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Home » Horn-Loaded Speakers» French Horns/drivers shootout (oops! S2 came last) (8 posts, 1 page)

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»	New	Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...	A typical convention......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	124	1363283	07-16-2004
»	New	Vitavox S2 coupling..	Adaptor thickness etc....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	18	94979	12-20-2008
»	New	LeCleach vs. tratrix and ...Zigmond Froid..	LeCleach vs. tratrix and ...Zigmond Froid...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	0	22607	12-09-2005
»	New	The European Triode Festival’s horns..	Good luck...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	57	575006	12-13-2007
»	New	Where the Horns Light is shining from?..	Where the Horns Light is shining from?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	0	11881	12-09-2010

12-07-2010

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	1
Post ID:	15108
Reply to:	15108

French Horns/drivers shootout (oops! S2 came last)

Romy:

I think you may find the link and the shoot-out, of limited value as they are, of interest. The S2 did not fare well at all, not surprising really, given its idiosyncrasies and how difficult it is to get anything remotely acceptable out of it.

http://www.triodefestival.net/index.php?page=etf-2010-shootout

The measurements are also very interesting. Scroll down to download these.

Enjoy

Regards
Rakesh

12-07-2010

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	2
Post ID:	15109
Reply to:	15108

JMLC comments on S2 in Stereolab Tractrix horn

Thankfully, JMLC chose to use english as the common language for he event, not altogether surprising given the many nationalities that probably attended.

JMLC writes:

"N°13 : Stereolab tractrix horn + Vitavox S2 driver

A bell shape frequency response curve with a smooth slope between 2300Hz and

15kHz (easy to equalize). Low distortion (only H2 and H3 components are visible in the

condition of the measurement). Very low H3 level. Some rise of H2 and H3 below 500Hz

seemingly indicating an Fs of the driver around 320Hz.

A very smooth group delay curve but with a bump between 1kHz and 3kHz (related to

some .7ms early reflection/diffraction seen on the spectrogram, probably due to the part

between diaphragm and throat of the horn) .

Clean frequency response . Some reflected energy from mouth to throat due to the

unbaffled truncated mouth of that small horn."

One may question the methodology but there must be some admiration for those involved who organised such a complex and time-consuming event. Is France and Germany the true keepers of the horn flame then, aside from that beam of incandescent light from across the pond?

Regards
Rakesh

12-07-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	3
Post ID:	15112
Reply to:	15109

What does it mean?

Yes, Rakesh, thanks. I do not know if it is interesting. I look at this report and his findings and I do not know what it all means. It certainly gives a relevant perspective on different drivers but I do not think that it gives any quality perspective. Each driver need to have own crossover or horn solution to give own best and it would be interesting to see the comparative measurements then, after each of the drivers works in own optimum mode. Otherwise it is like evaluating the beauty of women by measuring all of them according to a template of a standard breast.

What I would like JMLC do it to travel around the word, find compression drivers that sound better and then to measure the responses and the rest mumbo-jumbo. The point is that all of those measurements without PROPER projecting them to listening experiences are irrelevant.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-08-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	4
Post ID:	15124
Reply to:	15108

The festival format generally.

I followed the linked, looked at the picture of the 2010 festival and read about it. I am not sure that I am very comfortable with format of the entire event. They collected 100 people from around the world who has interest audio and they exposed them to 20 different bad sounding installations, presuming that they will encourage the people to think about drivers. If I run the festival then I would go to different direction. I would present juts one but very good sounding system that would encourage those 100 people to think about Sound. I am sure that time damain analoses would not be necessary….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-08-2010

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	5
Post ID:	15125
Reply to:	15124

Festival as in festive

Well Romy:

The format is what it is. And the idea is to encourage people to join in, share experiences, maybe be festive at this time of year...

