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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  708060  07-29-2007
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03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 321
Post ID: 28056
Reply to: 28050
I hear you
Edgar, now I understand what port you meant, the effective one in the Dannoys and the associated phase flip. I've never tried adding bass to a ported design, I'm rather learning here. I understand you have some experience with that? I did some simple simulations of the phase flip and the bass modules as well as got some feedback from another forum - if you go up the thread you will see them. All was rather inconclusive to me. A question: What if the bass modules are passive as well with the same Scanspeak? Then the phase flip of Dannoy and the bass module happen in the same way at the same frequency.


The reverb is a very interesting direction to go indeed. I could build reverb channels around Scanspeaks. What do you use for the reverb?

The microphinic effect is rather negligible here as I power Dannoys with VFET of 150W or so.
Do I get correctly, you tried Dannoy's with 15" Reds? Please share the construction (what passive drivers,, what box volume?) and how it compared to 10" Dannoys??

@Romy I think Dannoys can do more than a girl and banjo (or a guy and a piano) *close field*. This has been at least my experience with listening to baroque through them.




Cheers,
Jarek
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 322
Post ID: 28057
Reply to: 28056
Why do you need more Bass? baroque is fine...
If you remember during my experiments, where I was not able to compliment my Dannoy is any additional LF section, I wrote about it. To add additional passive radiators only songs as a good solution but in reality it will drive the resonance frequency of entire combination lower. As a result, the red driver low frequency cone will have higher excursion and it is something that you absolutely would like not to have. This is a deadly lock, you do not want to over stress red driver low frequency section, but in the same time you would like to have a more excursion from passive radiators. Since they are locked together in the same acoustic suspension I don't think it is possible. A question to you, why do you feel you need the more Bass from Dennoy default configuration?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 323
Post ID: 28058
Reply to: 28057
Not really
Im not sure if you understoid me or me you. I was not talking about adding another cone to the reds in the same volume. But rather adding your bass modules with two scanspeaks, one active, one passive.
I want to enjoy orchestral music too Smile btw Giulini B9 is superb, Ive just scratched its surface. I miss power in the grundton for orchestral music, LF breathing, LF spatial info


Cheers,
Jarek
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 324
Post ID: 28059
Reply to: 28058
Power vs. Vintage Drivers
Welcome, N-set, to another major audio connundrum, broadly "Tone vs. FR vs. Power". Like Romy said, as long as your expectations line up with what you have now, it's all good. You are not alone. Plenty of us would like to have "the best of everything" all the time, with any Music we want to hear. I really hope you figure out a way to "get it all". If you do, and it's +/- turnkey, I will copy you. Meanwhile, I will continue to chronicle my own *Compromises*, which I incorporated to explore bigger and more complex Music without dealing with custom turned horns and self-built, multi-channel DSETs. Like I said somewhere else, you might be able to keep some or even much of what you have with, say, 12" DMTs.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 325
Post ID: 28060
Reply to: 28055
Golds not Reds...
... So im dating Remeides sister who is not quite in the same league as Remedies, I'll admit that but you still can't wipe the smile off my face!And yeah using THE scanspeak.

Re larger passive radiators I have Audio Elegance SBP15 here (but not with Apollo upgrade). if any driver was it Romy, I'd say that's the one. With the A[pllo upgrade though.

Why do i say that, well here is my theory on why the THAT scanspeak is a unicorn first. The motor designers used copper shorting rings or sleeves, or both, im not exactly sure but they made efforts to have the flux NOT move around in the gap. Audio Elegance uses the same approach and take it to the extreme with the Apollo upgrade. Why is that relevant here? Well, there is electrical dampening happening not just mass dampening with Dannoys which is not the usual passive radiator situation.
I think this is what has the SS lock to the Tannoy so well and why it rides it right up into the mid range to impact HF. obviously HF is from another driver but the two join at some point. Also, i think the way the suspension is done contributes significantly to the linearity of the SS and its dampening quality so my guess is if you drop that surround, you are likely to loos a lot of whats gained. 
I asked the robot about the issue and he explains it much better than i do. quote below.

The Special Feature: Copper Shorting Rings

You've highlighted something crucial! The Scanspeak 25W/8565-00 indeed features a sophisticated motor design with copper shorting rings (sometimes called Faraday rings or a copper sleeve). This is a major factor in what you're hearing.

Here's how these shorting rings dramatically enhance performance:

How They Work

The copper shorting rings are conductive loops positioned around the pole piece of the magnet. They create their own short-circuit paths within the motor structure itself. These rings allow eddy currents to flow even when the external terminals are open, effectively providing a form of "built-in damping circuit" that works independently of external connections.

Their Acoustic Benefits

These rings contribute to your excellent sound in several ways. They reduce voice coil inductance, creating more consistent impedance across frequencies. They minimize distortion by counteracting asymmetrical magnetic forces that occur during cone movement. The rings improve transient response by allowing faster acceleration and deceleration of the cone. Finally, they linearize the motor, making behavior more predictable at various excursion levels.

In Your Passive Radiator Application

As a passive radiator, these shorting rings are particularly beneficial because they provide significant electromagnetic damping even with open terminals. They create more controlled, less "boomy" bass response. The rings help manage the "overhang" (how quickly bass notes start and stop). Additionally, they reduce intermodulation distortion in the system.

This specialized motor design is almost certainly a key factor in why your unconventional design works so exceptionally well. The copper shorting rings essentially give you the benefits of electromagnetic damping without needing to manually short the terminals!


So Romy, yeah a varibale resistor on those terminals is going to change things but i'd guess, all in the wrong ways.

I do have another idea though that may work. that is a pretty hesitant may though! but it is making some sense in my head. I'll post again soon.

Also, I have been holding out on posting pics as i generally dont post them anywhere but ill get you some eye candy soon N-set.
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 326
Post ID: 28061
Reply to: 28056
Start with whatever you have on hand for RI
Dont build something exotic as it is absolutely not required to get started. Use whatever loudspeakers you have and can fit in your space or slap something together, it really does not matter initially.

Go pick up a shitty Yamaha suround sound amp and rip any terminals of the back of it that are not for rears and get going! For $50 you can be up and running. 

MY Dannoy 15s internal box volume is about 60 liters




03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 327
Post ID: 28062
Reply to: 28060
I think it would be insightful
 Edgar= wrote:
.
So Romy, yeah a varibale resistor on those terminals is going to change things but i'd guess, all in the wrong ways.

If this statement was to be validated or disproved.
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 328
Post ID: 28063
Reply to: 28060
Wow, I need to start buying the lottery tickets
I never took my thinking deeper than just dropping my Sanspeak and to declare it as an accidental success. What you are saying completely makes sense. I always thought that the Sanspeak SD1 motor in the way you need it overhang design this  long VC but I never thought anything about that copper ring and what advantage  it might have any advantages as a passive radiator. I know nothing about passive radiators and this Sanspeak is the only passive radiator I ever used. I do not remember now what made me to load Ted with Sanspeak but I assure you that it was not a sophisticated thinking and anln ability to produce a result. 



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 329
Post ID: 28064
Reply to: 28063
Intuition and happy accident
and the discernment to hear the result.

Thinking about it more, there are 5 coupled dampening mechanisms in effect, 6 if you add the variable resistor.
1. mechanical - the surround and spider create a mechanical spring
2. acoustical - the air in the box creates dampening through compression and rectification and viscosity effects
3. copper shorting rings as discussed
4. mutual acoustic coupling - the resonant couplings between the SS and Tannoy
5. radiation dampening - energy lost from the system to sound
And voice coil electromagnetic dampening if one were to add a variable resistor across the terminals of the SS

Dont buy a lotto ticket because your luck ended the day after THAT night by the sounds of it. no wonder why when one considers the above.

The good news is this is clarifying and i might just have an idea worth exploring.
If it is true that Dannoy special sauce may be coming from Farradays rings then how do we leave that be and counter the phase flip?
My proposal is to use another amplifier with either a 6db or 12db passive low pass filter somwhere around F3 and drive the scan speak with it.

Above xover freq the amplifiers output Independence will be high and leave the voice coil effectively open, so to speak, leaving the dampening to be how we know it, but below xover frequency the impedance is low so the voice-coil starts to conduct and electromechanical dampening enters the picture. This may or may not be beneficial, will have to discover that but the significant thing is we can now force the passive, now passive/active radiator back into phase below F3. 

The level of compensation is adjustable through amplifier gain. The xover point is adjustable through traditional means.
I am seeing in my head this might make the Scanspeak immune to resonate coupling below x-over frequency, leave it to do its own thing above, flattening out the phase curve and allow integration with another channel.
Are seeing the same thing I am here?

If and its a big if, this worked to straighten Dannoys tail out and one could properly integrate other channels, that would be a game changer. That would open up the potential for something like a 10"Dannoy complimented by a 15" Dannoy with 2 x Scanspeak drivers for the 15 dropping that  F3 down even further. That sounds tasty....
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 330
Post ID: 28065
Reply to: 28064
Good luck to anybody who goes there.
What you saying is fine but there are nuances: it's need to be tried, the results need to be absorbed and properly evaluated, and further steps to tune it up need to be done. It is not about concepts but about small subtleties and small tunings and it is purely a labor of love somebody who will dive into it. I do not think any of it might be try on 10-in driver but 15 in driver has significantly more reserve. If it were up to me I would probably try two passive resonators, one at 20 Hertz and another at 40 Hertz. I would not try to add to the system any additional low frequency sections. Maybe another 15 in red driver without high frequency Twitter. I would not add any additional low frequency section to it. You are absolutely correct, the phase mess will be not resolvable. What surprises me, why Tannoy never went to this direction. I think if they did they would hit a huge success. One way or another I'm glad the time off this project as it has more questions then answers, at least to me.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 331
Post ID: 28066
Reply to: 28065
A labor of love indeed
I am with you on most of the above except now I DO think the phase flip is resolvable. If, and like you say until tested and absorbed it is an if, if the liniarisation effect can be maintained whilst the phase flip countered then there is no reason why Dannoy cannot be intergrated into any system like any other channel in a sealed enclosure. 

That opens up a lot of possibilities. 
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 332
Post ID: 28067
Reply to: 28064
Nice!
Edgar, very interesting idea. I see if I manage to get some extra amp and drive the SS like you say. Also the idea of 15" Red + 2xSS sounds cool. Maybe someone has 15" Reds and could try (they are pricey)
But I still have one question that stands unanswered Smile  What happens adding lower channel with the same scanspeak as a passive radiator? Say Romy's 40Hz sealed box, 1 scanspeak active + 1 passive? Then the phase behavior should match that of Dannoy as it is controlled by the passive radiator. The max SPL that such a module can produce will be much lower than the ROmys module with both SS active but still. 



Cheers,
Jarek
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 333
Post ID: 28068
Reply to: 28067
"The Same Phase Behavior"
Jarek, I also like to try to think a project through as much as I can (stand to) before actually doing it. Though I have not had my first attention on this project, I think (based on experience) it would be hard to predict how phase might impact sound from any of your proposed implementations, not to mention, it's hard to control phase in a reactive system. I'm thinking you will have to actually try it to find out, at least I could not really predict sonic results from any data set I've seen for this so far. I keep thinking, any "offset" might do more audible harm than good.

Paul S
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 334
Post ID: 28069
Reply to: 28067
I would advise to not waste time on it
Jarek, you cannot have those experiments with 10 in driver as it is already at the bottom of its low frequency capacity. You need to go for 15 in but from low frequency perspective it is a completely different driver and you need to experiment yourself. If you load read this one passive and one active, loaded in the same acoustic volume then it will drive red's low frequency cone way beyond its comfort zone. When I make all those experiments it was very freaky. You can find my posts, I was well documented. As I loaded red as it was to the Scanspeaks as it was the result was wonderful. Any my single attempt trying to improve anything made it worse. From the way how I see it now I do not feel it is a good project for imitation or for research into it deeper. It certainly made red to sound significantly better than it is. It is very addictive and very pleasurable but s voice said above It has very metal application when it shines. It is certainly a good playground to make experiments but I don't think is that it is a fruitful solution to put a high stake upon the idea.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-20-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021

Post #: 335
Post ID: 28070
Reply to: 28067
The question has been answered, indirectly
I was wondering if you had seen it yet. :-)
My answer is it's not going to work. Excluding the remote possibility that the compensation system does work but thats a big if at the moment.
Try answer this question, it might help. For the sake of this, lets say your Dannoys F3 in your room is 25hz. Now picture in your mind how the cone of the Scanspeak and the cone of the Tannoy move with respect to each other in these two scenarios. 
First one i inject a 30hz tone into the room and second scenario I inject 20hz tone into the room. Not through Dannoy but from a separate ULF channel. The answer to your question lies there...

IMG_9004.JPG
03-21-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 336
Post ID: 28071
Reply to: 28070
F3 = 25Hz?
If this were anywhere near the case it would likely be more than enough, as is. From what Romy has told us there is basically no bottom end with the 10" Red Dunnoy. And the very limited bottom end is "by design" quite unlikely to blend with the TOP END of anything used under it, even if the "ULF" speakers use a passive radiator, not to mention this actually kicks in at that speaker's bottom end. Edgar, I suspect you have more LF from your Dunnoy to start with than Jarek does from his.

Paul S
03-21-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 337
Post ID: 28072
Reply to: 28070
Thank you for the picture.
Edgar, when you stick your 15-in red into the box and load it to the Sanspeak.... Did you do it in the enclosures that you have in your hands or it was specifically built for this application? Is the last, what you were trying to accomplish and what total resonance frequency you were targeting? What you have supposed to be better solution then 10 in red s15 can handle much more, without being stressed. May I ask you, to describe what problem you can hear in your configuration? I wonder if they are the same as I had eventually with 10 in red


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-23-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 338
Post ID: 28073
Reply to: 28070
Right
I've been thinking how to counter your argument but looks like I cannot apart from a "majority vote" argument: Using sealed subs and pahse aligning them to Tannoy, below f3 there will be 3 membarnes in phase (Yannoy + 2x active SS) and one out of phase (Fannoy SS PR).  But you are right, sth will always be out of phase below f3 (which seems to be 43Hz in my case) and actually a passive radiator sub looks like a *worse* idea than a sealed one. Sealed one has a smooth phase behavior while a PR sub will add it's phase flip to the Dannoy one. As Paul mentioned things are never ideal so there will be potentially a mess with 2 phase flips close to each other. 
Well, seems that RI is the way to go then. I can add some bass-capable speakers actually using the 8565. Just for completeness, close field response of my Dannoy (about 5cm from the speaker, mid point between the Tannoy and the PR).
Mean field R middle.jpg



Nice Dannoy variation thanks. But isn't one 10" PR too little? I think the rule was at least the cone area of the active driver to limit the excursion. Have you thought of adding 2 scanspeaks?



Cheers,
Jarek
Page 17 of 17 (338 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 13 14 15 16 17
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  708060  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  40722  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  14590  11-09-2021
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