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06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 61
Post ID: 7665
Reply to: 7662
Past lives etc.

Thanks Romy and Paul for your comments.

Romy wrote : "...I personally would probably go for a monopod frame above the upper bass horn (merging it in middle) as I feel it make the architecture more elegant, more airy and visually less demanding..."

Yes, perhaps a frame with a single mast would have been more orderly. It certainly would have been possible. My logic in going with parallel masts is as follows:

Option 1 : Single mast - Frame passes up under the 180Hz horn.
In this case, the horizontal member of the support would have eaten into valuable vertical space for the tweeter.

Option 2 : Single mast - Frame passing behind the driver and up over the 180Hz horn.
I now know what the 180Hz horn does (and really love it), but at the time I did not, and wanted to leave space for both deeper and more shallow horns; I did not want for example, the forward end of a horizontal member dictating horn geometry or placement (yes, there are ways around this problem) and by extension placement of all other horns of that channel.

Of the two options, this is the better choice. However, it must also be born in mind that the 180Hz horn + S2 is nearly as deep as the upper bass horn, and weighs 135 lbs, most of which are concentrated toward the big end of the horn, and that passing a central mast behind the S2 (leaving space for driver removal and time arriving adjustment) would mean holding all the horns weight in pure cantilever.

To summarize, because it is less restrictive with regard to horn placement, and because it is less solicited in terms of load (cantilever) I elected to go with a parallel mast configuration.

If however I were to put these things into production, I would nail down the variables and reconsider using a single mast, as the advantages it represents in simplicity of fabrication alone are enough to justify such an approach.

"...Horn installations are ugly from female perspective..."

Yes, and this type of woman is, from my perspective, as interesting as your average cabbage. However, last night I had a female visitor who commented (without being prompted) that she found the installation to be "beau"... I said "What?... Say that again please... Does this make you a lesbian?"

Anyway, the horns are not the only objects in the place which others might consider as aesthetically offensive elements. Most likely due to professional deformation (my DAY JOB), I have developed an aversion to all styled objects; I won't buy them, and can't stand living with them. By contrast, I find horn installations to be visually fascinating, because like weapons, they are so expressive of their function.

Paul S wrote :

"...So, you used to be:

tool and die guy

mold maker

brain surgeon..."

My background is in automotive styling (cringe!). Plaster working skills were learned by watching the French and Italians make automotive prototypes... I was lucky enough to witness the last of their breed in action... The best were veritable artists... We now do everything via CAD and CNC milling. Along with waiting tables, motorcycle mechanics and metal fabrication skills were all acquired in past lives.

About fifteen years ago, as a remedy to the effects of said DAY JOB, I undertook an ambitious personal project (its finally done!) which called for, among other things, a basic knowledge of structural engineering and metallurgy; I this from books.

BTW, one of my favorite books ever written happens to address the subject of structural engineering (along with quite a few other subjects... Not what you'd expect).

It is : "Structures, or Why Things Don't Fall Down", by J.E. gordon.
http://www.amazon.com/Structures-Things-Dont-Fall-Down/dp/0306812835

jd*




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 62
Post ID: 7666
Reply to: 7658
Finishing and texturing process
Here are a couple shots of the finishing process.

Finish work 01.jpg
Foreground : Pair of 180Hz horns
Left : Halves of a 115Hz horn
Right : Pair of 400Hz horns

Near the center of the above image there is a rectangular box of sand... This sand is what was used to create the texture. The filtering basket sitting on the chassis in the background was used to filter out the larger particles of sand; the finer particles were then mixed with epoxy resin.

Finish work 02.jpg
Application of sand + epoxy resin to the inner surfaces of a 180Hz horn

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 63
Post ID: 7667
Reply to: 7666
The finishing of nice horns.

Hmmm, are you sure that you do not do a mistake?

Jessie, I do not know how to say it but looking at your last picture something does not work for me. The hone that you made are elegant and graceful but painted in glossy black with that very rough structure I feel they are less attractive. The texture surface is good but I think that the sophistication of the epoxy-sand mix is not good enough for the appearance of your fine horns. It is of cause personal preferences but If I have your wonderfully-smooth horns I would probably keep them white and then used different shadows of gray structured paint to color them. Like upper bass horn might be dark gray, almost black and the upper it goes the lighter gray it become – of something like this depends of the light condition of your listening room. I think at this point, what you do not know where and how they will be installed it make sense to keep them white unfinished. Then what you found the place you might take the drivers off, load a big car-painting mashie and compressor with paint and spay the horns in accordance to how you wish.  I would juts draw a macro-image of the room right on the top of the installed horns. Then juts repaint the room.  You never have this change again if you finish the horns right now.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 64
Post ID: 7668
Reply to: 7667
Colors & surfacing

Romy wrote : "...The horns that you made are elegant and graceful but painted in glossy black with that very rough structure I feel they are less attractive. The texture surface is good but I think that the sophistication of the epoxy-sand mix is not good enough for the appearance of your fine horns..."

Actually the photo was taken while the resin was still not cured... Once cured it goes more mat. This is then followed by a coat of mat black paint (what used to be called oil-based paint as opposed to water soluble latex) applied to both inner and outer surfaces.

Why mat black? Simple, ease of retouch. At one point the upper bass horns were done in dark bronze, and just as you suggest, I was going paint the smaller horns in progressively lighter shades... In the beginning I thought they looked great, but in the end I came to hate the color and especially the idea of being forced to keep on hand a correct mix of each color in the event of a retouch.

Other than dust, I have no problem with the black.

Regarding the scale of the texture: Like an idiot, I applied this texture at the time I moved (there were reasons to get it done at the old place) so the first time I listened to such an aggressively textured horn was once setup in the new place; meaning not only a different room, and different electricity, but also, finally with the upper bass horns in the same room.

Conclusion: Without conducting a back to back test against a smooth horn (which I would have to make), it is not possible to say, with any degree of certainty, what effect this texture has on sound.

I'll be sure to put one of the small horns in my suitcase if ever traveling to Boston.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
06-24-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 65
Post ID: 7669
Reply to: 7668
I did it a numbers of times myself…
when I re-refinishing my horns. Fortunately whatever I screw up I was able cure by re-polishing my horn with abrasive wool-steel. I think I lost 20Hz of mouth rate on my horn re-polishing…. I also am heavy on Texture Paint – it wonderfully eliminates the signs of ignorant painting - a good help in my case…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 66
Post ID: 7759
Reply to: 4898
Stepping up
Ok, I have been experimenting with placement : Long wall versus short wall.

Though the frames have wheels and roll very easily, my room is cursed with an elevated platform smack in the middle of everything (about 14 inches higher than the main floor), and to move the horns up on to or down off of this platform requires taking everything apart. Over 1600lbs of horn and frame; I would not try pushing it up or down a ramp... so, about 5 hours to dissamble, move, and reassemble once off the platform.

Anyway, got them more or less in place on the short wall, and have been listening... The upper bass horns like it much more in this location (coupling with the side walls). Photo of the setup will come once I get the place looking a bit more presentable.

But what I want to talk about here is this platform, because what I discovered with regard to layout and horn stacking could be of help to others.

My lower mid horn is a 180Hz tractrix, band passed from 800 - 3200Hz, its output is not attenuated. Romy calls this the "Fundamentals Channel"; its contribution is truly fundamental, to the point that if I had to reduce my system down to a single horn system and could keep only one horn, this would be it (maybe I can start a movement!). The horn sits up on top of the stack, which when seated in the near field (less than 10 feet) means that you do notice sound coming from above... I would not say its a problem, but it is not the same as a perception where everything originates from around ear-level. The result however when seated further back is big and spacious (I don't live in an apartment; its kind of just one big room).

Anyway, you can probably guess what's coming... With the horns set up on the main level, I decided to put the couch up on the platform, which puts one's ears about in line with the tweeter. Results... Good idea!

Elevated seat bw 01.jpg
Mouth of upper bass horns are about 20 feet in front of listener's ears

I've been telling myself that I would not stay in this "apartment" (or even in this country but that's another subject) because :

Reason 1: If the system is not switched off by 10 PM, the neighbor above reaches out his window and starts smacking my roof with a shovel (I once left my door open as he passed by; he stuck his head in and, upon seeing the horns, stuck a finger to his temple, rotated it a quarter turn while looking me in the eye and doing his best to express sincere pity)

Reason 2: This damn platform!

However... I think I will be taking the platform idea with me wherever I go.

From far back in the room the presentation is still "big and spacious", but it just seems more natural to be up in the middle of it all. I admit this is probably obvious. The discovery is how simple it is to recenter the listener. The other nice thing is that when listening while standing (off the platform), one's ear is maintained at the correct altitude.

Other news...

I spent the past two weeks building a pair of Romy/Ronny-inspired permanently adjustable rear chambers for the upper bass horns... Will load some photos of that adventure in the next few days.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 67
Post ID: 7760
Reply to: 7759
The Fundamentals Channel and imaging altitude.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Though the frames have wheels and roll very easily, my room is cursed with an elevated platform smack in the middle of everything (about 14 inches higher than the main floor), and to move the horns up on to or down off of this platform requires taking everything apart. Over 1600lbs of horn and frame; I would not try pushing it up or down a ramp... so, about 5 hours to dissamble, move, and reassemble once off the platform.

Yep, welcome to the club. To move this thing over a room is very troublesome, I usually if I willing to do so take the upperbass horn out of frame. The rest becomes extremely blocky but more manageable… The good/bad part is that you might not need to move anything else besides the upperbass horn… :-)

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
My lower mid horn is a 180Hz tractrix, band passed from 800 - 3200Hz, its output is not attenuated. Romy calls this the "Fundamentals Channel"; its contribution is truly fundamental, to the point that if I had to reduce my system down to a single horn system and could keep only one horn, this would be it (maybe I can start a movement!). The horn sits up on top of the stack, which when seated in the near field (less than 10 feet) means that you do notice sound coming from above... I would not say its a problem, but it is not the same as a perception where everything originates from around ear-level. 

Anyway, you can probably guess what's coming... With the horns set up on the main level, I decided to put the couch up on the platform, which puts one's ears about in line with the tweeter. Results... Good idea!

OK, Jessie, not you enter the realm of fine tuning of your system. Your solution with platform is elegant but it cures symptoms not the courses. I personally do not feel that you use Fundamentals Channel properly. You desired to run your Fundamentals Channel up to 3200Hz but it is too high. Take a look, you have your MF channel I presumed crossed at 3200Hz with 3uF cap, at least it is what I have. However it is juts electrical crossover point. Do not forget that the secondary resonance of S2 driver pushes a large boost at 1250Hz making the S2 to response flat down to 1000Hz. Your Fundamentals Channel does not die at 1000Hz but run all the way to 3200Hz. The 3200Hz with first order is a nice and opened MF driver with a lot of HF extension in it. The HF extension makes the channel to be too identifiable height-wise. Also, the HF extension from Fundamentals Channel crates some lobbing problem in regards to MF channel. So, what you need to do is to found a right balance between the Fundamentals Channel and MF Channel.

When you said that your Fundamentals Channel is the single horn that you would keep I imidetaly sensed a problems. The in my few the Fundamentals Channel should not push recognizable Sound but rather the unpleasant boom noise. Portend a hypothetic guitar. The sounds of strings shell come from MF channel. The sound of guitar’s deck shall come from Fundamentals Channel. The sound of the room where the guitar plays shell come from the Upperbass Channel.  In your case I feel the Fundamentals Channel work too high.

Do the following – put two channels ONLY in operation: the MF and Fundamentals Channel. Run the RTA with MF channel and found out where the MF will roll off. Set the Fundamentals Channel at the very same point and listen both of the channels, running the low-pass crossover point on the Fundamentals Channel you will soon or later found the one you feel is right. I ma conversed that it will be lower then what you have now. When I did those experiments I detected that adding the 100-200Hz to low-pass crossover point on the Fundamentals Channel is auditable. Anyhow, when you will be lowering the Fundamentals Channel low-pass crossover point you will reduces the Fundamentals Channel’s HF out and it will reduce the ability of the Fundamentals Channel to lift up the imaging of the MF channel. Generally what I feel that implementation of Fundamentals Channel shell not lift up system vertical imaging. If it still does do then you might use a trick: lowering the Fundamentals’ low-pass crossover point but increasing the Fundamentals’ amplitude (I have an attenuator that allows me to fine-tune the Fundamental’s channel output).

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
(I once left my door open as he passed by; he stuck his head in and, upon seeing the horns, stuck a finger to his temple, rotated it a quarter turn while looking me in the eye and doing his best to express sincere pity)

Oh, Jessie I was laughing for 5 minutes upon reading it. The sad part that I very much agree with that guy….

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
  The discovery is how simple it is to recenter the listener. The other nice thing is that when listening while standing (off the platform), one's ear is maintained at the correct altitude.

If you lower the crossover point at your Fundamentals Channel then when a listener will be standing and the Fundamentals Channel will be shooting right into the listener’s ears then you will lose the neutrality of balance.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 68
Post ID: 7762
Reply to: 7760
Where to stop lower MF
Romy, thanks for your thoughts,

Quotes from Romy in blue :

"...I personally do not feel that you use Fundamentals Channel properly. You desired to run your Fundamentals Channel up to 3200Hz but it is too high..."

Maybe, probably, yes, OK, I am guilty of allowing myself to be seduced by something in the sound of this horn, and have been reluctant to limit its output.

I would like to ignore the issue of altitude, and concentrate only on identifying the frequency range to which each horn is best suited, and to use each horn accordingly... Once that is done, I have no problem building a platform, digging a trench, moving, changing girlfriends, etc.

"...Take a look, you have your MF channel I presumed crossed at 3200Hz with 3uF cap, at least it is what I have. (yes, 3.3uF) However it is juts electrical crossover point. Do not forget that the secondary resonance of S2 driver pushes a large boost at 1250Hz making the S2 to response flat down to 1000Hz..."

I did not forget, I've seen that it runs well below the electrical cutoff; I've written recently (in a response to Klaus I think) that I now need to measure what each horn is really doing. This weekend I took a very quick look at output with an RTA. I am coming into a phase where I will be doing a lot more of this.

"...Also, the HF extension from Fundamentals Channel crates some lobbing problem in regards to MF channel. So, what you need to do is to found a right balance between the Fundamentals Channel and MF Channel..."

I wish I understood more about this... Need to read more.
"...In my view the Fundamentals Channel should not push recognizable Sound but rather the unpleasant boom noise. Portend a hypothetic guitar. The sounds of strings shell come from MF channel. The sound of guitar’s deck shall come from Fundamentals Channel. The sound of the room where the guitar plays shell come from the Upperbass Channel.  In your case I feel the Fundamentals Channel work too high..."

Interesting way to see it. Again, after hearing the horn, I was inclined to let it have a larger roll in reproducing the frequency range.

"...Do the following – put two channels ONLY in operation: the MF and Fundamentals Channel. Run the RTA with MF channel and found out where the MF will roll off. Set the Fundamentals Channel at the very same point and listen both of the channels, running the low-pass crossover point on the Fundamentals Channel you will soon or later found the one you feel is right. I ma conversed that it will be lower then what you have now..."

I have been intending to do exactly this... I would not be surprised to find that you are correct (it would not be the first time!), but I will remain objective. I also want to try listening with the crossover point of the upper MF horn moved up a bit; yes I've been through this before, but never with so much of the project done and in place.

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-07-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 69
Post ID: 7764
Reply to: 7762
A lofty position
Jessie, as it happens, I find my own best listening position varies somewhat these days, depending on what I'm listening to or for.  For the best overall energy in my fairly energetic room, it is with my ears about 1 1/2 m off the floor, and farther back than I generally sit (from habit).  Ironically, I have been seriously thinking for some time that I would actually build a platform just large enough to accomodate a comfortable chair and ottoman that would put my totally laid-back/relaxed ears right in the energy sweet spot.

I have found that the audible impression of "height" is one of the trickier aspects of playback to get/keep just right.  It must have to do with frequency response and phase, as well as the height of the driver, and it also has to do with room loading, etc.  Of course beaming will always attract the ear, and the mind with it, and point-sourcing drivers is always bad.  For one thing, my impression of "height" does not start kicking in until everything warms up and settles down.  And who knows why, but the impression of "height" is also one of the first things to screw up when the electricity goes south.

Like you said, once it sounds right, who cares - within reason - if your listening position is "elevated"?  Perhaps a scepter is in order?

Best regards,
Paul S
07-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 70
Post ID: 7772
Reply to: 7764
Meanwhile, back at the lab...
Well a scepter or a baton... Last night before setting up the RTA, I listened to a recording of orchestral works from Strauss (Kempe conducting)... It was early enough that I could "air out the system" a bit.

And Ok, maybe I don't have all the filters dialed in, and the DPOLS are like a dream to me now, nevertheless, the quality of life these horns convey is just fantastic, especially with this sort of music/recording/volume level. Romy sometimes writes that he stands in front of his system and conducts... I am absolutely certain he is serious.

Meanwhile...

Here is an RTA plot of both the upper and lower mid horns, as they are currently set up (meaning without having affected any changes to the filters):

Upper & Lower MF 2008 07 07 Lite.jpg

The numbers may be too small to read, so I'll just point out that handoff is centered around 2400Hz.

As Romy says, the 400Hz horn is relatively falt down to 1KHz. The 180Hz horn also runs way below its electrical filter cutoff, and keeps getting stronger the lower it goes, before finally dropping off.

If I were to add a plot of the upper bass horn (115Hz tractrix) it would show bass output that continues to rise down to about 140Hz (below that I run out of horns and let the lower-bass enclosures take over, which is not kosher, but it is temporary... Until I get the 45Hz mid-bass horns done).

So, a curve drawn by the entire system drops as frequencies rise; it is possible that it drops too steeply.

The question I have today however is the following :

Is the output from the 180Hz horn too strong, and should that red line drop down under the blue one sooner? It is worth bearing in mind that I would not like to give up output at around 500Hz, because it is necessary to make the transition down to the upper-bass horn (which as stated above, has even stronger output... BTW, that's when using the Fane Studio 8Ms... More on that later).

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 71
Post ID: 7774
Reply to: 7772
Playing around.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
And Ok, maybe I don't have all the filters dialed in, and the DPOLS are like a dream to me now….

And with 1600 pound per channel you might forget about the DPOLS … -Smile

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Here is an RTA plot of both the upper and lower mid horns, as they are currently set up

OK, Jessie, first thing first and I am not kidding – change the way you use RTA. You must not look at 80dB window. You need to found for yourself a reasonable resolution and stick to it. I personally use 1dB you might go higher or lower, but you need to see your .5-1dB very deistically. Use 10dB-16dB window. Now, it is very important to found a convent RTA window and resolution and never change it. The reason is that when you begin to listen it and interpret your measurement you will develop visional-audible relation. So, in order the RTA sweep has any practical since for yourself you need to develop in your head some sensitive of looking at the RTA’s output. So, go for 12dB window and .5dB horizontal markers.

Regarding to the graph itself. Everything looks fine, some adjustments you might consider. I will make general observation encompassing your comments

1)    Your must to select for you’re a metal reference level – you must not balance the system abstractedly. The reference level in your case would be the main plot of your MF channel. I marked it Red on your TRA

2)    The MF is fine but it has quite strong bottom output down to 500Hz and rolls off too soon at HF. What distance you measured it and how much off axis the mic was? Was Mic calibrated at HF?

3)    Since you have a dedicated Fundamental Channels I would cut the bottom response of MF Channels. Go for 2.7-3uF cap making the electrical crossover point around 4K. This will bring the acoustic crossover point of MF to ~ 1000Hz and would save a lot of necessary excursion at MF driver.

4)    Bring the Fundamental Channel 3-8dB lower – I do not see at your resolution how much – until the 500-900Hz region hit the Reference Level.  Make the band-pass more narrow, decreasing the HF extension from the Fundamental Channel. It will be a coil around  2.7mH that would make 900Hz. But 3 or 4 of then, the cheapest one and then listen the MF and Fundamental Channels combined, while taking the turn out of the coil. Approximately around 2.3mH or 1000-1100Hz you might found it works better. The precession is not too important in there – you can always tine-tine the Fundamental Channel with changing volume of the Channel – a good 16R LPAD would help a lot. Do not forget that Fundamental Channels is the body of sound – you will fine adjust it later on. The proposed ideal response of the Fundamental Channels I drew in yellows on the graph. In practice it might be even 5-4dB lover then this – and not to me measurable at all (hidden behind MF and upperbass output). Sonically, however that not-measurable weight will be there and do its duty. I use disconnect the upperbass  and MF to get the  Fundamental Channel profile.

5)    Find what to cross your Fundamental Channel at the bottom. It will depend how much your horn will tolerate without being choked with honk. Do not forget that at the range of the Fundamental Channel’s bottom knee the room maters.

6)    The prospect upper bass woe reaps is show with green dashes…

Jessie_TRA_1.jpg

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 72
Post ID: 7775
Reply to: 7774
Cap dancing
Romy wrote :

"...And with 1600 pound per channel you might forget about the DPOLS … -Smile..."


No, 1600 lbs per channel would be really serious! 
1600 lbs is the total combined weight of the Left and Right channels, with frames, (the frames turned out to be kind of heavy). Then entire installation is on wheels (including electronics and lower bass enclosures), and is very easy to move, if one happens to be on smooth, level ground.

"...change the way you use RTA. You must not look at 80dB window...You need to found for yourself a reasonable resolution and stick to it... I personally use 1dB you might go higher or lower, but you need to see your .5-1dB very deistically. Use 10dB-16dB window... it is very important to found a convenient RTA window and resolution and never change it... go for 12dB window and .5dB horizontal markers..."

Yes I already do understand the importance of establishing a default resolution/sampling rate for RTA comparisons; I will take your advice on the range and resolution. If I get you correctly, the graph should display a range of around 12dB from top to bottom, in .5dB steps... Yes?

I don't have the RTA here with me, so can't refer to the all the possibilities it offers right now (will do it tonight). I do know that I had the sampling set for 1/6th octave, weighted for "White Noise"... I noticed that you use a non-logarithmic graph (in the previous post I used a graph that is supposed to correspond to the sensitivity of our hearing, exposing in greater detail the range where we hear best... I don't like this idea).

"...Your must to select for you’re a metal reference level – you must not balance the system abstractedly. The reference level in your case would be the main plot of your MF channel. I marked it Red on your TRA..."

I understand this to mean an average of the output of the MF horn, being subjected to a swept, and outputting at normal listening volume.

"...The MF is fine but it has quite strong bottom output down to 500Hz and rolls off too soon at HF. What distance you measured it and how much off axis the mic was? Was Mic calibrated at HF?..."

Measurement distance was about 6 feet back from the mouths of upper-bass horns and centered between the L and R stacks of horns (this is a plot of both upper-mid horns playing together... You will probably tell me that I should have tested a single horn, which is what I usually do). The mic is supposed to be calibrated, its not very old, and it has not been abused. The HF rolling off could be due to the fact that I was not on axis, or that both horns were playing; I also suspect the tone generator... I've been using a little computer program which seems to do ok until it hits the HF range, at which point I can hear it going a bit nuts. The computer sends the signal to the DAC, the same as if it were a music file. I also have a Tektronix tone generator, but have not dared connect it to either the preamp or directly to the power amps. I guess its just a question of measuring the strength of the output signal from the tone generator to make sure I don't fry something in the audio gear (any advice here would be very appreciated).

"...Since you have a dedicated Fundamental Channels I would cut the bottom response of MF Channels. Go for 2.7-3uF cap making the electrical crossover point around 4K. This will bring the acoustic crossover point of MF to ~ 1000Hz and would save a lot of necessary excursion at MF driver..."

Easy enough, I have the necessary caps.

"...Bring the Fundamental Channel 3-8dB lower - I do not see at your resolution how much – until the 500-900Hz region hit the Reference Level..."

"...Make the band-pass more narrow, decreasing the HF extension from the Fundamental Channel..."

"...It will be a coil around 2.7mH that would make 900Hz. Buy 3 or 4 of them, the cheapest ones, and then listen the MF and Fundamental Channels combined, while taking the turn out of the coil. Approximately around 2.3mH or 1000-1100Hz you might found it works better..."

That will have to wait until the weekend when I can get to the place where I buy coils.

"...a good 16R LPAD would help a lot..."


Up to now I have been superstitious about using anything with resistors directly in front of a driver; but I could maybe mix up a double martini and give it a try.

"...Find what to cross your Fundamental Channel at the bottom. It will depend how much your horn will tolerate without being choked with honk. Do not forget that at the range of the Fundamental Channel’s bottom knee the room maters..."

Yes, make that a tripple martini if I am going below 500Hz, 1st order...

Thanks Romy for all the help, I mean it; I know it takes time to respond.

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-08-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 73
Post ID: 7776
Reply to: 7775
It all might work.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
If I get you correctly, the graph should display a range of around 12dB from top to bottom, in .5dB steps... Yes?

Yes, it would do, you might go for high or lower resolution, and there are no rules in it. You shell pick the resolution and the range that would be illustrative enough for you and with which you would be able to interpite the auditable effects.  For me it starts at 1dB per vertical axes and 1/12octabe in horizontal

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I noticed that you use a non-logarithmic graph
It might be ether logarithmic or not. It is not really important. I personally prefer non-logarithmic as I interspersed always in narrow bandwidth.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
"...Your must to select for you’re a metal reference level – you must not balance the system abstractedly. The reference level in your case would be the main plot of your MF channel. I marked it Red on your TRA..."

I understand this to mean an average…

Actually what I meant to say was not metal reference level but mental reference level

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Measurement distance was about 6 feet back from the mouths of upper-bass horns and centered between the L and R stacks of horns (this is a plot of both upper-mid horns playing together... You will probably tell me that I should have tested a single horn, which is what I usually do). The mic is supposed to be calibrated, its not very old, and it has not been abused. The HF rolling off could be due to the fact that I was not on axis, or that both horns were playing; I also suspect the tone generator... I've been using a little computer program which seems to do ok until it hits the HF range, at which point I can hear it going a bit nuts. The computer sends the signal to the DAC, the same as if it were a music file. I also have a Tektronix tone generator, but have not dared connect it to either the preamp or directly to the power amps. I guess its just a question of measuring the strength of the output signal from the tone generator to make sure I don't fry something in the audio gear (any advice here would be very appreciated).

You need to put a mic to the position where you head will be. If you have down about your generators or anything else then use any good  a test SD. The Sheffield labs “My Disk” has tracks 60-63 that are very good sweep 20-20K.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
  Up to now I have been superstitious about using anything with resistors directly in front of a driver; but I could maybe mix up a double martini and give it a try.

I do not think that it makes any difference at HF channels and it certainly is no difference at Fundamental channel. The HF drivers afraid capacitance, the LF driver afraid impedance and inductance"...Find what to cross your Fundamental Channel at the bottom. It will depend how much your horn will tolerate without being choked with honk. Do not forget that at the range of the Fundamental Channel’s bottom knee the room maters..."

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
  Yes, make that a tripple martini if I am going below 500Hz, 1st order...

It might work. Make sure that your driver is very well aligned and has very clean gap.
The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 74
Post ID: 7782
Reply to: 7776
Right again...
Ok, it turned out that I had all caps and coils "in stock" necessary to adjust the filters very close to Romy's recommendations.

Its still not perfect, and I had the mic 1m from the membrane of the driver (had not yet read Romy's last post where he recommends putting the mic back at listening point). Also, the RTA was giving me hell (locking up due to registration paranoia on the part of the maker of the software... Was not able to arrive at a satisfactory setting). All that aside, what I got looks amazingly close to Romy's drawing (see previous posts):

Upper & Lower Mids 2008 07 08 Lite.jpg

Looks like the low end of the Upper-mid curve should move to the left a little. I will try changing the caps tonight.

Though the filters for the lower-mid driver should allow it to go lower than the previous arrangement, it does not seem to be doing so, and is rolling off at the low end in a more progressive manner. It is also somewhat attenuated relative to previous arrangement (a good thing).

I didn't have a 2.7mH coil as recommended, but in doing the calculation, I came up with 4.5mH, which I happen to have in stock, so I put them in the game, each coil preceded by a 10uF cap. I will try taking the horn lower but need to do a bit of shopping for parts.

How it sounds :

It was 3 AM when I realized my neighbor was gone for the week (which means I can actually listen at interesting levels after 10PM : See previous posts). I listened until around 4 AM (facing the DAY JOB was just painful), so I need to listen again when rested, but first indications are that Romy could not have been more right. 

Here is what I noted : Rendition is over all more precise, seems like a reduction in noise, system capable of more delicacy, more intimacy, seems like upper-bass/lower-mid has more weight, texture of instruments in the mid-range even more apparent now. Quite addictive.

Romy wrote :

"...I personally do not feel that you use Fundamentals Channel properly. You desired to run your Fundamentals Channel up to 3200Hz but it is too high..."

Yes, it seems you are correct. Arriving at this conclusion alone would have probably eventually happened (well I like to think so!), but I was reluctant to try such a thing because, to be honest, I had always thought you under-used your Fundamentals horn due to the difficulties you had in implementing it. I have often wondered if you were not supplementing the output of that horn via your Injection Channel. I now see (hear) for myself that neither is the case.

Regarding RTA resolution and display :

I took a look at some of the sweeps you've posted for the S2 and Water Drop tweeter; it seems you tend to use a 40dB window... This I think I could manage. I find reading your RTA sweeps seem a bit coarse to me for example when trying to read HF rolloff of the S2, but this may be because you were using something like a 1/3 octave setting at the time (?)

Regarding the tone generator possibly freaking out, Romy wrote :

"...If you have doubts about your generator, use any good test CD..."

Yes, I remembered that I had a couple such CDs, which I used in this latest round of testing.

Thanks again for the help,

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-09-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 75
Post ID: 7783
Reply to: 7782
To emphasized a few points.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Its still not perfect, and I had the mic 1m from the membrane of the driver (had not yet read Romy's last post where he recommends putting the mic back at listening point).

I would like to stress it again that that positioning of microphones for measurement of en entire acoustic system is a very complicated subject. In some instances the static positioning would not work and the mic needs to be moved. Anyhow, I would like to keep the subject of mic positioning out of this thread. What Jessie you do are relatively simple measurements and in your case the microphone might be at any position – even at the mouth of the horns. The measurements themselves are not important. The important is how your auditable how the experiences correlates with your auditable experiences. So, the data that you collect via measurement will be juts to interpreted differently in case you measure from your listening position vs. you measure at 1 M from a given horn. It is like if you horn axis shot in your shoulder+1’ (like in my case) then where to position microphone for HF measurement: at the location of your head or at the MF horn’s axis. The answer would be – it does not matter for what you measure. Give yours another month and you will not be caring about the absolute response anymore but you will be concerned about the very specific rates of response change. The rate of change might be observed by many means and in many microphone locations. So, pick the mic position that you feel comfortable and stick with it. It will in time give you a sense of “how the given measurement sound” when you just looking at the graph of the given channel will be able to predict sonic consequence of the given solution.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Yes, it seems you are correct. Arriving at this conclusion alone would have probably eventually happened (well I like to think so!), but I was reluctant to try such a thing because, to be honest, I had always thought you under-used your Fundamentals horn due to the difficulties you had in implementing it. I have often wondered if you were not supplementing the output of that horn via your Injection Channel. I now see (hear) for myself that neither is the case.

I do have difficulties with Fundamentals Channel but not those that you mentioned. My desire do not let the Fundamental Channel to run high is purely deliberate. Running the Fundamentals higher reduces MF texture and vertically offset imaging. The imaging might be brought back by running the upperbass higher but then we have some imagine diffusion (lobbing) + the HF because too heavy and loose lightness. With three channels having that large overlap some music will to onto sonic saturation. It is like having a very heavy meal on thirsty mouth and be not able to drink water… Try to make this setting and listen some symphonic poems like Liszt, Strauss and etc. it will be intolerably- stuffed. I do have the difficulties with my Fundamentals Channel’s lover knee. Here I would like to have 180Hz horns, lie you have instead of my 250Hz horn, but it is what it is. The 180Hz horn would be larger than my current horn however, and I am at a very strict nearfiled environment… so, it is not clear to me if I would go for 180Hz horn in my case. Anyhow, the Injection Channel is not in the picture regarding this matter.

 jessie.dazzle wrote:
I took a look at some of the sweeps you've posted for the S2 and Water Drop tweeter; it seems you tend to use a 40dB window... This I think I could manage. I find reading your RTA sweeps seem a bit coarse to me for example when trying to read HF rolloff of the S2, but this may be because you were using something like a 1/3 octave setting at the time (?) 

The HF rolloff of the S2 is a tricky subject. It is 12.5kHz in the horn axis with a slight +2dB infliction at 10kHz. I do not use S2 on axis and at the location my head it is around 10kz flat. However, here is where the S2 shows itself off. The S2 has own poisoned caustic resonances at very HF that I found very interesting to use  and that subjectively make the S2’s 10kHz to sound more satisfying then TAD/JBL/EV/ALTEC’s 15kHz. The S2 at the very top has that “sonic thorn” that in my view set it apart from other drivers – I kind of got addicted to it though the “S2’s thorn” in my case (single stage amp and heavy loading) is very much reduced. So, you can’t say that it is juts 10kHz - it is rather the S2’s 10kHz - the very different animal then any other 10kHz.  

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 76
Post ID: 7807
Reply to: 7783
RTA break
Romy,

Thanks again for your comments.

The RTA and filter mods over the past few days have driven me straight up to the local café to chill out; they have WiFi here (this being France, still no internet at the house)... I will be brief.

Regarding mic positioning : I took some measuremnets from the listening point... My god, what a mess! This resulted in a phase of obsessive-compulsive filter tweaking, which went on until colapsing on the couch from fatigue, where I finally concluded something like what you mention below:

"...What Jessie you do are relatively simple measurements and in your case the microphone might be at any position – even at the mouth of the horns... So, the data that you collect via measurement will be juts to interpreted differently in case you measure from your listening position vs. you measure at 1 M from a given horn..."

I think I need to leave the filters for the moment, settle down, listen to the system (while cleaning the place up a bit !!!)... and get going on the mid-bass horns.

In the mean time, I am really starting to see what drove you to DSET (and also the Water Drop tweeter).

jd*



How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-13-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 77
Post ID: 7809
Reply to: 7807
Some thoughts while settling down.

Yep, it is a lot of work and it might look like not well organized work but there is good part in all of it – when you will be do you will be done and you would never do it again. Practice shows that those custom tailored systems are made and then used for tens years.  Sure you might move to different rooms in future that would lead for some minor crossover adjustments or you might try different derivers to get desired qualities of a given channel but the bone of this type acoustic system is pretty mush fixed and has not a lot of room for any further improvements. Well, unless Mr. Le Cleach invents some kind of new horn profile that would be better but will not be compatible with anything else… OK, it was a joke…

Anyhow, I do not know at which stage your project is what I think you are somewhere in a process of integrating the drivers. Do not forget that any audio project is a wonderful opportunity to buy another set of stupid audio tools – your case is not an exception. I have two large boxes - one with coils and one with caps; the indictor and capacitance meters. They are the tools I used to search for my crossovers – I trust the calculations and the predicted response but I still always would like to have the tangible feeling what is going on. This pain might be optimized. You might get yourself Pioneer D-23 crossover. It is it a very nice and flexible 4 way unit:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/SERIES20/S20D23-specs.html

You might run one channel opened and then with the D-23 to observe the level of it’s none-transparency and then extrapolate the observed non-transparency in your judgment.  Do not take the digital crossovers out of consideration. The Behringer is $300 unit it means that you might rent it from you local pro shop for 10% per day. (My shop consider Saturdays to rent and Monday to return as one day). The digital crossover is also a very nice tool for prototyping. What I like about those prototyping tools - I like 2 things. First, using them you actually trying and listen instead of ordering the caps and fight with coils. Second, when you use the crossover prototyping tools you do not listening the actual sound of channel. Instead you practice the target listening – try to hear exactly what you need. I found it is self-educational.

Still, the fixed coils and caps might do – you can always parallel of serialize them… If I were you I would not think at this point about DSET.  The DSET has own complexities and before trying to assess those complexities you need to have a references how your acoustic system shell perform before it will be enriched or screwed by DSET. Your Lamm ML2.0 shall do wonderful job to drive your thing…

I would propose to spend a year or two living with a built and fully functional installation and then to see if you feel any needs for “other” amplification. If you decide that you need other amplification then it should be not the architectural decision but rather your very specific sonic demands that you flash out from a performance of you setup at that time.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 78
Post ID: 7826
Reply to: 4906
Adjustable rear chamber (Photos)
Ronnie wrote (and posted the following image):
"...I was thinking the same. But perhaps rubber rings can be used to seal the back chamber to make it instantly tune-able (without the hard foam)..."

sealed-chamber-tuning.gif

Romy wrote a thread called the "Practical Guide to Back Chamber Tuning", complete with illustrations.
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=6011#6011

First thank you Ronnie and Romy...

I took your thoughts into the workshop (which is also the living room), and here is the result :

Rear_ch_parts_01.jpg
Above: The parts for one rear chamber. Rather than sliding a cylinder on the outside of the horn as in Ronnie's illustration, I decided to sleeve the horn's inner surface, and fabricate a piston that would slide within that sleeve. The cylinder is a heavy duty sewer pipe (expensive, and I had to buy 3m) The piston (foreground) has a rubber seal, which I've pulled out of its groove for the photo. The mechanism that drives the piston is a threaded shaft, with one end welded to a mini turn-table, and the other end destined to be threaded into the support that runs across the large circular clamping ring in the upper left of the image. The disc in front of the cylinder is the "other end" of the chamber; this is where the driver is bolted.

Rear_ch_parts_02.jpg
Above: Driver installed (Fane Studio 8Ms in this case) and wired to the binding posts visible on the clamping ring. The cylinder as well as the holes where the wires come through are sealed with silicone.

Rear_ch_parts_03.jpg
Above: Piston installed. Note the little valve in the piston... The air-tight seal works better than expected, so I decided to put a in bleeder, which, if opened, will keep from sucking or blowing a hole in the drivers membrane while adjusting the piston.

Rear_ch_parts_04.jpg
Above : Assembly ready to plug into the horn. The face that mates with the horn (top of image) is covered in wool felt (the two little felt discs under the clamping ring are there to protect the binding posts while taking the photo).

R3qtr_02.jpg
Above : The assembly is bolted to the horn. Once the bolts are "tight", the gap between the clamping ring and the rear face of the horn will remain; this is to permit compression of the felt seal between the mating surfaces of the chamber and the horn, as well as putting a resonance-canceling load on the cylinder. It also permits adding a longer piece of sewer pipe should a larger rear chamber volume become necessary. So, ready to start tuning!


jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
07-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
be
Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts 86
Joined on 02-12-2007

Post #: 79
Post ID: 7827
Reply to: 7826
The coupling from chamber to horn
Very nice project you have, an inspiring effort!
Loking at the pictures it seems to me that you are using felt in front of the chamber front plate to seal the coupling between the horn and the chamber?
This could cause some problems if the felt sheat is open towards the horn throat.
Here the sound presure is at the highest and and the sheat could function as a strongly dampened porous chamber, depending on how much the felt is compressed.
Since the area of the front of the felt sheat is quite large it might be difficult to compress it enough, dispite the large bolts to get rid of the porousity.
My experience with placing felt in the throat area is that it is very effective in making the sound go flacid.
Maybe, to avoid possible problems, you could use a rubber o ring or some corck?

Regards be
07-16-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 80
Post ID: 7828
Reply to: 7809
Life at speaker-level (+ Photos)
Quotes from Romy in blue:

"...Anyhow, I do not know at which stage your project is what I think you are somewhere in a process of integrating the drivers..."

I would like to stabilize the system, and listen to the existing horns, while starting work on the mid-bass horns. Why the rush? Simple: Summer is here and I need to get the fiberglass and resin going now, otherwise I'll be freezing my butt off with the windows open this winter (can't afford to breath any more toxic fumes!).

For the past couple of weeks, I've been working with crossovers, as well as some final details (like replacing the bits of scrap wire I've been using between drivers, with new wire).

"...Do not forget that any audio project is a wonderful opportunity to buy another set of stupid audio tools – your case is not an exception..."

Man I'm right there with you on that one... On top of that, I have a major weakness for well-made boat anchors! One day I will post a photo of all my stupid audio tools...

I like the idea of the Poineer crossover... Regarding digital units; just looking at the face plate on the one from Behringer scares me (perfectly intuitive for someone "from the other side", which means it would take me two weeks to understand), but it is surely a very capable unit. It is no accident that I live right next to a shop selling really nice coils, and pretty decent caps; I don't mind the work of swapping components... It was just difficult to get things to move in the right direction with mic placed in the listening position.

"...when you use the crossover prototyping tools you do not listening the actual sound of channel. Instead you practice the target listening – try to hear exactly what you need. I found it is self-educational..."

I'll keep this in mind.

"...Still, the fixed coils and caps might do – you can always parallel of serialize them…"

Yes, I have been.

If I were you I would not think at this point about DSET.  The DSET has own complexities and before trying to assess those complexities you need to have a references how your acoustic system shell perform before it will be enriched or screwed by DSET. Your Lamm ML2.0 shall do wonderful job to drive your thing…

I am not for the moment thinking about DSET amps for myself, but looking at the RTA curves and trying to get what I want from the various drivers does tend to underline the advantages of this aproach. For example, killing the output from my upper-bass horn above 700Hz... Every time I stick a coil on the driver (any of the drivers I've tried in that horn), I end up pulling it back off let it go full-range.

Back in your "full-range amp/speaker-level crossover days", you wrote that a coil used with the upper-bass horn, tends to "talk" with the S2s... In my case, I don't know if this is what's happening... Need to do some target listening. I keep telling myself that I MUST use a coil with this horn... I mean, I have a lower-mid horn etc... But the system just sounds better with the upper-bass horns running full range.

In any case, again, I'd like to get the existing system to a stable state... Sort of a foundation to which I can add the mid-bass horns.

BTW, here are some photos showing one frame loaded with horns and drivers :

F3qtr_02.jpg


SV_detail_02.jpg


R3qtr_01.jpg

There is space, and the frames are strong enough to support an additional load, but for the moment, I don't imagine adding anything.

jd*

PS : I will most likely be going with a hyperbolic/exponential profile for the mid-bass horns... Anyone know of a good Hypex profile generator? Also, yes, I've sort of started to admit that rectangular horns are probably the way to go... Believe it or not, they will be more difficult and require more tooling than round horns. No matter, they offer the advantage of preserving access the kitchen.




How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
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  »  New  The IDEAL horn system..  Serious Coax? Where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     27  195805  12-11-2005
  »  New  Exceptional loudspeakers drivers..  Compression tweeters...  Audio Discussions  Forum     34  424201  06-12-2006
  »  New  Evaluation of tractrix curves based on visual surface r..  Re: The Delay of Time Delay...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     17  169909  06-20-2006
  »  New  5 Channel Version of Melquiades..  Very easy....  Melquiades Amplifier  Forum     21  252364  07-23-2006
  »  New  45Hz Bass Horn..  Can We Ever be Saved From Ourselves?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  315491  09-19-2006
  »  New  Practical Guide for Back Chambers Tuning...  Back chamber’s cost-benefit....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  76002  10-21-2006
  »  New  The most promising “best” commercial speaker..  Amplifier Speaker Matching...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     231  1819886  12-06-2006
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680564  07-29-2007
  »  New  Proximity of horn’s crossover and it’s ability to care ..  Does this explain or relate to the "trombone"...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  37287  09-16-2007
  »  New  The Macondo’s Upper Bass Channel: what is next?..  Görlich again...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     30  290766  10-28-2007
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  1197738  11-19-2007
  »  New  About bass horns by Johan Dreyer..  There are lowest bass horns and there are not lowest b...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     5  94775  02-11-2008
  »  New  The absolutely “best” material for horns construction...  Lately......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     41  308251  02-23-2008
  »  New  Macondo vs. the “industry sponsored speakers”..  Correction : "Man in the street"...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     4  59547  05-11-2008
  »  New  Building a new music room..  Here is my take for a room that I would like to deal wi...  Playback Listening  Forum     20  147355  10-16-2007
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  2145812  07-26-2009
  »  New  About beauty and ugliness of horn speakers...  And of course there is always something like this…....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  35410  09-21-2009
  »  New  My Multi-way Horns..  Faital chamber/ratio...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  127356  11-29-2009
  »  New  The 5-ways from Germany...  Another Kid?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     38  256432  12-06-2009
  »  New  New speaker system..  One more horn speaker system to look at...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  92059  03-16-2010
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2975482  05-20-2010
  »  New  Adding one more non-spherical to Macondo...  Horn suggestions for 300Hz-1000Hz channel...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  249260  12-15-2010
  »  New  Rakeshorns..  Excellent walls....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     33  299117  08-26-2011
  »  New  Looking to brainstorm stand ideas..  Fair enough...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  19852  12-06-2011
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  It is simple, but......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     87  319310  01-20-2016
  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  The "old" servo......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  343934  06-20-2015
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