| Search | Login/Register
   Home » Playback Listening » Accuracy vs. Musicality (and YMMV) (95 posts, 5 pages)
  Print Thread | 1st Post |  
Page 5 of 5 (95 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
01-17-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 81
Post ID: 29515
Reply to: 29513
More about cable elevators..
 Paul S wrote:
Great answer, Romy, at least for me. I still like Camus the more for excluding Stalin (the person), even at the expense of Sartre, and of course I do not conflate Communism with... whatever. I like the way you are working with language here, like a young Peirce. Dialog may still be possible, to judge by that post.

Paul S
Mike, it’s interesting that you mentioned dialogue. Yesterday I had a conversation with my audio friend about how my thinking on audio has evolved over the last four years. I brought him up to date on where I am now and asked whether it makes sense to speak about this publicly. His reaction was that almost no one would be able to understand it. He is right about the difficulty of comprehension, and wrong about the significance of that difficulty.


I’m seriously considering recording a video and laying the whole thing out, not as advocacy, but as clarification. I’m no longer surprised by where I ended up; in retrospect, the trajectory is coherent and almost unavoidable. What has lost all mystery for me is how trivial, and often absurd, most of our so-called audio frustrations appear once you step back and examine the objectives that drive them. In audio, and in music more broadly, many of those objectives are poorly examined substitutes for meaning, transcendence, or control, and the frustration they generate is largely self-produced.

From a certain perspective, the consumption of musical or audio experience unfolds in a vacuum, detached from its own sonic, aesthetic, and ultimately even ethical context. At this point the act of composing and listening cease to be primarily sensational and become informational, a form of communication operating at the level of consciousness itself. When techniques emerge that allow communication directly at that level, much of what we produce as music—those shamanic, quasi-ritual gestures of shaking air with instruments or machines—begins to lose its centrality.

This is a delicate threshold. Music can serve as an initiator of a conscious stream, a structured sequence that catalyzes awareness, perhaps even guiding possibility into experience. But the conscious stream does not belong to music. There is a subtle and essential decoupling between musical intention—the attempt to evoke consciousness—and the consciousness that arises in response. Music may open the door, but what passes through it is no longer musical in nature.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-17-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 82
Post ID: 29517
Reply to: 29515
.... and I have answers...
I am a little afraid that Jarek, after reading the end of my last post, will reply, “Roman, what you are describing is just a sequential collapse of the wave function in quantum field” Jarek might be a thousand times wrong about cables elevators, but he would be right about that. There are millions of mysteries in this field, but missing the biggest one is inexcusable: how the fuck did Bach, three hundred years ago, without knowing any of this, operate flawlessly at that level?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-18-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 475
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 83
Post ID: 29518
Reply to: 29517
Operating flawlessly
When the stars line up, magic can happen, regardless if it is DPOLS or Bach's oevre.
What lined up?First and foremost, his talent that in childhood was nurtured inside the family.
Then the "apprenticeship" programs of the day that focussed on the rules and regulations of church music composition (this is a HUGE deal).
Opportunities to get paid with the requirement to create functional music weekly
To have ensembles capable of performing this level of work
Then the requirements to train the choir, organise the soloists, get the orchestra musicians all on the same page
To have creative texters that provide him with the libretti for his works
To have Gottfried Silbermann making magnificent organs
To have public acceptance for new tuning strategies
To have wives fine tuned to give him the space that he needed
To have clergy in the church willing to cooperate
To have a baroque era that was full of cultural, technical discovery AND financing
To have prolific colleagues like Vivaldi, Telemann and Händel
There is a huge amount of additional factors


So we see that Bach was a child of his times. Never since have we had anyone cranking out that quantity of meaningful works. There is immense depth to any one of the things listed.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-18-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,824
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 84
Post ID: 29519
Reply to: 29518
Sharing the Wealth
Great Context, Robin. And from more or less the same time and place of origin, we have Handel. So much Music pouring from that area for so many years! Starting in my youth, I was agog at their familiarity with Music, including the way it seemed to pervade the area, to the extent that there seemed to be great musicians, ensembles, orchestras, singers and chorales in every berg and hamlet, and they immediately adopted and developed recording and radio as devices for sharing the wealth.

How does this connect with Accuracy vs. Musicality (and YMMV)? Like Romy's recent post declared, one does not gather what one doesn't know.


Best regards,
Paul S
01-18-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 85
Post ID: 29520
Reply to: 29518
Post hoc non est propter hoc
 rowuk wrote:
When the stars line up, magic can happen, regardless if it is DPOLS or Bach's oevre.
What lined up?First and foremost, his talent that in childhood was nurtured inside the family.
Then the "apprenticeship" programs of the day that focussed on the rules and regulations of church music composition (this is a HUGE deal).
Opportunities to get paid with the requirement to create functional music weekly
To have ensembles capable of performing this level of work
Then the requirements to train the choir, organise the soloists, get the orchestra musicians all on the same page
To have creative texters that provide him with the libretti for his works
To have Gottfried Silbermann making magnificent organs
To have public acceptance for new tuning strategies
To have wives fine tuned to give him the space that he needed
To have clergy in the church willing to cooperate
To have a baroque era that was full of cultural, technical discovery AND financing
To have prolific colleagues like Vivaldi, Telemann and Händel
There is a huge amount of additional factors


So we see that Bach was a child of his times. Never since have we had anyone cranking out that quantity of meaningful works. There is immense depth to any one of the things listed.
Rowuk, your enumeration of multiple reasons for success is certainly accurate, but don’t you feel that they are exactly aligned with my own enumeration of reasons why electricity might be good or bad for sound? I can give many very valid reasons why electricity is bad, but I cannot give a single reason why it is good—despite the fact that electrical sound can be spectacular, even though all objective indicators show that it is not a “special” event. The same applies to Bach if one approaches him from the direction you took in your post.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-20-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 475
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 86
Post ID: 29523
Reply to: 29520
Curiosity killed the cat, electricity brought him back...
Why things happen in my view, is a matter of from how many thousands of miles up you are looking at those things.

If we are too close to a subject, often we can not see beyond the tip of our noses. I believe this is where "love" and "hate" thrive and are closely related. 

As we move further out, we get to the "Wehret den Anfängen" stage where we want to intervene early against dangerous developments before they become too big and can no longer be stopped, derived from Ovid, but today particularly associated with the warning of right-wing radicalism, populism and extremist tendencies in the face of the history of National Socialism. It means acting decisively at the first signs of loss of freedom, misanthropy or threat to democracy in order to prevent worse by resisting in the beginning. I believe that a lot of audiophilism gets stuck here with bogus arguments about having to rescue "sound" from digititis (as well as many other things). A lot of the "problems" with electricity also show up here. This was also something that Jazz and 12 tone music suffered from in their early days.

Moving alot further out, we start to see context. In the case of Bach, we do see the extraordinary qualities that comes from having the stars line up. It requires a lot from the viewer in the way of understanding the vast context as well as sometimes accepting our own mortality and not having enough time on earth to figure the rest out. In the case of electricity, we do not have this issue. The problems are AFTER (not because of) the electrical event. The "because" is in our listening habits, maybe even in the audio gear or media. There is no "growth" or "life" intrinsic to electricity. We are not enslaved and can very well "learn" to deal with it (change listening habits, move to areas without electrical events, new gear, less stereo/more live concerts, learn to read scores, etc.). 

In the case of Bach, he wrote new rules for musical engagement and regardless of how much time and energy we spend, there is always more - for me anyway. I can not "learn" to live with it. Every encounter is something new. Every time that I read a score anew, I pick up something else. BECAUSE he had all the cards in his hand, his oevre is simply more complete and this basically is very much a tool that shows me how small I really am. Although similarly prolific, Händel and Telemann did not write new rules. That is a HUGE difference historically, musically and electrically. Their popularity did not wane like Bachs did.

Funny enough, after Bach's death his works were not played again until Mendelssohn dug some out (he did not have the musicians with the proficiency to perform many of the compositions). Then they disappeared again until the 1920s and have been expanding ever since as musicians developed the skills to reengage.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-20-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 475
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 87
Post ID: 29524
Reply to: 29520
Curiosity killed the cat, electricity brought him back.....
Triple. The site was very slow and erratic. No post delete possible.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-21-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 644
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 88
Post ID: 29525
Reply to: 29517
It's not a collapse, it's the opposite
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 I never described at my site “those moments” and I do not think that the value of the moments could be understood from listening music. 

Your posts/videos is the only place, apart from the philosophical/spiritual literature, I've seen a precise description of those moments (or events), very close to how I feel them.  No, their value is in themselves only and in nothing else. Music can help igniting them, which is exactly what you are saying below:
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 Music can serve as an initiator of a conscious stream, a structured sequence that catalyzes awareness, perhaps even guiding possibility into experience. But the conscious stream does not belong to music. There is a subtle and essential decoupling between musical intention—the attempt to evoke consciousness—and the consciousness that arises in response. Music may open the door, but what passes through it is no longer musical in nature.  

Bingo! 
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I am a little afraid that Jarek, after reading the end of my last post, will reply, “Roman, what you are describing is just a sequential collapse of the wave function in quantum field” Jarek might be a thousand times wrong about cables elevators, but he would be right about that. There are millions of mysteries in this field, but missing the biggest one is inexcusable: how the fuck did Bach, three hundred years ago, without knowing any of this, operate flawlessly at that level?

Collapse, however mysterious the process is (I've spent past 10+ yrs on that and counting),  is in a sense boring - the coherence is lost inevitably. I see those moments as the opposite - there is a large scale coherence built, coherence with your own self, with your past, with the universe. This is closer to entanglement - quantum coherence of many parts making them inseparable, coherence that seems to exist beyond the space and time.
You can hate me for that, but I don't think Bach operated at any higher spiritual level, more like he operated in local Kneipen. " But this doesn't matter. If his music elevates the listener, all the rest are details. For me it doesn't work. "Too intellectual" did not have the tone I wanted in light of Rowuk's comment. More like "too little heart". 
And Bach and math, or in general music and math - I'm not directly in the subject but close to it thanks to two colleagues from work, with one I share the office, concerts, and music discussions.  Recently heard a lecture of apparently a renown mathematician in the field, Lane Hughston, and it was rather pathetic. I think the whole field suffers from the same sickness that Romy has identified and been exposing in audio for two decades now: lack of correlation between mathematical structures that people try to see in music and our perceptions. Assigning e.g. group theory structures to chord combinations tells as much about how we perceive those chords as cable elevators tell about the sound. I've heard about someone who recently ran machine algorithm through all Bach's work looking for those group-theory related chords and found only about 2-3% of them in total. But my office colleague did make some interesting small discovery, connecting math and known facts about our tone perception, I'll share it when it's published.




Cheers,
Jarek
01-21-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,824
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 89
Post ID: 29526
Reply to: 29525
Recognitions
As though "the event existed ahead of time", or "it came to pass as I recognized it". We already accept that Time is variable.

Paul S
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 475
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 90
Post ID: 29527
Reply to: 29519
My mileage does vary
 Paul S wrote:
Great Context, Robin. And from more or less the same time and place of origin, we have Handel. So much Music pouring from that area for so many years! Starting in my youth, I was agog at their familiarity with Music, including the way it seemed to pervade the area, to the extent that there seemed to be great musicians, ensembles, orchestras, singers and chorales in every berg and hamlet, and they immediately adopted and developed recording and radio as devices for sharing the wealth.

How does this connect with Accuracy vs. Musicality (and YMMV)? Like Romy's recent post declared, one does not gather what one doesn't know.


Best regards,
Paul S

To claim accuracy, we must understand what it is that we are talking about. In the case of audio playback, there is no "accuracy", no replication of the original by any stretch of the imagination.  If we are talking about the playback of Bach organ works, we can however get accurate content in the realms of rhythm, pitch, proportion, articulation which can lead to a plausible and satisfying "musical" experience. There are many recordings so transparent, that I can close my eyes and "see" the score - if the playback is adequate. If we lose pitch accuracy, the transparency suffers. Less articulate systems can be transparent, but the rhythm can suffer. The musical experience needs additional brainwork to fill in the holes.

This brings me back to Romys mention of granite - and seeing not the block, rather the sculpture possible. Accuracy or musicality are personally defined and the object to sculpt is very dependent on the fantasy and capability of the person picking and using the tools to model our systems. This is related to my post on Bach being a child of his time. Without all of the factors listed, Bach could have just been another composer, brilliant but lost to the future or mediocre and well supported. Because his time was well trained, documented, well financed, with great public interest, he thrived in ways that others did not. We can say that Händel, Telemann, Purcell, Boyce, Torelli, Corelli also were brilliant and prolific but we can not claim that they were a REVOLUTION, a turning point in musical history. What we can say however, is that even today, Bach is often considered way too intellectual for casual listening but is casual listening a subject for the GoodSoundClub?

Sculpting intellectuality, accuracy and musicality in a sound system could also be something where we need a "Bach" to create new rules of engagement. They also would have to be a child of their time. If I think back through audio history, there are certainly "pioneers" in their own rights but the holistic genius that created a "complete" work is still missing. The rules of engagement have not really changed since the beginning of playback. Frequency response and dynamics have improved, but there still is so much missing - in fact so much that there are arguments about Accuracy vs. Musicality!


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 91
Post ID: 29528
Reply to: 29525
I'm not completely with you, Jarek... .but not because Bach

As I mentioned above, we collect in our basket only the mushrooms we already know. That metaphor is heavily loaded in my view, because it points to a fundamental limitation of familiarity-based cognition. I appreciate your concept of quantum coherence precisely because of its cross-disciplinary resonance and the direction of thinking it opens.



However, the second part of your response, where you speak about Bach, is completely confusing to me. The question of Bach and mathematics is valid as a question, but not as an answer, because it produces a large amount of correlational data without explaining the underlying reasons why Bach is considered “mathematical.” This is what I call a failure of the second level: a state in which we develop fluency around a phenomenon, and that fluency masquerades as understanding. Worse, it often blocks the very impulse to ask about underlying causes. You see, most people operate at a very effective but very simplistic relationship between reality and its reflection. This is what is called object-level understanding. At this level, objects of reality have names, have properties, and in life we map those properties onto experience. This mapping gives us orientation, predictability, and practical competence; it is how we learn that fire burns, that a chair supports weight, that a word points to a thing.



The second level emerges when consciousness becomes capable of observing not only objects, but its own understanding of those objects as a non-involved witness. This metacognitive monitoring is a very powerful stance of consciousness, because it permits observation of data and observation of how that data is interpreted, applied, and acted upon. Thoughts, assumptions, emotional colorings, and narratives can be seen as objects rather than as the self, allowing a person to distinguish perception from interpretation and evidence from conclusion.



However, the second level carries a subtle but serious limitation. While it allows reflection, it often substitutes recognition for understanding. At this stage, people competently recognize nouns and attach adjectives and verbs to them, forming descriptions that feel meaningful and complete, yet they rarely examine why those nouns are connected to those attributes at all. Linguistic fluency, conceptual familiarity, and internal coherence are mistaken for comprehension, even when the underlying causal or structural relationships remain unexamined. The reference to nouns, adjectives, and verbs here is purely illustrative; language is used only as a convenient model for demonstrating relational understanding, not as the subject of the argument itself.



