Romy the Cat wrote:

What however I would like to ask you is the subject that bothers me the most: how can you determine that the record is cleanable? So, my question is – how you differentiate the noisy record that might be cleaned and improved further and the records that are beyond the cleaning help. Are any of you come up with any more or less objective or demonstrable test that would recognize the noise as some kind of special noise that might be cleaned?

Paul S wrote:

I have certainly subjected some records to very rigorous cleaning and still they sounded "dirty".  This is one of the things I would love to check out with the stereo microscope.

Paul S wrote:

I have long suspected that some of the commercial record treatments were not so much concerned merely with cleaning the record but they were at least as concerned with making good and certain that the record would sound noticeably "better" after treatment, regardless of the cause of the noise.  In this case, some sort of slippery "filler" might just do the trick for the micro-damaged LP grooves.

Paul S wrote:

As for the full-tilt RCM cleaning, do people really do this more than once per LP?

Adrian, wouldn't another microscope problem - besides a light source - be the depth of field problem with the typical "one barrel" microscope?

Also, by "jagged edges" I mean in this case the sort of damage sustained by groove walls by any number of means, and for any number of reasons, including "plastic" formulae that are susceptable to fracturing or shattering even when used +/- as intended.  I think there are some old "styrene-type" LPs out there that are especially vulnerable to this sort of damage; certainly some vintages of some labels often sound like they are so damaged, even after "thorough cleaning".  And it also seems possible that some LPs simply do not come out of the mold intact; ie, they just start out "jagged".

Anyway, plenty of reasons why cleaning might not make the record quiet.  And I do not have a good enough handle on the "sounds of damage" to say exactly whether the source of the noise is dirt, leftover treatment or damaged "vinyl".  Being an OCD geek at heart, and naturally curious, I would have bought a stereo microscope a long time ago if they weren't so freaking expensive.

Best regards,
Paul S

drdna wrote:

To me, there are three types of problems: 1a) grime piled on top of a record 1b) defective vinyl piled on top of a record 2) scratches cutting into the vinyl Type 1 deflects the needle upward and Type 2 deflects the needle downward. Because I am always listening to the absolute phase of each song (it is always different for each album), I think I can hear this. Certainly I know if I switch the absolute phase of the system, I can hear the noise clicks also change their sound. This is the easiest way to tell if something is to be cleaned. Many times also if the noise is Type 2, a lot of this is actually Type 1B, due to small jagged edges rising up around where the scratch is. If only we could cut those tiny jagged edges off! The best I can do is to use an old heavy needle/tonearm with a lot of inertial mass and play through that area.  The needle just sort of rams through the obstruction and removes a bit of the noise, like using a lathe. This is a lot less destructive than it sounds. I just play the area with an old needle; when I go back to my usual needle, the noise has reduced, not gone away of course, but reduced.

Paul S wrote:

Adrian, wouldn't another microscope problem - besides a light source - be the depth of field problem with the typical "one barrel" microscope?

Well, we did have the Cleaning Contest and do stay with my position – a regular wash is all that might be done to a record. I have pretty much the same experiences as I had 7-8 years ago when I was trying to use different cleaning “improvements”. It is like a rule- if an industry offers something beyond a common sense then it is most likely a sham… Anyhow, the Osage  AI System cleaners turned out to be no just bad but dungarees – they affect sound and I was not able to remove the negative effect Osage  did with any of my consequential re-washed – perhaps I need to try a pure alcohol to recover the record. I would not make any assessment about the enzymatic theory – I do not know if it does anything. I however did re-read the Osage site in context of the actual result that I experienced with their AI cleaners and I do not find the Osage views as honorable. I do not know if it is a pure deception on Osage part or they just ignorant and do not know what they are doing but in both of the cases what they offer do devastate sound of the records – unfortunately it looks like permanently.  Now go back to the Wash de Regula…

Well, I gave away my Osage AI System. The engagement with OsageAudio was a false move. After playing with AI System solution and reading everything at OsageAudio site I am confident to state that the OsageAudio is/are quite ignorant about what they do. The amount of stupid industry medals that they receive and the positive feedback that they get from press and from their users is in my view not an evidence of AI System’s advances but just an indication of low level demands from the AI System supporters.

The AI Cleaning System does destroy sound; in fact destroy it in very mean way. I would not comment about the AI System cleaning effect – it is absolutely irrelevant. The effectiveness of AI application is not the cleaning effect itself and redaction of surface noise but just lubrication and greasing of groove. Many of you know about the negative effect to Sound by the “wet playing” – here is comes…. I know that many of you have read at the OsageAudio site that no oily, greasing or any other lubricants are being used but OsageAudio but it is lie. The  OsageAudio that I touched were extremely greasy.

Now, the OsageAudio cleaners do have some advantage over others “groove improvements” crap – the OsageAudio cleaners are VERY hard to remove from records. I made up to 5 washes and I still hear the clear presence of the OsageAudio sound. How would I characterize this OsageAudio sound? I could itemize the specifics of the sonic damage but I chose not to – it will be the homework for the folks who would like go to the bottom of this - I do not what to bias them with my commentaries.

So, the records cleaned with OsageAudio AI System cleaners are permanently damaged, are they? Yes, but the reasons I write this is because there is a hope for you - the wondering in the OsageAudio’s ail analog lovers. The records ruined by OsageAudio still might be restored by application of very strong degreaser that would remove the crap that AI System deposit into the groves. I made number of experiments with it and here are some tips, make your own assessment.

1)      Take a good record  that you know and that never was cleaned and clean it with OsageAudio AI System (one step or 3 steps is irrelevant)

2)      Play the record and note the huge change in sound in the area of ……..

3)      Buy a strong concentrated high quality degreaser. (The list degreasers that I trued are below). 

4)      Put the record to you washer machine, flood it with your regular alcoholic cleaning fluid. (I use the Nitty Gritty Pure 2)

5)      Apply the 5-10 drops of the concentrated degreaser to the WET surfaces of the record

6)      Keep spinning the washer machine, scrubbing the records with OsageAudio brash. The scrubbing is not the key in here but you need to have the degreaser mixed with regular cleaning fluid, and brushing would help. Alternately you might add the degreaser in high concentration to your fluid if you wish.

7)      Vacuum all fluid with degreaser

8)      Now wash and Vacuum the record again with regular fluid.

9)      Play the records and see how much better many aspects of sound are (feel free to name them…) when there are no OsageAudio oily residues are presented in the record.

The person of this post is not to snipe another ignorant industry partials as some fools might present it but to get some truth about what it right and what is wrong. I do not have any personal agenda against OsageAudio but I do not like the situation when people put themselves the in the position of industry authority/leaders and in the same deliver very sub-qualified actual result.

Anyhow, here are the degreasers I used:

1)      CW:100 – was recommended by a reader of the site from Europe:

http://www.wackchem.com/cw1100-super-english/cw-1100-super-windshield-cleaner.html

This is very powerful thing and is considered in the Old World as a high-end degreaser.  In US it is not being sold and available only re-branded by Porsche:

http://www.drivewerks.com/catalog/shopcart/CARE/POR_CARE_PORCAR_pg5.htm

2)      X-O Plus – this is a phenomenal Odor Neutralizer that I use for years and it has very strong degreasing actions no residue of any kind. This is mine the most beloved cleaner ever. The few drops of the concentrated X-0 removes any OsageAudio residuals, making the records to sound like day and night:

http://www.xocorp.com/

I did not use it and it might be a good solution to remove residual dirt from the death of the groove, similar how women remove hair from body.

http://www.recordrevirginizer.com/

However, the claims they make are ridicules:

http://www.recordrevirginizer.com/about.html

The most important is not even the idiotic statements but that at their site they have “before” and “after” section:

http://www.recordrevirginizer.com/beforeandafter.html

… and fro what I hear the test “after” do kill sound along with noise.

mem916 wrote:

I think there must be something to the theory that there is debris down in the grooves that the VPI and other similar machines cannot get out, based on the difference I hear after cleaning with the new machine.  I admit that I have not yet done a serious test though.  I only took a record that had been previously cleaned with the VPI and played once, sealed back up in an outer-cover.  When I get around to it I will clean one with the VPI, play it, and then clean it again with the audio desk and compare the difference.  And if I get real ambitious I'll record the results and post them somewhere.  But I can tell you simply based on convenience alone this thing is worth the money to me.  Mark

Cleaning and Drying VINYL CLEANER

The VINYL CLEANER - (not) a matter of philosophy

One can speak about two primary philosophies, two different approaches, that are used in disc cleaning (if you disregard the generally ineffective cleaning by hand): surface suction and point suction. Without wanting to go into the pros and cons of these two procedures, both have one common denominator - suction: I have heard the credo „the disc needs to undergo suction cleaning in order to become really clean“, at various high-end trade fairs and in diverse analogue forums. This statement is underlined by the product offerings on the market: there appears little alternative to suction cleaning.

I wish I could claim that by discussing this topic we have arrived at the gist of the matter - but in the case of disc cleaning the one thing all can agree on: when the dirt loosening process is not carried out effectively, then suction cleaning (or any other clever procedure) simply won't bring good results.

The VINYL CLEANER - a clean machine

In order to loosen dirt, residues, and other contaminants from the disc surface, the standard approach employs brushes. The cleaning results are at least as various and diverse as the brush materials that are used. From the shape of the brush, to the pressure and angle applied, to the speed of turning, numerous criteria, which have to work optimally together, play an important role in order to form the basis for efficient disc cleaning.

Unfortunately the worst case scenario occurs too often: instead of removing the dirt it is forced even deeper into the grooves, or spread across the entire disc surface, or worst of all, the analogue killer, the disc surface is damaged.

The VINYL CLEANER - a dust remover

The VINYL CLEANER doesn't rely on brushes to remove dust and other contaminants. Counter-rotating microfibre wet cleaning barrels, and the ultrasonic process, remove dirt gently yet thoroughly; even the finest particles sitting deep in the grooves of the disc. The cleaning fluid is recirculated and filtered during the cleaning process - in this way the dirt removed, or “shaken,” from the disc can't find it's way directly or indirectly back onto the disc surface. Only then is the foundation for the important final step created: the drying process!

The VINYL CLEANER - drying with no ifs, ands, or buts

Both surface and point suction rely on the vacuum created. The diminishing of the vacuum due to the aging of the apparatus, and the static charging of the disc caused by the effects of rubbing, are two main drawbacks of suction. Surface suction is generally characterized by the limited efficiency of dirt removal and loud vacuum cleaner-like noise. Point suction is typified by the slow speed of cleaning and complicated handling. Convenience is generally sacrificed in either case - both concepts in the main only allow one side of the disc to be cleaned at a time. Once again the VINYL CLEANER rips up the rule book! Both sides of the disc are cleaned and subsequently dried simultaneously. The gentle fan drying process is driven by two high-performance motors - with significantly lower noise, and with no creation of static!

Operation, handling and care

The VINYL CLEANER - maximum convenience

The VINYL CLEANER can justifiably claim to be the most user-friendly disc cleaner: operation, handling and care are all geared towards absolute simplicity and maximum convenience. Before first usage the VINYL CLEANER simply needs to be placed on a level surface, distilled water and cleaning fluid added, the wet filter be fitted and the apparatus plugged in - off you go!
Switch on the VINYL CLEANER, introduce a disc from above, press the start button - the cleaning and drying procedure run fully automatically, and you can get on with other jobs with no worries. The beginning and the end of the cleaning process are signaled both acoustically and by means of the LED display. Depending on the dirtiness of the particular disc the length of the main cleaning process can be individually set - simply at the touch of a button.

The VINYL CLEANER - easy to care for

To begin with a quick word regarding cleaning fluid: In order to treat the vinyl as gently as possible, and create the best possible sound, the cleaning fluid, specifically developed for the VINYL CLEANER, avoids the use of alcohol, instead relying on a mild biodegradable mixture with excellent cleaning properties and outstanding antistatic characteristics. Just one container of cleaning fluid concentrate - 2 are included in the delivery package - is enough to clean approximately 100-200 discs (depending on the level of disc contamination).

I honestly do not see anything in this machine, good and desirable as it might be otherwise, that warrants a price of $3,500. What adds insult to injury in my view are the frightening running costs. Let's imagine one has a collection of 10,000 used records which one would like to clean using the Audio Desksystem Vinyl Cleaner, at $14.99 per 100 records for the record cleaning fluid, one would need to spend $1,500 on cleaning fluid, plus, at $99.95 per 4 microfibre cleaning barrels each good for 500 records, an additional $500 for these microfibre barrels, that is $2000 just for cleaning 10,000 records! Surely someone with 2 grams of sense will see the perfect commercial opportunity to erase all traces of this rip-off company by coming up with a traditional suction or brush based automated solution that costs no more than $1000 and has running costs of £20 for the cleaning of 1000 records!

Rant over. I have a flight to catch to Ribeauville right next to Baden-Wurttemberg in Germany, that is less than 190 miles from the seat of Audio Desk System Glass. Talk about a missed opportunity!

Best regards
Rakesh

When I started with Analog there were only a few record Cleaning Machines avaialble, I bought a VPI 16.5 with my first turntable.

Now, with the analog revival the last 10 years much more units are available now.

Some general info about Record Machines:

Most think that speed/comfort is identical to superior cleaning. That is not true. 

You can't have it all.

Some swear on various cleaning fluids and others think that their removal is the key.

Type: The fast ones

For example VPI, Nitty Gritty, Clearaudio and all which are based on that design (a vacuum slot with 1 soft lip in front of it and another one behind).

The user can choose any fluid he prefers, can scrub the record or not, can choose the time the fluid will stay onto the surface before starting to remove it. This Design is technically very simple and you will find a unit which fits best to your wallet. They all do their job (more or less loud, with some ear plugs are recommended) but after a while they reach their cleaning limit and it is done (Physics: sucking power with a wide slot can‘t serve the same power compared to a point nozzle design). When the lips are wet (specially the one behind the vacuum slot after a few Records, the drying process is not able to clean the record in a way that it will be without noise finally. You have to clean it again later. 

Type: The comfortable ones

For example Audio Desk, a Ultrasonic cleaner and a new Manufacturer, KLaudio.

The AD uses the same fluid again and again, through filters, but from the technical view it is not a final solution. The filters can‘t hold back everything, the user can‘t use all cleaning fluids, it is a comfortable Machine with a lot of technical parts which can create problems after some time.Sooner or later most AD run into Problems, based on its technical Design. 

Type: The best ones

For example Keith Monks, Odyssey, Loricraft. There was only one Design which solved all problems, that was the Keith Monks Design. A point nozzle design which removes the fluid groove by groove, nothing will stay onto the record. It is technically much more advanced than most think, because you need some motors for the Arm, the platter speed and the string which is responsible for a good move of the Arm across the record. The User can try all kinds of fluid, all he need is something which is able to move into the grooves. The removal is done with a point nozzle and high vacuuming power (it is simple Physics, sucking power per diameter) and the record is cleaned groove by groove and at the end it is always dry and clean (except the user flooded the record with so much fluid that it is too much for the nozzle, then he does it a 2. Time and it is done). 

But it is logic, that this kind of cleaning needs time. It was made for professionals who cleaned records all day long and needed the same superior result from the first record to the last (in those days Libraries and professional record dealers, Studios...). 

Keith Monks passed away and Loricraft offered a cheaper copy (more or less, they start cheap and when you want better parts they will charge you for that) from this Design. The Keith Monks was always a final solution. Biting the price bullet and forget. There is also another one available in Germany, the Odyssey, it is from the former Monks Importer, same Design with a few improvements, but with superior technical parts. 

In audiophile discussions there are a few directions (speed, price, cleaning solutions...) and of course, being owner of "the best". 

The definition of the word „best“ is like a car discussion. I think, it is more helpful to show, what is responsible for what and based on that knowledge, every reader can choose the unit which matches his ideas or Phylosophy best.. I hope that my few lines will give some useful information about those units. 

Each unit is better than doing nothing or using a wet towel.

The Records

This is also important imo, some have problems from the pressing plant (modern Reissues for example), you can clean them 15x and you will still hear an improvement, but they will never run really silent. Based on that we have the endless discussions about cleaning fluids, the cleaning time, enzymes and so on. I found the solution for myself: I trash them.

Older records can have groove damage, based on wrong VTF or defect diamond or bad Arm geometry.... then it is done, no way to improve them. Some have pops like mad, that can be based on blisters in vinyl or the owner before used alcohol and that one removed the elastic material in the groove walls. Then they are more or less defect too.

When you want to experiment, go for a normal, cheap, record, 80/90/100gr, made in the 70/80's, when they were sold in millions, the suprise is, they run always quiet, they have a lot of dynamics and when they are dirty, you can use the cheapest fluid and after one run they sound like new again. Music pleasure done right.