I am not here to fly to the defense of the organisers of the festival although I certainly find it interesting to be able to look at the measurements of the drivers and what people generally thought about them. The main problem is one of logistics I imagine. Most people who actually took their drivers and horns there travelled by car/plane and unless you hire a van, loading two sets of drivers/horns alongside luggage might be just too much to ask. With regard to having just one or a number of 'good' systems, and teach people about sound, that is to presume one person knows more about sound than others, and I am sure many would shy from making such a claim...In any case, there are shows where systems are shown, but this was not the case here.

I have no affiliation to the organisers and have never attended any of these 'festivals' but imagine at some point, I might be interested in attending.There seems to be more of a movement in France and Germany to fill in the intellectual vacuum in audio that's the unfortunate result of the state of the 'high-end' everywhere in the world. It seems to be devoid of the heavy posturing that one finds in certain circles. Having said this, I have come across some french forums where the arguments seem to be as long-winded and vacuous as the best you will find on Audiogon, audioasylum, pinkfishmedia, DIYaudio etc...

What I do like is getting to meet people who can share their experiences, chat over a beer (or a glass of wine) and know that the opinions/ideas being expressed are not conditioned by commercial interests which is a spoiler of everything worthwhile in our hobby. Recently I asked someone who contributes regularly on your forum and has a system 'similar' to yours to come and listen to his system. He did not answer. I feel embarrassed to have asked. Here on the other hand, we have people who are prepared to travel long distances to share. Even if it is a 'shadow' of their systems, and a flawed one at that, there is more good that will come out of this in my mind than the isolated expert who remains in his ivory tower and will not mix with the common people. So I take my hat off to the organisers...misguided and methodologically clueless as they might have been. I should of course say that your own website is even more of a monumental effort and of even greater service to those who either want to merely copy your successes or search for their own ideal sound.

Kind regards
Rakesh

12-08-2010

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	6
Post ID:	15126
Reply to:	15125

The EuroTeach-SuperPlayback?

Rakesh, I have a different approach. I feel that all communications are in a way worthless and I personally feel that I have the best education for myself when I experience an “offensive“ presentation from audio and THAT makes me to think about driver and filter and sounds as the rest of the audio crap. There is no need to “teach people about sound”. In my view people are perfectly able to learn themselves. There is also no notion that “one person knows more than others”. All those things are self-regulated. Pretend that 100 people at that European festival brought their crap all together and face theme with a task to but a very good playback during those 2-3 days. Pretend that 100 people with practically unlimited knowledge and recourses spent a day or to to built a EuroSuper playback. The methods and the reference points that everyone contribute might be hugely mutually educational. Furthermore, and the most important, if I run the show then I would made the last day of the show explicitly dedicated to each of those 100 people to make up to 15 minute obligatory presentation. During this presentation all people must on specific examples demonstrate and to describe what s/he feels are positive and negative aspects of the given installation’s Sound. This is where I feel educations might come from. To run a bunch of the drivers against a scope is a bit brainless action. I did read the Festival result but I did not feel myself that I was enriched in any way.

Rgs, the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

12-09-2010

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jessie.dazzle

Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #:	7
Post ID:	15130
Reply to:	15125

Guilty

I realize this is off topic, but I would like to address the issue:

Rackish wrote:

"...Recently I asked someone who contributes regularly on your forum and has a system 'similar' to yours to come and listen to his system. He did not answer. I feel embarrassed to have asked..."

Hmm, I think you're in Europe and we did correspond a while ago, so it sounds like that person might be me...

Though our correspondence was centered on another subject, I decided to go back and check it out; I see that you did mention that you'd like to hear my system and I see that I did not respond to that comment. I do apologize, it was not intentional; I simply concentrated on answering the main part of your message. No need to feel embarrassed; I like having people hear my system. I used to do it regularly (mostly with local, non-audio people) and plan to continue this practice as soon as I can get the system eating its carrots and peas again.

What do I mean by that? For the past year I've been putting up with widely drifting plate current on the output (sound) tubes of the main amps. It seems this condition is due to the aging of the tube sockets and is therefore easily corrected. I have however put all audio projects on hold, giving priority to a sort of life emergency; getting out of here and into a different day job (the current one is destroying me). During this time I've set plate current to 175mA (instead of 310mA) in order to allow a safe "drifting margin", so not ideal for sound. The situation is now to the point where I am forced to act and have finally ordered new parts (really nice Teflon sockets). They have not yet arrived, and in the mean time, I'm listening to headphones! Also, I've got a 40Hz mid-bass horn under construction right smack where you'd normally put the listening chair, and another one completed and standing on end like the Eiffel tower, more or less blocking the right channel. I no longer kid myself that my current room is usable with the 40Hz horns; I'm keeping the place only as a construction site (has a nice, flat, smooth, level concrete floor).

I'll definitely let you know if I get the system up and running again before leaving France (the mid-bass horns, once done, could be temporarily moved out of the way), otherwise you'll have a reason to visit the Detroit area.

jd*

How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.

12-09-2010

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oxric
Posts 194
Joined on 02-12-2010

Post #:	8
Post ID:	15131
Reply to:	15130

My bad

jessie.dazzle wrote:
I realize this is off topic, but I would like to address the issue:

Rackish wrote:

"...Recently I asked someone who contributes regularly on your forum and has a system 'similar' to yours to come and listen to his system. He did not answer. I feel embarrassed to have asked..."

Hmm, I think you're in Europe and we did correspond a while ago, so it sounds like that person might be me...

Though our correspondence was centered on another subject, I decided to go back and check it out; I see that you did mention that you'd like to hear my system and I see that I did not respond to that comment. I do apologize, it was not intentional; I simply concentrated on answering the main part of your message. No need to feel embarrassed; I like having people hear my system. I used to do it regularly (mostly with local, non-audio people) and plan to continue this practice as soon as I can get the system eating its carrots and peas again.

jd*

Hi Jessie:

I actually knew you were planning to move back to the US and in all honesty, I realised that moving being as maddeningly frustrating and stressful to organise as it always is, you might not be able to accomodate my hopefully polite suggestion. There are however few (let's say no-one apart from Romy) who makes use of a 40Hz horn with Vitavox AK151 alongside S2s, and I thought that opportunity might not materialise once you had left. I was childishly peeved by your non-response and hence the inappropriate comment above. So I do apologise.

As it happens, I picked up my S2 drivers from someone in Paris and thought it would be very fitting if I got to hear the very system I was curious about in the city where I (mis)spent several holidays in the days of my delinquent youth...

In addition, I really was thinking more about those contributors/participants like JMLC and others who were prepared to travel fairly long distances, some of them carrying their horn gear, to make such an event happen. Hopefully that will put the right perspective on my comment.

It is a shame you are leaving though as I feel there was a lot in terms of your horn building techniques I would have liked to understand better. I am starting out by hopefully building some tractrix horns for my S2 and would have sought some advice/help given that you made yours not a long time ago.

Again, slightly off topic, but I do feel that there is something at the moment in France and Germany which would qualify as a horn movement. Maybe you might want to comment on this in the thread Romy initiated about countries which can be said to be carrying 'the flame' of the horn world. As I said, I have started making enquiries, and talking to people but I am sure I have only scratched the surface of something considerably more substantial. For my part, I feel my input can only be limited by my lack of exposure but will comment once I have got some of my varied strands of thoughts on the subject together.

Thanks for the invite in due course. I sure will look forward to it whether it be in Paris or in Detroit!

Regards
Rakesh

Page 1 of 1 (8 items)

Select Pages:

	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Vitavox’s S2 Survival Guide...	A typical convention......	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	124	1363283	07-16-2004
»	New	Vitavox S2 coupling..	Adaptor thickness etc....	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	18	94979	12-20-2008
»	New	LeCleach vs. tratrix and ...Zigmond Froid..	LeCleach vs. tratrix and ...Zigmond Froid...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	0	22607	12-09-2005
»	New	The European Triode Festival’s horns..	Good luck...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	57	575006	12-13-2007
»	New	Where the Horns Light is shining from?..	Where the Horns Light is shining from?...	Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum	0	11881	12-09-2010