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   Home » Analog Playback» The last phonocorrector: “End of Life" Phonostage (301 posts, 15 pages)
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06-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 7532
Reply to: 7529
USSR SSG
 deemon wrote:
Brian , I never tried SSG cap in phonostage . SSG has a good reputation ..... but I'd prefer teflon for coupling . Mica caps , even good ones like SSG , seems too "bright" for me , but teflon sound pretty neutral .


SSG vs V-Cap would make for an interesting comparison Dima. Of course we would expect the V-Cap to be the clear winner but maybe something valuable would be learned? Especially for poorer aspirants.

I have yet to try SSG in both coupling positions since the largest single value I have is 0.2uF and I believe that is the largest manufactured.


Brian.
06-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 7533
Reply to: 7532
Question for Dima re 2nd stage biasing.
Dima, did you & Romy experiment with contact-potential biasing of the second stage before settling on fixed-biasing? My Spice files are on my old computer and effectively lost else I would run simulations out of curiosity.

Brian.
06-04-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
deemon
Posts 23
Joined on 05-25-2004

Post #: 43
Post ID: 7534
Reply to: 7533
Fixed bias
Do you mean a battery bias , Brian ? We didn't try it because of 1 V bias voltage - I don't know if the battery with this voltage does exist . I know only 1,5 V and 1,2 V cells ...... maybe using some chemical reactions we can obtain 1 V or little less , but I don't know how to do it ..... Anyhow , if we use a battery in the grid chain - we still need a resistor ( 2 M ) after the coupling capacitor , and we must add 2 contacts of the battery socket and the battery itself . But the fixed bias , as I think , is a more suitable solution in this case - we have the most simply sound chain from the plate of V1 to the grid of V2 , and the short grounded cathode of V2 . I think that it's the best idea ...
Dima
06-04-2008 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 7536
Reply to: 7530
The stunning sound of the phonocorrector.

 Brian Clark wrote:
Whereas I do. deParavicini's worked on designs in Japan over several years and became familiar with the  research going on there in the Seventies which culminated in identifying the HD decay-spectrum as a key indicator for "musicality". I.e. a monotonically decreasing level as order increased such that each HD  component masked the following component. This occurs naturally in a single triode operating under normal conditions. When I simulated the 834P circuit two things were obvious - the level of THD was high but the aforesaid decay spectrum approximated that of a single triode valve.

For what it's worth and acknowledging it is part of a bigger picture of course.

Brian, that is very interesting and I did not know it about Paravicini. Was it intentionally or now is a different matter… Whatever it is it works…

I am going tell you, Brian, and to other something ease that might blow your socks off, if you are associated or talk with Paravicini then feel free to forward this message to him. So, what would it be?

Well, the “musicality” and “humanity” of this Paravicini-based phonocorrector (whatever reasons are) turned out to be so astonishing that it becomes dazzling. Do you know that my new 834PTF phonocorrector has an ability to actually override the musicality of amusical medioum and to recover/recuperate the poisoned Sound? Do I sound too hallucinogenic, do I? The reality is that I am not hallucinogenic and that I very clearly, cognitively and rationally see the things. Let me to explain.

First of all what I’m saying does not mean to convince anybody. It is internet, my site, and I can run my month on any subject with any degree of credibility and trustworthiness. However, I do not think I was ever was spotted lying or to be deceptive (I can testify that I was stupid in some occasions but it was not deliberate and was just due to ignorance). So, I’m not lying now – the “End of Life Phonostage” does have some internal magic that makes Sound passing via the phonocorrector more interesting in comparing to (are you ready for this?)… the sound that did not pass via the phonocorrector. OK, now I shell make a long Mahler’s after-Allegro-Maestoso pose…


























One of the many reasons why I do not write audio-reviews because the task to convince the Moronic audio public is too simple. In my personal audio life I need to convince myself – a way much more complicated and much difficult task. If you read my post “Reviewing preamps by imbeciles”:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2589

Then you understand my attitude toward to the way how I see preamps. OK, why a phonocorrector shell be different? I use the same demands to RIAA corrector as I have to preamp. So, for a few years I practice the to run the inverted RIAA curve to phonostage and evaluate how the anti-RIAA-phonocorrector tandem competes with sound to the original source that I use to feed the anti-RIAA network. There is always a very specific differences but if you trained to do it and well understand the permanent limitations of your anti-RIAA network then you can say a LOT about the sound of a tested phonocorrector.

So, since end up the “End of Life Phonostage” I spent some time to listen it after the anti-RIAA. I always burn in phonostage with anti-RIAA sound as feeding phonostage with straight 3mV not RIAA sound obliterate lower basses for next 3-4 days. So, I am running the following chain:

88/24 files from DAW - Linx16 - Lavry 924 – Placette Active – Melquiades – Macondo (with Dominus Rev B everywhere)

Against the following chain:

88/24 files from DAW - Linx16 - Lavry 924 – Hagerman’s iRIAA (600R in -60dB out) - End of Life Phonostage - Placette Active – Melquiades – Macondo (with Dominus Rev B everywhere but using Proteus between Lavry and Hagerman’s filter)

EAR834PT.jpg

What do you think the difference in sound is? There are some very minute issuers here and there - it would be hard to comment about them to readers who not tuned to those evaluations BUT the shocking reality is that I generally prefer in term of “musicality” and “humanity” the sound that actually passes through the End of Life Phonostage. It acts as “harmonic’ catalyzer” – very pleasant effect indeed. Perhaps it injects some fat second harmonics into sound but it does NOT sound like ONLY that. I do not know what it does but the effect is there and it is very very very very positive. I would also say that the air-caped 834PTF is insultingly transparent in this test. I can only assure that 100% of people out there would listen that sound coming via the anti-RIAA-phonocorrector tandem with no clue that they were listening the RIAA double-inverted sound. So, whoever Paravicini did with his “HD decay-spectrum as a key indicator" looks like works…

Rgs, Romy the happy Cat

EAR834PT.jpg




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,231
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 45
Post ID: 7537
Reply to: 7536
More on this, please

My first thought is that anything a component adds or subtracts, it adds or subtracts similarly to/from everything, like putting the same amount of pepper on all food or salting and watering down all soup to taste +/- the same.

But of course you would not stay happy if this were the case...

So, what is it?

Are we talking about the sort of "re-constituting" and noise dampening that the step-up transformer does, or is this some other form of addition/subtraction that turns insipid, poorly-recorded rock and roll records into angelic soul singing?

Most important, how does it do with a variety of LPs?

I think there is a critical difference between making the best of musical content and simply making music.

I have to admit that although I always long for the latter, I am wary, weary and suspicious even of the notion, so I always wind up with my best version of the former.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 7538
Reply to: 7537
Interesting development!

Perhaps if you build another phono corrector you could play your TT through that, then through the inverse RIAA then through the EoL corrector then the linestage & power amps etc.

Will you be listening to all of your line level sources via the inverse RIAA and EoL corrector from now on?

06-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 47
Post ID: 7540
Reply to: 7538
One-Story Jack
In the absent of any counter hypothesis I stick to mine. By introducing a relatively high level of harmonic distortion at the beginning of the amplification chain with "natural" decay structure the result that reaches our ear/brains is most pleasing, at least as long as we are attending to the music and not analyzing the sound with technical ears that register the sin of commission that has been committed ;o)

Although homogenizing to an extent, for record collectors this is a very nice situation since it allows us to tolerate less than perfect pressings and enjoy the performance without undue distraction from the imperfections in the reproduction. For those who are focussed on the technicalities of reproduction rather than musical content it is not acceptable I guess.

12AX7 vs 6DJ8 anyone?


Brian.
06-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Brian Clark
Ongar, UK
Posts 78
Joined on 10-02-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 7541
Reply to: 7534
Nature's Bias
 deemon wrote:
Do you mean a battery bias , Brian ? We didn't try it because of 1 V bias voltage - I don't know if the battery with this voltage does exist . I know only 1,5 V and 1,2 V cells ...... maybe using some chemical reactions we can obtain 1 V or little less , but I don't know how to do it ..... Anyhow , if we use a battery in the grid chain - we still need a resistor ( 2 M ) after the coupling capacitor , and we must add 2 contacts of the battery socket and the battery itself . But the fixed bias , as I think , is a more suitable solution in this case - we have the most simply sound chain from the plate of V1 to the grid of V2 , and the short grounded cathode of V2 . I think that it's the best idea ...
Dima


Sorry Dima, missed your posting first time round this morning.
By "contact potential biasing" I meant the technique that Thorsten likes for 2nd stages - no biasing resistor in the cathode circuit but a very large resistor (10MegOhms upward) for the grid return. This exploits the Volta potential between two differing metals (those of grid wire and cathode surface) in a vacuum to produce a constant small biasing voltage sufficient for the relatively low signal level encountered in this position.

OK as long as grid current doesn't flow of course so not suitable for just any old valve under any old conditions.
However I do note that Thorsten didn't employ this technique when modifying the 834P circuit so I guess there must be good reason in this particular application.
I must ask him.

Brian.
06-05-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 7543
Reply to: 7536
The signal passing via the 834PTF-Air…

Will I be listening to all my sources via the inverse RIAA?

Well, the question was sarcastic but it has some rational grains.  If the signal passing via the 834PTF-Air does receive some positive attributes despite of the presumed nastiness of the dual-RIAA filtering then can we found some lessons in this fact?

In fact the lesson is not such a major discovery as I would like to convince myself.  Passing the signal via the “starving” 834PTF-Air turned out to be very educational but I head the same effect from other electronics. The Lamm L1 has remarkably similar effect but the Lamm L1 X factor also included the geometrical poisoning of imagine in a very unique way. The 834PTF-Air does not do it. I have now at home one 16-bit DAC that it trying to compete with my Bidat (it is an evolution for a company and I would like to keep the name private). The contested DAC is better then Bidat …but… the Bidat does have that “it”, that second harmonic dirt, that sets all bets off, making sound much more acoustic-like.

So, what the positive deference between the straight run from my a sources and the signal passing via the 834PTF-Air? I bought yesterday the 2007 Live recording of London Symphony with Gergiev conducting Mahler Sixth. An interesting performance, not perfect but very interesting. What could be more full-range then this! For a save of musically I would go for New Philharmonia with my beloved Barbirolli  -  he owns the M6 and this recording is the only M6 that I might listen for pleasure. For sake of lower levels of pleasure the Gergiev would do… Anyhow, I was experimenting with it running the 834PTF-Air in and out of the loop and it is VERY interesting….  I can get the “interesting” difference only via the immediately switching via the Placette’s remote control using the short-term memory. The difference within long- term memory in very complicated subject with this particular case (there are reasons). So, switching from the 834PTF-Air engaged to direct feed wants make you to vomit. I am not kidding! The sound feels like you Earth suddenly lost effect of gravitate and everything collapses. I make a pose,  listen a direct feed and then turn on the feed with anti-RIAA and 834PTF-Air in the signal path. The sound becomes VERY unpleasant very large but fat, chubby and imbalanced. The domination of the second harms oink is practically unbearable for the short-term memory. However, then mind, not actually not mind but senses and feelings begin to recognize an interesting save net – the sound got suddenly attached by with second harmonics but   at the same time got more dynamic (here is where ET2 does its amassing duty). So that enormous size of sound and it’s ability to flow slaw like a value river (slow is big plus in my book) but at the same time compensated with larger dynamics and ability to accelerate across range more rapidly and more “intelligent” make awareness very fast get use to this new Sound and to embarrass it very-very quick. Literally after 10 seconds I experience no discomfort. I do admit that there is some “coloration of harmonic saturation” but I did not detect so far that this coloration interferes with my listing experiences; I might recognize it later on….

Well, concluding, the saga with the ET2+ 834PTF-Air or as I call it the “End of Life" Phonostage turned out to be very educational. I would certainly do not support and would not advocate the idea of “Injection Channel” on the level of electronics  but  those observations of my make me to this about a lot of things. Why not to introduce the necessary but very defined “Injection” by the driver stage of the DSET for instance where it would be possible to introduce  a warmth of a given charnel by using the idea similar to 834P? It would problem imposable in 2-stage power design. There are many other applications…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 7544
Reply to: 7543
Apologies!
While the question was somewhat facetious there was supposed to be a serious point behind it.  I experience a similar 'effect' with a linestage I sometimes use. It is quite easy to hear what this stage contributes and initially it is too different to take it seriously.  However, the 'conditioning' or 'shaping' this stage applies is very seductive, I do soon hear past its interpretation and it does, particularly with my digital source, make the music seem more involving & (curiously) the power amplifiers seem more powerful. Learning about this effect & trying to identify what exactly has happened to the sound has been very educational.  It goes right against the virtuous principles of what's normally perceived as high fidelity, but asks the question whether, if the resulting sound is an improvement, (ie subjectively more enjoyable) the means used in achieving it are so important. I suppose that depends on what an individual's idea of improvement actually involves.

Active Line stages in particular have often been a puzzle. The output from your DAC ought to be relayed best directly to the input stage of your power amp, yet its not uncommon to hear an attenuator of some kind coupled with a gain stage actually 'improve' things.  
06-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 7545
Reply to: 7544
Tunable Y-factor?

Allo gents,
not sure if you've seen this:
http://www.pmillett.com/etf_sod.htm
http://www.pmillett.com/file_downloads/ThesoundofDistortion.pdf

Pete devised a circuit whose distortion order and level could be controlled. It was for educational purposes but might find application in - to quote JC Morrison - a hedonistic preamp.
cheers
cv

06-06-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 52
Post ID: 7547
Reply to: 7545
Harmonically-proper vs. harmonically-flexible
Thanks, Chris, it is interesting but juts for sake of self-education. I think the key is to have a unit that would have humanly-proper among of distortions or the distortions that in regard to the “Beach Effect” would mimic acoustic distortions to which we are have tined. What the signature of those distortions shell predictably be I personally o not know. Some people insist that they do, but I do see no credible and consistent success from nobody. It might be fun to have such a device to be plugged in it a tape loop, in fact I have proposed to one manufacture a few years ago this idea. Then I realized that making a harmonically-right devise is better then to make it harmonically-flexible.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 53
Post ID: 7564
Reply to: 7543
Some comment on the characteristic of air-cap sound.

Last night electricity was surprisingly OK, despite of the current heat wave and that everyone runs air-conditioning and I found myself listing deep into high. It was mostly LP and I came to a few interesting observations regarding the sound of my air-cap armed phonocorrector. The corrector has now it’s good tubes, closed up and as now it is in the state how it will be permanently.

I looks to me that corrector has own signature but not the signature that simile to any other correctors I have heard. The uniqueness that I would like to comment on this corrector is its ability go up in dynamic range of high frequency without introduction of… anything beside just a higher dynamic range of high frequency. The corrector gains volume in upper mid range with stunning cleanness. In my view it is unknown and not anticipated in audio as rise of HF volume is always associated with rise of some artifacts. The air-cap armed corrector does not do it, does not do it at all. While the air-cap filter has orders of magnitude more sophisticated and unsoiled ability to run across HF ranges it also open up unheard ability for discrimination of upper MF and HF differences. The idiosyncrasies of the “string bite” in each section, each orchestra, each style of playing manner and…. each pressing or each stamp batch became more highlighted, more insistently distincting one from other. Still, it is doe not by differentiating the artifacts patterns and most of audio does but somehow different, I do not know how to describe it at this point  – it shell be heard. You see, the air-cap has no “resolution”. It delivers very distinctive HF but no “resolution”. I always told that “resolution” was invented by Morons who would like to catalog the playback artifacts – the air-cap filter can afford to do “no resolution” type of sound.

Still, I feel that air-cap has own coloration. This “no resolution”, vacuum-clean HF dynamic is coloration itself as I do recognize this characteristic across all music that the corrector plays. The sound of the air-corrector has own signature- the “signature of tempted virtue” – this behavior does not exist during my experience of live musical events. I think I need some time to reflect and to think about what I hear from this corrector.

I do not particularly like Asian women. A few of them that I dated annoyed me tremendously with their overly zealous desire to compliment and please me. I am, as any other person, do not mind to be praised but I would like to get as a reimbursement for some kind accomplishes of mine that I personally values. To be admired by those Asian girls just because I was a current man in their live made me very fell boring and I always voluntary escape from the glorifications of the Asian women right into the hands of our Western bitching and demanding females. So far the air-cap filter in my phonocorrector acts in the way like an Asian woman those overly enthusiastic do essentially very positive things. Perhaps I ask too much or perhaps this effect will moderate itself with time but so far it is what it is.

The, the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-11-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,231
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 54
Post ID: 7565
Reply to: 7564
The sound of one hand clapping
I was wondering how the record heat would affect your progress.  Lucky you.

Interesting observations about the air cap.  Of course I am curious whether the added clarity additionally rewards/punishes +/- precision with VTA/SRA?

I have zero experience with air caps, but I did report on the big (4.7 uF) Teflon/PVC "composite" parafeed caps in the K&K.  This experience made me think about the idea of "viscosity" as I undestand it, the +/- cloying "drag" or "suction" on the sound as it tries to accelerate.

No matter what I hear about components in the way of buzz, when I actually listen to +/- music they deliver, there has always been issues with bowed strings, especially violions, and particularly massed violins.

Setting aside massed violins for now, one of the things I like best about the $$$ Cardas caps is that I finally clearly hear the bow work on violins, and not just the solos.  I realize that violinists can hear this with a table radio, or over the phone, but for me this really enhances recordings like the Beethoven PVC Trio that I posted about on the Music Forum.

This is NOT to say I now have "unrestrained" dynamics!  And after 45 years I am still waiting for massed strings to open up naturally.  Although I read about this a lot in the audiophile magazines, I suppose I will first need a recording where this actually happens...

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, balanced natural "expression" is a VERY good thing, and "touch" and "timing" at this level are the "Ballgame".

You did not mention it, but I am guessing that pitch distinction is also OK.  Looking back, there may be a certain "over-lap" between the dynamic suction and a slight smearing of pitch/tone.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-12-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 55
Post ID: 7567
Reply to: 7565
The air-caps as an ultimate cap.
Paul,

in my view the air-caps as an ultimate cap, the ultimate by own intrinsic topology. It is particularly the case for the 834P- like application as in there the cap is not biased by high voltage DC and gets constantly re-polarized. You see the problem with capacitor is the electromechanical influence of dielectric. A capacitor might be visualized as a termination of transmission line where a dielectric acts as a brick wall. However, any dielectric has own ability to be polarized (Teflon I think is the best from this perspective) and doing it is acts as a very microscopic cone of loudspeaker, changing it’s proximity to conductor and modifying the transmission line termination. In case of air-caps there is no dielectric at all, so there is no variation or reflection from it with change of the signal. The vacuum caps that I was planning to use initially even advanced from this perspective fun but they have own problems. Is the air-caps that I used are the ultimate cap? Not really. To make it ultimate it would make send to build own fixed air caps. It is very simple to do – just an array of parallel cupper plates. I did not do it but I might try it another day if I have too much itch in my hands.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 7615
Reply to: 7564
The tempted virtue of the phonostage’s prostitution.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Still, I feel that air-cap has own coloration. This “no resolution”, vacuum-clean HF dynamic is coloration itself as I do recognize this characteristic across all music that the corrector plays. The sound of the air-corrector has own signature- the “signature of tempted venture” – this behavior does not exist during my experience of live musical events. I think I need some time to reflect and to think about what I hear from this corrector. 
I was playing music latterly off vinyl and was thinking about the sound nature of my phonocorrector.  Above I said that the air-cap filter has own signature – I said it, I feel it but I have difficulties of get handle on it. I am very much free from a stupid pursue to have an coloration/signature -free phonocorrector, however I would like to have whatever colorations/signatures it might have were understood my me (not in design trims but in sonic trims) and were agreed by me. So, I have difficulties so far to understand (and I am quite good with that) the characteristic signatures of my “End of Life Phonocorrector”. Those signatures are there but they are amazingly elusive. This Phonocorrector has the temperament of a whore – it is very new to me.

Usually any piece of audio with which I dealt had own sonic set signatures. It is not necessarily bad thing. It like an accents in language – in many instances accents modify the meaning of said, however if the subject exposed at crucial level of depth then the presence and the value of accents become irrelevant. The same is with the sonic signatures of audio elements – the all screw up the sounds but if they hold the basic integrity of Sound then those signatures are out of attention. As I said the “End of Life Phonocorrector” has own signatures at “the sounds” level and I might not even convinced that they are so transparent from a perspective of Sound. However here is exceptionally interesting thing - the signatures are not static as in any other audio element I head but they shift from record to record.

Playing some records that I know very well for years and that I played in different settings I might identify the very fine specifics that I feel are not the part of this specific recording/pressing but rather a sonic contribution of my playback, a phonocorrector in given case. However, with another record the characteristic sonic injection from this phonocorrector changes. The phonocorrector truly prostitute itself, subduing own integrity and somehow reacting to the demands of the requestor. It is VERY interesting and in much unexpected behavior. I truly cannot get grip for it as now and I need to think about it more…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-20-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,231
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 7617
Reply to: 7615
Clarity vs. VTA vs. Character
Romy, you have said you are impatient with VTA, so I wonder if you have wondered enough to try playing with this just a little, to hear for yourself if the added clarity of the corrector includes VTA differences and/or if VTA has anything to do with what you are or are not hearing from your unit.

Have you noticed/compared the degree of the effects with spherical vs. line contact styluses?

I am not talking about "putting the pivot end of the arm downhill", or anything that provincial.  I am talking about the actual record to record angles becoming audible.

Weirdest case would be different sounds when playing the same record with the same cartridge, etc. twice in a row and getting different sounds; but I presume you are not experiencing this?

If sound merely differs record to record, welcome to the club...


Best regards,
Paul S
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 7626
Reply to: 7617
What VTA has to do with phonostage?
Paul,

I am not sure what VTA and anything else has to do with phonostage. The VTA is not a characteristic of Sound but a property of a given cartridge. Sine I it set and the VTF is not changed I do not change VTA. I do not use VTA to change sound, I get best from a cartridge and lest the rest elements to do their duty.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=45#45

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,231
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 59
Post ID: 7629
Reply to: 7626
Phonostage vs. VTA

No, VTA is not in and of itself a characteristic of Sound; but in my own system the stylus' vertical tracking/rake angle is not something that results inthe same sound no matter where I put it.  In fact, even small changes profoundly affect the character of the sound that the phonostage is expected to "make the most of".  And in my system, record thickness and original cutting angle are both - apparently - factors to be reckoned with in terms of setting VTA, which, in turn, audibly affects the character of the sound, in a "pattern" similar to what you have described earlier.

Sure, it's a nuisance; but this does not make it go away.  And at the same time it is something I am able to dial to very beneficial effect.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-21-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,701
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 7642
Reply to: 7506
The 834PTF’s cathode follower: tube vs. SS

 Romy the Cat wrote:

OK, here are some follow up thoughts after the completion of the project. I am sure I will burn it for a month or so. I think everything will be fine, I do not expect any issuers technical or sonic. The way how the entrance to the corrector done it is very easy to replace the 4 cable from 4 arms without replacing the cables. As I told I did found a very interesting “second phonostage” (very convent one) that I was planning to use with my other arms but if it is so convent to flip the cable I wonder if I go for the second phonostage. I still have my former 834PT and the 7788-7721 phonostage available, all performing perfectly fine … later on I will decide if I willing to use them.

There is one area that I would like to explore with my “End of Life" Phonostage after it will settle down. The very smart fist stage in there will be stay as is, also I have no interest to experiment with second stage. The last stage is just a cathode follower. In my ultimate buffer experiment I never was able to get a good transparency from tube buffers, so I am intending to put there (as an experiment) a transistor instead the last 12AX7. I am not planning to change anything but juts to take a male 9-pin tube socket, solder in there a transistor that is able to care 300V and juts plug it and play. It is possible that with SS output buffer I might get different result. What kind result I would like to get? Sonically I can’t at this point to identify what I would like to get but measurements –wise I would like to drive the low range to sub 8Hz at 0dB. It is not that my hands are itching but I feel that at line level SS buffer shell do better than a tube…. If someone know any good sounding low power (5-15mA) transistor at 300V-350V then please let me know. So far I was proposed MPSA42, ZTX458 and suitable but too powerful MJE340. As a reader of my site suggested:

“The NPN will reduce the output impedance => will affect the Riaa feedback increasing the gain by ~1db@20Hz and ~0.5db@50Hz(in your setup will be quite noticeable). A quick and dirty remedy is to add a resistor (1k5-1k8) in series with the emitter of the NPN. Although this could be useful to reveal the sonic properties of the NPN it may also defeat the trouble”

I still consider the options how to make the experiment with buffers substation clean and methodologically kosher. Sine I have absolutely no knowledge at SS any recommendation are welcome via the site or direct emails.

I made the experiment drop-in replacing the output stage of my second (none-air) 834PTF phonostage with a SS devise. Remind that it just a pure MM phonostage and it use my “dirty arm”: Grado Platinum, with SME M2-12 arm, VdH D-501 cable, 47K and 150pF load. It is not my best sounding arm but I was interested to observe the delta of everything identical just replacing the 12AX7 in the output cathode follower: to a transistor.

The guys who red my site advised me in selection of a SS devise that would do no changes to sircut of any kind and would be just drop-in replacement. I bought MPSA42:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/MPSA42.pdf

EAR834PT_19.jpg

 and plugged them in. The result was surprising to me.

I lost all bass, the bass in amplitude (a lot) and in quality - the bass become very shallow and unpleasantly fast.  Also, in a very minor degree the very HF become too… SS-like. Surprise? Anyoe I hate the result and I put the tube back, I will not try it on my “End of Life" Phonostage

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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