Romy the Cat wrote:

IIs it possible that the methods of sinusoid construction are mater – so where is the causality?

drdna wrote:

1. The perfect sinusoid unmasks the compensation of the system for imperfect power -- it is like when the car stereo comes on when you start the car, way too loud, because there is no road noise to adjust for any more. The sound of the capacitors might be polished and bloated, like a man in a finely tailored suit treading water in a large pool.

An interesting take, I never thought in this way. So, you feel that with a perfect sinusoid if sound gets worse then it not the fault of the powers source but rather the refection of imperfection of the rest playback. I personally do not think that it is the case but it definably a perspective that might be taking under consideration

drdna wrote:

2. Of course the method of sinusoid construction MATTERS, but how much? It is an indisputable fact from quantum physics. The effect is more subtle. The music is not as relaxed, not as open, the dynamics seem "disconnected." The music does not flow easily and the connection to the Sound is more removed.

Actually I do not know as I did not see the connection between the shapes of sinusoids as sound. When I have an “another” type of sinusoid shape I do not feed the system with different shape but with different methods of construction of sinusoids. It is possible that one method is sonically better than other and it is just happen that the “one method” has perfect sinusoids. To tell something defiantly it would be need to have let say am amp (A/B or D) that is driver from a generator and then feed the amp with different sinusoids – perfect and distorted. Then it will be objectively auditable is the shape of sinusoids (both current and voltage) is the factor in sound.  Otherwise we compare apples and oranges…

Are we all in agreement that up to now "the best power" in terms of sound has been the best wall power?

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that on a good day there is a LOT of current pushing the "best" wall power into a system that was literally designed for it.

I have also noticed that on the best power days the system is much quieter, which I have attributed to quiet ground as much as "correct", quiet "power".

Could any of Avicenna's problems be ground related?  It seems like every component and every combination of components has it's own best ground solution.  Why would a conditioner or regenerator be any different?

I also wonder if system backwash and/or inter-component crosstalk are factors.

At this point I am inclined to think that if the conditioners and regenerators do not sound good, then they are "doing something wrong" to the power vis-a-vis the load/system, "perfect sinusoid" notwithstanding; we just don't know exactly what they are doing wrong yet, or why, whether it's fixable, or how to fix it.

Curve balls?  Some conditioners hate inductors; some hate big capacitors; some hate both.

But the simple balanced "test" load is an abstraction, basically irrelevant for predicting sound via music.

Romy's tests are the only ones I have seen to date that show actual traces of the output of a system-loaded regenerator.

No wonder we are still trying to figure this out; no one who builds and markets these things actually bothers to test them using relevant criteria; all they ship are Betas.

If "perfect sinusoids" don't sound right, then I think there is either more to it than that or we should be looking elsewhere for symbolic cues that actually signify good-sounding power.

Best regards,
Paul S

Romy the Cat wrote:

I did not see the connection between the shapes of sinusoids as sound. When I have an “another” type of sinusoid shape I do not feed the system with different shape but with different methods of construction of sinusoids.

Paul wrote:

Maybe this has something to do with the fact that on a good day there is a LOT of current pushing the "best" wall power into a system that was literally designed for it.

OK, after some experiments I did find something that reduced dynamics what Avicenna was on line. Avicenna has two power transformers. First one is a low voltage (6.3V/1A) transformer to feed Avicenna’s distortion analyses, oscillators, frequency PLL, reaction delays and logic generation circuits. He second is high voltage (12V-35V/20A) transformer to feed Avicenna’s unique “hanging” amplifier. This amp is for processing the wave correction. So, what I found out was that the polarity of the primary of this big ass toroidal transformer was the key that eat the Avicenna’s dynamics. Why would know that the polarity of primary in this circuit worked be so critical, particularly knowing that the primary electricity stream that feed load does not go over this toroidal transformer.

So, the problem is resolved? The Avicenna does not screw sound anymore? Yes, the Avicenna does not worsening sound anymore but it did not resolved problem but only escalated the problem. Now Avicenna in bypass and operation modes has absolutely identical sound despite to the fact the in operation mode outputs absolutely perfect and no-distortion sinusoid (look to images a few post back). How the hell this possible? Flipping the bypass swatch very dramatically changes the waveform on the scope but has no effect of any kind to sound. I am officially confused!

The Cat

I do not know, the Sound of Avicenna is mystery for me and I have no idea by outputting no-distortion electricity but at the same time it has no impact to audible character of the plagued into it components.  Still, the Avicenna is a very slick design idea and beautifully implemented.  It‘s operation is flawless but I have to admit the with all flexibility of operation modes it is very dangers to use it as a prototype. I had already a few “near death experiences” with Avicenna and the only brilliantly engineered self-protecting circuit saved Avicenna from flame (Dima claims that it is imposable to damage this power processor).

So, since Avicenna does what it intended I decided to put my sonic experiments aside and convert the Avicenna into a non-prototype version, putting in a secure utilitarian box and compliment it reasonable thermo sink for proper heat dissipation. After then will continue to play with it trying to get sound out of it. I will not do any sexy enclosure, juts enough to make the operation secure… I think it might take a month or so what all things arrive… Until then the Avicenna project will be on hold.

One way or another, Time has a way of putting things into a different perspective.  So I'm wondering how things are going for the bold explorers who forked over their expectations for a whack at the PP2000.  Have the things turned out to be Plug and Play along with All That, or is this yet another case where Romy has managed to get the Only Good One they ever produced, which only He could ever manage to adapt for acceptable use?

It's not that I don't trust the Manufacturer to Walk the Talk...

OK, it is that I don't trust them.  Why would I, especially since they are still Officially Silent as the Grave on all Pertinent Issues.  Apart from posting only and exactly the parts of Romy's lenghty, ogoing commentary that sells it best, you'd never know there was any feedback about their products.  Also, I still wonder if the "Nervousness", condemned by the Mfg. (as unique to Romy's unit...), has turned out to be the (dithering?) Key to it's very singular success in One Man's application.  They don't seem to know, themselves, that's for sure (or, they are not saying...).

Judging by the traffic numbers, this is one of the most shopped threads on the Whole Board.  There have to be others who have dashed out and bought the PP2000 based on the sterling "recommendation" proffered here, and surely there is someone who bought one he bought it has some objective sense not only of why but also how to evaluate it in terms of audible results.

Adrian, you mentioned a while back that you'd taken The Plunge.  How goes your own test?  You've never mentioned it again.  Was it Plug and Play Paradise, or are you still battling QC issues and/or finding things more complicated than you'd wished?  Also, I'm wondering if the recent spate of remarks regarding the 2241s is in any way connected to the PP2000...

Any crumbs from The Table would be appreciated.

Paul S

Paul S wrote:

Adrian, you mentioned a while back that you'd taken The Plunge. How goes your own test? You've never mentioned it again.Paul S

Paul S wrote:

So I'm wondering how things are going for the bold explorers who forked over their expectations for a whack at the PP2000.  Have the things turned out to be Plug and Play along with All That, or is this yet another case where Romy has managed to get the Only Good One they ever produced, which only He could ever manage to adapt for acceptable use? It's not that I don't trust the Manufacturer to Walk the Talk... OK, it is that I don't trust them.  Why would I, especially since they are still Officially Silent as the Grave on all Pertinent Issues.  Apart from posting only and exactly the parts of Romy's lenghty, ogoing commentary that sells it best, you'd never know there was any feedback about their products.  Also, I still wonder if the "Nervousness", condemned by the Mfg. (as unique to Romy's unit...), has turned out to be the (dithering?) Key to it's very singular success in One Man's application.  They don't seem to know, themselves, that's for sure (or, they are not saying...).

Is it the characteristic of my unit only or the new trend of Pure Power production? How would I know? Well, let put in this way: why do I care? All that I would say is that if Pure Power let me know that they resoled the defect with the “nervousness” (that they promised me to do!!!) then I will get another “fixed” unit, and only after I confirm that it does not screw up sound I will return my current one. I will not accept the Pure Power’s new releases or modification on “the faith”.

To come clear I have to note that I did suggested to PP to increase the price twice as it would differentiate them from the similarly priced but way less capably performing audio devises. Also, I informed them that if they do 4kW-5kW unit then I would be the first who would like to be a first who would signed in.

What else? Over the course of the last 3 months I have a few people who contacted me informing that they bought the PP2000 after my feedback. Few them report beyond expectations result and two of them report problem, if not sound them with operation. I have no idea how accurate they are in their commentaries; in fact I do not particularly care. The strange people feel that if they and I use the same power regenerators then we are the best friends and it gives them rights to send me emails and ask me question about which I do not care. I asked them to stop sending anything talks to the manufacturer about all their frustrations.

