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  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  613464  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  585034  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  518376  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  119485  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  36917  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  JA Michell Hydraulic Reference...  Analog Playback Forum     15  120226  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  37857  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  67857  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  157773  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  18725  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  16758  10-27-2010
05-14-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 201
Post ID: 25423
Reply to: 25422
About the price.
In the audiophile market the advertised price is usually far from the street price (usually 20% off of it), and the price the retailer pay to the manufacture is often the street price with 40% off. So, one probably could buy that turntable for less than 240.000€ if he/she buy that FOB directly from TechDAS (shipping costs by sea would be negligible); however that is a Japanese product and they often are advertised for a fraction of the price in Japan in relation to the Western, and so I would not be surprised if someone managed to get that by 50K€ or less. ;-)

Btw, this German guy seems to also be following the Seiko style:



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 202
Post ID: 25428
Reply to: 25422
Curing the audio itch....
 Stitch wrote:
Is there a definition of "sound like shit"?
Stitch, this is VERY good question. I think the answer in the eye of beholder. I know two guys who own or use to own TechDas 1. One did not like it and he before it use to have some smaller Micr, I think it was RX2000, I have no idea what he did with it. Another also very aggressively did not like it. He owed any TT you ever heard of and he is one of the few guys who do not mind to call “crap” the things that he have paid a lot of money. It is possible however that "sound like shit" was my own colloquialism and they did not tell me like that. I do recall a very negative feedback and in my mind if a TT (or any other audio devise) cost as much and being sold as some kind of messianic item then any negative aspect of the devise performance putting the devise into  "sound like shit" category. If you hire a wall painter who do not charge $15 but let say $1250 per hour and the painter does not know how to let say edge walls then do you need more talking about the qualification of that painter? If the painter bills you $30 or $50 per hour then you could debate if he is good or bad painter, but as the painter’s bill you $1250 per hour then all bets are off, for this extraordinary money the professional should be able to delivery extraordinary performance. The top of the line TechDas turntable based upon the feedback I got did not deliver not only extraordinary performance but filed in comprising with much less ambition TTs (again, reportedly). Does it make it to sound “like shit”? I do not know. 
     
Honestly I got kind of tired to debunk stupid ideas in audio. The whole notion of high-end audio implied high quality of performance and it has nothing to do with technologies, prices and the rest of the crap that we all look like love to worship in audio. Would a TT that “sounds like shit” deserve to have attention by the people who practice high-end audio objectives? Does the sexy look and high price to qualify the TechDas One to be high-end audio turntable? You answer this question to yourself.   
 
We have in audio absolutely wrong way to communicate with our inner ourselves, the stupid audio media have vandalized it in us. We do not communicate our need but we instead communicate your remedies for discomfort and frustrations. I do not understand why TT are being produced by audio companies. Any person can go to eBay and buy for $2K-$3K a 40 years old Micro 5000 that will deliver a superb performance that will last to the rest of a listener’s life. Why turntables are being made after the RX5000 was made? Why some kind of company take the RX5000, mass-produce it, driving the cost to sub $500, and close the audio people itch with turntables to the rest of humanity existence….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-18-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 203
Post ID: 25430
Reply to: 25428
Engineering Solutions
The way the "spec sheets" on high end items read tell something about the approach taken by the "manufacturer". Often they approach designing something difficult, like a turntable, as a series of obstacles to be overcome, so the project winds up first breaking the thing down into bits, then coming up with "solutions" for each bit (such as "friction", concentricity, etc., etc.), then assembling the TT from the "perfected" bits. This done, how could it not sound good?  Of course, there are other approaches, such as association with race car drivers, astronauts, astro-physicists, etc., or perhaps just "keeping up a front" of "upscale exclusivity", a la the Trump Resorts.


Paul S
05-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 204
Post ID: 25432
Reply to: 25430
Compare to automobile industry
We generally accept that Mercedes Benz builds good cars. Several years ago, they invented the A class series and the German press was all excited - until a scandinavian review performed an “elk test”, a fast series of turns and braking to keep from hitting the animal. The Mercedes flipped over - so much for good handling. What did Mercedes do? They did not fix the suspension, rather they added ABS.
The moral of the story was not building cars that were innately safe, rather building electronic systems to compensate for bad mechanical engineering. This is not a new concept. Photoshop helps get usable pictures from shitty photographs, our airplanes are fly by wire with electronics to smooth out pre calculated pilot errors, we have laws against abortion but let rich white kids get off with rape.
Turntables are actually not that hard. We used to have decent ones for a couple of hundred dollars. Gear fetish is destroying the honest attempts. The hard part is the tone arm and cartridge but good engineering could solve this.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
05-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 205
Post ID: 25434
Reply to: 25432
Tolerable Tolerances
The thing with building turntables is, if you use a stethoscope and your ears, there is some "serious" machining involved that requires not only expensive, complicated machine tools, but people who know how to use them. Generally, this stuff is not handled directly by the "manufacturer"/developer of the TT, and the costs tend to mount as something like a "serious" TT is developed.  I think what we are looking at with TechDas (and most others) is more usual for a "high end" product, where the "designers" might be at least as interested in marketing, so they are at least as concerned with "marketable" "features" as actual sonic performance.  Another approach might be the "constant development" TT that "keeps changing for the better".  I keep looking back to Brinkmann, who is himself a machinist. Not that this is any guaranty of good sound, but it does seem like it is a "more likely scenario". Whatever the initial approach, "tangential" ideas tend to overwhelm "basic sensibilities", running up costs and prices without really adding anything really worthwhile to quality of sound reproduction


Paul S
05-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 206
Post ID: 25436
Reply to: 25434
Machining is no big deal anymore
Actually, if we use a stethoscope and our ears, we buy standard precision bearings, motors and control electronics. All quite affordable. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. If we look at an old Thorens TD160, how much more engineering does the average audiophile need? Well the TD1600 looks like it will be $3000. When do we reach the point that the original pressing has worse wow, flutter and noise floor? I think that the crapshoot is the tone arm because it has to work with a resonant cartridge that may even be weather and temperature dependent. How much new engineering have we seen? I can’t think of any related to turntables.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
05-19-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 207
Post ID: 25437
Reply to: 25436
Parts vs. Application vs. Incentive
No, machining still requires expensive machinery and some chops, and further it needs to be a coherent part of a pre-engineered whole. It really isn't like one can find the parts on shelves, assemble them, and wind up with something sonically viable, let alone do it for pocket change. The TD160 is a long way from the worst bearing, but the platter is something else, like my old Rek-O-Kut.  And sure, the arm is important, too, also something that one does not make in the garage.  Not like these problems can't be solved, rather there's not financial incentive to do it, mostly due to lack of demand for good sounding stuff in the first place. I mean, why bother?

Paul S


 
09-20-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 208
Post ID: 25600
Reply to: 6783
Micro Seiki SX-8000
There is a pristine looking Micro Seiki SX-8000 on Yahoo Japan Auctions.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 209
Post ID: 25601
Reply to: 25409
TechDAS & Micro Seiki relation.
I read THIS short interview with Hideaki Niskikawa, the person behind TechDAS, and I learned he was the Micro Seiki chief designer, and was the responsible at least by the design of the SX-8000 II (cited in the interview).

This fact don't tell how TechDAS turntables sound (I never heard and I don't think I have any one remotely close to hear), but may be a good indication of the objectives behind the development, or at least part of them.


PS. apparently none of the TechDAS turntables do 78RPM, nor seems to have it as optional. Not nice.

Cheers.
Alex.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 210
Post ID: 25602
Reply to: 25601
VYGER Turntables.
I think I finally found a turntable I am interested to make an extra effort to hear, VYGER.

I, of course, have no idea of how it sound and I can't really say why I am interested on that particular turntable. This may be the apparent rugged no BS way that is built (or the lack of general interest among audiophiles).

There are some REVIEW, an INTERVIEW, and some youtube videos.


Cheers.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
09-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 211
Post ID: 25603
Reply to: 25601
Who would be the Micro Seiki chief accountant?
 xandcg wrote:
I read THIS short interview with Hideaki Niskikawa, the person behind TechDAS, and I learned he was the Micro Seiki chief designer, and was the responsible at least by the design of the SX-8000 II (cited in the interview).
Wonderful,  Mr. Hideaki Niskikawa would be the third person I know who would be calming that he was the Micro Seiki chief designer. I also wonder if Mr. Hideaki Niskikawa would assume any responsibility for what Micro Seiki did as they took my $14K back in 2000 before they went to dark.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-21-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 212
Post ID: 25604
Reply to: 25603
The inscrutable Orient
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 xandcg wrote:
I read THIS short interview with Hideaki Niskikawa, the person behind TechDAS, and I learned he was the Micro Seiki chief designer, and was the responsible at least by the design of the SX-8000 II (cited in the interview).
Wonderful,  Mr. Hideaki Niskikawa would be the third person I know who would be calming that he was the Micro Seiki chief designer. I also wonder if Mr. Hideaki Niskikawa would assume any responsibility for what Micro Seiki did as they took my $14K back in 2000 before they went to dark.

At the very least they should give you 14k plus interest discount off their wonderful new TT before it disappears.
09-22-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 213
Post ID: 25605
Reply to: 25603
Worth the shot.
I didn't know about this sad episode, but in your place I would find a way to ask him publicly about that[1]. He, of course, has no liability (by law) of what Micro Seiki (as a company) did, but would be interesting to know his reaction. Surely, he would not want the TechDAS image affected by this episode.

[1] during a Air Force Zero presentation would even better.



Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
04-07-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009
Post #: 214
Post ID: 25826
Reply to: 25605
Gyroscopes
Not that physics is my strong suit, but casually watching a physics youtube video this thought crossed my mind.
I wonder if gyroscopes can be used in a turntable to improve it's performance without reverting to ultra high mass systems to maintain a good level of stability?
Take the platter for example: If the mass of the platter is concentrated at the perimeter, it will act as a gyroscope while spinning --- this is obvious. What's not obvious to me is what that min velocity is for a given mass platter (that is built like a gyroscope, with most of it's mass at the perimeter) to reach precession. Is this achievable at only 33 or 45 rpm?
Could this be why 45rpm records sound better?

Well, the platter can act as a gyroscope in itself, without any additional contraptions! Is it only a function of the perimeter mass?
However, with external gyros, maybe it would make sense to stabilize the plinth? The tonearm?

I am not claiming any new discoveries, but wondering if this fundamental law of physics can be applied more intentionally to improve the mechanical device "the turntable" to achieve better performance without the need to build the high mass monsters that I have seen. 
04-07-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 215
Post ID: 25827
Reply to: 25826
How good does it need to be?
 noviygera wrote:
Not that physics is my strong suit, but casually watching a physics youtube video this thought crossed my mind.
I wonder if gyroscopes can be used in a turntable to improve it's performance without reverting to ultra high mass systems to maintain a good level of stability?
Take the platter for example: If the mass of the platter is concentrated at the perimeter, it will act as a gyroscope while spinning --- this is obvious. What's not obvious to me is what that min velocity is for a given mass platter (that is built like a gyroscope, with most of it's mass at the perimeter) to reach precession. Is this achievable at only 33 or 45 rpm?
Could this be why 45rpm records sound better?

Well, the platter can act as a gyroscope in itself, without any additional contraptions! Is it only a function of the perimeter mass?
However, with external gyros, maybe it would make sense to stabilize the plinth? The tonearm?

I am not claiming any new discoveries, but wondering if this fundamental law of physics can be applied more intentionally to improve the mechanical device "the turntable" to achieve better performance without the need to build the high mass monsters that I have seen. 


Considering that the master recording probably has more "error" than modern quality playback, what does "better" performance mean? We have rotational stability and low/tailored noise floor as far as the turntable goes. With the tonearm we have a resonant system with little "engineered" ability to manipulate the resonance. We need clay, silicone caulking with lead shot to "improve" assuming that we have ears and a brain.
For sure pitch control is one of my major needs. It is amazing how many recordings are not at the originally recorded pitch (yes, we know how many of the top orchestras tuned throughout recent and not so recent history).

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-10-2020 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 216
Post ID: 25991
Reply to: 25827
SAT XD1
December Stereophile just got here, featuring MF review/promo of the new SAT XD1 DD TT. Setting aside the cost and the hyperbole, it actually seems to be something that could get the job done. A few years ago I was still waiting to hear a convincing DD TT, but then I heard the Brinkmann DDs, and no timing issues here, which means that it can be done. Of course, there's more to it than that, but at least this design does not overtly sport elements that raise my hackles. Back to the price, they've got their nerve, anyway. I mean, one person can lift this! $/#, this sucker sets the bar, alright!

Paul S
01-04-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 217
Post ID: 26665
Reply to: 25991
Nagra Turntable.
Well, Nagra is also in the turntable business now.

https://www.nagraaudio.com/product/nagra-reference-anniversary-turntable/


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
03-07-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
DHT4ME
Las Vegas NV
Posts 18
Joined on 08-27-2008
Post #: 218
Post ID: 26722
Reply to: 40
Bearing design
I built my "Ultimate Turntable" and did the long bearing approach. It is 8" long and .750" diameter. I have had a love hate relationship with the long bearing. While it is VERY stable it is extremely difficult to setup. The long length absolutely minimizes wobble however unless the bearing is perfectly vertical it has more drag then a shorter bearing with more inherent "clearance". The heavy platter is like a spinning top and as soon as it is not level it creates a lot of side force.  I can see why the inverted bearings are so popular as the fulcrum effect and gravity neutralizes a lot of out of plumb alignments. My platter is a combination of aluminum, lead and glass filled epoxy with an 18lb weight. It also has magnetic levitation to minimize thrust noise.  To get this length inverted bearing you need to do something like the big Triangle Art table which my local friend here in Las Vegas has and it winds up being absolutely mammoth to implement.

Robert

www.Robert-Park.com
03-07-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 219
Post ID: 26724
Reply to: 26722
Learning Curve vs. Lifetime vs. Budget
Sure, we talk about "long bearings" around here, but in the end few of us get as far as you have, if only because this one issue is just one issue, after all, and few have the time, money, and persistence to throw at compiling everything it takes to actually build up and integrate a useable "one off" TT that is actually, honestly better in use, not to mention less expensive than what a careful, patient shopper might find on the 2nd hand market. And those giant, overwrought TTs have problems of their own. God Bless (and help...) all of us who get neck deep in DIY. And the hell with DIY for it's own sake...

Best regards,
Paul S
07-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 220
Post ID: 26839
Reply to: 26724
Interesting.
Interesting device: Accurion Workstation_Vario.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
Page 11 of 12 (221 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 8 9 10 11 12 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  613464  01-21-2006
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  585034  01-30-2006
  »  New   A longer turntable belt...  SP10 and the Japanese contribution to audio...  Analog Playback Forum     60  518376  02-02-2006
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  119485  04-04-2006
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  36917  06-10-2008
  »  New  Dynamic viscose stabilization of turntable’s platter...  JA Michell Hydraulic Reference...  Analog Playback Forum     15  120226  11-26-2008
  »  New  Active Tonearm Monitoring System...  The most idiotic idea I’ve ever seen...  Analog Playback Forum     2  37857  07-14-2009
  »  New  The HoroMusic turnable...  And the 27" long tonearm might be a Moronic as thi...  Analog Playback Forum     6  67857  08-05-2009
  »  New  Audio Note new turntable and inflation..  Audio Note Ginga Turntable...  Analog Playback Forum     14  157773  01-03-2010
  »  New  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?..  How much does it cost to stabilize a turntable speed?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  18725  03-13-2010
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  16758  10-27-2010
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