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   Home » Analog Playback» Sensible record cleaning: vinyl piranhas and record Vaseline (57 posts, 3 pages)
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  »  New  Stop buying the records cleaning fluid?..  I think it is all about oil....  Analog Playback Forum     3  31195  09-28-2008
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  613198  01-21-2006
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009
Post #: 41
Post ID: 20207
Reply to: 20206
Alcohol
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, it depends on the concentration of alcohol of course, also some records are softer than others (mainly reissues)....I used some time LADS from Germany, it is without alcohol, at the moment I have AIVS enzyme cleaning but overall my favorite is a German fluid, Hannl VI 3C. It is made professionally, 1 Fluid and it does work very well.

Kind Regards
Stitch
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 42
Post ID: 20208
Reply to: 20202
How not to clean records
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think I have different priories in records cleaning. I do appreciate better design idea and better quality of records cleaning but I do not really like records cleaning as a process. It is not that I do not find it beneficial for sound – of cause I do – but cleaning ceremony not way make me to enjoy to do it. You play nice music and pull another record. You see that it is dirty, so you load it in your cleaning machine. No matter what you do and what mashie it is it would be long, noisy, very unpleasant and you will have nothing to do while the record is cleaning. So, in my compromised world I would like the cleaning to be super fast, do both sided at once and take as less my time as possible. I would like do not hear that horrible sound of vacuum mashie but I guess it is what it is.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
mem916
San Diego, CA
Posts 52
Joined on 10-14-2011
Post #: 43
Post ID: 20209
Reply to: 20208
Record cleaning compromises
fiogf49gjkf0d

I've been living with the Audio Desk for almost 2 years now.  Nothing has broken (yet) on it.  I did replace the squeegees which seems to have mostly fixed the occasional issue I was having with water droplets left on the record after the dry cycle.

I don't clean records every time I play them but it is still a pain to pull out something that I have never cleaned and bagged that I want to listen to.  But since I was able to put the RCM in another room and it can do it's thing without me it's not too bad to listen to something else while I'm cleaning the new one.  I do wish there was an instant, quiet, perfect record player though.  Please get busy and invent one Romy!  Wink
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 44
Post ID: 20210
Reply to: 20209
Silent record cleaner and some further attitude.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, the silent record cleaner is a wet dream any person who spin records. I was thinking about it in past and was considering to put the vacuum mashie from my Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro to basemen and then run a pipe to the machine itself. It is not difficult to do and for sure it would make it the cleaning way quitter. Will it make the cleaning silent? I am not sure. Also, I do not think that it is practically necessary as cleaning in my view requires watching the record been cleaned not to mention that cleaning is restively short and there is no truly relaxing listening experience while another record is cleaning.

I think to have the record clearing experience completely decoupled from listening (and this what I would be very enthusiastic about) would be some kind of cleaning system where you will be able to load a batch of records, push the button and  let it run in completely automated mode, similar dishwasher for instance. It for sure would be way larger and way more expensive mashie and I doubt that someone would invest efforts to invent it not to mention to bring to market.

Do not forget that all of those record cleaner companies are small boutique sweatshop and this is why we see all of these record cleaners for $2K-$5K, wish is ridicules. The contemporary dishwashers or washers/drivers are order of magnitude more complex, functional and expensive but they cost $1.5K. I can only assure you that if we have large market for record cleaner machines and LG, Samsung, Miele Electrolux, Toshiba or Siemens would make them, under an umbrella or reasonable competition, then we would see way more technological savvy and better quality record cleaners machines with max price tag of $300. There is just no market for those things, so we only have basement made devises that are being sold to us with ostentatious attitude as it was some kind of mankind best accomplishment.

BTW, the Stitch’s comment above about the record cleaners with reusable fluid and consecutive filtration is an interesting subject. I never heard about it and I am not sure that it is such a horrible idea.  Of cause it does not sound right on specks but I do not see any reasons why it might not be acceptable.

Rgs, the caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-28-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 45
Post ID: 20215
Reply to: 20210
Noise and Thrift
fiogf49gjkf0d
Did I already mention up the thread that I've used a Nitty Gritty 2.5 machine since 1988?  Although I've had it open a couple of times for adjustments, yet I don't remember for sure but I think it has only one motor that performs two functions, the vacuum and the disc spinner.  The vacuum noise is a lot louder than the spinner, and it would be great to lower the noise level of the vacuum, by any means available. Perhaps NG might have used quieter components and/or designed it differently.  However, I see no practical way to remote the motor for the disc-spinner function.

As for conserving/re-using cleaning fluid: If, as public officials now insist, sewer waste water can be scrubbed and rendered fit for drinking, then it seems likely that disc washer fluid might be scrubbed enough for re-use, as well. But who knows how practical this might be, or what any cost/benefit numbers might look like.


Paul S
05-28-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009
Post #: 46
Post ID: 20904
Reply to: 20215
...... bssssssssssss ...... ultrasonic
fiogf49gjkf0d
Something new, probably a reliable unit (the Glaess Audio showed sometimes problems with their plastic parts, rollers, filters.....)

Klaudio Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Machine

Very comfortable, no plastic and important: You only need distilled water (cheap).


Klaudio.jpg



The unit at the right is $4k, the left one is in a dampening box which is really very low from noise. No idea about the price but interesting for those who have to place the unit in their listening room and don't want to be disturbed from noise.

Left side is the power switch, then the knob on the left is for the time you want to work with ultrasonic cleaning (off, 1min, 2min, 3min,4min, 5min), right side is the knob for drying time (off, 1min, 2min, 3min, 4min, 5min).
Put the record on top, there is a contact sensor and all will start/end automatically. Easy goin'....
In the middle is an adaptor for 7" singles.

Kind Regards
Stitch
06-01-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 47
Post ID: 20928
Reply to: 20904
Seen In Action
fiogf49gjkf0d
I saw the Klaudio at THE Show. It appears to be very well made, and it is quiet. The rep said it uses only water, and the ultrasound, of course. It looked like the air jets take quite a while to dry the disc, and I can't help but wonder if the vacuum cleaner might be a nice addition to this. I also saw a very cool indexer that sat atop a unit and fed it discs, each in turn, keeping track of everything. Just a prototype, but they are working on it.

Paul S
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 235
Joined on 01-15-2009
Post #: 48
Post ID: 20940
Reply to: 20928
KEITH MONKS "BreakTheMold"
fiogf49gjkf0d
I heard from a cleaning fluid which was created from Keith Monks long time ago. It is available via Keith Monks Dealers. Did not try it, it is too expensive for me but who knows, maybe there are some fanatic washers here who are ready for the experiment. I only heard from a guy who is an experienced vinyl washer that this fluid is good. It was hard for me to find a price, found it in England, 500ml for GBP 75.00. I guess shipping is extra :-)

KEITH MONKS discOveryTM BreakTheMold™


DeepClean Antifungal Pre-Wash Concentrate
Natural Precision Record Cleaning Fluid for vinyl and shellac records

- Concentrated antifungal pre-wash solution for especially soiled records
- Extra-strength antifungal and antibacterial action removes excessive mold (“mould”) and mildew from both vinyl and shellac records
- DeepClean action removes hardened deposits, residue from other cleaning fluids and hard water
- Also effective on other especially stubborn marks and stains
- 100% natural plant-based active ingredients blended with pure finest grade triple filtered distilled water
- Natural dye for easy identification (from super concentrate, leaves no residue)
- Tested and approved on both shellac and vinyl discs
- Delivers best-ever sound quality enhancement and noise reduction from a Keith Monks RCM.
- Pre-wash only: use before regular cleaning with Keith Monks discOvery33/45TM or discOvery78TM
- 500ml (around 100 LP sides*)




Kind Regards
Stitch
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 49
Post ID: 20945
Reply to: 20215
Ear plugs!
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
it would be great to lower the noise level of the vacuum, by any means available. Perhaps NG might have used quieter components and/or designed it differently.  However, I see no practical way to remote the motor for the disc-spinner function.



Paul S


Folks,

 I hate to be a scold but please use ear plugs or something similar when vacuum cleaning records or even cleaning the carpet. You only have one pair of ears.
01-26-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 50
Post ID: 24650
Reply to: 12167
This is the best I have seen


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-12-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rl1856
SE USA
Posts 1
Joined on 02-13-2018
Post #: 51
Post ID: 24689
Reply to: 24650
Ultrasonic Cleaning
 Interesting thread.  I went down this rabbit hole a long time ago, and I think I have emerged, or at least can see light at the end.  I started with a Nitty Gritty, generic alcohol water mix and fine nap brush.  I noticed a positive difference, but felt there was room for improvement.  I added a  Spin Clean before the NG, and noticed a further improvement, but still not quite what I was looking for.   Records were cleaner overall, and on many the noise floor was lower the and the noise floor of my system.  I could hear fade outs or gain roll off down to nothing.   But I could still hear a low level whoooshh- shhhhhh sound on many LPs as the background noise floor.   I read a lot of reviews and posts for ultrasonic cleaning, and the more I found out, the more I realized that US could be a significant improvement.

I recently put together a DIY US cleaner using a Chinese 9L US tank and a Vinyl Stack to spin the LPs in the tank  After much research, I settled on Rushton's diy cleaning mix using Tergitol, Hepstat 256, 91%+ isopropyl, distilled water.  After experimentation with times, method etc I now use the following procedure:

Clean with Spin Clean to remove all surface dirt, and most embedded dirt
Rinse
US Clean for 15 min at .3 RPM (1 rev per 3 min) in 35 degree C water, using the mix described above
Rinse
Nitty Gritty Vac Dry

My results are outstanding.   I can hear an audible difference from the addition of the US step.  Cleaner, clearer and more distinct transients.  Much better HF extension, more air and ambiance around musicians.  And almost complete removal of the whooosssh- shhhhhh background noise.  I know it is a cliche to say that "a veil was lifted" but the additional clarity I hear is just that.

What prompted my addition to this thread, was several comments made at the beginning of the thread, specifically regarding embedded dirt that remained impervious to several methods of deep cleaning.  My theory is that dirt becomes embedded, and maybe chemically bonded to the walls at the bottom of the groove and into the very small undulations representing leading edges of transients and HF content.  The use of specific cleaners and the US cycle breaks down and removes this last layer of debris.

My evidence is the surprising amount of effluent in the bottom of the US tank after cleaning  a dozen LPs.   Remember, all records are cleaned via Spin Clean and rinsed before immersion in the US tank.  The effluent represents debris NOT removed by the Spin Clean alone.

It is not all lollipops and unicorns.   Greater clarity also makes some types of groove damage more audible.  And on some LPs I experience an increase of pops and tics as I get closer to the inner groove.  I think the later issue can be addressed by more careful drying.

Anyway just my experience; yours may vary.
02-13-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 52
Post ID: 24693
Reply to: 24689
No such luck
I must be somehow unlucky here. I recently added a US cleaner from Audiorevita +DIOY 1micron filtering. I use Rushton's recipe with 5% IPA +0.13% Photoflo + Deionezed water, 15mins, 35C, 1.5" spacing, 60% power@40kHz, 3rpm (yes, the motor is quite fast). Then pure water rinse + vacuum+ 3% Etanol final  rinse + vaccum + destating using an ion blower. I tried it on several vinyls previously cleaned on my Okki Nokki vac in a 4 step process (2 brushings with IPA + 2 rinse).

...no effect to talk about so far. The background as noisy as it was, all pops& clicks plaguing me there, sometimes even seems more. I hav a feeling that sometimes I lost a bit of directness of the sound. Perhaps the vinyls I selected are permanently worn out (all are 2nd hand bought God only knows where) and US cleaning in some cases actually reveals more of the damage? Have to experiment more.

Cheers,
Jarek


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-14-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 53
Post ID: 24694
Reply to: 24693
Some Grease?
Short of an Audio Desk Ultra-Sound unit, like Mark's, I've been thinking about trying some stuff I found called "Crud Buster", because it seems to clean other stuff without messing things up. The label says it contains: Ethoxylated Alcohol, Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate, Glutamic acid, N-di-acetic acid, tetra-sodium salt, and Sodium Hydroxide.  Maybe the Glutamic acid is some sort of "grease", and I'm hoping this will "lubricate" the record surface just enough, as I believe extreme drying effects exacerbate the "scratchy" sound.  Of course, as we've beaten to death already, too much grease = too little "traction" for the stylus.



Paul S
02-18-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 54
Post ID: 24698
Reply to: 20207
A nice video


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 55
Post ID: 26146
Reply to: 24698
Perspective!
I must have been otherwise pre-occupied when I first watched and listened to this video, because it surely warrants a positive response. I am very impressed, not just by the guy's technical knowledge and skills, but also by his practical implementations. The Great Hope is that people like this who can also hear well, and who know and care about music, and who can run a business will "get involved" with record cleaning. I am keeping one eye peeled for flying pigs, which I will take as a sign that a solution is at hand.


Paul S
05-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 56
Post ID: 26161
Reply to: 26146
Video: How Records Are Made
When thinking about how to clean records -- even brand new records -- it may be instructive to remember how records are physically manufactured. This is a nice video that reviews the process:

https://youtu.be/awmA-z6EgrE
05-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 57
Post ID: 26162
Reply to: 26161
No Way That Can Work!
The more one knows about the process, the more unlikely it appears that we'll ever get our problems solved! Certainly, the switch to computers has not made things appear less convoluted! Rube Goldberg is IMMORTAL!

Thanks, Adrian.


Best regards,
Paul S
Page 3 of 3 (57 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Stop buying the records cleaning fluid?..  I think it is all about oil....  Analog Playback Forum     3  31195  09-28-2008
  »  New  Michael Fremer Continuums…..  Pre-manufactured box speaker...  Audio News Forum     54  613198  01-21-2006
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