This limitation can be captured by the mushroom-basket metaphor. Cognitively, we tend to collect only what we already recognize, filtering experience through familiar categories and leaving the unfamiliar untouched. The danger arises when the basket is mistaken for the forest, when what is known begins to define what is even visible. Third-level awareness begins when attention turns to the selection mechanism itself, why these recognitions and not others, and what structures determine what can enter the basket at all.



The third level of metacognitive monitoring emerges precisely at this fault line. It appears when a person develops the natural capacity to judge the quality of their own understanding. At this level, one no longer asks only what do I think or how am I interpreting this, but do I actually understand why these concepts are connected. Recognition and fluency are no longer trusted as evidence; understanding must demonstrate causal or structural necessity rather than merely produce elegant correlations.



This is the level toward which figures like Richard Feynman consistently pointed. His insistence that knowing the name of something is not the same as understanding it reflects a third-level awareness that models, explanations, and symbols are interfaces rather than reality itself, a stance shared, across very different domains, by many people included somebody like Terence McKenna, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Bach, Wagner, Camus and Carl Jung.



Jung, however, stands apart as an extreme case. He carried third-level metacognitive monitoring to an almost inhuman degree by consciously observing the myth-producing mechanisms of the psyche while they were operating within him. Very few minds have sustained that position without collapse, which is why his work remains both dangerous and foundational.

At the third level, metacognitive monitoring becomes structural rather than episodic. One observes not just thoughts or biases, but the epistemic scaffolding that generates entire worldviews, using explanations without reifying them and symbols without realizing them. Wisdom here is no longer the possession of correct beliefs, but fluency across models combined with disciplined humility toward all of them.



Why am I writing about this on a high-end audio site? This is a very good question, and the answer may shock you. Audio, ironically very much like music as its own discipline, exists perfectly comfortably at the first level of metacognitive monitoring. At the second level, music is still fine, but audio begins to look structurally unsound, revealing a huge number of gaping holes, which makes it even dangerous to touch. At the third level, the most amazing things happen: audio completely ceases to exist, and, very ironically, music disappears as well. They still exist as nouns and as practices of understanding, but they completely lose self-importance and value and become just part of the general mosaic of reality. What remains is something like binary noise, which denies any stable understanding or pattern recognition.



And this is where the magic happens. The anxiety and discomfort a person feels when faced with the fact that stable understanding is impossible suddenly become a powerful privilege. Ambiguity becomes more powerful and more humane than familiarity or knowledge ever were. Even if many audio people regard my position as completely absurd, and even if only a very few recognize what I am pointing toward, I have no identity invested in defending it; my only commitment is to follow thought wherever it unfolds.



Jarek, I have absolutely no opinion about you, nor any need to love or hate you based on whether you love or hate Bach; this conversation is, ironically, not about Bach at all. You may not understand what I am pointing to now, but if something changes for you in the future and you discover a genuine love or appreciation for Bach and begin to wonder why, you are welcome to contact me, and I will offer you a fully developed structural explanation—one you will not find in the thousands of books written about this composer.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 92
Post ID: 29529
Reply to: 29527
Being diabolical...
Robin, you made two interesting posts that I did not respond to; I wish I had more time. Very briefly—and not because it is important, but because I find it conspicuous and somewhat alarming—I am not sure I share your alarmed sentiments about national socialism. I certainly do not celebrate it, but I also do not attach a purely negative value to it in itself.


You see, in my mind national socialism is an unavoidable and completely natural final stage of our current societal trajectory, and it is a direction toward which all countries will eventually move. So when I say it is “normal,” I do not mean that it is good; I mean that it is typical, common, and highly predictable from an algorithmic point of view. I do not criticize national socialism as such. I criticize the humane social model that unavoidably leads to it—and that model is what we currently have almost everywhere in the world. Since I recognize that there are other possible paths, I do not particularly care about national socialism, communism, capitalism, or any other completely artificial construct.


You also  in your last response, the first part, where you spoke about accuracy in audio. I absolutely disagree with you, and to explain why I would need a lot of cigars and at least an hour—not writing, but talking. Let me be a bit cryptic and tell you a story instead.


A lot has happened for me since that story. It was in 1999, and at that time I was very close to the Lamm family. Vladimir and I were discussing some amplifier, which turned into a broader debate. At some point, both of us used the word “accuracy,” and then the conversation stopped. Vladimir asked me what I understood accuracy to mean. I answered him more or less along the same lines you outlined in your response, and along the lines generally accepted in this thread and elsewhere.


Vladimir told me that my understanding was absolutely incorrect—almost idiotic—and that there was a completely different meaning of accuracy. What was remarkable is that he did not offer any detailed explanation of his version. He simply told me that I was entirely wrong, even at the level of what I thought the word “accuracy” meant in audio. It was almost diabolical—and Vladimir was quite capable of that—but it was also pedagogically brilliant. Had he explained it to me at that time, I would not have been able to understand it.


It took me several months of thinking before I finally understood what Vladimir Lamm was pointing to. The key was not discovering the concept itself, but realizing that in order to understand it, many other interrelated things first had to be discovered and understood. After that moment, I spent another two years in close contact with Vladimir, and we never discussed the subject explicitly again. However, we had many conversations in which audio, accuracy, and transparency were implicitly involved. After I “got it,” I never again had the feeling that Vladimir disagreed with my application of these ideas. So I would not say that Vladimir taught me about transparency or accuracy directly—but without his challenge at that moment, I do not think I would ever have arrived at that understanding.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 475
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 93
Post ID: 29530
Reply to: 29529
Wehret den Anfängen (Ovids Principiis obsta) is an established saying for centuries
Roman,it was not my desire to directly compare the third Reich to audio (as Ovid does predate the third Reich by a bit), rather to describe one of the first primitive and misguided steps in audio. Of course there is logic in building a house with a solid foundation and getting obsessed with the foundation before the house dimensions are even established was more the direction intended. In Germany, "Wehret den Anfängen" is in popular use these days when the established society is under attack. This is a form of distortion that, once understood is not particularly bothersome (to me).

My take on audio accuracy is like my take on Bach - there is a lot more than just an amp or just harmonies. As I do not even consider accuracy to be a "thing" in audio hardware, I do not chase it. My interests are in my application. Just like Bach contemporaries did not have a method to modulate from C Major to E Major elegantly, it took that special person to create functional rules for this and that is truly revolutionary. After Bach, this was no longer a problem.

I have read your take on Lamms magic X-Factor as well as Melquiades power supply scheme and think that I understand what you mean. I am retired now and will have a lot more time to reconsider my audio. This is why discussions like this are perfectly timed. No changes until I can identify something (repeatable) that I don't like.

I would, like many people here at GSC enjoy an hour of your time.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,824
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 94
Post ID: 29531
Reply to: 29530
Again With Perspective
One man's Stargate is another man's ayahuasca, and another man's Webb telescope. It's good to have a nice, thorough shake-up every so often. Can we say, broadly speaking, that perspective is involved, AKA, "viewpoint"? Of course "accuracy" needs coordinates, just like everything else requires context. Great Dialog we have here. Nice to have "Audio Horizons" widened to include More Music (for a change), including "non-musical" features.

Paul S
01-22-2026 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,417
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 95
Post ID: 29532
Reply to: 29530
The quote of the year!
 rowuk wrote:
 My take on audio accuracy is like my take on Bach - there is a lot more than just an amp or just harmonies. As I do not even consider accuracy to be a "thing" in audio hardware, I do not chase it. My interests are in my application.

Robin, your statement — “my interests are in my application” — expresses a far more sophisticated epistemological position than it might appear at first glance. It is not a casual preference, nor merely a pragmatic orientation. It is not even fully a choice. Rather, it is the articulation of a deep principle about how knowledge comes into being and how meaning is validated.
 
At its core, this formulation rejects the idea that knowledge exists primarily as an abstract, detached structure waiting to be contemplated. Instead, it asserts that understanding emerges through use, through embodiment, through action. What you are pointing to is the primacy of application as the site where truth reveals itself. Knowledge that remains unapplied is, in this view, incomplete—not false, but unrealized or… become irrelevant. It is like in Software engineering you can make a functionality and to be able to work with any abstract objects that have no specific definitions.
 
This is why the phrase is not simply instrumental or utilitarian. It does not say, “I value usefulness over theory.” It says something much stronger: that theory itself is inseparable from its enactment. Interests are not arbitrary preferences layered on top of cognition; they are expressions of orientation. To say that your interests are in your application is to acknowledge that your cognitive commitments are structured by engagement with reality, not abstraction from it.
 
There is also an implicit humility in this stance. It recognizes that one does not stand outside the system of knowledge as a sovereign observer. Meaning is discovered while doing, not prior to doing. In that sense, the formulation aligns with a deeply embodied sequence: understanding is negotiated between intention, constraint, actions, perception, feedback, and consequence, perception alternation...
 
This is why the statement is not something one simply decides to adopt. It reflects a mode of being in relation to knowledge. It is descriptive before it is normative. You are not claiming superiority over other approaches; you are naming the level at which truth becomes visible for you. And once that level is recognized, it cannot be unrecognized.
What appears simple on the surface is, in fact, a concise expression of a mature epistemic posture: knowledge justified not by elegance alone, nor by coherence alone, but by lived integration with reality itself. Alan White would be happy for you.
 
There are two very different kinds of people in high-end audio. If I were Schopenhauer, I’d say: would say avoid both of them, because both are still forms of attachment. One is attached to external validation; the other is attached to the self and its refinements. From his view, they differ in sophistication, not in bondage. One chases approval, the other chases mastery — but both are still driven by will. But I am not Schopenhauer.
The first type builds and judges a system by looking outward. He relies on reviews, measurements, famous brands, price tags, and what other people say is “correct.” His confidence comes from agreement. If many respected sources praise a component, he feels safe using it. When something sounds wrong, he explains it by pointing outside himself: the room is bad, the recording is bad, the format is bad, or “that’s just how it’s supposed to sound.” His personal identity is not involved. The system could belong to anyone. He is following a map drawn by others.
 
The second type works very differently. He uses his own hearing, memory, nervous system, and lived experience as the primary reference. He listens carefully, changes one thing at a time, and notices how it actually affects him. If something sounds wrong, he assumes responsibility first. He does not ask, “Is this correct according to others?” but “Is this true in my direct experience?” His system is inseparable from him. It could not have been built by someone else, because it reflects how he perceives sound.
 
The difference is not intelligence, money, or technical knowledge. It is where authority lives. In the first person, authority lives outside. Validation is external and projective. He borrows certainty from the group. In the second person, authority lives inside. Validation comes from direct contact with reality. He trusts his own mind, psyche, and experience — and accepts the burden that comes with that trust. This is why the second person is harder to understand and harder to imitate. There is no checklist to follow and no consensus to hide behind. Every decision exposes the person making it. The result is not just a sound system — it is a statement of personal responsibility.
 
That was exactly what I was describing above to Jarek. Three levels of metacognitive monitoring in audio
 
Level 1 — Unreflected perception  - Object Perception

This level is simple: I hear something and I react to it. The person asks questions like:   
  •          Do I like it?
  •          Is it pleasant?
  •          Is it impressive?
  •          Is it better or worse than before?
 
There is no monitoring of how the judgment is formed. Perception is taken at face value. Taste feels natural and self-evident. At this level, the listener assumes their reaction is the reality of the sound. Most people in high-end audio remain here permanently.
 
Why? Because this level is: 
  •          Emotionally comfortable
  •          Easy to narrate
  •          Easy to sell to
  •          Easy to reinforce socially
 
The industry depends on this. Marketing, reviews, brand mythology, price signaling — all of it works only if people do not examine how their perception is being shaped. Level 1 listeners are ideal consumers: sincere, reactive, and confident without being reflective.
 
Level 2 — Monitoring the act of listening (self-awareness)

At the second level, the person begins to notice the listener, not just the sound. Now the questions change:
 
  •          Why did I hear it that way?
  •          What expectations did I bring in?
  •          Did price, reputation, or prior belief influence me?
  •          Would I hear this differently blind, later, or in another mood?
 
This is where most people stop advancing — and many retreat. Why? Because Level 2 introduces instability. Taste no longer feels pure. Certainty weakens. Identity becomes negotiable. The person realizes they are not just hearing sound — they are participating in a psychological process.
 
This level threatens:
 
  •          Review authority
  •          Brand loyalty
  •          Group consensus
  •          Exposed the fakery the idea of “golden ears”
 
As a result, audio culture quietly discourages it. People who linger here are often labeled as overthinking, cynical, or “not enjoying the music.” In reality, they are doing something much more difficult: holding perception and self-doubt at the same time.  Very few people stabilize at this level — but those who do stop being useful to the industry and since the audio community is juts a herd of blind and stupid sheep death of industry means death of community.
 
Level 3 — Monitoring the structure that produces meaning (epistemic awareness)

At the third level, the person no longer focuses primarily on sound or on themselves as a listener. They observe the entire system that makes “audio judgment” possible at all.
 
Questions now look like: 
·         What kind of person does this practice require me to be?
·         What assumptions does this hobby smuggle in?
·         Why do certain distinctions matter here and not elsewhere?
·         What must be ignored for this whole discourse to function?
·         What sensations I consume in respect to my entire physics and believe system
·         Why I am experiencing what I experience.
·         What is relation between my experiences from sound or no-sound to my other non-audio experiences
·         Why at this level change in audio does not reduce my capacity to consume the depth of experiences.
 
At this level, audio is no longer a hobby — it is a case study in human cognition, desire, identity, and projection. And this is the key point I am making: Almost anyone who genuinely reaches this level leaves the audio world. Not because they fail — but because collaboration becomes impossible.
 
Why?
  •          They can no longer speak the shared language sincerely
  •          They cannot pretend certainty they know is constructed
  •          They cannot participate in consensus without self-betrayal 
So, they build private, idiosyncratic audio practices. Systems that make sense to them, for reasons they no longer need to justify publicly. These systems are often excellent — but uninterpretable to others. They do not scale. They cannot be reviewed. They cannot be standardized. From outside, these people seem to “disappear.” In reality, they outgrow the social game.
 
Why most people stay at Level 1?

Not because they are unintelligent. But because:   
  •          Level 1 is rewarded
  •          Level 2 is destabilizing
  •          Level 3 is socially isolating 
The industry survives on people who listen without questioning the act of listening, and it quietly sheds those who do. That is not a moral failure. It is a structural outcome. And once you see that — you cannot unsee it.
 
So, your phrase “my interests are in my application” can be read as coming from the third, epistemic level because it is not a statement of preference or self-trust, but a statement about where knowledge becomes valid at all. At this level, the speaker is no longer interested in sound, theory, consensus, or even personal perception as such; they are interested in what survives being enacted under real constraints. “Application” here means exposure to consequence, where abstractions, explanations, and identities are forced to either hold or collapse. The phrase quietly rejects discourse and validation as final authorities and marks a boundary: only what continues to function when embodied is worth attention, even if it cannot be easily explained, shared, or collaborated on. It it what Also, Alan Watts would proclaimed: the purpose of existence is to exist not to build an artificial contract to justify own existence. That is all good!


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 5 of 5 (95 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5
Home Page  |  Last 24Hours  | Search  |  SiteMap  | Questions or Problems | Copyright Note
The content of all messages within the Forums Copyright © by authors of the posts