| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Audio Discussions » The Classical Music Café syndrome... (44 posts, 3 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 2 of 3 (44 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ways to use audio methods...  Classical Music and Video lines....  Playback Listening  Forum     10  63367  07-11-2006
  »  New  The high-end audio, as it should be...  My prediction about it in 2020....  Off Air Audio Forum     3  32745  03-15-2008
  »  New  My today’s views on LP culture and my audio habits...  Russian duo-pianists Vitya Vronsky and Victor Babin pla...  Analog Playback Forum     24  104907  08-18-2008
  »  New  Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..  Re-set...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  36736  07-24-2006
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Reggie
Posts 13
Joined on 05-08-2008

Post #: 21
Post ID: 10695
Reply to: 10694
A Classical Cafe for the West Coast
fiogf49gjkf0d
I would certainly be the sort to frequent such a place as the Classical or Jazz Cafe.

Regarding Mr. Hwang's implementation; even through the computer replay medium, I hear the quality of this horn implementation, and I'm inclined to believe it sounds wonderful in person. The large bass cabinet's shape somewhat resemble the JBL 4550A system my friend is implementing in his house.
 
Personally, I would much prefer the Maconda Acoustic Suspension system, despite not having heard it.

One another note, thanks Romy for the link I found to Yoshi's beautifully expressed piece on the Jazz and Classical Cafe of late 1960's Tokyo.
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 10696
Reply to: 10695
With a good business model I think it might be sustainable.
fiogf49gjkf0d

The interesting is that with a good local FM classical stations and a VERY good program director the historic listing event are alley three.  The audio-café is the same thing but there one can cash out the liquor license and a good cooking. The whole notion of café-style listening sessions might be even a lucrative business, at least for beginning what the idea might be presented to public as a “kinky” novelty. It might use the NPR model as well, I would not mind to sponsor them.

A few years back when some events lead me to an old dying guy with a full storage of thousands 15ips master dubs I was playing in my mind with a concept of having as a public establishment when the reels might be exposed to public. Interesting that it made me to think at that time what kind sound system this cafe would need to power a 2-4 thousands sq feet. It was very much not what Camerata does as Camerata more strikes me as very unfriendly space fully dedicated to a celebration of audio kitsch.

In an audio cafe I would look for a different level of sociable unity between playback and listening whole. Most likely I would hide and declared playback with plants and painted decorations. The Camerata feels like school auditorium, and even on this chip video it sounds horribly reverberating, this flat wall was a ”brilliant” solution, but as we know the WE wavers do not reflect… Anyhow, I more invasion the “right” design for an audio-café as garden with small “random” table then a cafeteria.

I wonder if the classical audio-café as a notion exists in today’s America.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Reggie
Posts 13
Joined on 05-08-2008

Post #: 23
Post ID: 10697
Reply to: 10696
Kitsch
fiogf49gjkf0d
Mr Hwang's implementation is compelling, but overall, being hyper-critical, it feels just a bit austere. Kitsch? Perhaps, but a theme is an excellent device to draw people in. The music/musician and historical/cultural context connection would be, I think, a fascinating and compelling theme. Visual cues that evoke a period, a sound, people... But, there are a lot of 'punters' out there who will definitely be facinated by the audio part of it too.

Challenging Yoshi's point of view of why would people bother to listen to a sound system rather than the real thing - It is likely the facination of such life-like and compelling sounds coming from a system that is an or maybe the 'x' factor.  Intuition tells me something along these lines would go down very well among certain types of people - a lot of people. I mean Classical music is soul music, and mind music. I believe many people are looking for Classical music, they've just never really heard it before. 

Suppose, the Classical Cafe becomes popular, would it not be feasible to incorporate a once weekly program of chamber musicians, pianists and singers? If you remember the film about Caruso, starring Mario Lanza, it was common then, as it is now (for other music types) that unknown but highly talented artists seek to showcase their talents to eager listeners. In fact its somewhat common that unknown artists pay the venue for the opportunity to perform their work in front of a good crowd (although I don't agree with the notion charging artists). My sister is a classical violinist (Mariana Sirbu's pupil first in Florence, then in Germany). She's garnering a strong reputation in Europe performing formal concerts, but through the years she's also done some informal type performances with quartets - it benefits the artist as well as the listener to have this experience.

I think its a good business concept.
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Reggie
Posts 13
Joined on 05-08-2008

Post #: 24
Post ID: 10698
Reply to: 10696
The Cat's Classical Cafe
fiogf49gjkf0d
With 'The Cat's' reputation in the audio community, why not take advantage of that (for the good)?. The Cat's trademark is enough to draw people in from the audio world, and from there the regular punters (non audio enthusiasts). 

If costs were controlled, and the operation run very efficiently, it would likely be a critical success financially I believe.  The Cat's Classical Cafe (Or Romy's Classical Cafe). I don't think it would be absolutely neccessary to have a liquor licence, at least not to begin with, although it certainly wouldn't hurt. French (who can argue that french cuisine is not the finest in the world?) and Russian food - not elaborate meals but more basic scrumptious fare. The sign is the sillouette of a cat...

Reggie
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 10699
Reply to: 10698
The driving principles…
fiogf49gjkf0d

Reggie, let to be clear that I use definition of kitsch in reference to audio installation. The Camerata as a cultural event is out of my criticism; in fact I applauded to what they did. The Camerata video did not bring me to the idea of perceiving the Camerata as kitsch, but what Joe showed up and posted those pictures with multi-layered of conflicting accumulation of speakers, amplifier … or better let call it “items” then was disappointed. Surely those “warehouse inhalation” is educational to study the audio archeology and somebody like Cogent‘s Steve Schell would have a multiple orgasm right there. However, for the people with applied interest in audio Results what I saw on the pictures appears too ridicules to take it serious. Who the hell need to dean a racing care with multiple steering wheels even though the each steering wheel change the car direction is different way? Does the fact the a designer put in a car 213 steering wheels means that he just do not know how to make the car to operate properly only with one wheel?  No, no, no, apparently the people who “could buy Romy the Cat with loose pocket money” have a different driving doctrine….

Another few point I would like to make. I did not mean the liquor license literally but used it allegorically. However, in what you say I said I see some inspiration in this direction. If the Classical Café Americana would exist then it might be fun to serve food in therewith accordance to the music was played. Do you know what kind soup comes along with the late Beethoven quartets? What king cake would be a better mach to Brahms played by Japanese orchestras? Or perhaps how to brew the real coffee that might be serves with Schubert's earlier lied performed during WW2? I am sure the guests would not mind to pay more juts for the opportunity to experience the selection of the “interesting cuisine”.

I have many ideas; some of them too advanced or too moronic what might be done in there but at all serve-serving entertaining and would hardly see any practical rendering.  Oh, yes, one more thing – there is no such a thing as “Russian food”…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
yoshi
Jefferson (MA), United States
Posts 69
Joined on 05-04-2005

Post #: 26
Post ID: 10700
Reply to: 10699
Basic cost estimate
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't know much about the US situation, but here's some realistic estimate to maintain such business in Tokyo.  Of course it depends very much on the size and location of the space, but let's assume it's in downtown Tokyo (I don't go into the size because that's a completely different issue in Japan and the US).  Beside the initial investment for re-decoration, furnitures, sound proofing and audio gears, I estimate the monthly rent as around $5000 if it's in a convenient downtown location.  I need at least one person handling the system and serving customers.  Depending on the open hours, what you serve and how many customers you expect, it can be 2 or more.  Let's say 2 employees, costing $12/hour, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week and it comes down to another $5000 almost.  There will be a cost of food/drink too.  Let's assume that I'm serving soft drinks and light food only and the cost of stock per month to be $3000 (this is bogus because it all depends on the number of the customers too).  Plus another couple of thousand for utilities, maintemance, etc.  So it comes down to minimum of $15,000 without my own profit.

I can probably get away by charging $8~10 for a cup of coffee or soda in that kind of cafe.  To make $15,000, I need to serve 1,500 to 2,000 drinks.  That's 60~80 drinks/customers a day (EVERYDAY!).  This is a very, very tough (almost impossible) number for such a place in today's Tokyo, no matter what type of music I play, and it doesn't include any profit for myself!!  In '60s, those Jazz Cafe catered average of over 100 customers everyday.

Of course, this is the calculation of the most basic model and the numbers would vary vastly if the settings are different (what I serve, whether I combine other venue like CD store, etc.).

So unless I'm a multi millionare and need to spend some money for tax or whatever reason, I can't risk myself on it.  Is there an equivalent of Mr. Hwang in Boston area?

Yoshi
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Reggie
Posts 13
Joined on 05-08-2008

Post #: 27
Post ID: 10702
Reply to: 10700
Revenues
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yoshi dear sir, I loved your piece on Naru. 

I'm no business whiz. So anything I say about this - its ok to just laugh then ignore it.

The basic fare; coffee, foods, liquors, yearly memberships perhaps -  
Alcohol in one form or another always makes money. The game changes of course, if you buy the property instead of renting it. Given the crashing commmercial property values, its a feasible proposition worth investigating. After all, if this business doesn't work out, the space might be used differently.

From 10am - 4pm, Cafe: Each customer pays $3.00 for coffee and $1.50 for refills. As a 'regular' coffee shop during this time, ther'll be a decent amount of traffic (if the location is right). A survey of other coffee shops in the area should be done to determine traffic/spending trends. A survey like this is so easy, because a few people can take turns - buy a cup of coffee and sit there near the counter making note of how many and what. Lets assume the following:
Average day Mon-Fri: 200 people - way too conservative judging by my local coffee shops but lets just say 200: at $5 per person (coffee, refill, cake) - $1000 per day (or $24k per mo.)

From 4pm - 6pm, 'Happy Hour': Start to serve alcohol and appetizers. Punters show up regularly when the price is right. Assume the following:
Average day Mon-Fri: 40 people - again super conservative ( I like happy hour so based on my experience) with a few drinks ($4 ea) and appetizers ($5 plate) averaged out to $13 each person - $520 per day -$12.5k per mo.

From 6pm -10pm, 'Dinner' Must be a member- perhaps with designed programme on occasions, such as discussions/lectures, live chamber music -
Average evening Mon-Fri: 40 people - think this figure is conservative - food (not fancy but carefull thought of - as Romy says, for the specific musical programme) and drinks and or cofee averaged out to $15 per person - $600 per day - $14,400

Total here is approx 51k revenue per month - not huge, but I think these figures are conservative if your in a major metropolitan area. I firmly believe the prices should be very reasonable to keep people coming in.

Location is key, and a carefully managed marketing programme also.

dunno, but I still think its a great idea - the underlying theme and purpose is so compelling... 

By the way... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cuisine
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 10703
Reply to: 10700
Yoshi, you are very much wrong.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 yoshi wrote:
I don't know much about the US situation, but here's some realistic estimate to maintain such business in Tokyo.  Of course it depends very much on the size and location of the space, but let's assume it's in downtown Tokyo (I don't go into the size because that's a completely different issue in Japan and the US).  Beside the initial investment for re-decoration, furnitures, sound proofing and audio gears, I estimate the monthly rent as around $5000 if it's in a convenient downtown location.  I need at least one person handling the system and serving customers.  Depending on the open hours, what you serve and how many customers you expect, it can be 2 or more.  Let's say 2 employees, costing $12/hour, 8 hours a day, 6 days a week and it comes down to another $5000 almost.  There will be a cost of food/drink too.  Let's assume that I'm serving soft drinks and light food only and the cost of stock per month to be $3000 (this is bogus because it all depends on the number of the customers too).  Plus another couple of thousand for utilities, maintemance, etc.  So it comes down to minimum of $15,000 without my own profit.

I can probably get away by charging $8~10 for a cup of coffee or soda in that kind of cafe.  To make $15,000, I need to serve 1,500 to 2,000 drinks.  That's 60~80 drinks/customers a day (EVERYDAY!).  This is a very, very tough (almost impossible) number for such a place in today's Tokyo, no matter what type of music I play, and it doesn't include any profit for myself!!  In '60s, those Jazz Cafe catered average of over 100 customers everyday.

Of course, this is the calculation of the most basic model and the numbers would vary vastly if the settings are different (what I serve, whether I combine other venue like CD store, etc.).

So unless I'm a multi millionare and need to spend some money for tax or whatever reason, I can't risk myself on it.  Is there an equivalent of Mr. Hwang in Boston area?

Yoshi

Your “wrongness” derives from the fact that you are under a mistaken presumption that the Classical Audio Café shall be some kind of all week-long operation institution. Any person with any sane sense of business would tell you that it will never happen. Furthermore from the perspective of contain of materials that might be played in the Classical Audio Café of my version you would never find enough worthy materials of right sonic and artistic quality to sustain a week-long operation.

When I spoke about the Classical Audio Café I did not mean that a dally eatery but rather a recursive sequences of audio performing events in a given installation. How frequently you go to Symphony Hole? Well, your exposure to audio performing events shall be treated with the same respect, have the same price and to deliver to you equitable gratification as a live performing event. The difference is that an audio performing events is a guaranty of a great performance, I am taking about the supper performances….

I am sure no one interested to play in there the CD, LP or tapes that are available and know by heart. The whole idea is to play something unique that has a limited public exposure – so the source of material is super important. Think about it in context of those posts:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=10502

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=6917

I truly am taking about very different level of audio events then the rich guy bought a lot of WE, piled them up in a one room and invite Joe the Palmers to make phonographs with the “interior”. Do you know that Boston has Symphony Transcription Trust where they store master tapes of all performances of BSO from 1946 I believe. Many people who use to form in 70 and 80 with classical FM stations accumulated some amassing recordings, let to have THAT exposed. I am taking about having an access to THOSE archives and to play some very exiting concerts that never ever were re-broadcasted. It would be fun to put a very good sound reinforcement system in Boston Symphony whole and to try to play audio in there. Still, it is about the material. Look at the Harvard Film Archive.

http://hcl.harvard.edu/hfa/

It is a peaty elite establishment. They are not dally establishment and I do not think that they are hugely profitable. Still, 4 events per month in Classical Audio Café, with all bloom of upscale food, perhaps with period dress and pricey admission is might be interesting.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 29
Post ID: 10706
Reply to: 10694
Classical Audio Café - alternate take
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy wrote:

"When I spoke about the Classical Audio Café I did not mean that a dally eatery but rather a recursive sequences of audio performing events in a given installation."

I really like the Classical Audio Café concept.  Especially if it were open only occasionally, with top-tier "performances," and matching themes, such as food (great idea), perhaps without going overboard, some relevant artwork and a brief historic presentation which could be in the form of a handout or brief interjections from a passionate historian.  

Opening a stand-alone business every day would be a non-starter in the US from an economic standpoint (might work in Manhattan if you could find a large space free of charge).  Regardless, daily "performances" would become a bit more mechanized, less special than occasional ones.

More importantly, the Classical Audio Café could have a great cultural impact if we step out of the capitalistic framework.  How about linking up the concept with a university or several universities.  If you pitch the idea correctly there is some reasonable space available for free at universities and students willing to volunteer or work at a reasonable fee.  Here in Boston, the Berkeley School of Music, Harvard and Northeastern come to mind, each for different reasons.  The abandoned WGBH building Harvard recently purchased could house several cafes simultaneously...

Challenges would include promotion and logistics (lugging equipment around); as always, there is an abundance of students looking for these types of excuses to stay away from the library.  University catering teams could help with the food and beverages, and the university would keep any profits (I mean losses!).  

Getting reasonable sound would be an entirely different beast, however...

06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Reggie
Posts 13
Joined on 05-08-2008

Post #: 30
Post ID: 10707
Reply to: 10706
Too Serious?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy your explanation brings to mind the Cinematheque Francaise-esque (started by the estimable Henri Langlois in the 20s-30s). The Cinematheque Francaise was established to save films from destruction, especially during the Nazi occupation of France, where Monsieur Langlois saved many films that would have otherwise been destroyed by that regime. A 'club' for enthusiasts evolved from this lasting well into the 60s I think, where they would view sometimes never-before-seen films generally only once. Many famous directors and film icons such as Francois Truffault, still students, learned much attending meetings of this club.

Nobility is all dandy and everything. But profitablity and sustainability is tricky to acheive in this context.

Wouldn't it be more difficult to make what you describe above a sustainable profitable business? Niche to the extreme, so a very limited potential customer base I would think. On the other hand, the original concept by Mr. Hwang, albeit with some variations, is very appealing to a much broader segment of the poulation. A Naru-like cafe in some major US cities would be in-spots and I would be a frequent visitor if there was one here locally, and I know many others that would too -

reggie
06-03-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 10709
Reply to: 10706
Getting reasonable Sound in that ‘café’ ….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 

 scooter wrote:
Getting reasonable sound would be an entirely different beast, however...

This is very much true and even it is an audio centric-site I kind of was avoiding this direction as I would like to keep the thread in musical section of this forum.

It is unquestionable that Sound itself would be very much a valuable commodity in the whole idea and it is unquestionable in my mind that to accomplish the noble sound the whole bucket of Macondo’s ideas shall be employed. The simpletons are looking at Macondo as at a collation of horns and driver and truly have no idea what they look at. They are accustomed that people in audio do brainless actions with no well-defined objective or intentions. Macondo is very far from it and whoever is done there is very much not an accident, as I stated in the end of the Macondo’s page:

“What is also important to mention is that Macondo Acoustic System is not a design that I advocate as a “winning design” (….). The Macondo concept is not the collection of drivers, horns and frames; it is not the specific implementation – you will not be able to see what Macondo System is all about until you understand the correlation between what it meant to do and what it does. The Macondo System is rather a concept, a winning sequence of conscious ceremonial realizations and actions that lead a person from taking a room and converting it into a sensible and involved medium of musical intercourse.”

So, in the proposed Classical Audio Café it shall be own “sequence of conscious ceremonial realizations and actions” and the “Macondo” over there might be very different – with respect to what that environment and that listening condition would demand.

That is one of the reasons why I found the Joe Roberts’ report about the Camerata so annoying and so under-qualified to take it seriously. It might be fun to sit with Mr. Hwang and to discuss what, why and how was done with respect of what was accomplished but in the   Joe’s cheerleading word there is no “what, why and how” but there is only the absurd hysteria about the Original Western Electric scenario. Joe is running with his unconditional WE obsession as it is some kind of universal audio dildo. I do not know if it comes from luck of sane experience or a lock of understanding of the objectives of the game – I think both. Therefore Joe’s “review” of Camerata installation from the level of 6Moon’s intelligence gives to Camerata a bad publicity in my eyes.

