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  »  New  Stop buying the records cleaning fluid?..  I think it is all about oil....  Analog Playback Forum     3  19318  09-28-2008
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11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 12167
Reply to: 12167
Sensible record cleaning: vinyl piranhas and record Vaseline
fiogf49gjkf0d

I do not claim any special vinyl cleaning inelegance. In fact I did quite stupid things in my past playing with a few cleaning and playing “improvement” solutions.  Well, I went over it and have learned that I would like to practice only something that I call “dry cleaning”.

The concept of “dry cleaning” implies that record is moisturized, then vacuumed and cleared record is “dry”, means has no residue on the record of any kind. I do not feel that scabbing of records clean them. I feel that wetting records with Grease absorbing liquid (alcohol) and then sucking the juice with vacuum is all the necessary to clear the records. As the result my clean records are “dry” and highly abrasive. I do admit that the “dry” records, being played by the needle with contemporary complex profiles, might have some noise. I feel that this is the noise that the records have naturally. My last two cartridges in my reference stereo arm are both hard-reading cartridges (Shelter 901 and Ortofone Jubilee) What I play clean records, with good surface and good quality of vinyl then they are silent. Otherwise I do pick some noises here and there and I do feel that is how it shall be the noise-reading of a record shall reflect the condition of the record…

Last few weeks I have a local guy who debates this position and who has his alternative view. He feels that the residues and dirt solidified under the bottom of the grooves and the regular alcohol vinyl cleaners can’t dilute it and therefore vacuum does not remove the bottom-laying dirt. He feels that to deal with the situation records need to be scabbed with “right” brushes and the cleaners liquids have to be active.

He considers his record cleaning tech as a “high-end cleaning” and he describing his techniques using terminology that kind of make me to be afraid.  He talks about some kind of biological active things, sort of "vinyl piranhas" that live in liquids and affect any non-vinyl dirt. Then the records need to be s scratched in special ways and then exposed to a few other types of liquids… This is a totally new way of thinking not me, and I am not sure is I am agree with it.

He made me to buy the Osage brash for scabbing and one of the brands of Osage's single-step cleaner.

http://www.osageaudio.com/

http://www.audiointelligent.com/philosophy.htm

I do like the brash very much. I do not like the Osage single-step cleaner  -it is too greasy and I need to wash my hands after touching it. I am afraid that all of his “high-end cleaning” might end up dounf will be oiling the records... Anyhow, we agreed that when my preamp be back and my system be up and running we will come together and he will show me how the “really good cleaning” might be performed. It might be interesting as his records do sound very quite silent but I am not willing to step away from my “dry” approach and I would like to preserve all natural vinyl's abrasiveness .

I am interested to see how it will end up. Meanwhile, I did not use any of the “Audio Intelligent” (AI ) cleaners and I am awaiting for a convincing cleaning demonstration/competition that would not affect sound negatively.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 2
Post ID: 12168
Reply to: 12167
Record cleaning fluid
fiogf49gjkf0d
This is what I use, with a few additions.  I agree it is not satisfactory to get the organic materials which would not be water soluble and it is undesirable to leave certain oils that accumulate over time on records are a result of smoke and grime in the air.I use the AI system but also all an enzymatic cleaner and First record cleaner. If there is a lot of grime, I will also use Everclear alcohol if nothing else works.A separate Disc Doctor brush is used for each fluid wash.It is all vacuumed up on a record cleaning machine.I came up with this because I started with a simple one step wash, and I added each step one at a time, listening to the results. What I do now is fairly elaborate, but it gets rid of noise that nothing else gets rids of and does not affect the Sound or the sounds in a negative way.Adrian
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 12169
Reply to: 12168
The Boston cleaning challenge.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Interesting. Whatever you do, do you have the final rise with alcohol-heavy cleaner to degrees the surface? I might presume that all of “active” cleaners and scriber do lift up from the grooves some “cemented” dirt but as the final wash all leftover of the “active” cleaning shell be eliminated.

What I would like to try, when my local guys will demonstrating to me his cleaning methods, will to see if the improvement will be due to play less abusive surface (LAST-effect) of it will be due to the true dirt removal.  My local guy is very confident that his techniques will be very affective and with no negative sonic consequences. Touching and feeling with my hands the AI Premium One-Step Formula I ma not convinced as I feel a LOT of oil in this mixture. I did not use any AI cleaners yet and wait for our “cleaning contest”…. I wonder myself what the result will be. From my former experiences the oiled records do sound very quiet but they consume the details of woodwinds in ppppp and very much depersonalize HF, making them all the same.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 4
Post ID: 12171
Reply to: 12169
Degrease the grooves
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Interesting. Whatever you do, do you have the final rise with alcohol-heavy cleaner to degrees the surface? I might presume that all of “active” cleaners and scriber do lift up from the grooves some “cemented” dirt but as the final wash all leftover of the “active” cleaning shell be eliminated.
This is essentially correct, the alcohol wash is second to last, followed by distilled water as the final step.These cleaners are very good ones, and I believe you will not be disappointed. The modifications I have added, I think are important though, because you do not want any residue of the cleaning agents remaining on your records. You want them to be totally removed and the records should be dry. When it is done correctly, there is no sonic detriment that I can detect, just less noise.
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 12172
Reply to: 12171
A second washer machine?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Ok, but if you are correct then it would require at least 2 washer machines: one to collect the active wash and another is to collect the alcohol wash. The point is that your “active washes” are looks like oily and the lips of the washer machine that collect it will be greasy. The second washer machines might be filed with just clean alcohol fluid and it’s lips would be clean, assuring the abrasiveness of the records.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 6
Post ID: 12173
Reply to: 12172
Washer machines or lips?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, I do not use different machines. I have arranged it to have separate felt pads on the machine. I believe you call these the "lips", as well as separate brushes for the fluids. Disc Doctor makes some excellent replacement pads and you can arrange these so that they can be easily changeable.Adrian
I mean, really, Romy, have I even NOT been totally obsessive and detail-oriented about anything?
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,138
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 7
Post ID: 12175
Reply to: 12173
The "Bonus" in Commercial Solutuions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Being old and long active in hi-fi, I have cleaned a Lot of records over Many years.  Further, I bought a Nitty Gritty 2.5 FI scrubber/vacuum machine back in 1988, so plenty of experience effing around with that, too.  And I've tried at least a dozen cleaning solution recipes.  So far, after every brush with the "commercial" cleaners I have tried, I have kicked myself.  It's been a long time since I tried any of them because, so far, every one of them contained some sort of stay-behind "lubricant", and I just do not like the final result, apart from the "quieter surfaces".  (Yes, I do like the "Quiet Surfaces" a lot...)

I have heard for many years that alcohol will mess up the vinyl.  Well, you couldn't prove it by me.  These days, for my machine, I use about a 70/30% mix of alcohol and distilled water, then I top it off with a slug of Folex "detergent", which is mostly super-purified water, a good wetting agent, and some sort of easily-vacuumed-off detergent.  This may not get "everything" out of the grooves, but it works well enough, given that if it leaves any residue, I can't detect it, after a whole lot of use.  I also use  a few drops of 60/40 alcohol and water, with just a drop or two of Folex in it, on my Disc Washer brush to brush each side lightly before playing.  In this case there is no doubt that some trace amount of the solution gets left behind, but no troubles after Many years of doing it.

I admit I have been curious about the "enzyme" cleaners, how that might work on some of my very stubborn cases.

However, I would rather my records were not-as-clean-as-possible-but-free-of-lubrication as opposed to as-clean-as-possible-but-slick.

Paul S
11-07-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,138
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 8
Post ID: 12176
Reply to: 12175
Softer, Gentler LPs
fiogf49gjkf0d
I forgot to mention that I have for a while feared that some "commercial cleaning solutions" and "treatments" use pernicious chemicals that actually "soften" the vinyl, at least for a while.

This would certainly tie in with the "transformation" I have heard after one or another "treatment" of an old, "brittle" LP.

And this just really creeps me out!

I always wonder if people who think vinyl becomes more "brittle" over time think the best approach is to "rejuvinate" said "hardened" vinyl with chemical "restoration": Lo, your LPs are as new again!

I do think some of my Angels, Seraphims, old RCAs, and a few others have gotten more brittle sounding over time, which I have attributed to progressive "micro-shattering" of the brittle-from-the-start surfaces.  But so far any attempts on my part to "treat" the surfaces to "soften" them have only resulted in listening to mud, rather than any real musical advantage.

Paul S
11-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 12184
Reply to: 12173
The records in a dishwasher?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian,

if it all true then I think the best configuration would be to have something like VPI one-side cleaning machine juts for sake of torturing of records and vacuum-collecting the residual or the torturing. And they to have the something like Nitty Gritty two-spiders for fast flood de-grease and final vacuuming. Also, if to embrace the idea of two or more stages of cleaning and to presume that first cleaning might be a “poisoned” one then I do not see that the “special” cleaners are necessary the right thing to do. There are a lot of VERY effective industrial cleaners and if we do not have a notion that the first clean is the last one then a lot of things might go there. I would not mind even to use a warm 140-160 degrees Fahrenheit cleaning active cleaning during the first step. Whatever you say but at higher temperature the piranha’s biteabilety shall be increased…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-08-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 10
Post ID: 12189
Reply to: 12176
Industrial cleaning
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, I have tried everything you might imagine to clean records. I first started out experimenting with some old scratched up records that I did not care if they were destroyed or not. Then I tried different strengths of isopropyl alcohol, ethyl alcohol, detergents, surfactants, dishwashing soaps, laundry soaps, and various organic solvents such as acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, methylene chloride, methyl alcohol, naphtha, etc, etc... I just let these soak for a long time just to see if the vinyl would chemically react and I eliminated the reagents that damaged the vinyl. 

After this test I observed if the individual reagents were useful in cleaning the vinyl based on the reduction of noise. Then I tested to see if any of them made a cumulative difference or not.

Then I purchased every commercial record cleaning fluid available, and they were subjected to the same tests.  This was a lot of tedious work, and it is a good thing I spent many hours at the laboratory bench as a biochemistry graduate student.

This is how I settled on my current protocol. Even though the complete process is a multi-step multi-fluid affair, I do not do this for every record. Most records receive a simple wash. It is only when there is noise or obvious grime or grit on the record that is not removed by simple cleaning that I go further and begin to add the other steps. Basically, I add these to deal with a specific problem that the record presents.

My feeling is to leave the records alone unless there is a problem that keeps me from enjoying the music.

Adrian
11-12-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 11
Post ID: 12250
Reply to: 12189
Active Enzymes anyone?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Adrian, your multi step fluid affair process does it involve active enzymes? This past summer I bought a multi step process that starts out first step with active enzyme soak. This was a dealer demostration that included a full refund up to 30 days.
I first used it on a some crappy new re-issues , the vinyl on some became very quiet, cd quiet. Next I started into a verity of older Lps to good effect.
 Four steps involved with a double rinse with laboratory grade water.
So far I have cleaned about a 100 Lps, tryed them right after , a few there was no differance though others that I remembered with tics and a little noise this stuff really did a job on them.

However 4 steps, like we need more work for vinyl play back.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 12
Post ID: 12254
Reply to: 12250
Record is not Record
fiogf49gjkf0d

I think, today we have a new problem with Vinyl. The quality Control in or after the cooling process. Most of the reissues today (or probably regular records too) are sensitive to clicks, pops and other noises. Or they run silent at the beginning and after some turns they start to get noisier.

Next is, the vinyl is super sensitive to scratches, even when you are careful, they can look very bad after regular use (they will never be interesting for collectors in future, except sealed)

But let's go back to the cleaning process. The "old" records (<1980, before CD Era) are very solid, silent (in general) and totally free from groove noise. What they - can - have, when we buy them 2. hand, they have some dust, dirt, coke, cigarette etc. stuff in the grooves (when they are in bad condition).

To clean them is normally no big deal, we can use various fluids (selfmade or commercial ones), we can put the fluid onto the record, manual or semi- automatic or full automatic, no big deal either and the only difference is, how to get it out. There are different Designs from RCM units (point nozzle, vacuum a la VPI, or Ultrasonic, Sunshine, towel or whatever).... here are really big differences and these are more important than any - overpriced - fluids with endless mark-ups.

Anyway, all work fine with those old records.

Now we have a new Situation, we have brandnew records which are noisy right from the first contact. Now we use all our fluids, start the cleaning process and all RCM owners are happy, that they can reduce the noises.

BUT:

Unfortunately not for 100%, we still have those noises, not so much than before, but they are still there. And when you stop the time from some tracks you will find out, the noise is always in the same time area. That means, what we did get out was some vinyl pollution which was inside when the record came out off the press, some of it is removable, but some not.

That is the main difference, even a 90gr disc from Van Morrison, far away from being an audiophile pressing, is completely silent after 1 cleaning and I can play it 50 times and it is still silent in the grooves.
We shouldn't start a discussion about how we clean, how often etc. Some love it, I have no problem with it. What interests me much more, why should I start this - frustrating - work with brand new records?

I paid premium prices and they deliver a medium which is inferior in every aspect (lousy remaster, dull high frequencies, weak vinyl, dirt in grooves etc...)

I have no problems with RCM, I use a Keith Monks and I know pretty well the differences from vinyl condition, but what we have today is a joke. Only Audiophiles can be so stupid to pay $30++ for that stuff, a normal human stops that after a few and goes for a CD.

