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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  708062  07-29-2007
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06-20-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 301
Post ID: 27423
Reply to: 27422
Measurements vs Acoustic/Audio Preferences
Jarek, I've got to hand it to you, you're not a quitter! Of course the only way you'll know how you like it is to hear it, which is why manufacturing capabilities are so important, so we won't die of old age before we find something we like! You are very correct about vintage 10" cones vs. LF; they don't do it. Vintage 15" will get you down to 50, maybe 40 Hz. What you get from "room gain", and how that sound appeals to you is something you will have to decide for yourself. I hope you will contine these posts, however; I like your dogged processing. Just as a point of reference, have you ever tried the larger vintage Tannoys in your room? 1 box apiece...

Best regards,
Paul S
06-23-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 302
Post ID: 27424
Reply to: 27423
Magic bass
Thank you Paul. The thing is, once you hear that bass, you want more of it. Actually my appetite is even higher now. I've upgraded the XO caps to a higher grade (ClarityCap ESA -> MR + Milflex ) and this decreased subjectively the bass quantity at the same time making it a bit more accurate. I have not tried bigger Tannoys. They are not easily available here and paying the eBay prices just to try is not what I'd like to do. Besides they need very large cabinetswhich won't fit here.


Cheers,
Jarek
06-23-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 303
Post ID: 27425
Reply to: 27424
The SET Problem, only with speakers...
Sounds like the problem I always had with SET, I really loved the "bass" I got, but there just wasn't enough of it to "scale up" when I wanted to. I think I have told at GSC before that the founder of Stereophile, Gordon Holt wound up with Tannoys, pretty sure i remember they were DMTs. Not large boxes, but decidedly better "punch" and LF than older iterations (also less $$$...). FWIW, JGH did pro recording until he died, was very picky about tone, and all his systems had to play back his own recordings correctly. Interestingly, he also wound up with his own version of "surround sound".

Best regards,
Paul S
03-16-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 304
Post ID: 28032
Reply to: 27343
REL Experience
With little time I have now, I tried Rel T9x woofer with Dannoys to see if I get anything I want. Not. I tried one T9x, summing both channels, positioned centrally between the Dannoys and fed from the B2 outputs. It produced a typical hifi on/off bass or rather sound. It was disconnected from the beautiful, musical bass of Dannoy's, adding some caricatural seismic rumblings. No increased space information, no LF "breathing", no reinforcement of the Grundton. Playing with the crossover point and the sub level did not change that. I think Romy observed something similar but with much more noble LF channel - disconnection from the Dannoys. The big question is: Is it the quality of Rel or a general Dannoy problem like Romy suggested? Does it make sense to try making own Scanspeak bass modules?

Cheers,
Jarek
03-16-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 305
Post ID: 28033
Reply to: 28032
LF to Augment Dunnoys?
Jarek, I remember years ago that then REL was "thought to be a good match" with "good-sounding " speakers. You already know it is more than partly a matter of room loading, but sure, you want some blending at the X/O point. Why not try a larger "vintage woofer, like a 15" Tesla, if you have access? Less movement of the woofer is better, I think, given you can load your space properly at all.

Best regards,
Paul S
03-16-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 306
Post ID: 28034
Reply to: 28033
I don't know
it was quite awful. I picked rel based on their "reputation". Never heard of Tesla apart from the swasticars.

Cheers,
Jarek
03-16-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 307
Post ID: 28035
Reply to: 28034
Vintage For Vintage (and no nazis...)
Early REL subs were quite different. Current REL subs appear to be smaller, "long throw" type, which seems always to be a bad idea for sound. Tesla ARO (or similar) woofers were made in CZ, long ago. Like I said in another post, ask Google for Tesla and you will get 200 pages of von Musk's Douchemobiles.

Paul S
03-16-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 308
Post ID: 28036
Reply to: 28032
The Scanspeak bass modules
 N-set wrote:
With little time I have now, I tried Rel T9x woofer with Dannoys to see if I get anything I want. Not. I tried one T9x, summing both channels, positioned centrally between the Dannoys and fed from the B2 outputs. It produced a typical hifi on/off bass or rather sound. It was disconnected from the beautiful, musical bass of Dannoy's, adding some caricatural seismic rumblings. No increased space information, no LF "breathing", no reinforcement of the Grundton. Playing with the crossover point and the sub level did not change that. I think Romy observed something similar but with much more noble LF channel - disconnection from the Dannoys. The big question is: Is it the quality of Rel or a general Dannoy problem like Romy suggested? Does it make sense to try making own Scanspeak bass modules?
I need to admit that I am if huge fan of Scanspeak bads modules. However, since I was introduced to ampX 6 months ago I discovered completely new definition of base, and I did not listen it with the Scanspeaks. I would be very interesting to try but it is not currently in my plans as my corner horns along with my infinite baffle do all the time I need from Bass. 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-17-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 309
Post ID: 28037
Reply to: 28035
Rabbit Holes
Jarek, not to send you down another rabbit hole, but just a nod:

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/onken-with-tesla-aro-942.259378/

These woofers are coveted by "Klangfilm" crowd in both CZ and DE, also Balkans. "Factory" LF boxes were big, double walled, with vents that I believe were +/- "un-tuned", the idea being to cancel acoustic short and approach IB situation. I experimented with smaller boxes with random vents, some with a rock wool "curtain" in the box, hanging behind the driver. 

Good Luck,
Paul S
03-17-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 310
Post ID: 28038
Reply to: 28037
The proof of the pudding
Thanks Paul, but it's much easier for me to order Scanspeaks 25W-8565-00 than chase that Tesla, which I've just done. I'll try two modules with 2 drivers each.


Cheers,
Jarek
03-17-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 311
Post ID: 28039
Reply to: 28038
88 dB Pudding
Again, Good Luck.

Paul S
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 312
Post ID: 28042
Reply to: 27343
It's not the path i'd go...
If you want more bass, add it with reverb injection. You can have all the bass you want and you will not disturb Dannoy's beauty.
I'm curious, have you ever integrated ULF to a system with a sealed bottom end and one with a ported bottom end and noticed a difference in the two?

Attempting to use high order filters in a system with Dannoy seems crazy to me. There are reasons Dannoy sounds attractive and one of those is the simplicity of the filtering.

Another is how the scanspeak driver dampens the Tannoy. Remember the scanspeak has shorting rings in its motor so it serves to hold the flux (and therfore the cone in this case) in place so its not just the mass of the moving assembly dampening thee Tannoy.

Regarding needing bigger boxes for 15s, no you don't. My 15s went straight into the boxes that i was using for my Scanspeaks. What I mean is I had a pair of boxes about the recommended size with the scanspeeaks in them running active under Tannoy 10's. The scan speak was in the top of the box so wheen I wanted to try Dannoy for myself, I cut a hole for the Tannoy drivers straight in the bottom. First the 10 and then the 15. Box is ludicrously small. Again, this is one of the biggest plus, get big Tannoy sound in a tiny box
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,736
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 313
Post ID: 28043
Reply to: 28042
You Don't Know What You've Got
'Til it's gone...

Agree with Edgar that if you want to keep what you like most from the Dunnoys, you will take care not to spoil the sonic environment with "mere LF". Odd that Romy could not figure out how to do this with Remedios, and interesting that Ed says he has figured it out, although Romy has said many times, in the context of his corner horns, that his version of LF injection preserves the main channel sound and messages. Hmmm...

Paul S
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 314
Post ID: 28044
Reply to: 28042
Di you try that?
Edgar, did you try augmenting Dannoys with ScanSpeaks? I don't know where did you get high order filters and ported enclousers from but it's not on my list. I do not plan to crossover Dannoys but run them in parallel with ULF. The reverb idea is very nice indeed and this is the next on my list - I can alwaysconvert scanspeka boxes to auxilary speakers.

Cheers,
Jarek
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 315
Post ID: 28047
Reply to: 28032
Just be careful.
N-set, I very much sympathize with what you do but be advised on a few things. You are posting all of it in the “Remedies the Beauty” thread. The whole project Remedies the Beauty ended up with my catastrophic fiasco, and I do not want the negative spell of it to impact what you do. :-) To be a bit more serious, I do understand the addiction that you have with Dannoy. It is a very cute solution. In my case, it was spectacular as a prototype, but when I was trying to complete it as a final solution, I monumentally failed. I truly hope that your result will be different. Get yourself this CD:

https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Jimmy-Scott/dp/B000002N6C

It will be stanning good on Dannoys...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Warsaw, Poland
Posts 626
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 316
Post ID: 28048
Reply to: 28047
I'm having fun
I'm listening near field (2m away) in a small, odd shaped space and they do give fun. The sound is somewhat compressed, lives between the speakers not spreading but on my list is to try to address it: bass modules, supertweeters (anyone selling Tannoy ST25 or 50?), reverb channel. I understand you did not try your scanspeak bass modules with Dannoys instead trying the big daddy AK151 and crossing the Dannoys. I want to try the bass modules in parallel, not touching the Dannoy xcover. Edgar's idea with the reverb channel to augment the bass is also very nice. Thanks for the recommendation, a big part of my baroque collection sounds very good to spectacular, depending on the recording. The fun is now to make big orchestras sound grand Smile

Cheers,
Jarek
03-18-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 317
Post ID: 28050
Reply to: 28048
Its not gonna happen
I don't mean to be pessimistic but i know where this ends. It ends the same place Romy did, in a lot of work and no result.

I am trying to lead you to water here but as the sayin' goes....

I bring up the difference in implementing bass under a channel that is sealed vs a channel that is ported because if you have tried, you will know that it is IMPOSSIBLE to implement bass MUSICALLY under a port. Dannoys passive radiator acts like a port as it is out of phase at its lower knee. it doesn't matter what topology you try re ULF, its gonna light up the passive radiator and consequently drive the Tannoy out of phase and turn it all to mud.
Regarding any system, not just Dannoy, adding any ULF channel, in a finite sized room, is going to drive energy into you main channels. the bass drivers of your main system will couple and resonate together with the ULF which will drive energy back into the output transformers. Remember loudspeakers are microphones as well. 
I know some readers will be rolling there eyes and thinking dampening factor big deal but it is more than that. Injection is not just injecting sound pressure into your room, your also injecting electrical energy into your output transformers and that oscillating current loop (loudspeaker coil and secondary of OPT).

This is how you can very effectively alter how your system (any system)  builds dynamics from the lowest hz all the way up. This is a BIG topic But i realise i am now off topic as we are on injection now and not Dannoy. But, before i return to the topic i will say the way one uses ULF and the quality of the ULF affects the injection into your output transformer and how it  restructures or destructures the harmonics so musicality is still required and I have never heard a musical filter any sharper than 12db/oct.
I hope this explanation helps you to see how complex the scenario of adding ULF is and why keeping things very very simple is the key to exceptional results.

If you knew what you were missing with reverb injection, i'd have to think it would be on the top your list of upgrades . But, i'll say this as a disclaimer, I am super, super sensitive to phase so I like it. Maybe other who are not so anal about phase don't care for it. It honestly baffles me, peoples indifference to RI. Is it lack of understanding, or just no one is trying it...? Anyhow,  im not only off topic but also rhetorical lol.

Lastly regarding compression, at the moment i am driving my Dannoy 15s with push pull DA42 so a lot of power and it throws huge chromatic vectored transients everywhere. delightfully intoxicating and the louder the better but yeah, even though they can handle being driven ridiculously hard, they are just a pair of 15s at the end of the day. Remedies is beautiful but she is not everything.
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 318
Post ID: 28053
Reply to: 28050
I hate to agree with you.
Edgar, I absolutely with you on it. I am not sure that I buy completely the notion of LF driver acting as microphone as the PRIMARY reason of the problem. In my view Dunnoy configuration is a strange unicorn, and it is truly perfect in a very small room and with very limited range of expectations. It has some strange magic, which in my view does not have explanation. It is ridiculously addictive. In my case when I experimented with it I was driving it with VFET amplification and it would be very interesting if I drive it today with AmpX, which is orders of magnitudes better in bass. However, I do not do it because I feel that there is no practical reason to conduct this type of experiment. Even if I get significantly better result then the application of this result will be limited within a limited range of expectations. I am not accidentally suggested to buy that type of CD for Dennoy, as this level of musical complexity is maximum that Dannoy can handle. This is of course strictly my view. It is very possible that somebody might take this idea further at discover somerhing that I did not see. In my case, it was dead end. I still remember that week when I discovered the Dannoy effect. It was so powerful that I literally was staying in disbelief in the middle of my listening room and in few hours all my horns and all my DSET amplification we're sitting in the storage. Ask the chronology of this thread reflects it lead to nothing. I hope somebody would do more successful then me and I will be only applauding their efforts.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 40
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 319
Post ID: 28054
Reply to: 28053
Not the primary reason no
I add that only to highlight there is more to it than just the sound  pressure, adding ULF will impact your system electrically as well but yes, in a far more subtle way.
The primary difficulty i see is the phase flip at the bottom. There is just mo way around it.
The only way sensibly i can see to potentially get more Dannoy headroom is to use more drivers. the same configuration just multiples stacked and possibly adding mass to some of the units to lower F3.
And then a whole bunch of time adjusting xovers... urgh, no thanks
But, I also have no disire yo push any further forward. Im very happy with the many exceptional qualities Remedies has as well as her shortcomings. She makes a killer studio monitor in a tiny package with exceptional extension for the tiny enclosure. 
There are other beauties to pursue with different qualities and different shortcomings.
03-19-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,308
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 320
Post ID: 28055
Reply to: 28054
Different qualities and different shortcomings...
You used the 15” red with my 10” driver, right? It would be interesting to try then to find a 15” driver similar to 10" canSpeak, I wonder if they do something in 15”, they do have the same in 8” and have those divers. I am not familiar with passive radiators and I presume they are all crap, That 10” ScanSpeak is a unicorn, in my view. Since it is a full driver, there is another tool for tuning it. Load the VC of that ScanSpeak passive radiator to a variable resistor and try to impact its resonance. I do not think that it is needed but would do a good toy. If I stay with Dannoy configuration I would probably try to have a passive radiator with true leather suspension. This is a dangerous territory as only God knows how it will impact the overall result. The magic on Dannoy was that this combination of THAT ScanSpeak driver and Reds clicked very nicely, and pulled out of the Reds many problems they had. I still do not know why the ScanSpeak damping of LF cone smooths out the Red's ugly HF syrupy quality...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Page 16 of 17 (338 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 13 14 15 16 17 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  708062  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  40723  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  14590  11-09-2021
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