Now, Paul, about your frustration with your electricity. I do not see that you express a frustration about electricity but you rather express a frustration about a lock of sanity from Pure Power or the companies like Pure Power. Ok, I understand it but why do not play the game that have already the redden path.  If not all then most of the companies that sell power devises sell honestly – 30 days money back if it does not work for you. They take care about shipping and everything ease. So, if you feel that a permanent cure of electricity would worth to you let say $5K then why doesn’t no waste those $5K into the trails program? Call up and order all imaginable power devises from anyone you with (there are over 2 dozens of companies out there), taking advantages the free trail. Soon or later you will come upon something worthy, after all that was how I discovered for myself the PP.  You might discover something valuable and you might begin to build up upon the positive finds. Do not forgets, all of those companies mostly are clueless about what they sell in terms of sound and the only one way to educate them is to try and then to explain them what it was and what you would like to do with it.

Anyhow, until you will turn the stones they will lay on the field undisturbed and unused…

drdna wrote:

Okay, today I hooked it up and have spend some time listening. The change in my system was very dramatic and positive. First of all, it seems suddenly like a good electricity day. The noise floor dropped out. The timbre of the music and the body and presence of the music became correct and full. The presentation changed very much. There is no audiophile soundstage: any ideas of artifice of imaging created by the process of recording disappear. The presentation is simply correct as it would be in real life and there is no concern with an imaginary soundstage. This is the thing which impresses me the most immediately: I am simply listening to the Sound and I for the most part suddenly am not obsessing about wires and capacitors and tubes. The only thing, as with Romy's experience is the blunting of the HF. It is not incorrect or distorted. It is simply that the liveliness is absent. Hopefully it will return during the next week. Those are the initial impressions. More to come. But to me so far it seems like everything I hoped for and more.

drdna wrote:

As I said before, the perception of the audiophile imaging and soundstage is really gone.

With interest I read the posts about the mains / power and the effect on hifi gear.

The conclusion why and how electricity thus have an impact and the overall sound of our system is influenced by it is actually quite simple.

Generally the mains is 110 - 240 VAC 50 - 60 Hz
 
The mains shut supply’s a near perfect sinusoidal waveform with a stable frequency of 50 or 60 Hz and low distortion.

The Current the mains supply shut be in phase with the Voltage.

Where thus it go wrong? And what can we do to solve this problem!

In fact we only need pure power, meaning a clean sinusoidal waveform with the supplied current in Phase delivered out of the wall, as simple it is. (Is it?)
 
So we spend big bucks and by us self’s a Power Regenerator and think we are in haven! Wrong

If you look deeper into it then we know that all the gear we use have some kind of build-in internal power supply’s to operate the internal electronics at there different levels. This usually is a Transformer or switching power supply. The internal AC-voltages are converted into DC Voltages with Diodes, Capacitors and DC-DC Converters.

These internal used components and the quality of them to have a huge impact on the electronics and eventually on the Sound as we here it from our repro system.

Generally the better the internal supply the les it is influenced by the external mains power; this is why (pure) battery operated systems are less effected by the quality of the mains power.

Now we go back to where all started; The mains Power and Power Regenerators.

Can we improve our overall system sound in a stable way meaning we can enjoy our music day by day at the same high level as we heard it the day before? 

Answer NO we can not.

To keep it simple there are more technical issues involved as discussed in several technical papers and here in this post.

I will make a small summery and then u can make up your own mind:

Harmonics: a big issue and completely underestimated by the producers of Power Regenerators.

Internal Impedance: shut be as low as possible in the whole system, here we have to keep in mind that all the connections from the equipment to the power source shut be as short as possible.

Jitter: Yes also the AC-Power line / Source is influenced by this phenomena.

Grounding and RF: Lots of studies have proven that the Ground connection in our homes is loaded with all kind of unwanted e-smog.

The best solution here is to have a separate single Ground pin that shut be at least 6 meters of length into the earth.

Still we have the RF problem; here it gets difficult because the optimum situation wood be the have a faraday gage. Most of us are not able to do something against RF Shielding because of cosmetic reasons having the Stereo system setup in the living room for example.

What we can do is not using ore shut down the Wireless stuff, this already helps a lot.

So we need a Power Plant that delivers pure undistorted AC Voltage - Current and this jitter free wit low Harmonic Distortion. The Power plant itself shut not act as an RF radiator as many do.

Herman

Analog Field Application Engineer
30 years of experience in the Analog and Power field

PS: I own the Pure Power 1050 and use it for about 6 month now.