| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Audio News» Michael Fremer Continuums… (55 posts, 3 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 2 of 3 (55 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Versa dynamics...  Analog Playback Forum     184  742208  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  388257  01-30-2006
  »  New  About reviewer’s qualifications and disqualifications...  Sad thing....  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  19836  06-21-2009
  »  New  Sensible record cleaning: vinyl piranhas and record Vas..  A nice video...  Analog Playback Forum     53  183638  11-07-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  When I see the crap like this thing…...  Analog Playback Forum     13  98018  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  11743  03-13-2010
  »  New  Swell New RIAA-Only Phonostage, Only $60k!!!..  Vitus...  Analog Playback Forum     8  36547  07-05-2010
  »  New  Bose audio and industry post-mortal ripples..  Michael Fremer can’t escape himself...  Audio News Forum     4  13334  07-20-2013
11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 3110
Reply to: 3109
I don’t blame Continuum but have some sour taste.

I do not know now many times 40 rpm it was. It was slower then necessary and I do not know, or care for how much. Also, nope, they did not blame anything and in fact after they measured the speed and confirmed that it was off they were very apologetic and immediately started to fix the problem.

Well, defiantly, many things that can go wrong with TT and I was not criticizing Continuum for running at wrong speed.  Hey, sometime even more nasty things happen! They just happen!  However I did question the seriousness of “it” if the Continuum folks were not able to acknowledge it. I know: now some kind of a typical audio-Moron will show up ay my site and will propose that we all hear differently, have different reference to tempo and a minor offset in the TT speed should not be audible if the offset it constant and do not fluctuate. Perhaps it is true for the Morons but when I see people WHO ARE NOT DEEPLY DISTURBED by this of tone and off tempo sound then I see the irrefutable evidences that those people never hear anything besides punk-rock or jazz on their turntables…

Rgs, The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 22
Post ID: 3113
Reply to: 3109
Re: Sorry you had trouble logging in to the Blog

hi mike

congratulations for your site, it is very nice, specially the showreports, the pics are great. i heard in july a avalon speaker in italy, with these ceramic drivers, they sound horrible. no dept and image at all.
so i really dont understant how these ultra expensive marten design speakers could sound good. and their price is just ridiculous. by reviewing such speakers, may more obectivity would not be bad.

angelo

11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Mike
Posts 4
Joined on 06-15-2006

Post #: 23
Post ID: 3114
Reply to: 3113
Re: Speakers that share the same kind of drivers do not necessarily sound the same
Hi Angelo,

Thanks for the kind words about our website.

Hmmmm... it is really difficult to make the sound of the Avalon speakers have no depth or imaging (I presume you are referring to the Opus or Eidolon? Their small Symbol speakers do indeed sound a little dimensionless and lean, but I do not think they have ceramic drivers) - but it can be done if someone tries hard enough, as you heard in Italy. Avalon speakers on the big VTL amps sounded really nasty as well.

It takes a whole system to generate any sound - good or bad - not just speakers. What were the rest of the components in the system in Italy? How were the speakers set up?

Although we like the sound of the Avalon, Kharma and Marten Design speakers, in well designed systems, which all use ceramic drivers - they all sound different from each other. And there are many, many speakers with ceramic drivers, some we may like, some we do not. Ceramic drivers can sound 'crispy' with a bad crossover - or if they are not broken in. Otherwise, their typical sound is 'tight and fast' hugging the signal they are fed very tightly in comparison with other driver technologies.

Anyway, we are enthusiastic about speakers and components we like. You may decide that you personally do not like what we like, and that is fine. But as far as basic attributes like depth and imaging - all of the stuff we like, and most of what we don't, can do a reasonably good, if not outright excellent, job at accomplishing these technical requirements. It is the additional qualities of a really great piece of equipment / really great system that is much more interesting and rare and difficult to describe and seductive.

Yeah, the price of the Coltrane Supremes is kind of, uh, high?... but it is worth it to us, and hopefully to someone else who wants this kind of performance. And everybody else is welcome to come enjoy a few hours listening to them - or, if they are too far away, read about them and try to vicariously enjoy things remotely - just like I get to read about and enjoy Romy's setup, being too far away to visit in person.

Hopefully you will get the hear the Avalon speakers in a better setup sometime. Not likely to be worse, huh?

Take care,
Mike
11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
angeloitacare-idiot
Aracaju (SE) Brazil
Posts 51
Joined on 09-15-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 3116
Reply to: 3114
Re: Speakers that share the same kind of drivers do not necessarily sound the same
hi mike

i heard the avalons at the factory of a manufacturer of wonderful tube amplifiers in italy, http://www.angstromresearch.com/pre_ita.html ( certainly these guys would make big success in the states, if they were able to produce more than 50 amplifiers a year )
 there are many factors, that determine the performance of a setup, but these valons really screwed up.
there is no speaker in the world that justifyesa price tag as the marten coltranes, and i dont know if these swedish
guys were able to sell  their speakers, even if there are many wealthy people in the states.
i saw that u deal with the acapellas. their credit is as they were the first to use round tractrix horns back in the late seventies, but their use of dynaudio drivers, and their price tag makes them not interesting at all. do u know bd - design
orpheans ? i got them 2 weeks ago. they improove quit a lot my sound, but i need to change also my electronics. soon i will buy probably a tube amp from diy hifi supply, http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_ladyday.htm
srajan ebaen will report abought this company soon.

