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01-08-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1001
Post ID: 17690
Reply to: 17688
Asking for trouble
fiogf49gjkf0d
What happens if you make these changes and then you experience a bad electricity day?? You won't know whether the problem would have occurred anyway in the original setup..

You need to allow a sufficient time to elapse to verify that different conditions are not able to affect the system. I would say six months is necessary of trouble free operation since that will get you into the summer season. I indicated previously that I thought a separate drop was the only sure way to ensure isolation from the rest of the house. Good to hear that your initial results are positive.
01-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1002
Post ID: 17739
Reply to: 2931
My version of CES stunt.
fiogf49gjkf0d
A guy I know just went back from West cost and told me about his impression about the CES show he visited.  I told him that I am not at very high esteem about the manufactures who waste their money to participate in consumer shows and who chaise the idiot-reviewers in there in order to suck this dicks better then it was sucked in previous rooms. Regarding the sound  (and in context of this thread): sure no one is looking a good sound at CES but many of the room do not have good sound not only because many known reasons but also becomes the Vegas rooms have very bad electricity.

So, if I was an audio manufacture, for instance if I run the PurePower company, then I would do my version of CES stunt. The people at the show do not know that with PP3000 the sound they demonstrate in Vegas would be 231 times better. PurePower does not want to pay money to idiotic advertising and to sponsor the worthless rooms in Vegas. This is very understandable and in their please I would do the very same. However, having the product as that have and having the superbly simply demonstrable results that PP3000 is able to throw I would do the following:

1)      Introduce to the PurePower unto a damn bypass switch
2)      Make lat say 50 units, load them in truck and bring them to Vegas
3)      Tape the units with some kind of spongy pads to protect them from damage.
4)      During the first 3 days what the show is close to public walk around the room and offer the PurePower units to loan for free to the end of the show. Do not ask to advertise in the room that fact that PurePower was used just let the room owner to use it if they feel it helps to sound.
5)      Collects the units after the show from whoever let the units go, and go home

So, what does it mean? The PurePower spent virtually nothing: just cost of shipping. In response he would get a stunning jolt of reputation as a company that advanced the tangible and confirmable result of entire industry. It is not a big deal that consumers at the show will not know that PurePower units were used.  The manufactures will and the will advised to own customers to use the PurePower with their own equipment - this is very powerful incentive, much more powerful than anybody ealse recommendation.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1003
Post ID: 17740
Reply to: 17739
Romy is far too modest
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy said "then I would do my version of CES stunt.During the first 3 days what the show is close to public walk around the room and offer the PurePower units to loan for free.. The people at the show do not know that with PP3000 the sound they demonstrate in Vegas would be 231 times better..."

Romy, Even you do not believe that the Pure Power device is a panacea. If you did you wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars , hundreds of hours and hundreds of posts here trying to figure out why it didn't work properly straight out of the box. I'm not saying that it didn't do some positive things; just that there were many issues. You took a promising device and spent a hell of a lot of time and effort figuring out how to operationalize it (make it work outside the lab). How could they remotely duplicate at a hotel what you did ??

Second, high-end vendors think of their products as their BABY. It may look funny but it's their baby. Now imagine you went up to proud parents and said "Hey your kid doesn't look that marvelous. But if you stand him/her under this special light that I  have right here then your kid will look fabulous."

Third high-end vendors don't want people to think that their product requires any help or improvement above whatever compromised tincan they have tried to market.. Look at all the tube amp vendors who stick the world's worst tubes into their audition units. They want you to buy the more expensive tin can in their product line not some other guys tin can. You have devoted dozens of posts to that very topic.

 Fourth it's entirely possible that the Pure Power unit will reveal how lousy their audio show system is. Haven't we all had the experience of sticking some better component into the system and suddenly hearing more bad stuff? That applies even to LPs and CDs. As my system improved it changed my opinion of what recordings were good or bad.


01-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1004
Post ID: 17741
Reply to: 17740
I was called with all names but I never was called too modest
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
Romy, Even you do not believe that the Pure Power device is a panacea. If you did you wouldn't have spent thousands of dollars , hundreds of hours and hundreds of posts here trying to figure out why it didn't work properly straight out of the box. I'm not saying that it didn't do some positive things; just that there were many issues. You took a promising device and spent a hell of a lot of time and effort figuring out how to operationalize it (make it work outside the lab). How could they remotely duplicate at a hotel what you did ??
Steverino, you are very wrong with it. I did not do anything with Pure Power device. Yes, I spend a lot of time and efforts with the PurePower idea but as the result I have more or less stably performing electricity in my room. Is it absolute solution and could it be better? Of course it could but do you know a one that could be brought in my house by UPS man? I wish know it myself…

Regarding the rest of your comments: whatever you say but the electricity in Vegas is not good. The last CES that I did was I think 2005 and it was very clean purely electrical event. The few rooms hat I selected to myself did sound in one way at 10-11am but after lathe the sound in the room was absolutely flipped and turned very ugly with very heavy gray grain – a typical electrical problem...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 1005
Post ID: 17742
Reply to: 17740
Moreover...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...exhibitors often do not have the time to spare to try a new device that may or may not improve their performance. In fact their systems rarely perform well even up to their lax standards, on the first day.

That said, I well recall the years when Barry Kohan brought a selection of isolation devices (Brightstar Audio) around on a Radio Flyer and offered them to exhibitors. He must have gotten into four dozen rooms as they seemed to be everywhere. And his business grew into a powerhouse after two or three years of that merchandising.

As to the "their baby" argument, too many exhibitors are indeed like that, but an at least equal number are open (anyway in theory) to such things. Heck, there was a time when people didn't even care about cables, and now...

For years and years I've told the guys to do whatever's needed to sound good, and if they have to hide some sort of isolation or power scrubber or what have you, do it! And if you're discovered, no one will blame you because those hotels have so many problems!

Romy: "Open to the public" or not, the public and the reviewers are there every day of the show.

clark
01-24-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1006
Post ID: 17743
Reply to: 17741
Ok romy you are not modest just forgetful
fiogf49gjkf0d
Dear Romy,

 I didn't say you bought another device to compensate for Pure Power, I said you spent time effort and money to operationalize it in your system with new dedicated linee, rejiggering positions of audio components, using isolation transformers between the Pure Power and the component etc.

I promise I won't call you modest again.
02-13-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1007
Post ID: 17832
Reply to: 2931
PP3000 and power cords.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The topic is absolutely idiotic but it is what it is. For the last week I was trying alternative power cords for my PP3000. Not that I was looking for some kind of different sound but I was trying a heavy shielded power cord with 30A power receptacle.  You will be very surprised but with this power cord I got some HF harshness and some flattens in upper midrange. It turned out that that stock PurePower’s power cord was WAY better. Now, why the power cord BEFORE the regenerator might make any difference is beyond me but it is what it is. The story of Albert Einstein and a horseshoe over his door comes to my mind…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1008
Post ID: 17836
Reply to: 17832
Electricity comes from other planets
fiogf49gjkf0d
This goes back to the discussion a few weeks ago of what these components' power supplies are "expecting" to see. They were built and tested with certain kinds of AC waveforms as input. If you give it something it was never tested with, the design may not optimally deal with it.  Remember my experience with a balun and the VPI SDS.The balun placed between the wall and the SDS messed up the sound almost exactly in the way you describe. The balun placed after the SDS and before the turntable motor produced noticeable improvements in clarity and depth.
02-14-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 1009
Post ID: 17837
Reply to: 17836
WHY?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Why hasn't all this been understood and resolved?! Here we are in the 21st Century... we know everything there is to know about audio... and yet...
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1010
Post ID: 17841
Reply to: 17836
Baloon
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
This goes back to the discussion a few weeks ago of what these components' power supplies are "expecting" to see. They were built and tested with certain kinds of AC waveforms as input. If you give it something it was never tested with, the design may not optimally deal with it.  Remember my experience with a balun and the VPI SDS.The balun placed between the wall and the SDS messed up the sound almost exactly in the way you describe. The balun placed after the SDS and before the turntable motor produced noticeable improvements in clarity and depth.


I don't know if you've noticed my post, but the baloon story after the synthesiser may have  a very direct explanation.
A step towards testing  my hypothesis it is to try to steal a good spectrum anal-yzer and see
the spectrum of the synthesiser output with and without the baloon. Can you do it?
Cheers,
nset



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-15-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1011
Post ID: 17849
Reply to: 17841
Response to romy's post
fiogf49gjkf0d
NSET,

 My comment you reference was in response to a post by Romy a month or two ago on this thread. He mentioned that he had put an isolation transformer before and after his PP3000 and had gotten different sonic effects depending on the position. If I had T&E equipment I would run the test for the sake of curiosity, but since I don't I didn't. Perhaps Romy hooked up the scope when he did his own test.  Regards.
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1012
Post ID: 17862
Reply to: 17849
The point with balun
fiogf49gjkf0d
Steverino, this is not the point who responded to whom and how.
The point is that in your particular example: a balun (HF isolation tranny)
placed after a (presumably) digital power oscillator the explanation of better
sonics might perhaps be reliably tested. Again, a possibility I've been thinking of
is that perhaps the digital power synthesis of SDS is not cleaned well enough and balun helps
getting rid of digital noise. A scope will not help here, also IIRC ROmy doe not use
any digital power synthesis for powering his TT.
My motivation for taking this point here and getting so interested in your particular experience
is that I'm cooking myself a digital 3-phase power oscillator for powering my EMT and the problem of
digital noise and it's propagation on the surrounding equipment
has been on my mind. I don't know how SDS synthesizes power, but I took it seriously and commisioned
an uC controller with a 16bit synthesis of the power sine. Perhaps a massive overkill butt all those
digital toys are insanely cheap and easy to programm. The first results are promissing, with low harmonics.

Cheers,
N-set








Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1013
Post ID: 17863
Reply to: 17862
Everythings riding the line for free
fiogf49gjkf0d
NSET,

  Sorry for any confusion. It seems clear from Romy's experiences and others that the electrical line is a transportation system that lets everything ride for free to any station and back. Yes the SDS uses a quartz crystal oscillator and digital components and almost certainly dumps (a small amount) of noise up the line. But think about it. That noise travels only to the turntable motor not the signal path. This is in clear contrast to the power supplies of audio amplifiers etc.  The improvevent by isolating the noise was not the same as the improvement wrought by the SDS controller itself. The SDS improves pitch stability and transient definition. However inserting the balun produced changes of soundstage depth and overall clarity more similar to those found by using it with pre and power amps. Thus somehow the noise must travel to the turntable motor and then get picked up by the cartridge or tonearm cable. It seems clear that the default assumption is bi directional isolation of every component is advantageous unless Empirically found not necessary or harmful.

I don't have sufficient expertise  to usefully conduct the kinds of tests you are contemplating. But it is not clear at least to me what precise tests are most valid and required. After all Romy has sometimes found audible differences without seeing anything with his test equipment. I hope you and others can test this out and determine more precisely what is going on in the line After it passes through the first component from the wall..  Most people are just going to have to test empirically the isolation of Every component no matter where it is. Regards, Steverino
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 1014
Post ID: 17864
Reply to: 17863
Good one, steverino
fiogf49gjkf0d
It says everything, yet it says nothing!
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1015
Post ID: 17865
Reply to: 17864
Nothing
fiogf49gjkf0d
Clark,

  How sad that I didn't know this "nothing" 15 years ago (including yes the effects of polarity and phase), but I'm always the last to know.

  And how strange that following the logic of this "nothing" (and this thread) has suggested a number of concrete actions that have significantly improved the sound of my system at very modest cost.
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 1016
Post ID: 17866
Reply to: 17865
Apologies if you took it wrong
fiogf49gjkf0d
I thought I was being droll, echoing an old Chinese proverb.

Anyway, I'M usually the last one to know...

clark
02-16-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 1017
Post ID: 17867
Reply to: 17864
Nothingness & somethingness
fiogf49gjkf0d
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
It says everything, yet it says nothing!
That was exactly my impression too Big Smile
I've proposed a concrete mechanism as to why in the particular context a particular solution
works and a concrete way to test it.
Cheers,
Nset


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
02-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1018
Post ID: 17878
Reply to: 2931
Do you want to be my neighbor?
fiogf49gjkf0d
That is very interesting. I have a distortion miter plugged all time into my power lines and he last 2-3 days it went out of reservation. Literally it goes absolutely crazy suggesting the there is huge amount of noise in the lines. I did check the meter and confirmed that it is not broker but I did not look further into the power lines. The sound all more or less all right but I wonder what has champagne in the power grid that suddenly my house got so much noise. I did not make any change in my electrical environment and no one built recently a huge manufacturing plant in my town. I wonder what it might be.   If I have time tonight then I would like to shot down everything in my house, literally take everything off line to see if it make any difference and I will try to encourage my neighbors to do the same. For sure I will not use my neighbors as some kind of electricity hostages but I wools like to try isolated what was reason for this huge ongoing spike of noise during the last 3 days.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1019
Post ID: 17879
Reply to: 17878
Special goggles
fiogf49gjkf0d
Remember those old horror flicks where the scientist would invent special goggles or a viewer and then start to see Things That Should Never Be Seen.

Have you taken a look at your power company website? It's entirely possible that they are doing something to "improve" the line. As was posted here about a year ago, the power companies are putting all kinds of (digital) monitors and regulators on-line. They usually are proud of their latest muckups.Then when Romy turns on the amp the power company will send him an email to limit playing time to 30 minutes.

The important question that "enquiring" minds want to know is whether the sonics changed in your system during this attack?
02-23-2012 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1020
Post ID: 17880
Reply to: 17879
Smart Grid
fiogf49gjkf0d
Some time ago I mentioned that the nation is converting to what the power companies call the "Smart Grid".  I have not bothered to check the specifics, but I know it involves "digital" meters and metering that "talk to the mother ship".  Here, it's a fait acompli, but other areas will conform, eventually.  They say it has to do with "meeting peak demands", but it also appears to "conserve" whenever possible.  Like I said back when, both the worst and the best electricity (for hi-fi) seem to be behind us.



Paul S
Page 51 of 96 (1,917 items) Select Pages:  « First ... « 49 50 51 52 53 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175315  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112427  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  925056  02-16-2007
  »  New  My feelings about new exciting audio products..  Vacuumstate...  Audio Discussions  Forum     25  264952  04-30-2007
  »  New  Musique Concrete horns..  These are now sold as Kornhent products...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     6  108313  06-12-2007
  »  New  Compression drivers and the “clean signal”...  The NEW “Compression drivers and the clean signal”....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  163631  07-12-2007
  »  New  Digi Redux; Drive 1 transport and iDAT-44+ DAC..  Moray James SPDIF!...  Didital Things  Forum     27  230739  09-28-2007
  »  New  Metal domes..  Try the one Lansche is using...  Audio Discussions  Forum     6  79021  11-08-2007
  »  New  The power AC Outlets?..  Where to Pick Up the Gong?...  Audio Discussions  Forum     2  43211  10-31-2008
  »  New  The Avicenna's failure is the great Avicenna success!..  New life for Avicenna...  Audio Discussions  Forum     8  84013  02-03-2009
  »  New  Internet and electricity..  Suboptimal. . ....  Didital Things  Forum     1  29367  01-07-2010
  »  New  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements..  Electricity... power strips and ac improvements...  Audio Discussions  Forum     0  16695  03-30-2010
  »  New  Another example of energy..  Tehran 230v...  Audio Discussions  Forum     1916  9950707  01-29-2011
  »  New  I good spot-light for a turntable?..  Reply...  Analog Playback Forum     15  154769  10-24-2010
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