I would be very interested to see a playback installation in Boston Symphony Hall.  Playing in there the SoundMirror’s masters of greatest historic BSO performances would be VERY interesting experience; I wish BSO would envision this. The Symphony Hall is not ideal for audio environment and the playback installation would be removable that would make the cost of the playback double or triple and in a way compromised. A better location might be found…

A few years ago I read the Sviatoslav Richter’s dairies where he described he dally sensations from listening different performances. It was superbly interesting but the most remarkable in that was the he recognized in his comments absolutely no difference between live performances he attended and recordings. I think that this concept might be taken a bit further…

The Cat

PS to Reggie: The Russian cuisine does not exist, I did not read what the Wikipedia said – I do not need to. Any culture has a Peasant and Royal cuisine.  What we are taking about not just “food” but about cuisine then we automatically imply the Royal food. Italian cuisine is not pizza that is in a way Italians peasant food but rather much more dignified cooking. The Russian peasant food and peasant cuisine is garbage that is very much not interesting. The Russian royal food , or something that is known around the world as Russian cuisine is in fact French cuisine with less sophisticatedly cooked meals, more fat, larger potion and less accent to the presentation of results.  In 17 century when Peter the Great modernized and transformed Russia from 12 century tribal idiocy into more or less civilized modern country the great influence of western minds was inflowing into Russia.  Italian architects, French cooks, Holland painters, British engineers, German scientists, French theaters have become for the next 2 centuries a dominating force in Russia and they very much made override to a great degree the Russian native tendencies. In 19 century it would not be very uncommon among reach familiars that chidden were educated in multiple languages. If I am not mistaken Tchaikovsky at age of 5 was fluent in French as much as in Russian. Even the “modern” privileged people of the “bleu blood” were not exception – Stravinsky, Nabokov… Actually Nabokov if I am not mistake spoke English before he spoke Russian – those people can afford it spiritually. – I love Russia of 19 century!  Anyhow, the point of all of it is that Russian cuisine is very much not Russian. You can spice French food with some boutique products that grow in Ukraine or China and it will be pretty much it…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-20-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 11136
Reply to: 10509
A few more videos from a few days back.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Got emails with a few more videos that were shot a few days back in the Camerata music cafe. Upon watching them there are three “discoveries” I made about the musical café idea”

1)      Use only plastic or paper eating appliances
2)      Bolt down the chairs and stools to floor or make them to move silently
3)      Get rid of blenders, espresso-machines and the rest kitchen appliances from listining area






"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-11-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 15997
Reply to: 5069
A playback for Classical Music Café’s.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Once in a while I am talking with different people about my Classical Music Café idea. This morning was one of those mornings and my long standing wet dream got redirected for another 5 minutes. It will be nothing that will come from this morning conversation but it gave me an interesting opportunity to fantasize about audio.

So, what happen if my Classical Music Café idea comes to reality and somebody employee me to handle Sound for the event? Unquestionably the Sound shall be good and most likely way beyond to what PA systems can handle. The playback needs to be portable, DJ style, light and respectable. If the Classical Music Café some to reality then it most likely will be weekly event, renting space in some kind of church or castle.  

The front end playback is not complicated. Most like it might be digital front-end playing 24 bit files. However, what architecture of acoustic system/ amplification might be used? To sound reinforce a room of 50-150 people is a very different animal  then having a playback the serve just sweat spot. I have seen some very-very high-end pro sound reinforcement systems and they were not as bad as we uselessly think about them. It would be for sure very different scope of problems and observations then what I have now. With all my fantasy I do not have a clear picture what kind playback I would offer for Classical Music Café, but I find it stimulating to think about it.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 19201
Reply to: 5069
Seoul man´s cave
fiogf49gjkf0d

Somebody sent me a link with the Seoul gentlemen who have those piles of WE gear.

http://blog.silvercore.de/blog/2013/02/01/man%c2%b4s-cave/#more-739

It is interesting warehouse-like looking space that more reminds me Home Depot then listening environment. Anyhow, looking at the pictures the feeling that I got was that all those pile of equipment are not truly operational. I am sure they are functional but not look to be really operational.  The guy who owns all of it obviously has money and for him would not be a problem to build one listening room for himself where he has one single  set of his collection where he would listening his music.  I do not see it happens. The warehouse depicted at the picture is not perfect listening environment and not particularly pleasant. So, were is the creme de la creme of that WE setup and where is the author’s expression of audio?  There is no doubts that WE  did some interesting steps but there is a huge difference between collecting horns, drivers and amplifiers and be able to make all of it to work as one well organized artistic impressions. The system owner then need to learn how to consume that artistic impressions but that is a whole another story….

The point that I would like to make is that from the images I have seen I do not see anything else in that Seoul gentlemen then WE gear collector, or the person whose audio interests exists primary to feed the interests of marketing whores of Joe Roberts types. I might be wrong but truly do not see how a person who has his own advanced objectives in sound reproduction and has means to address it would not go for it. It would be like a woman who loves shiny stones but who buy diamonds and then cover them with roofing compound.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 35
Post ID: 19202
Reply to: 19201
True ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

.... to feed the interests of marketing whores of Joe Roberts types.....

The Cat


... all that is based on High end Show Germany, Munich with the Silbatone demos (Joe Roberts, WE Horns...) there you can find all those DIY Idiots from Germany who think they are the center of the world. There is another link available in Germany, to make the Story short, Mr. Barske (Editor from a German analog Magazine), Mr. Schroeder..Mr. Schick (Both Tone Arm "Manufacturers" or whatever) and so on. You saw them all in the Silbatone room with Mr. Roberts. Anyway, Schick and Schroeder built Turntables for that Demo, probably that was the reason why the Demo was noticeably better with digital source....




Kind Regards
Stitch
04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 36
Post ID: 19204
Reply to: 19202
You need to differentiate
fiogf49gjkf0d
the cynical whores whom don't believe in what they doing from the ones which do. Joe Roberts happens to always have expressed his W.E love and bias ever since the dawn of "Sound Practices" so I don't see his involvement in Silbatone as a "whorish sellout" or anything like that . I have a pleasure to belong to a forum sponsored by obscene Microsoft whore and I don't see any problem even though if the mentioned organization would drop dead in this very moment
I'd say .."God speed motherf...r.   
Stich , your own complains about aforementioned arms (Schroeder mostly)  was "no highs , no lows " . Pretty primitive way to judge a product
from a sophisticated listener like yourself. Since you seem to have unlimited budget , get the arm (I'm pretty sure Frank will loan you one for free )
and do a page write up instead of relying on third hand opinions.
PS . Setting  a good analog based demo is little more difficult than digital one , you know that very well , so why the bias??

Roman maybe it's time to drop " bad boy , bad language" facade ? Aren't you getting too old for that ? You know , only Cow doesn't change it's
ways ..  
Warm Regards, Wj

04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 37
Post ID: 19205
Reply to: 19204
Third hand opinions ...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Wojtek wrote:
  
Stich , your own complains about aforementioned arms (Schroeder mostly)  was "no highs , no lows " . Pretty primitive way to judge a product
from a sophisticated listener like yourself. Since you seem to have unlimited budget , get the arm (I'm pretty sure Frank will loan you one for free )
and do a page write up instead of relying on third hand opinions.
PS . Setting  a good analog based demo is little more difficult than digital one , you know that very well , so why the bias??

Yes, you are right, I can afford any Arm and I had a Schroeder Reference Arm (when I remember right, the most expensive version) for comparison, same table, multiple Armboards for comparison with Graham, Triplanar, SME V, DaVinci, Kuzma Airline and some others, identical cartridge, identical Playback System. It is a copy from an Well Tempered Arm with a wood tube on a string. An Arm which is guided from a cartridge instead the other way. Knowledge about Design? Please, he discovered that there are endless idiots out there who really believe that a piece of wood on a string is worth 7k. After a while he must believe in his abilities, when people wait 1 year, pay full price and rave it ....  that's normal. I have no problem with that. Even the worst units have a Fangroup somewhere. And he wanted the money onto the account from his Mom when I remember right. He cheated the government to avoid to pay income tax. Bastard, when he thinks that there are only idiots out there. I hate these guys.
I need nothing for loan, I don't kiss anybody's ass. I buy it, when it is good I keep it, when it is not good enough, I'll sell it. Some don't learn because they like this game, I work for my money and I am able to understand what I hear. Of course it is not shared from everyone, that is normal, but I don't care. After all those years I can sum up probably one realization: Idiots will find automatically together. Don't ask me why, but they are always in groups. But I am fair, there are others who believe that a piece of wood on a needle for 17K is the way to go ... High End has its own rules :-)But don't you think that using the brain is also a way to separate a good design from a mediocre one? I also don't "like" something, I prefer "abilities", engineered ones, tested ones. A piece of wood and a knife does not really impress me.




Kind Regards
Stitch
04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 38
Post ID: 19206
Reply to: 19205
It's like in this joke
fiogf49gjkf0d
A guy enters highway upstream and listening to a traffic radio warning that one car is going upstream yells angrily ..."one ??? you fuc..ng  morons ?? .. there are hundreds !!". Over the years I was not able to dig up a single bad review of a Schroeder arm. Non from the reviewers and neither from users.
If there won't be one which thoughtfully sums up the arm abilities it will remain a reference arm, if not for anything else but a price tag. Which frankly is irrelevant . They all pretty much equivalent of a stick on a string made in garages and if they were anything less non of the Microsoft and the like "whores"
would  touch them. Lamm knows it , Wilson knows it and Schroeder knows it too. Since there are so many happy Morons sorry "Schoreder arm owners"
who frankly can afford high tech arms or just sold them to get in line for Schroeders there must be something appealing about the design. Since you familiar with it what do you think it could be ??
Sincerely , W


04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 39
Post ID: 19207
Reply to: 19205
Food for Omnivores
fiogf49gjkf0d
I agree wholeheartedly with Stich that there is nothing "behind the curtain" that "stands by itself" due to some inherent value.  As a Well Tempered (Reference) arm user, I always warn everyone who will listen that this arm is totally "over-damped" "in its native state", and it is not "plug-and-play".

Germane to Romy's post, it is very much the same with WE speakers (or, whatever...).  You can pile up as many of whatever items you can name without ever making Music in your home, even the very cool looking, $$$$$, WE Cinema/PA drivers and "Klangfilm" electronics.  In the case presented here, it is not like commuting to work in a new Carrera in bumper-to-bumper traffic, but it is like having a 1967 Carrera sitting on blocks in the garage.

Paul S
04-10-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 159
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 40
Post ID: 19208
Reply to: 19207
According to Stitch
fiogf49gjkf0d
 other  "super arms" (in terms of price ) do have  some  , "stand by itself" inherent intellectual value which Schroeder totally lacks. And also personal
prejudice seems to blind his objective judgement. Apart from that the question remains if the arm performs on the level of other arms in the price range or not. So far Stich is the only negative voice and with an attitude to boot.
As to the WE and other vintage I agree but I'm aware that such a systems make their owners pretty happy. After all  a vintage pile up
of Romy's Vitavox junk is not miraculously transformed into "something else" by the hand of the master. The inherent value is there , in the drivers. So the chance is that 10% of potential quality which WE owners are getting is completely enough to satisfy their needs. Which is fine with me.
W
Page 2 of 3 (44 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ways to use audio methods...  Classical Music and Video lines....  Playback Listening  Forum     10  63367  07-11-2006
  »  New  The high-end audio, as it should be...  My prediction about it in 2020....  Off Air Audio Forum     3  32745  03-15-2008
  »  New  My today’s views on LP culture and my audio habits...  Russian duo-pianists Vitya Vronsky and Victor Babin pla...  Analog Playback Forum     24  104907  08-18-2008
  »  New  Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..  Re-set...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  36736  07-24-2006
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts