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12-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008
Post #: 1761
Post ID: 26028
Reply to: 2931
My experience with original PP2000
FWIW, I had one of the original PP2000 units (made in Taiwan back in those days?). It certainly changed the sound - it seemed to add some 'sparkle' somehow. But I had an interesting experience with it...
I wanted to hear how things sounded with/without the PP2000, so one day I disconnected the whole system from the PP2000 and plugged it directly into the mains. What I found was that it sounded pretty much the same! But only when the PP2000 was powered up. Switching the PP2000 off, the sound changed back to how it normally sounded. Switching the PP2000 on, and the sound changed to more 'sparkle'.
What I concluded was that the PP2000 was emitting some RFI that somehow interferred with the electronics in the system. I stopped using the PP2000 with my system after that and used it as a regular UPS with my work PC instead. When its batteries failed (a few years ago now), I dumped the PP2000 in the trash. I haven't missed it at all.
Mani.
12-08-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1762
Post ID: 26029
Reply to: 26027
SMPS
N-Set, I believe Romy posted scope traces of his PP output in this thread, many years ago. As I recall, it was a "pulsed sine wave". Nobody has said the PP is quiet; quite the opposite. As for battery power, I finally got to "A/B" a large, well thought out and implemented UPS, batteries vs. carefully dedicated mains. In this case, I preferred the mains, overall; more dynamic. This is a "big system", with truly gigantic amps and speakers, and I never had a problem with mains power there since the mains lines were dedicated to the system, including same-phasing and dedicated home runs for neutrals and grounds.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-14-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1763
Post ID: 26031
Reply to: 26028
PP and sparkle
Mani, I haven't done yet an honest A/B comparison PP vs wall, PP off, PP on, but what I hear I would not describe as a 'sparkle'. Unlike Romy's and others' experiences, at the beginning I had some HF harshness rather than HF shyness. No idea why, but all the system was disconnected/reconnected several times, maybe IC's needed time, maybe PS's, who knows. Anyway, after a couple of listening sessions the HF harshness (mostly tuner due to an interesting live concerts) disappeared, leaving a beautiful, "organic" sound with a fabulous bass. I'm not ready to describe the sound change yet as I'm burning in my AC extension, so not yet the final power connection.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
01-11-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1764
Post ID: 26032
Reply to: 26031
Update
A bit of the background. Before acquiring the PP, the whole system had been moved from it's previous location in Gdansk to a new one in Warsaw. New, busy city, new apartment, new electricity. Straight after the move and connected to the new house power, the sound was simply uninspiring, very much unlike in my previous location. I honestly did not want to listen much. This was the reason to get the PP. It did give very very good results with my tuner but had some grounding issues with the phono. After the long fight, documented above (thank you guys, thank you PP Richard for the help) this was eventually resolved and I have installed a dedicated power line and GND for the PP. Whether needed or not I honestly cannot tell as I did not do much listening with PP connected to the house power. But for a peace of mind I installed the line right before the Christmas (was actually a pretty quick job with a right electrician). Then came long weeks of burning in of the line. I connected a fridge, some lights and several time a washing machine (about 2kW peak). Not through PP of course, just directly. Recently I finally started listening. I've had so far only one long listening session so cannot comment much on the sound yet. But one is sure - the sound has changed from just correct and uninvolving to more resolved, dynamically contrasted and emotionally engaging. Most prominent change in the base and upper base, the latter being the most sensitive point. Was spinning one LP after another, finding a great pleasure in the sound, resembling what I had before the big move. I feel there is still some tweaking to be done - with the PP the arrangement of the AC cords seems more important to minimize the cart pickup and some more break in is also needed. But at this stage I'm very happy!


Below are the details of the current power connection (mostly for my records):
1) Dedicated power line:  6m of 5x6mm2 flat cable (AWG 9.5). The connections of the cable:

PP GND - Neutral - Line - Drain GND - System GND  (could be more optimal with PP GND and Line exchanged but let's not be picky)

Drain GND connected only on the power distribution side and left unconnected at the receptacle.
Dedicated fuse box, connected directly to the power entrance to the apartment: RCBO Siemens 5V3316-6, 63A type figuring it should have the most reliable contacts After it 16A, 10x38mm fuse on the line, Siemens 3NW7013 holder
2) PP connected to this line, with its ground at PP GND. System GND connected via a separate 10mm2 (AWG 7) stranded wire (around 3m) to its dedicated GND (System GND). PP GND, System GND and the Drain GND are connected only at the power entry to the apartment. There are 2 separate GND wires: For the phono and for the digital
PP and GND connections.jpg


From PP a 3m power cable 3x4mm2 (AWG 11) to a my old DIY power strip. Connection to PP via a Nema L6-15 twistlock connector. The cable carries the PP GND. All the components are lifted from the PP GND and connected only via the dedicated GND above. The AC cables have actually Paul's drain system: there is a GND strand, connected only at one end to the PP GND at the power strip, but disconnected at the component end. The AC cables are DIY solid core 2.5mm2 (AWG 13) in teflon braids with solid copper plugs (thanks Paul for that construction!).

An interesting observation: The 20kHz carrier freq of the PP dropped by some 8dB at the phono output going from a normal household stranded wire power strip to the 3x4mm2 solid core above. I recon this is the skin effect in action and the thick cable acts as a filter for the PP HF noise. Looking at the engineering data on cables, e.g. here https://fliphtml5.com/tbxwk/pnhi/basic there limiting frequencies quoted for the max skin depth. 11AWG has 3200Hz. If I find enough motivation, I will change the PP to system connection to 9.5AWG (6mm2) which has around 1kHz less (more than 9.5AWG will not fit my Nema plugs).

Thanks again everyone for the help: Vaclav from HifiStrore in Prague for delivering the PP, PP Richard for a great deal of support and help (I'm yet to try your AC cable), Romy and other contributors for your advise and help. Needless to say I began to buy LP's again Wink
 





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
01-13-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1765
Post ID: 26033
Reply to: 26032
Drain/Bleeder Ground
Good for you, Jarek! As for the very specialized (and not always needed...) "bleeder" ground, it has been my experience that it has worked best when it is a "stand alone" copper rod driven at some distance from the service ground. I run a 12 AWG magnet wire from the system, through the wall, to a rod driven near the house foundation, outside, over 60' from the house/UFER ground. I realize this is not always easy or even possible to do in certain cases, notably apartments; but this has been my experience. Of course it is possible to measure noise on the "house ground" with the system running, and in rare cases noise is low enough that it's a non-issue. In your case, it seems unlikely - intellectually -  that the house/system ground will be quiet with the PP installed and running; but if it is indeed quiet with the PP then you can consider yourself lucky.

Best regards,
Paul
01-14-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1766
Post ID: 26034
Reply to: 26033
GND scheme
Paul, what I mean by 'Drain GND' is your idea of a GND cable connected at one end only. I have no access to mother earth and cannot install a dedicated rod. To avoid confusion, below is my actual power line and GND scheme.
As for the noise, I think there are two types:
1. Obvious - one that can be heard when there is no music; mostly due to GND loops, inappropriate shielding etc
2. Hidden - one that manifests itself in a musical material via various colorations

In my setting there is none to very little obvious noise depending on the chosen source. An exception is the Decca cartridge which picks EMT strobo lamp and motor noise, but that disappears almost to zero when I ground the TT (I lifted it in the previous location before I got the Decca, but consider grounding again to the household GND). All that is verified with very efficient Stax headphones.

When it comes to the more malicious hidden noise, I have little to choose to experiment. My only possibilities are A) no GND, when I get more obvious noise due to the cart pickup or  B) connect to the apartment GND in various combinations. The one I use now is below, with the dedicated system GND and PP GND meeting the household GND only in the utility box, where GND enters the apartment. This is the best approximation I can make to completely separate grounds.

GND scheme.jpg
Edit: Just grounded the TT + its metal frame to the existing household GND (meets the dedicated grounds only at one common point at the apartment power entrance).  Removed some of the obvious noise from the Decca cart. The feeling is also slightly increased the clarity of the musical presentation. Enjoying a surprisingly good RCA/German Erato Vivaldi's Dixit Dominus under Corboz Smile


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-24-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 1767
Post ID: 26076
Reply to: 26034
An interesting observation
I needed to lift my PP1500 off the carpet as it had not enough air circulation. Somewhere in the PurePower materials I read that vibration isolation is advisable, so I decided to kill two birds with one stone. I've got a set of nice metal roller footers from a Polish manufacturer and a friend of mine as putting one of our big isolation platforms seemed like an overkill. I did not expect anything apart from a better cooling, but anyway I did a quick reference listen before the installation of the rollers and afterwards. Well quite to my surprise, there seemed to be some moderate-but-noticeable change in the sound: deeper and more articulate bass, better dynamical contrast like if some veil was removed. These are the typical effects of a proper vibration background  cleaning that I've heard hundreds of times. Unless I was  hallucinating, as the test was quick and I have zero interest in repeating it (unless with one of our big platforms but that later), PP indeed seem to benefit  from vibration isolation. the interesting twist is that the test was performed on headphones so the PP was not embedded in an acoustic sound field, just subject to structure borne and its own vibrations.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 1768
Post ID: 26105
Reply to: 23017
Neotech and Duelung cables.
Paul, o/


apparently you use Neotech cables (under another brand), I would like to ask you if you have experience with their rectangular cables and if they have a specific (interesting) sound?

Also, I just found out Duelung is selling oil impregnated wires/cables (copper and silver, including custom made) and apparently they are at the affordable/inexpensive side. Have you experience with oil impregnated cables? Since they can be custom made what kind of construction[1] (Litz etc.) is likely to work better?

What about the durability of the oil thing? Also, can these cables be properly insulated and shielded?


Thanks!

[1] I would probably consider something a long lines with AN UK Sootto LX as start point, btw.

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 1769
Post ID: 26106
Reply to: 26076
I've had it!
I have been a strong proponent of PurePower since Romy introduced me to their units maybe 10 years ago when I was a writer for www.enjoythemusic.com. My system has had their original 1500, two 2000+ and one 3000+ over the years, and still use two of them, I wrote several articles extolling their virtues, and I still feel that they produce one of, if not the best electricity improvement units for high end audio. Unhappily their service in no way matches their sound quality.     Two years ago, I sent in two of their 2000+ units to have them updated to the latest circuit boards and lithium batteries, and paid for the updates in advance. They were supposed to do the updates and ship them back promptly. Unhappily, it took about a year to get one of the units back with the second unit still not received. Part of the problem was my inability to be at my residence over the winter to receive them, with them probably using the time to sell my original unit to someone else, and then to replace it with another. My and their bad.      But, unhappily, over the past year, I've contacted them several times through email and phone calls asking for the return of my second unit, without success. I've finally decided it’s no longer worth the effort to retrieve the unit and am therefor writing this tome to warn you all of my misfortune and to steer clear of this company. It saddens me to have to do this as I have had the father and his wife over and they seem to be honest people who just have no business sense, have had some bad luck over the years which left their business hanging by a thread. But life is too short and the several thousand dollar loss not worth following up on.     So yes, they make a superb product which has given me many hours of pleasure. BUT their service sucks. So caveat emptor if you plan on dealing with their service.Bill
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1770
Post ID: 26107
Reply to: 26105
Commercial Cable Options
Alex, I "invented" and built my own power cables from scratch, using sleeved, solid, 12AWG Cu magnet wire, as I explained to Jarek, way up this thread. If buying pre-fab cables, I would first consider Speltz. As for "oiling" the wire, I don't know about this, although I did use a heat gun to melt bees wax into my homemade Litz-braided IC, and it did not cause any problems I have detected. I have done a lot of complaining here about poor connectors used for even the most expensive cables. I think I posted a link to a metals conductivity chart up this thread, as well. For example, Switchcraft connectors are not the worst, I suppose, but not the best, either, IMO. The main problem seems to be, no one can afford to make their own connectors, and the companies who can afford to make them care more about their own manufacturing processes than audiophile issues. Although "we" (hi-fi nuts) like to think someone is "making a killing" on high-end audio gear, this "market" barely blips on the "parts industry" radar. It's flat out hard (and so, hardly worth it) to get "good parts" to make good cable. As ever, the path of least resistance is to make something from what's available and use "the system" to hype it, sell what you can, then move on to something "better".


Best regards,
Paul S
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1771
Post ID: 26108
Reply to: 26106
Bill try local repair
I have their pre move production units from the Oughts which fortunately they do not support. When I had an issue with one going dead I took it down to my tech support firm and asked if they could figure it out. They fixed it with no problem. Apparently besides the batteries there were some wiring damage. They commented that the internal design and layout seemed poor to them increasing the odds of damage in that area. The batteries moving around even slightly does it. But in any event they did not find the overall device puzzling to test or fix. My understanding is that the newer units are slightly smaller and more crowded so they are possibly worse designed internally with respect to reliability. There was a poster years ago I think from NZ who made a similar observation about the newer units.
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 1772
Post ID: 26109
Reply to: 26108
Wish I could
Wish I could use local repair. Unhappily, in order to do that I would have to have the unit. They never returned it.
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1773
Post ID: 26110
Reply to: 26109
Toilets in Dining Rooms
Bill, if anyone did more for these people than Romy, it has to be you, which makes this not only unconscionable but simply bad business, on the face of it. Perhaps seeing these posts will shake a unit loose for you, and you might then send it to United Radio, in Syracuse, if you don't already have someone in mind.

Good luck!


Best regards,
Paul S
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 1774
Post ID: 26111
Reply to: 26107
"Industrial" connectors
 Paul S wrote:
Alex, I "invented" and built my own power cables from scratch, using sleeved, solid, 12AWG Cu magnet wire, as I explained to Jarek, way up this thread. If buying pre-fab cables, I would first consider Speltz. As for "oiling" the wire, I don't know about this, although I did use a heat gun to melt bees wax into my homemade Litz-braided IC, and it did not cause any problems I have detected. I have done a lot of complaining here about poor connectors used for even the most expensive cables. I think I posted a link to a metals conductivity chart up this thread, as well. For example, Switchcraft connectors are not the worst, I suppose, but not the best, either, IMO. The main problem seems to be, no one can afford to make their own connectors, and the companies who can afford to make them care more about their own manufacturing processes than audiophile issues. Although "we" (hi-fi nuts) like to think someone is "making a killing" on high-end audio gear, this "market" barely blips on the "parts industry" radar. It's flat out hard (and so, hardly worth it) to get "good parts" to make good cable. As ever, the path of least resistance is to make something from what's available and use "the system" to hype it, sell what you can, then move on to something "better".


Best regards,
Paul S


I will dig a bit on the oiled cables we the opportunity arise. In regards to connectors I would probably be more interested on "industrial" stuff like 'Amphenol Audio' or Neutrik.

Thanks!

Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
04-20-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1775
Post ID: 26112
Reply to: 26109
Bill I understand but
you are going to have an issue with the unit you still have eventually. Also I want to alert others and prevent them from sending anything back to the Canada sinkhole. My guess is that almost anything that is likely to go wrong can be fixed fairly easily by local tech repair.
PS it's not worth it to get whatever "updated" changes they make. Given their lack of QC it's just one more thing to go wrong. Don't worry be happy and don't expect them to fix anything
04-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 1776
Post ID: 26121
Reply to: 26107
Cables...
Paul,

I've see the post you referenced today, and I am still thinking about cable construction:

UP-OCC Copper or Silver Wire[1,2,3] -> Wax (or Oil) -> Cotton Sleeve -> Aluminum or Copper Foil -> Teflon Sleeve

I think the objective of each component is known[4], and the proper construction should be problematic for DIY (no professional tooling) to get everything tight.


What you think about it, too much or could it bring something undesirable?


[1] Ultra-Pure Ohno Continuous Casting.
[2] the specific design is another story.
[3] enameled?
[4] the Teflon is more about holding everything together.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
04-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1777
Post ID: 26122
Reply to: 26121
DIY Misery
Alex, I have never made anything hi-fi for fun, but only if I thought I could do as well or better than anything suitable that I could find and also afford. I think I've detailed constructions I've used in the Cable thread, which is where this stuff should go, apart from power cords.

Best regards,
Paul S
04-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1778
Post ID: 26123
Reply to: 26122
Th reason for DIY
I'm with Paul on this one. If the product exists for a reasonable price, I have no problem with buying it. I only resort to DIY when the product that I want doesn't exist (or it's too expensive). Frankly DIY takes a lot of time, and there's plenty of better things to do with that time if an existing product will do the job.
:-)
Adrian
04-26-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 1779
Post ID: 26124
Reply to: 26122
Not for fun.
Paul, Adrian,

there are cables with cotton/silk insulation (with and without oil/wax). Shielded cables with PVC/plastic insulation etc. and they all sound different.

I have not tested the cotton/silk insulated cables but everything point they bring a more "natural" representation but I don't like the idea of lack of shielding, and unless a cable like that appear I will never know...


Thanks!


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-21-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Amir
Iran Tehran
Posts 347
Joined on 02-11-2009
Post #: 1780
Post ID: 26317
Reply to: 26124
Improving Sound Quality of Pure Power+ 3000 (230v)
It seems the pure power 3000 diagram is like below :
18799C6E-E3AD-4078-9295-6CD2CC4ED0A0.jpeg

The battery voltage in new pure power+3000 is 72v (6x12v in 230v version) and the battery voltage convert to 330v by a switching dc to dc converter if i am not mistaken.What is your idea if we remove this dc-dc converter and use 330v high capacity battery bank (28x12v) plus capacitors (for less ripple) in parallel .


www.amiraudio.com, www.hifi.ir
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175315  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112428  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  925063  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264953  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108313  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163632  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230740  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  79021  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43211  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  84013  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29367  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16695  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9950921  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154770  10-24-2010
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