I have a lot of Reissues, at the beginning (1995+) they were quite ok from the material, you had some differences in the know how of remastering, but the vinyl was fine. It went worse after 2002, when some discovered, they can make a lot of money with reissues and more and more offered them...

But the Manufacturers did not grow, the know-how is lost (in general) AND all has to be cheap...

I have no problem with record cleaning, that's the reason why I bought a Monks years ago, because I know, the record was ok when it was produced and the owner before me wasn't a collector.
Now I can read endless reports how and what was made, I was interested in these enzymes too, but after I read how expensive they are, that they only work a few hours and then they die, I asked my self: "Why should I start a Science with lots of money and worthy time to improve inferior made records I bought NEW for a top price?"

I closed that chapter.


Kind Regards
Stitch
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 13
Post ID: 12260
Reply to: 12254
Dirty 50 year olds
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stitch I agree about these new re-issue crap, I wouldn't waste my time and money on them anymore. Used records that I have bought around the time I purchased this enzyme cleaner were visually in good shape . I played a couple first with the usual surface noise then cleaned them with my old brew two step method. 
Then re-cleaned them with this enzyme soak method most did become quieter.
I did not go to the extemes that Adrian did and test other cleaning methods for comparions however for now it works for me.

From what I gather these enzymes die off only when activated a few hours after mixing them with water, by then you have already cleaned the amount of records you want to do. In other words you can not keep a pre-mix on hand for later use.

In the long run if this enzyme soak method proves itself, I'm sure one could buy active enzymes from other non audio related sources and make your own brew of cleaning solutions for far less.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 14
Post ID: 12263
Reply to: 12250
Enzymes and alternatives
fiogf49gjkf0d
Regarding the comparison of new and old vinyl, yes, but this is, of course, nothing new, is it?

Now returning to the topic of this thread, record cleaning, yes, as I mentioned I use an enzymatic wash for records. More properly it is a soaking, as I consider it to be inadequate to put a few drops of fluid on a record, swirl it around, and then wipe it off. I actually prepare my solution and pour it into a Milton's Giant Ant Farm, which I have inverted. It is a convenient, ultra-thin container, so I don't have to waste a lot of fluid, and the record will stand upright easily. I have tried all the different enzyme washes and prefer Walker's.

This said, what is it that enzymes are doing? Presumably shifting metals to soluble forms, breaking down proteins by breaking molecular bonds, etc. So we can use a combination of proteases and redox agents perhaps to achieve a similar result. A oxidizing agent like hydrogen peroxide might be mild enough on vinyl. Perhaps the protease enzymes in modern laundry detergents may be efficacious. I haven't tested either.

Again my real worry is that the enzymes and cleaners available for "other purposes" may damage vinyl, so one must be careful.

Has anyone done this sort of thing out there? Other thoughts? I am curious to hear.
11-13-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,138
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 15
Post ID: 12265
Reply to: 12263
Laundry List
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of course, at some point I "reasoned" that the laundry detergents, dish soaps, etc., contain the SOTA enzymes, surfactants, wetting agents, detergents, etc., and I've tried a number of them, including several "detergents" made for dishwashers. And they do seem to get the records "clean", all right..

But so far there seem to be "other factors" at work here.  I wish I had a nice stereo microscope so I could look at all sorts of stuff, like my stylus, and my records, after cleaning them.  Meanwhile, in the absence of any "hard evidence", I can only say it seems "as if" either something gets removed that should not have, or something gets left behind that should not have.  I can think of no better word than "dried up" to describe the sound of the detergent-washed LPs I have listened to.  And, yes, I've tried "OxyClean", too.

But I was just thinking about trying "Dawn" detergent, which is used by a lot of the Serious Car Nerds on their "show" paint jobs.

I'll let you know...

Best regards,
Paul S
11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
misnacat
Ontario Canada
Posts 12
Joined on 09-10-2009

Post #: 16
Post ID: 12267
Reply to: 12265
The use of enzymes for underarm deodorants and more
fiogf49gjkf0d
Hi,
Looking around on the net I think you'd be surprised the use of enzymes in everyday consumer life all the way to uses cleaning sensitive medical instruments.
I'm convinced now using enzymes will do no harm to vinyl. What it actually eats up on the surface and in the grooves of old Lps I don't know or care.
 However it seams to work well at removing noise on the majority of Lps I cleaned, even more effective then my old brew method.
Use of enzymes cleaning in medical labs the one thing they do not want is any type of residue left from cleaning hence the use of lab grade water to flush it all the way.
Anyway when I get around to it I think I'll skip walkers 2nd step own brew and see what the enzyme soak and lab grade flush will do on their own.

Mark
11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 17
Post ID: 12271
Reply to: 12267
Enyymes do not clean things
fiogf49gjkf0d
Of course enzymes are organic catalysts. They accelerate naturally occurring chemical reactions. In and of themselves they do not remove anything from the record; only break it up to allow other detergents etc. to separate the grime from the record in the presence of a solvent. In fact likely one would need a minimum of two solvents, one relatively polar (like water) and one more nonpolar to get all the types of crud, broadly classed as ionic and nonionic. So just keep that in mind.

I think if one views this more as a basic organic chemical extraction in which one is trying to remove everything except vinyl, it becomes easier to conceptualize.
11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 496
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 18
Post ID: 12272
Reply to: 12265
Drying of sounds with soap
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
I can only say it seems "as if" either something gets removed that should not have, or something gets left behind that should not have.  I can think of no better word than "dried up" to describe the sound of the detergent-washed LPs I have listened to.  And, yes, I've tried "OxyClean", too.
I will be interested, Paul, to see how the Dawn experiment goes.

I never experimented too much with detergents like this because it caused what I can describe as a "transparent underwater sound" effect. The noise was cleaned away and the records had an increased level of detail, but the music was activated in an odd way and it seemed that edges that shouldn't have been round were round  and there were angles that shouldn't be there. This was rather subtle, but I think this is what you are talking about?

Purely guessing, I always attributed this to the detergents cleaning away every last bit of mold release compound and such, but the microscopic areas getting filled with surfactants and wetting agents and spot eliminating compounds and such.

This was eliminated to a great deal by washing for five times with distilled water after the detergent step, but this was a lot of work. I achieved the same thing by using First cleaning agent, which cleaned the oily grime off and improved the transparency and richness of the music in a way that felt natural.

Adrian
11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,138
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 19
Post ID: 12273
Reply to: 12271
Worm's Eye View
fiogf49gjkf0d

Adrian, I am dying to know if you've used a stereo microscope as part of your [OCD...] record cleaning research, and if so, how what you've seen has added to your understanding.

I have so many questions about "before and after" appearances that I don't know where to begin.

It really puzzled me that the different commercial "detergents" I used made sonic problems.  I always thought the dishwasher "detergents", at least, should leave the vinyl alone and easily rinse off the record.  I made solutions, of course, and really tried to rinse them off carefully with "regular" and de-ionized H2O, and of course I used the vacuum to finish.  I also tried it with very warm as well as lukewarm H2O.  Any ideas what happened?

I'll bet we all want to know about the dreaded "mold-release" agents.

Also, what truth, and how important, the claims that "fungus" grows in the grooves?

Best regards,
Paul S

11-14-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,511
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 12274
Reply to: 12271
The “cleaning dancing” in the middle of everything.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, I did not have yet the promised to me “loosing virginity high-end record cleaning ceremony” and I might not in the same boat what you guys as I do not really know what you are talking about. What however I would like to ask you is the subject that bothers me the most: how can you determine that the record is cleanable?

What I mean: we buy a record that has a visually acceptable surface but has some noise.  You do the regular single wash to get rid the cockroach’s legs and dust from the record and it is still has some noise. The noise might be because many reasons: the residual direst that allegingly might be removed by your “better cleaning techniques”, it might be from the facts that the grooves were compromised by wrong, worn or improperly installed cartridges, it might be just faulty vinyl mass was used for this bath of records, or it might be one of many other reasons. So, my question is – how you differentiate the noisy record that might be cleaned and improved further and the records that are beyond the cleaning help. Are any of you come up with any more or less objective or demonstrable test that would recognize the noise as some kind of special noise that might be cleaned?

The reason I ask is because I have to admit that I do not like cleaning records. I know that some people like the ritual itself and I in fact remember that in my youth I did enjoy, or at list die not object the records cleaning. Nowadays I do not find the records cleaning as a stimulating procedure. My cleaning machine is loud and sound horrible.  It breaks the whole intimacy of record playing. The most I hate is what I need to flip a record to another side and recognize that it needs a cleaning. So, I need to do all that “cleaning dancing” between the first and second movements of Saint-Saens Second Piano Concerto? That sucks, and I prefer to play it on dirty…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  Stop buying the records cleaning fluid?..  I think it is all about oil....  Analog Playback Forum     3  19318  09-28-2008
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  418469  01-21-2006
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