regards angelo
11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 3117
Reply to: 3113
People, I warn you: grow up!

 angeloitacare wrote:

hi mike

congratulations for your site, it is very nice, specially the showreports, the pics are great. i heard in july a avalon speaker in italy, with these ceramic drivers, they sound horrible. no dept and image at all.
so i really dont understant how these ultra expensive marten design speakers could sound good. and their price is just ridiculous. by reviewing such speakers, may more obectivity would not be bad.

angelo

OK, angeloitacare.

If you are overlay emotional when you see a peace of audio and count not hold your excitement so much that you need to go online and express yourself then let it be. However, I would insist that if you wiling to express your emotions on my site then keep your single “immediate sentiments” connected to the subjects of the threads, at least partially. The subject of the given thread is Michael Fremer or Continuums turntable. What the hell your admiration over Marten Design or whatever else you expressed in your post has to do with Continuums turntable? I’m not wiling to moderate this forum or make any measures to enforce posting discipline. There are very few very simple rules on this site and they are outlined at the registration screen:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/User/CreateUser.aspx

There are pretty much there are no rules at all beside the DEMANDS OF FOLLOWING THE SUBJECTS OF THE THREAD. It’s it and it is not negotiatable.

Now. I do not want to see in this thread ANYTHG from you, angeloitacare, or  anyone else that would NOT related to the subject of the thread . Do not even replay with your agreement or disagreement! Just stop to post if it is not related to matter of the thread’s topic.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-09-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 26
Post ID: 3118
Reply to: 3108
Cost-conditioned acceptance
(Many) years ago (in a psychology class) I studied how baby ducklings were forced to follow a surrogate "mother" around a turntable, and an obstacle was placed in the duckling's path, so it had to jump over the obstacle to keep up with its "mother".  As sad as this scenario is unto itself, it is perhaps even sadder that the "researchers" found that the harder they made a duckling work to keep up, the stronger the bond the duckling formed for its phony "mother".

I must say the Continuum bears all the signs of a product so hard-won that anyone paying the price for it is almost certain to embrace it, for a variety of pre-cognative reasons, and I would include in the list of this TT's paramours its severally-distinguished designers.  I mean, how is a group like this to fail, and how can a product so gargantuan and profoundly out-of-reach not beckon to our innermost duckling?

I remember hearing the "best" vinyl playback I ever heard in my life... for the 5 minutes a Versa Dynamics TT worked before it went on a tangent (pun intended).  Or maybe I was responding to the distant thrum of the Celestial turntable,  hearing it just briefly before running headlong into the obstacle I might just barely have cleared in order to forge a bond with that Versa...

Sad to say, for all the hype, and for all the expense of all the ideas forged and brought to market, the worth of something in hi-fi is what comes out of it, not what went into it.

Paul S
11-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 27
Post ID: 3122
Reply to: 3118
Continuum-like TT exists BECAUSE the Framers-like

Well, Paul, a majority of audio Morons is that in their infinite chase for a “better” turntables approach the subject of turntables’ assessment using fundamentally faulty techniques. 
 
Let pretend, juts for sake of illustration, that a price of TT is directly relates to the TT’s Sound and a more expansive TT performs better, proportionally to the TT’s price, juts for sake of illustration…. Pretend a person has an average TT, let say the one that costs $1.5K. He spins the cords and he is happy. Then, a person listens a “noise” that analog people spread or read the thing that the Framer-like write and the person is ready to do “upgrade”…. What is VERY important that the person does not identifies for itself the Sonic problems with his current TT but instead got for another TT - a one that does not do “better” but juts sounds differently. Pay attention to what Framer-like do. They never identify problems with a current reviewing TT (or any other product they touches) but they/he only proposes some “differences” between a new reviewing product and some kind of deprecated product that does not need to be promoting anymore. Some people feel that Framer-like do it because their “marketing savvyness” but I do not feel so. The real reason why Framer-like-airbags do it is because they are completely ignorant in more or less civilized assessment procedures. The only real motivation for TT upgrade (or change of any audio component) should be a person clearly defines for himself what specific sonic shortcomings his current TT has. Then, ONLY AFTER THEN, a new TT should do nothing else but addressing those specific shortcomings.
 
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=432
 
So, the Framer came up with his “Continuum Messaahis”, but in realty in my eyes he did nothing but spoiled a subject of objections-loaded turntables. You’ve never seen Framer, or any other similar to him empty-head, complaining about a specific performance of his current TT… until they endorse a new model and then they sell to subscribing public the imaginary benefit of a new TT. Doing that, a reviewer suddenly discovers that his old TT had some issues with sound and “of course” the new TT “accidentally” addresses the problem. What actually in realty happiness - is that a reviewer conceives a set of artificial problems (juts for a sake of review) and then just cash out the “solutions of conceived problems” by proposing the new model.  Is very important to understand that a reviewer in this case is completely enslaved within a primitivism of own reviewing methodology. They write big words and try to sound cogent and intelligent but the core of it is that in the reviewing (as it exists today) when a review only intended to be written then the set of the “solutions of conceived problems” have already been pre-cashed. In this environment writing a review is juts dumping on the page a pile of word of to fill the page. That is why I seldom read review: becomes they are all writhen because the wrong reasons.

For instance the last TAS published Jonathan Valin’s observation about “competition” between Kuzma and Walker turntables. They both what is called “expensive” TT of the similar price-range and for an ignorant person the setting looks very reasonable: identically set up TT, the same needles, the same rest of the system (including a dead phonocorrector and insulting acoustic system) and so on. I also do not question the Jonathan’s desire to pick honestly the differences in sound that he was able to observe. However what Valin did I consider was a completely idiotic experiment, the idiotic enough to be conducted only by a reviewer of Jonathan Valin’s stature. Valin’s observation would be a valid entry at some like of AudioFederation blog but as a major article of a national publication and Valin’s journey looks... like …  all the rest Jonathan Valin’s doodles. If Jonathan Valin (or Fremer with his Continuum) are not able to take a “TT itself” and are disabled to say what the TT does wrong sonically then they have no business to write up for audio publications. Who the hell needs to read about the freaks comparing the sounds!?

Anyhow, the biggest problem is that they are not really understand with their short and limited reviewing minds the format in which their reviewing listening inelegance operates makes their observation about their turntables useless.  Therefore that hypostatical person with his “average TT” that I proposed above as an example is completely not served by the “Framerizm”…

A few weeks ago a have a friend of mine called me and told me that he has a change to “upgrade” his $5K TT to $15K. He named two well know to me models and asks my opinion. I asked his what is wrong with Sound in his current setup. The guy was throttled….

Yes, the Continuum is might be a good turntable but …what is wrong with SOUND of other turntables, the turntables that are not called “Continuum”? The Michael Fremer and rest writing clowns are not in position to handle this quest – they are too busy to sell turntables to the empty cretins like Mike Lavigne what whom Sound is a “Robb Report” of own mind. I am sure that the “simplified” Lavigne will be happy, the Fremer and the Continuum’s accountant will be happy…. However, the interests of Sound and the interests of the “person with an average turntable” still will not be affected. Yes, I would not be surprised if an “average turntable” (in context of proper reference points) would perform identically or better then the Valin’s or Framer’s “inventions”. But obviously those guys are disabled to see it, even if it was the case.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 3126
Reply to: 3122
The design continuum

Romy, I get your point that it seems like the best and most likely application of your evaluation ideas would be exactly the “high-end” designers and manufacturers we are met to disparage.  And this should be particularly true in the case of the Continuum, where, apparently, plenty of time, money and expertise are combined, supposedly just for the purpose of constructing a viable world-beater of a turntable.  While I admit that the arm/’table combination is probably the most difficult part of the hi-fi chain to get right, the Continuum endeavor has all the “right stuff”, in rote terms, as near as I can tell.  There should be nothing stopping these people from doing exactly as you suggest, trying the “best” of the competition and fining their data through listening trials to arrive at a turntable that does its job as well as can be. It is frustrating indeed that any ostensibly-well-organized endeavor such as this would route itself instead through the constricted anus of “The Marketplace” to deliver yet another genuine gold plated turd.

For all I know this TT is excellent; but there are a number of telltale signs that it is just another “big” TT that in terms of performance lands squarely amongst its overwrought, high-priced brethren. I admit that I am predisposed to suspect the worst since I have never heard especially good sound emanating from one of these behemoths – at least not for long, and so I have never seriously pursued one even though I have thought in terms of solving some of the problems these big TTs purport to address.

For one thing, I agree with mass for TTs -  to a point -  when, according to my observations, it becomes unnecessary or even undesirable, for simple, practical reasons, not least because spinning an 80 lb platter requires less-than-stellar-sounding motive force.  And likewise with the air bearings, which so far have done better on paper than in the field.  In all cases, apply Ockham’s Razor to any fat in the design.

Also, I have to say I am no less suspicious of that tonearm, which appears poised and ready to strike from its pivot like the serpent from which it derives its name.  All that mass rearing up over the stylus looks like trouble to me.

Call it an educated guess at best, but the Continuum *looks* to me like a triumph of industrial design, manufacturing method and marketing over purpose-driven evolution.

A costly product such as this definitely needs a “Launch” to “succeed”, so it is no accident that such products always come in through the Grandiloquent Front Door to fanfare and enshrinement by invested parties posing as critics.

God help me, but with that much riding on the financial success of the venture I might well do the same.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 3129
Reply to: 3126
If Michael Fremer was a filmmaker….

I do not want to dive seriously into discussion about Continuum turntable. I have not reasons or interest, not to mention that this thread is not about the Continuum turntable but rather about the primitivism and idiocy of the “gantseh makher” Fremer.

Clark Carpenter, in his brilliant film review "Simplistic Schlock for the Simple Minded" said:

"Saving Private Ryan" is typical Steven Spielberg fare: a big budget spectacle, bereft of style, filled to the brim with childishly heavy-handed moralizing and peopled with facile "characters" who exist only as cardboard cutouts for the ensuing morality play.… The problem with Saving Private Ryan is the problem with everything Spielberg touches. More broadly, it is the problem of the American commercial cinema. Lacking the courage of any real conviction, it cannot offer any challenge to its audience. Instead, it panders to that audience with easy answers, impressive effects, a soundtrack that booms and tinkles in all the right places and a nice mom's apple pie pat on the back for every red blooded American. What's missing is even the faintest glimmer of awareness that the world doesn't break down neatly into heroes and villains, cowards and the courageous, us and them. In the place of subtlety, it gives us spectacle, in the place of art, it delivers technically proficient propaganda."

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-11-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 30
Post ID: 3130
Reply to: 3129
An "impossible" task

I just ran across this quote from Mr. Fremer, circa 1999, and I doubt much has changed on this front:

"Sitting in my listening room auditioning this $3995 Premier 15 phono section from Conrad-Johnson—a process that I made sure went on for months!—I couldn't help but think of all of the phono sections I've heard and reviewed over the years, and how convenient it would be to have them all here to compare to the C-J. But I feel reviewing is not and has never been about making those kinds of impossible comparisons. While some readers would like to have a lineup and a hierarchy, that's an impossible task—and in any case, what might work best in my system might not in yours."

I said before that I believe some reviewers do not so much fail to constantly question and/or sharpen their methodology as they "honestly" hold to the notion that audio is pretty much various combinations of trade-offs so complex and unnerving that NO ONE could ever sort it out.  While this in no way alters your sharp observations on method, it does point, I think, to a not-so-disingenuous approach by at least some of the apparently deaf and lazy reviewers out there.  These "reviewers" OPENLY offer what amounts to nothing more than free association passed off as audio reviewing.

I actually still wonder if Fremer and his ilk really do experience "excitement" over a given piece of equipment, and then I wonder some more whether there are any well-founded bases for their enthusiasm.  I have not written off alll the reviewers so much as I have lost track of them.  I used to read some of them enough that when they said, "Zig", I knew to zag, etc., because there was at least some continuity expressed in their likes, dislikes and observations that enabled me to put them into my own context.  However, this has not been the case for some time now, and Fremer's main boss, John Atkinson, openly dismissed even the idea of an audio lexicon, along with any need for regulating or any means or method whatsoever of ensuring the mutual intelligibility and/or general significance of his reviewers' reviews.  And of course he knew and knows his "readership".

So who would not get lost when there is so little in the way of direction on the one hand or significant response on the other?

Clearly, you know something about Mr. "Framer" and his intentions, since you clearly got under his skin, which I would have supposed rather thicker than it turned out to be.

I thought your Fremer/Continuum pairing was genius because it was quite specific and at the same time generic, like the bullfighter's red cape.  When I segued it was my intent to more rigorously examine the putative manufactured object of your attention, but I went with the Continuum-like when I knew it was the Framer-like.

BTW, I still glance at Fremer's reviews in Stereophile, and once in a while I read one.

Best regards,
Paul S

11-18-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 3177
Reply to: 1957
How little I need to be happy and …. right

With great plessure and a deserved sense of appreciation I opened today the Stereophile and learned Continuum turntable was pushed by Michael Fremer to the “Product of the year”. I would leave aside even theoretical bogusness of the “Product of the Year” concept. In the realm where the Stereophile’s Morons lives there is not rational, applied purpose, journalistic cogency besides developing some cheap taking point for marketing avenues. Anyhow, they do what they do but in context of the given thread that is something that I would like to note: the price of the Fremerized Stereophile.

Stereophile elected the Continuum TT’s as the “Product of 2006” without regard that Continuum was hit market in 2004-2005. But at that time the Stereophile’s marketing whores did not share the Continuum's profit destitution and therefore, according the Stereophile’s logic, the Continuum TT did not exist.

Whatever the Continuum system does sonicly irrelevant to the given context… but do you know what happen when the industry “embraced” the product? Yes, you right –the price! (A few days ago I observing the BS that the industry created around Kharma loudspeaker I desisted to write a little essays about “Kharma in America”, I will do it when I have time and it will have a lot of common with Continuum’s pricing policy)

So, what the Industry did with Continuum’ price?  In one of my posts above:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/TreeItem.aspx?postID=3108

I have mentioned that I was communicating with an "industry player" who was considering becoming the Continuum’s distributor before the Fremer’s crap hit the fan. That industry player was VERY pricey and he was not one of those “Internet discounting junkies”. So, during those times when he was contemplating to take Continuum on, the RETAIL price for the Continuum’s entire system meant to be $40.000.00 ….  and it is including all necessary markups. (I would like to keep the Continuum’s wholesale price confidential - it is solely their business). So, what happen next? The "Sunshine Fremer and Co." popped up in the picture and the Continuum “Product of 2006” was announced at $99.500.00…

Nope, people. It is not about just prize – it is about justice. A next year, the few pages of BS that Mr. Fremer has written in his publication, those pages cost you, a customer, $60.500.00. It is  $60.500.00 that is taken out of each Continuum turntable and thay are $60.500.00 that do not worth anything.

Anyhow, as the result, the BS about Continuum is keep spinning, spinning, and spinning… this time at the right speed.  Defiantly it WAS the Stereophile’s “Accomplishment of the Year”

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-10-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 3470
Reply to: 1957
Michael Framer as audio leech... or Caliburn my tail.


The industry mechanism of making shekels on somebody stupidity works like clockwork.

When I last year I was writing my initial article of this thread about Mike Framer, kangaroo and the financial burden that all this industry cheerleading inflict I was very conservative about the estimate of the  Framer-like financial apatite. 2 years ago not-yet-sang-about Continuum was proposing at CES their new TT for sub 50K (after the deals markup). As soon the Framer undertook the company promotion the price went to $96K. I estimated in my initial post that it will be $65K but I was wrong. My apologues for misleading the public…

The story how the Framer got his Continuum TT and how much he paid for it was mysteriously discussed at the number of the sites. I do not know the Truth and I will not speculate. However, I can testify that a number of the manufactures (who produce very expensive products) told me privately that many reviewer get expansive items “for a review” (without paying) and do not return them. It is not the manufactures are is not benefited  -each reviewing whore LOVE to mention what he his new cable elevator that he is reviewing sound extremely good with his Wilson MAXX or to mention any another component from the list of the items that the reviewer DID NOT PAID FOR.) Interesting (and pathetic in the same time) but the reviewers even make money on trading of the reviewed equipment.  I know personally the reviewers who extort components from manufactures, pump them up in their articles, make the prices go up and then sell the component for premium price at used market under the mask of their parties. Then, after the sale, (it might be in year or two) the reviewer return a portion of profit to manufacture (they pay hugely discounted prices). Considering the tend of thousands dollars involved and large number of equipment going thought the hand some of them, believe or not, make a nice supplementary income, sometime 3-figures income.

Anyhow, this post is not about reviewing fantail ethics, which is no different then our dirt in US Congress, be about something else. Many years ago one of the industry heavy player educated me how to ride the fools in audio production. He told me that the “rule of sale” is following: make a big splashy product, create a lot of noise and publicity about it and inject into the consumer minds a notion that the product is “unreachable”. Then introduce to the market a cheap “hoi polloi” model, turning into cash out the publicity around the first “flashy” model. So, to my surprise Caliburn anointed their new “Criterion” turntable at $45K.  (For the readers in the “Their Countries” who read my site let me to explain: the $45.000.00 is a price of INEXPENSIVE turntable in America). Well, this step from the Caliburn was painfully predictable, Also it is predictable the upcoming review from the Mr. Framer… I know each and single work in that review,  you know it too…

Well, I would care less about all that Caliburn saga but there is of something that hidden behind all of it. What is hidden is that Michele Framer with all of his pomposity has very mediocre, close to very bad, sound in his listening room (I have numerous testimonies from visitors who were in his room and some of the things that he writes are very much support those testimonies, I personally never was in his place). So, if the guy has crappy sound in his room (in fact it is how it should be with any freak who shovel equipment like a deck of the cards) then should he be fired as the unqualified person? If you go to a driving school and see an instructor who can’s park a car without hitting a curve or when you see 330 pounds fineness instructor then you recruit him/her or show them the door? I feel that very same in audio. If the person is disabled to get interesting sound, regardless of what he does, then the person should not have rights to open his mouth about audio subjects. Practically it is true if his “lips movement” cost you money, a consumer.

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 3531
Reply to: 1957
Michael Fremer as an international terrorist.

It was 15 years ago. Michael Framer was sitting in his home, taping scotch over a small white box, crying and cursing God. “Oh, Gods who run Roma?!” – wept Framer – without knowing the true meaning of his question.

“Gods what did I do to upset you?!!! I regularly brought sacrifices and followed faithfully the rules of the reviewing religion. Why you did it to me, Gods. You left me no other changes then to become murderer!” With this world Michael Framer put the last turn of tape over the box, stack a little key on the side of the box, turned the key and mischievously smiled. Then the Framer placed a big postal label with Australian address atop of the box, and  satisfied with the result he put the box in his current mail….

Today is March 15, 2022 and I’m sitting today with Michael Fremer at the yard of Sing Sing Correctional Facility in Ossining, New York. My editor asked me to find among the Sing Sing prisoners the most ridicule convict and write up his story. When I asked then unanimously all Sing Sing’s inmates pointed me to Michael Framer.

“He is strange”, said Alex Boom, life-convicted 63 year old priest, for slicing 129 monastery nuns with gas saw. “He is strange because he is sitting in his sell all day long, staring at a water dripping out of water facet and wring epic ode about the facet.”

So, I met Mrs. Fremer. I’m sitting with Michael Fremer and asked him what made him during that fateful winter of 2007 to send 3 ponds of dynamite to Australasia.

“I was angry, I was angry liken never in my life” – Michael explained.

“I was an audio reviewer and my serves to the public was to explain to people what to do. I spent almost a year of my life taken one hungry Australian, who had unhealthy relationship with his kangaroo, and make him as celebrated turntable manufacturer. Then the table turned. In the winter of 2007 Goldmund announced their new Goldmund Reference II Turntable. It was expansive model that with price tag of $300.000.00. I immediately got one and in the spring of 2007 I published an article claming that $300.000.00 Goldmund Reference II sounds 30% better then the $100.000.00 Australian Continuum. After reading the article the Australian people got pissed and demanded me to pay for the TT that they have given to me. I did not have so much money. I was trying to raise cash by selling the Continuum turntable but unfortunately everyone knew that if it comes form my hands that it should sound like shit and therefore I was not able to get any money for it. The bills kept coming and the phone kept ringing. I decided that the one way out is to kill all those Australians freaks along with this ugly kangaroos and their money collectors. I put 3 pounds of dynamite to a box and mailed it to the Australians. Yes I know, it was stupid but what else could I do? BTW, I see that you are recording our conversation. You know, I know 4393 ways to make this recoding to sound better…”

I said to Michael that I do not need the recoding to sound better. For my purpose I record words but not the words sound and what I had already was enough for me. I wished to Michael Fremer good lack and expressed gratitude for his honest story. I left the Sing Sing and whale I was driving I was thinking… What I was thinking about? I was thinking about that wild kangaroo that jumps calls across Australasian bushes and that do not give a damn about nether turntables nor about the turntables criminal promoters.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 6514
Reply to: 3108
Continuum Turntable, Industry Cancer and CES 2008

The subject of this head is not the Continuum Turntable but rather the little frighten Moron with sentimental name Michael Fremer. It is important to note that Michael Fremer is not just a Moron own problems but the persons who is with his proactive idiocy vigorously ruin audio industry. A few years back I pledged to sabotage or despise any product that Fremer “helped  to destitution”, do you think it is because my attitude? Nope it is not my attitude but my experience.  I just know in what kind shit any product or company turn into as soon the Fremer’s metastases touches a product or a company.

A case for illustration.  4 years ago Continuum was lost in nowhere AU company with those Australian folks trying to do better turntables with the scope of own understanding. Then Mike Fremer took over the marketing of the Continuum, blowing his usual short penis attitude hype and making the similar to himself cretins to “endorse” the Continuum. As the result the Continuum got some momentum in the industry, got a chair at the table of audio feast and as a result (absolutely like any other audio company I have seen) the Continuum have apparently turn (sound-wise) into… any other company the Fremer’s metastases have consumed. I did not go to for CES 2008 but from quite reliable sources I heard that almost a dozen of different companies used the Fremer-sponsored turntable. So, what was in common among all CES vendors that used Continuum? Reportedly they all had extremely horrible analog sound and had digital options way better performing. Well, I was not there but it sounds about right to me. 3 successful years is the time that the stupid Hi-Fi industry needs to fuck up a regular company…

I think the phenomena shell have a special medial name and be listed at WebMD…

I hate to be right, again….
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-25-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 7290
Reply to: 1957
The Fremer and the LAST

This is kind of even funny. I was told that I need to buy the last Stereophile and to read how the industry cheerleaders vaseline the Magico guy. So I did buy it the magazine.

What was almost hilarious in the magazine was the lost in the slippery LAST paddles Mike Framer who does not knowledge and can not hear any negative difference between his raw record and the LAST treated records. I do not know what drives him to make such a statement. Perhaps if he extorts 55 gallons of LAST juice from the company then he would not be able to use and the fact alone makes his position about LAST too indifferent? Anyway, the point that I try to make is following: Why the hell a person, who do not recognize any positive of negative contribution of LAST, fancies himself as a belly baton of analog reviewing?

Oh, well…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-27-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 75
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 36
Post ID: 7292
Reply to: 7290
La plus ça change...
So the glossy magazines are pushing record treatment coatings-goop again?

More than 30 years ago a similar "LP preservative" called SoundGuard was billed in TAS as a "major breakthrough" in music playback technology. I bought into it (just like I bought Dahlquist DQ-10s on their review) and of course SoundGuard proved to be crap (introduced more record noise and other problems.) Is there no progress?

The DQ-10s were crap too (80 dB inefficient, fart-bass rolling off below 50 Hz, spitty piezo-horn tweeter) but that is off-topic. At least the Vintage Sufferers are not bidding up NOS bottles of SoundGuard on eBay...).
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
markus46
Posts 4
Joined on 07-29-2008

Post #: 37
Post ID: 7947
Reply to: 7292
Why so personal?

It's hard to know where to start...

I'd read a fascinating (and widely recommended) article about the importance of absolute speed stability in turntables. http://www.iar-80.com/page12.html

I'd also read Grand Prix Audio's white paper on their turntable where they also state their belief that absolute speed stability is the most important criteria in a turntable design.

Having previously read Mr. Fremer's review of the Continuum turntable, I thought I'd see what Continuum had to say on the subject.  If they felt they'd nailed the speed stability issue, then perhaps that would go some way to explaining the large jump in performance over previous designs that Mr. Fremer was hearing.

Some further googling turned up your post.  These are my thoughts...

This is in no way a criticism, but English is obviously not your first language.  Your posts are littered with spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors which make it difficult (for me at least) to understand what you are trying to say.  Perhaps this explains why Mr. Fremer thought you were mocking Continuum and himself rather than just himself?

If you feel that some (all?) of the hi-fi press is guilty of a litany of sins, then why not just calmly state you case, provide evidence and foster intelligent discussion on the topic?  Your post was not funny.  Your post was a personal attack that had an undercurrent of viciousness that I found despicable.

Despite claiming that you are not criticising the Continuum turntable, you go on to do just that in your subsequent posts!  For example “I have my doubts that Continuum team is able to manufacture Sound instead of rendering thier abstract mostly irrelevant design principles.”  Sounds like criticism to me!

I hope you don’t mind if I explore your comment further.  Let’s take one design principal mentioned by Continuum in their literature.  Speed stability.  Irrelevant?  You may not consider it to be the single most important function of a turntable, but surely you can’t say it’s irrelevant!  Another design principal – Isolation from external vibrations.  Seems a decent enough principal to me.  Can you please list for me those design principals that Continuum document that you feel are irrelevant?  As important is WHY you think they are irrelevant. Your credibility is at stake here.

At least they don’t claim that their platter can be manufactured with different materials to tune the sound for different amplifiers!  Or (get this) that the art of turntable design was the art of recognizing and managing emotions in materials.  What sort of dim wit would fall for that?  Oops!

In another Fremer & Co. bashing, you claim Fremer and his ilk “… are completely ignorant in more or less civilized assessment procedures. The only real motivation for TT upgrade (or change of any audio component) should be a person clearly defines for himself what specific sonic shortcomings his current TT has. Then, ONLY AFTER THEN, a new TT should do nothing else but addressing those specific shortcomings.”

Now this comment is just plain silly.  Firstly, the job of a reviewer is to write reviews.  Are you seriously suggesting that because a reviewer is perfectly happy with their turntable at home and can find no specific sonic shortcomings, that they should be disqualified from writing reviews of turntables!!!

Secondly, surely it is possible that listening to a new product may highlight shortcomings in existing gear - shortcomings that you never new you had.  It would be a very closed minded individual who (once happy with the performance of their music reproduction system) would shut out the possibility that improvement might just be possible.

Peace!
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,495
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 7948
Reply to: 7947
It is nothing personal, Sonny....

I always feel that whatever I say isn’t personal enough.

 markus46 wrote:
This is in no way a criticism, but English is obviously not your first language.  Your posts are littered with spelling, punctuation and grammatical errors which make it (for me at least) to understand what you are trying to say.  Perhaps this explains why Mr. Fremer thought you were mocking Continuum and himself rather than just himself?

I do not think so. It looks like you have  no difficulties to read it but even you, through all your difficulties, understood that that the initial post was the Framer mockery and use Continuum juts to serve the exotic Australian framework. It is not that my English was an impediment but the frame of the Framer’s dim mind. Here is where he does not need a criticism but lobotomy…

 markus46 wrote:
Despite claiming that you are not criticising the Continuum turntable, you go on to do just that in your subsequent posts!  For example “I have my doubts that Continuum team is able to manufacture Sound instead of rendering thier abstract mostly irrelevant design principles.”  Sounds like criticism to me!

.. and if you read the rest context of the thread then you might discover why I came up with this supposition. My site is not a republican talk-radio and there is need around here to pull taken out of context phases and try to advances your own agenda.

 markus46 wrote:
I hope you don’t mind if I explore your comment further.  Let’s take one design principal mentioned by Continuum in their literature.  Speed stability.  Irrelevant?  You may not consider it to be the single most important function of a turntable, but surely you can’t say it’s irrelevant!  Another design principal – Isolation from external vibrations.  Seems a decent enough principal to me.  Can you please list for me those design principals that Continuum document that you feel are irrelevant?  As important is WHY you think they are irrelevant. Your credibility is at stake here.

There is absolutely nothing at stake here and my reply is not attempt to claim my credibility.  The Speed Stability, the Isolation from external vibrations and many other things in the way how you appear used them are not the factors of design but the tradable commodities of marketing efforts. They do not sell to you the actual Speed Stability of the presumed results that derived from Speed Stability but they “sell” to you a collection of efforts that according to them implies alleged speed stability.

 markus46 wrote:
At least they don’t claim that their platter can be manufactured with different materials to tune the sound for different amplifiers!  Or (get this) that the art of turntable design was the art of recognizing and managing emotions in materials.  What sort of dim wit would fall for that?  Oops!

The “art of recognizing and managing emotions in materials” was a direct quote from designer of Micro Seiki, it was exactly what he told me, at least it was what was translated by my interpreter. What is interesting is all of it that I just present it as somebody else quote and ‘am not looking anyone who would “fall for it”. Is you are in a search to something to “fall for” then it sounds like it is your personal need…

 markus46 wrote:
In another Fremer & Co. bashing, you claim Fremer and his ilk “… are completely ignorant in more or less civilized assessment procedures. The only real motivation for TT upgrade (or change of any audio component) should be a person clearly defines for himself what specific sonic shortcomings his current TT has. Then, ONLY AFTER THEN, a new TT should do nothing else but addressing those specific shortcomings.”

