changes on the fly. Of course they may simply be repeating the initial mistake of rushing changes through without adequate testing. i've seen that happen too. 
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Canuck
Posts 8
Joined on 12-16-2011
Post #: 1109
Post ID: 19250
Reply to: 19249
Purepower plus
fiogf49gjkf0d
   I have been following this thread for a few years now. I almost bought the PurePower 2000 plus when it was first out but then I started seeing negative comments on product and more importantly service. I am so glad I held off as it just seems to be getting worse. Purepower needs to HALT ALL ORDERS until they get all their ducks in a row. I can see them closing shop within 2 years if these problems and lack of service continue.
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
SOS
Posts 10
Joined on 11-12-2012
Post #: 1110
Post ID: 19252
Reply to: 19250
What I don't understand
fiogf49gjkf0d
Is why are customers still trying the new PP plus units when we have not heard of one good experience? There have now been too many broken promises and all should be very cautious with their dealings with PP. 
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1111
Post ID: 19253
Reply to: 19250
Not an option for them
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't think Purepower Canada has the wherewithal to just close the factory assembly and take a sabbatical while they start from scratch, or better, just return to the old model that mostly worked. In addition they probably have lost their markets in the Orient if not elsewhere so their sales base is shrinking. My advice is search for a used unit.
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1112
Post ID: 19254
Reply to: 19250
But What Has Changed, Really?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, it's a l-o-n-g thread, but everyone should read it from the beginning.  My previous point was/is that the terrible "QA" and CS have been ongoing, since Romy first began airing his dealings with this company and their products, years ago.  Romy literally fought wiith these people for years, apparently hoping to wind up with a viable unit and, based on "early promise" that he recognized, he was willing to keep his hat in the ring.   As far as I am concerned, based on all I've read, that Romy did wind up with a couple of "keeper" units is mainly testimony to his ability to home in on what he wanted with relentless intensity despite odds apparently stacked against customers.  And through all of this, few others reported faring so well.  Meanwhile, APS' most recent revision/"upgrade" included significantly reducing the weight of their products.  Smart move, given the likelihood that most units will be coming back at least once under warranty.  I no longer remember how many times Romy's units went back and forth.  As an aside, I would be interested to see traces of RF output from the newer units, compared to older units, since APS' recently-posted disclaimer on the RFI.


Paul S
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1113
Post ID: 19257
Reply to: 19254
Still stand by used older PP model
fiogf49gjkf0d
I understand what Paul is saying but it is also true Romy was looking for some customization and wasn't content with the original design. I have seen enough acceptable comment concerning the older model that if it is Not exhibiting some fault (Very Important) it is probably a safe buy on the used market. Sadly, I bet that the PP older models produced in Taiwan are probably more reliable than anything else we are likely to see. Maybe all of the squabbling vendors should stop fighting in the sandbox and go back to making the old model the way they did in the past (with improved QC).
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1114
Post ID: 19258
Reply to: 19257
I am bit confused...and not.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I am bit confused with that new report. Under no circumstance I would defense Pure Power, nor anybody want my defense, but the reports I hear juts do not makes sense. If look like Pure Power grade for extra 30% or 50% power with new units, I do not remember how much but it was significant. It looks like they use the same butteries amount, it means the initial voltage in the battery back they have the same. So, they can get more power by running higher current, therefore running the output stages hotter. Nowadays to make an efficient cooling is very simple (BTW the older units had very simple cooling and there was a LOT of room to make it more sophisticated) and if they design a new version then the current they run on the output stage have to be matched with volume and efficiency of the cooling they use. This balance between current and heat dissipation is not try and cut but this is very rudimental engineering task and I absolutely assure you that it was done properly. I just can’t imagine that they place an order for let say 100 units and did not test a fully functional prototype. No one would put the overheating units in production – that would be suicidal or the action of absolutely stupid people. Say whatever you wish about Pure Power folks but I very doubt that would send out the unit knowing that it will overheat – no manufactured will do it. What might hap an is that hifigirlgeek has some kind of specific operation condition in his playback that Pure Power people did not face (presumably 220V swing?) or that this specific hifigirlgeek unit was defective. Just think yourself: would you send the overheating unit out if you know that it will come back? The new PP 2000+ is about year and a half in production, I am sure they sold some of them and I doubt that they sent “experimental” unit out.

I have no doubts that the problems that hifigirlgeek describe are real and looks like the behavior of Pure Power not exactly commendable. Still, from what I heard something does not mach. Pure Power did use customers and guinea pigs testing new implementations but it was with customer’s consent and in my case they did stay behind ether fuckups or the consequences of the discovery process.

Answering the SOS’s question:  why are customers still trying the new PP plus units when we have not heard of one good experience. I can’t say about other customers I can say about myself.  It is plain and simple: I did not see any power devise that sound as good as two of my units( they are one revision before the Chinese problems but with fixed shielded static bug). A properly operating PP is spectacularly sounding devise in my view.

Would I like to have another devise that would cost a fraction of PP and were less capriccios in operation and support? Of cause I would love to but does anybody know such a devise? I would LOVE if someone would challenge me with presenting a unit that would be better then PP but I do not see a contender. I am not looking for a contestant; it does not mean that it does not exist. Be my guest and search. I spent enough time to “find” the PP2000 and I am consuming in the way the result of my actions. Develop your own power devise, yourself or with some kind of company, let compare the results. My home will be always open for any serious challenges in the realm of audio electricity. 

The Cat 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1115
Post ID: 19259
Reply to: 19258
Suicidal or stupid or poor verbal skills?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy: "I just can’t imagine that they place an order for let say 100 units and did not test a fully functional prototype. No one would put the overheating units in production – that would be suicidal or the action of absolutely stupid people. Say whatever you wish about Pure Power folks but I very doubt that would send out the unit knowing that it will overheat."


This question could easily be answered by hifigirlgeek's communications with PP which geek offered to provide you. We could make a contest and see which gets more votes: suicidal or stupid or poor verbal skills.
04-17-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004
Post #: 1116
Post ID: 19260
Reply to: 19259
A contest!
fiogf49gjkf0d
I love it!
04-18-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009
Post #: 1117
Post ID: 19268
Reply to: 19260
In Defence of PurePower
fiogf49gjkf0d
PurePower is always happy to answer reasonable questions on this forum.  Especially if the inquiries are provided in a spirit of advancing the discussion of the topic. It appears there are an awful lot of misconceptions about PurePower+ models vs the old design that deserve comment. 
 
We will attempt to address all of the issues raised in this forum. It's going to take a few replies to various parts of this string - but I think we can clarify what appears to be a lot of mud - a bit of it slung carelessly.

The PurePower+ 2000 model that hifigeekgirl received was the result of a year of development and had extensive field beta testing. The overheating she refers to occurred on a small sub board that provides charging current to the battery string. It happens that we made a minor change in location of the board when we started full production that moved it out of an area of greater air flow and the heat sink needed to be increased to preserve the cooling level of a power transistor.  It did not overheat in our bench tests, and many units in the field never experienced overheating. In hifigeekgirl's case it did overheat. The result was a recurring alarm and descriptive error code raised by the on board diagnostics which was presented on the front display. The PurePower+ automatically protected itself from overheating by shutting down the regeneration and charger. That doesn't seem too stupid to me. 

The engineering change required to remedy the problem was very simple and effective. Increasing the heat sink size by 50% reduced the component temperature to well within acceptable operating range and even continuous operation at 100% load did not increase the charging board operating temperature. 

We immediately upgraded all units previously shipped to customers and dealers and made the change in production.  The issue has not re-occurred and by any measure is fully resolved. 

We'll have more to say about reliability and service experience of the PurePower+ models vs the old units.
04-19-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1118
Post ID: 19270
Reply to: 19268
PurePower failure
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would say that this is not an answer to the question. It does not really matter what the problem was with the PP2000+ unit in question. This is an irrelevant conclusion that seeks to divert attention from the primary issue. What is important is the company's response to the problem. The industry standard would be to have the defective unit returned to the distributor and repaired or replaced with a new unit. To invite the customer to have a random electrician modify the equipment is highly irregular to say the least. Ordinarily that is called voiding the warrantee. 

What is patently obvious is that PurePower has a well-established history of dealing poorly with equipment failures, and responding only when threatened. I am amazed that I sent back my defective PurePower 2000 TWO YEARS AGO and I have never got anything back from them except empty promises. In retrospect, maybe I would have been better off having a local electrician fix the unit, as at least I would still have it. I understand that I am apparently last in line to get a replacement unit, since they will not make any money from it (as opposed to selling the unit to a new customer), but this has to be the most abysmal customer service EVER. 

I would love to be able to comment on whether the new Pure Power Plus units are as good as the old ones or not, but since APS has never sent me a replacement unit, I am unable to say anything, except that having paid a substantial sum for their product and having nothing to show for it at all, it has to be the worst audio purchase I have ever made.

Adrian
04-19-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1119
Post ID: 19271
Reply to: 19270
Code
fiogf49gjkf0d
That's not the only thing that wasn't answered. There is also the statement by hifigirlgeek that the electrician said the PP 2000+ does not meet code at least in NZ/AUS. This raises the issue whether they all don't meet code or whether it's limited to that locality. I haven't heard in the past that electronic components had to be specially modified to be permitted to be plugged into the NZ grid but maybe every country now has their own electrical theory..
04-19-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
SOS
Posts 10
Joined on 11-12-2012
Post #: 1120
Post ID: 19272
Reply to: 19271
Humming issue?
fiogf49gjkf0d
What about this issue of humming, this is a reoccurring theme that has not been addressed. Even my own 2000+ unit I sold to a gentleman that owned an original 2000 unit who said he would be able to figure the issue out had the humming issue and to date has not been able to stop the new 2000+ from this concern. I've yet to hear or see a report from any customer who has been happy with one of these newer plus units. 
Page 56 of 96 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 54 55 56 57 58 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175315  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112428  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  925063  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264953  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108313  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163632  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230740  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  79021  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43211  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  84013  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29367  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16695  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9950913  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154770  10-24-2010
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts