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  »  New  The Church of Denon 103C..  Re: Bejeweling the jewel...  Analog Playback Forum     8  45848  07-02-2005
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12-23-2004 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 418
Reply to: 417
It will be resolved further.

The latest corrector does everything better then SU2-834PT except one, very critical thing without which I can’t not fully devote my hart to it. Without doing into the detail I juts name that it has to do with certain aspects of upper bass reproduction. To elaborate on it would require writing many-many sentences that I would like to avoid at this point.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-23-2004 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
c.
Posts 1
Joined on 12-23-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 419
Reply to: 418
dl103 (undead)
i agree that there are more audiophile cartridges around than the dl103. but except maybe for the ortofon classic, they all have non-spherical stylii. i am sure that a lot of the "air", "space", "bloom" etc. of today's cartridges is actually distortion caused by elliptical, shibata or whatnot stylus forms. even though it's not perfect, the spherical stylus still tracks with less errors than any other stylus shape. this has been proven more than once.

the other thing is quality control. take any modern cartridge and examine it under a microscope. chances are that the stylus is not mounted correctly or that the cantilever isn't straight or or or... ortofon for instance has fairly good quality control on their top models, but certainly not on their spu classic or spu mono. no longer. i had to check five monos until i (accidentally?) found one with acceptable alignment of the elements. the dl103 (the original) is a laudable exception here. denon still has top notch quality control, you can buy any dl103 and mount it to your tonearm w/o worries. everything will be perfectly aligned. (this used to be normal, but needs to be applauded nowadays...)

btw. instead of using plastic washers you can also use a straight piece of copper wire with 0.5 to 0.7 mm diameter (insulation stripped). just place it between the cartridge and the headshell and don't overtighten the screws.

as for andreoli's micro magic cartridges: yes, they begin their lives as denons. but just about everything is changed... stylus, cantilever, magnet etc. and yes, they do sound a lot better than a stock dl103. big surprise...
12-23-2004 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 420
Reply to: 419
Agree to disagree

C,

I very much agree about the benefits of spherical needle, partially on the older records and out of condition records, and this is one of the reasons why people have multiple arms on TTs. Yes, in many cases the spherical stylus “tracks better” 9more about it below) but does is mean that we have to name the benefits that we get out of the modern complex-shaped cartridges as “distortions? I do not think so.

First of all there are many schools of thinking about “what would happen under a microscope”. I know very credible people who would very scientifically, very reasonably, with evidences, graphs, formulas and calculation convince anyone that none-spherical stylus is a better grove retrieving mechanism then spherical one. I know also very credible people who would prove the opposite. I really do not know, or care about the truth on this subject. Also, I do not try to find a correct answer by examining the extraneous language of the process.

I always have two stereo arms in use: one is a contemporary complex-shaped stereo needle and one with an older spherical (this is how I ended up with my Denons). By flipping a switch on the preamp and by looking which record (label, pressing, year, record conditions, country and so on…) plays better…  the unexpected truth comes through. The truth that I’ve discovered is that ANY record if it’s in a mint shape plays very fine on a better none-spherical needle. As soon a record is worn, even very slightly buy previous play or has any other imperfection (off-centered for instance or dirt) then the spherical needle defiantly helps.

The spherical shape of the stylus is very forgiving. Considering that 70% of people out there play with non-perfectly set up analog, and that many people play used records that were brutally abused in 50-80 by “ordinary people” it is not secret why many audio-folks have “bias to the spherical needles” and why they “admire” the Denons

I have a wonderful album: Horowitz celebrating his 25th anniversary of his American debut playing in Carnegie Hall on February 25 1953. (RCA LM-6014)  Begin of 50s was good times for Horowitz and he played very fine. The recording is phenomenal, probably the one of the best piano recording I heard. You know those albums: oversized cardboard boxes, first non-breakable records, strong grooves size of the damn Everest and that staggering dynamic range…. The record is in very shape and plays very fine. In the end of the evening the banger-Horowitz went for his show-peace – his own interpretation of Liszt’s Hungarian Rhapsodies #2. Well, considering the Horowitz’s personal dynamic range, the dynamic recording, and the fact that the record was cut in mid 50s any other shape of needle besides a spherical was not able to handle it (and not only this track but the entire album). OK, now is the punch line…. A few months ago I bought the first pressing of the same album… only sealed (paid $60 - love Horowitz in the end of 40s begin of 50s)... and you know what? Suddenly the entire album could be perfectly tracked with the contemporary shaped needles. Moreover, because they have no tractability problems they do sound WAY better! Would I call it “the distortions”? If I do then I love each moment of those “distortions”!!! :-)

This all boils down to a rhetorical question: are we wiling to be right or to be happy? Many contemporary-shaped needles do sound better and particularly on the complex music and with the context of mostly unknown in audio full-range sound reproduction. Should we have records in better shape then we might play them with complex-shaped needles. But if you are not so lucky then we build for ourselves the theories that conus-shaped needles track better then the oval needles, and particularly if the record was cut by triangle-shaped cutter.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
RonyWeissman
Lyon, France
Posts 138
Joined on 05-29-2004

Post #: 24
Post ID: 7581
Reply to: 232
Stuffing SME Headshell
Hi Romy,

How do I stuff the SME headshell (or other headshells) with silicon? I am tech idiot and can't imagine how to keep the silicon from just running out of the headshell, is there a type of silicon that dries after application I guess?

By the way I had made you an offer before and I will repeat it here in public.  I have what the french consider to be the ultimate mono cartridge (made for radio use several decades ago), if you want to have some fun and try it out in your system i'm happy to send it over for a one-year loan. You have to be willing to track your old pressings at 6g though to get the best sound though!

After the silicon I will try the volcanic stones on top of headshell like my audio store uses in Paris (I kid you not)...

Thanks,
R Weissman
06-15-2008 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 7583
Reply to: 7581
Using air blower as an antiskator ….
Ronny,

I might not be necessarily silicon, volcanic stones or compressed particles from the Galileo comet. Any none-magnetic mass will do, I use any bronze bolt if I wish. My selection of silicone was just because it is damping and convenient. I use 100% silicone sealant/glue that is being some everywhere in home improvement stores, aquarium stores or even in large pharmacies. It solidifiers with a few hours and harden within a day or two but it never become stone-hard. The good part also that it could be easily removed. The best thing to exploit is the glue that been used in magazine publication to attach CD or smelling examples to the pages. That glue is very soft and removable very well. Stick a few grams or that glue or silicone to the space between cartridges and tonearm contact and while it is still soft inject into the glue a few led shots. You might be as creative as you witch. You might even to put 5” toll mast atop of headshell and make a small fabric sail and then to blow air to this sail for antiskating compensation… :-) Thanks for the cartridge offer. I am not on the market for cartridge inspirations nowadays. I am very comfortable with what my SPU Mono does. I do not look for any betters result.

Thank again.
Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 12065
Reply to: 46
The Denon 103 as a tale about audio Mormonism.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Looking at my site’s stats I find is ridicules that the thread about Denon 103 is so frequently referenced from others sites and that near 50K people have read it. People like to argue out there if was right or wrong about my concussions regarding Denon 103. Some point my (what they feel are) “mistakes” or some even quote my typical mistypings accusing me that if I cannot type them my conclusions about Denon are incorrect. It is amassing how creative the people might be out there.

I do not debate or defends my position about Denon 103. I do not like this cartridge. I do not use it. I hate the whole stiff reading character of it sound. I do not like the sound of the records that remind me the Denon 103, and there are plenty of them. I admit that I do not like rigid sound from many analog installations that I heard – I cannot explain to people how “soft” analog shall sound. Most of the people make LP to sound like CD and cold and “violet” sound is a definition of quietly for them. To Each His Own, why would I care?

However, there is a group of the people out there that have a very different reaction to my Denon 103 dislike. They read each page of the thread multiple times and then they conduce that… live is too short to worry about Denon sound.

Well, I have seen it many times and I would not argue that live is too short to wary about Denon 103 but what it has to do with YOUR curiosity about the subject? I did have my interest about the Denon 103 sound, I invested my time and efforts to investigate the subject, reach my own concussions… What the shortage of the live has to do with the Denon 103 sound? If you not willing to invest your time in negotiation with Denon 103 then it is fine – not one oblige you. How the fact the live is too short explains anything about 103. The alight the drivers, to clean records, to put the speakers out of box, and to plug an amplifier into the wall – they all activities are too primitive from the perspective “live too short”. I agree with it but live is also what we do and if you completely voluntary have chose for yourself that the sound of cartridges interest you then the justification “live is too short” is not an explanation but rather a capitulation of interest. Again, there is nothing wrong with it bit it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of Denon 103 sound.

It truly amasses me when people with no sense of actions perform brainless activity and presume that anyone ease also are driven by senselessness and meaninglessness what the subject is very specific and very well-defied.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-27-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,104
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 12070
Reply to: 12065
I Can't Resist Saying...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Like I said before, my favorite analog threads are the Technics threads; but 103 threads run a close second.

These folks are downright fervent!

Mention the 103 in the same breath with a Technics TT and watch the counter roll blurred until it blows smoke.


Paul S
10-29-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 28
Post ID: 12081
Reply to: 12070
The wasted Denon traffic.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, Paul, I did not think this way but you are very correct. Technics TT, Denon 103 cartridges, Fostex speakers, “single girl with balalaika” music and Adcom CD players are kind of come along all together very well. It is not that I have something that all of it, juts as soon one begin to mention if them there is a wave of Morons with zeal to talk about it. Funny, when I wrote my Demon 103 observation I meant to wipe of the Denon 103 subject from my site but it turned out opposite and I have heard the comments that the very same Denon that I do not like might be “substantially improved” if it run it nude, or with a cardboard body, or after pumping a lot of UHF signal over the coil, or after boiling it in a water where 7 virgins were bathing… I always wonder: is people go into such extra efforts to make the 103 to sound “better”... then why they just do not get a better cartridge to begin with? Saying, it I still have my 103M that is VERY different from any other 103 needles and I might try it sometimes again.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stitch


Behind The Sun
Posts 226
Joined on 01-15-2009

Post #: 29
Post ID: 12089
Reply to: 12081
The world is a disc
fiogf49gjkf0d
I never knew, that the 103 fanatics are ruling the world (ok, not really, but they try) until I made the following:

One of my friends had someone in his area who is a cartridge maker (or repairs them), I ordered 4 Denon 103 R with modifications for some buddies (needle, Body...) and I wrote about it in a forum, but without Details, just that I have it and that they are not bad.

I never got so much agressive feedback, because I didn‘t say what was changed (it was the know how from the builder and he made it for friendship...even after 3 years they hate me when the discussion returns to the point of „The 4 special 103R‘s).


Anyway, ferwent or whatver, I would say „really sick“. Really sick, because their whole life is in search for the ultimate unit for a few bucks to show the world that they are idiots because they buy the „expensive“ (whatever that is) stuff, which is made wrong, which is overpriced and btw. completely wrong in frequencies.


When I read some DIY Forums, and I know some guys, it is always the same:

    They had everything, I repeat everything, and it is inferior to their blah-blah-Design They all dream from the ultimate Phonostage, in the size smaller than a pack of cigarettes And when they have it, it is maximum 67,78 USD My friends once called me and told me, he saw the first preamp he could walk in it, I asked "Uh,sooo big?" He said no, all parts are lying on the floor and are connected via cheap ,25Cent cables clamped to the parts and when he asked "Does it work?" the answer was "Hey, unbelievable but I need another cap which is made from a piece of moon, sorry I can't give you a demonstration..." Then they use all that (including their modified-to-Death-74,25 USD-bought-used-Denon 103) with their rattling Garrard, because they thnk, these vibrations are supporting the Bass and the Foot-whipping-Factor is only possible with the real „knowledge“



Kind Regards
Stitch
03-04-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
shannon
Posts 22
Joined on 08-08-2014

Post #: 30
Post ID: 21578
Reply to: 420
A young but mature horowitz
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

 A few months ago I bought the first pressing of the same album… only sealed (paid $60 - love Horowitz in the end of 40s begin of 50s)... and you know what? Suddenly the entire album could be perfectly tracked with the contemporary shaped needles. Moreover, because they have no tractability problems they do sound WAY better! Would I call it “the distortions”? If I do then I love each moment of those “distortions”!!! :-)


Romy the Cat

sorry to bring up this old stuff. especialy when its the moron fanboy topic thread. But what an outstanding find.  I will be looking out for a virgin copy. 

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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Don’t "use" VTA..  Don’t "use" VTA...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     0  16927  06-07-2004
  »  New  The Church of Denon 103C..  Re: Bejeweling the jewel...  Analog Playback Forum     8  45848  07-02-2005
  »  New  Say “no” to the light tonearms...  Grado Sonata & Ortofon Rondo Bronze...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     10  84083  12-11-2005
  »  New  EAR 834P Modification Guide..  Copper air caps...  Analog Playback Forum     38  392540  02-09-2006
  »  New  About EAR 834P Modifications..  Copper air caps...  Analog Playback Forum     38  392540  12-29-2004
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