Now this comment is just plain silly.  Firstly, the job of a reviewer is to write reviews.  Are you seriously suggesting that because a reviewer is perfectly happy with their turntable at home and can find no specific sonic shortcomings, that they should be disqualified from writing reviews of turntables!!!

Secondly, surely it is possible that listening to a new product may highlight shortcomings in existing gear - shortcomings that you never new you had.  It would be a very closed minded individual who (once happy with the performance of their music reproduction system) would shut out the possibility that improvement might just be possible.

Yes, what I stated above is one of the major postulates of my audio views:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

I do not disagree that other ways are possible, and externafication in some cases might bring positive results. Still the use of the externafication methods is a quite complex subject and I would like do not go into it, particularly because I feel that looking at the way how you think about audio it might be above your head (no condescending intended).

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
markus46
Posts 4
Joined on 07-29-2008

Post #: 39
Post ID: 7950
Reply to: 7948
A few tubes short of an amplifier?
 Romy the Cat wrote:

It looks like you have difficulties to read it but even your, through all your difficulties, understood that that the initial post was the Framer mockery and use Continuum juts to serve the exotic Australian framework.

No.  It was your subsequent clarification that made it clear.  The original post could indeed be taken the wrong way.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

My site is not a republican talk-radio and there is need around here to pull taken out of context phases and try to advances your own agenda.

My only 'agenda' is to take you to task for the drivel you write.  If you do a search for "fremer" on this site and look at the posts that you have written, it becomes clear who has the agenda.

 Romy the Cat wrote:

There is absolutely nothing at stake here and my reply is not attempt to claim my credibility.

I am rapidly concluding you have no credibility, but why not take a shot at it?  How about addressing the questions!

 Romy the Cat wrote:

The Speed Stability, the Isolation from external vibrations and many other things in the way how you appear used them are not the factors of design but the tradable commodities of marketing efforts.

What!?  Of course they are design issues!  A turntable manufacturer that did not address those issues would make a shitty turntable.

Of course if a manufacturer feels that they have done something special to address a design issue, then they should be free to tell us on their web site, white paper and other marketing materials. 

If a manufacturer believes they have tackled certain design issues in an innovative way, how would you suggest they tell us?  Or do you believe they should just stick to meaningless fluff about 'managing emotions in materials'?

 Romy the Cat wrote:

Yes, what I stated above is one of the major postulates of my audio views:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

I do not disagree that other ways are possible, and externafication in some cases might bring positive results. Still the use of the externafication methods is a quite complex subject and I would like do not go into it, particularly because I feel that looking at the way how you think about audio it might be above your head (no condescending intended).


Mate.  There is nothing complex about using your ears.
If you really believe that "the only real motivation for TT upgrade (or change of any audio component) should be a person clearly defines for himself what specific sonic shortcomings his current TT has. Then, ONLY AFTER THEN, a new TT should do nothing else but addressing those specific shortcomings", then the major postulate of your audio views is simply wrong. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

07-30-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,130
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 7951
Reply to: 7950
Tilting windmills
Markus46, you are not alone in getting the idea that much fun is made at others' expense around here.  But try reading on for a while and see if some of it perhaps starts to make sense as you expand your context.

So much of "Audio" is not only market driven, but it is plopped into a market that has been "pre-conditioned" to await and accept the current latest-and-greatest "break-through" or the solution-du-jour to the problem-du-jour, not unlike the pre-met-and-decided "fashions" for any given season, this by the "audio journalists" whose mission is precisely to SELL what they are given to sell.  Not a problem, I suppose, as long as everyone is aware of it; but at the same time, no real help, either. 

Perhaps at this point the Continuum looks to you like some Uber-'Table, who knows.  But I assure you that the price jump was exactly and specifically to pay for the drum roll that pronounced it U-T.

BTW, "cirteria" is the plural form of "criterion".  Lots of non-native English speakers here, some with PhDs, etc., and likely more than a few ADHD, etc.  If you are sensitive it is probably best to limit exposure until you become inured.

Best regards,
Paul S
Page 2 of 3 (55 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Versa dynamics...  Analog Playback Forum     184  742208  05-31-2004
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  388257  01-30-2006
  »  New  About reviewer’s qualifications and disqualifications...  Sad thing....  Audio Discussions  Forum     1  19836  06-21-2009
  »  New  Sensible record cleaning: vinyl piranhas and record Vas..  A nice video...  Analog Playback Forum     53  183638  11-07-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  When I see the crap like this thing…...  Analog Playback Forum     13  98018  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  11743  03-13-2010
  »  New  Swell New RIAA-Only Phonostage, Only $60k!!!..  Vitus...  Analog Playback Forum     8  36547  07-05-2010
  »  New  Bose audio and industry post-mortal ripples..  Michael Fremer can’t escape himself...  Audio News Forum     4  13334  07-20-2013
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts