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  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  109660  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo Horns: biography...  Macondo with Pussy Eyes....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  46031  05-18-2005
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  No wonder...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     72  407130  07-29-2007
  »  New  Midbass Horns and Real Estate...  Just a youtube video......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     247  1515092  07-26-2009
  »  New  Macondo’s Midbass Project – the grown up time...  Vitavox 15/40...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     455  2004514  05-20-2010
  »  New  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ..  Superbly interesting effect: Suspended decoupled floor ...  Playback Listening  Forum     0  12447  10-08-2010
  »  New  Bass impact on Turntable: how to estimate objectively..  I have done some work on this in the past....  Analog Playback Forum     4  29413  11-01-2010
  »  New  The meaning of lowest octave...  Vibrational bass...  Playback Listening  Forum     1  16188  05-18-2008
  »  New  The tapped horns: cons, pros and Sound..  Sorry, no images any more....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     56  487825  04-23-2009
  »  New  Monophonic bass: myth and reality...  I do not think so but I am OK with it....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     5  24993  04-17-2011
  »  New  The BEST bass cable?..  Dialectic biased cable....  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  27473  04-22-2011
  »  New  Sound from behind a window...  Sound from behind a window....  Playback Listening  Forum     0  9776  04-24-2011
  »  New  Getting more power from SET vs. properly distorting SS...  Sound Board...  Audio Discussions  Forum     4  32849  05-09-2011
  »  New  Impulse response, short notes and midbass horns...  A possible solution to better impulse?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     14  85917  06-13-2011
  »  New  Constructing LF modules to the limits..  The little glory of my small woofers....  Audio Discussions  Forum     54  335004  04-28-2009
  »  New  A slightly crazy idea for a new approach to LF..  I do like it conceptually......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  15682  03-30-2005
  »  New  Another time aligned 5-way horn project..  Thread moved...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     189  416115  08-12-2015
  »  New  The ULF cannel for my new listening room...  Awesome...  Audio Discussions  Forum     41  8384  07-29-2018
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
JJ Triode
Posts 75
Joined on 09-12-2007

Post #: 21
Post ID: 14862
Reply to: 14854
Placement of ULF #2
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
How about putting bass tower #2 directly behind#1, but facing the opposite direction from #1?  This would keep #2 away from the turntable, yield a symmetrical setup and enable #2 to energize the hot spot around your chair.Note, I'm not sure which tower carries the right and which the left signal, you might need to experiment with that if you take my suggestion.Regards,JJ
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 14864
Reply to: 14862
Why I like the like the location #1
fiogf49gjkf0d
 JJ Triode wrote:
Romy,How about putting bass tower #2 directly behind#1, but facing the opposite direction from #1?  This would keep #2 away from the turntable, yield a symmetrical setup and enable #2 to energize the hot spot around your chair.Note, I'm not sure which tower carries the right and which the left signal, you might need to experiment with that if you take my suggestion.Regards,JJ
This would violate livability in the room, if it exists. The idea is to place LF in the locations what it will have no impact to living environment. The location in the position #1 is not perfect acoustically but it has absolutely no impact the living in my room/home, that is why I so much like this location. Also, the bass is not heard practically no where except the listening spot – and this is HUGE. The listening spot has from +15 +20dB compare to the rest of the room – how do not take advantage of it!

NewRoom_ULF_Location.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-13-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 23
Post ID: 14936
Reply to: 14864
I need to find another ULF solution.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

NewRoom_ULF_Location.JPG

As successful I am with the midbass horns as problematic the situation with the lower frequency channel. I do have the good location for my LF channel and I setup the DC SS amp with line-level filter at 28Hz. The midbass horns do get benefited by ULF but the problem that I have is that as soon the ULF become effective it take over the sound of midbass horns and clearly vandalizes it. I am not one of those fools who would say that “horns are faster”. It has nothing to do with speed.

Anyhow, I did the measurements today and what I saw shocked me. Of the ULF sections has nice 20Hz at MF level then they have +12dB at 60Hz level. That explains everything but it also absolutely clearly indicates that the selected location must not be used for ULF. That sucks as I have no other space in the room that can accommodate 80sq feet of sealed enclosure without ruining the room feel. Well, I need to find another solution; this is what I will be concentrated upon.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 24
Post ID: 14937
Reply to: 14936
Ceiling subs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe one should't give up the attic-IB idea, the subs could fire downwards.

http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=8
11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 14938
Reply to: 14937
The infinite baffle shall be a very good solution.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 el`Ol wrote:
Maybe one should't give up the attic-IB idea, the subs could fire downwards.

http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=8

Great idea, thanks for reminding.  That still might be an option. I need to educate myself about the space requirement behind the wall. The infinite baffle is a very good solution but unfortunately I have no experience with it. Meanwhile I will try today the basement location of the ULF section.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 14939
Reply to: 14936
This morning I woke up horny
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Anyhow, I did the measurements today and what I saw shocked me. Of the ULF sections has nice 20Hz at MF level then they have +12dB at 60Hz level. That explains everything but it also absolutely clearly indicates that the selected location must not be used for ULF. That sucks as I have no other space in the room that can accommodate 80sq feet of sealed enclosure without ruining the room feel. Well, I need to find another solution; this is what I will be concentrated upon.
Not particularly most of the people do but becomes my mind was wrongly stimulated by the aim to find a new location for ULF channel ands it what I was intending to do this morning. I connected my text ULF devise- the Sunfire Cube subwoofer, the measurement instrument was sitting in the room since yesterday and I began to search the better location.
The biggest obstacle is 60Hz huge peak that I have if I inject 30Hz into the room. The peak is there and it mostly come from the rotunda addition to the room on the right, I do not know how to call it and I call it the equipment bay. It looks like the peak not there if the ULF is on the left side of the room but there is no space in there for large boxes.

I was trying to hide the ULF in different rooms, taking advantage that the house has open floor plan- it did not help – the 60Hz large peak cam each time when the ULD is coming from back. I was pouting the ULF in the basement and was firing it through the floor. It was not good. I lost 40dB-45dB at sub 30Hz and the overtones were all over the sub 150Hz.  Also, the damn house felt as it was about to collapse – those houses are not built to handle this LF stress…

Anyhow, I need to come up with something different. The infinite baffle on the left side of the room, opposite to the equipment bay would be interesting but I know little about infinite baffle. It would need to beef up the roof to do it and I am not doing it as experiment and without knowing the result.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 27
Post ID: 14944
Reply to: 14939
Dsp
fiogf49gjkf0d
OK, then better DSP than wrecking the house.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2010/8/16/subwoofer-room-correction-devices-audyssey-velodyne-dspeaker.html
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
el`Ol
Posts 225
Joined on 10-13-2007

Post #: 28
Post ID: 14947
Reply to: 14944
Parametric filters
fiogf49gjkf0d
And don't underestimate the Antimode with its parametric filters. There was a discussion with audio professionals about this topic on diyaudio.com.
When the filter Q is matching the Q of the room mode one also has a correction in time domain.
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 29
Post ID: 14951
Reply to: 14947
SMS 1, Act II
fiogf49gjkf0d
In this case, below 50Hz, I think el`Ol is right to suggest that you consider using DSP as a permanent solution. The SMS 1 is in theory the silver bullet... You just need to find out if you can live with it long-term.
 
Best way to find out...
 
Place your ULF drivers all together in an area of your choosing, then spend some real time with the SMS 1 dialing out the problem. Use the defeat function on the remote (I think its preset N° 6 by default) to decide how much destructive effect you are able to detect as a result of its intervention.
 
For now, you are using a bunch of 10" drivers (old mid-bass arrays) to produce sound below that of the 15" drivers in your mid-bass horns... It can be done, but it ain't natural and will certainly be calling on the SMS 1 to do more than if working with real ULF channels using drivers larger than those in the mid-bass horns. This means that when you evaluate the destructive effects while using the 10" drivers, you are likely witnessing a sort of worst case scenario.
 
Keep at it,

jd*


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 30
Post ID: 14952
Reply to: 14951
I think I have found the problem with my ULF
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
In this case, below 50Hz, I think el`Ol is right to suggest that you consider using DSP as a permanent solution. The SMS 1 is in theory the silver bullet... You just need to find out if you can live with it long-term.
 
Best way to find out...
 
Place your ULF drivers all together in an area of your choosing, then spend some real time with the SMS 1 dialing out the problem. Use the defeat function on the remote (I think its preset N° 6 by default) to decide how much destructive effect you are able to detect as a result of its intervention.
 
For now, you are using a bunch of 10" drivers (old mid-bass arrays) to produce sound below that of the 15" drivers in your mid-bass horns... It can be done, but it ain't natural and will certainly be calling on the SMS 1 to do more than if working with real ULF channels using drivers larger than those in the mid-bass horns. This means that when you evaluate the destructive effects while using the 10" drivers, you are likely witnessing a sort of worst case scenario.

I disagree that using a bunch of 10" drivers is some kind of compromised in way.  The six 10” drivers give me a surface of 2.3 18” drivers. Do you have anything against of a pair of 18” drivers the have no problem that a topical 18” do? Well, it is not so simple. An array of light 10” drivers do have own advantages and they also have own disadvantages against a large drivers.  I use foe now what I have enclosures for and my problem not is not with the fact that I use wrong topology of ULF channel.

Last night I have a lot of fun doing a lot of listening. I peaty much spent entire evening just spinning the Cds. I practically did not touch the Macondo – it was as very good and the Macondo configuration is locked.   I was juts playing music and sometime did some this with ULF, trying to see how it works. Macondo in the new room has some differences in performance, so it was interesting to see how it all goes. BTW, the room treatment is done in new kinky way and I absolutely love it sonically and esthetically.

Observing everything I concluded that I found the problem I had with my ULF channels. It is not about the topology or the woofers location but rather about my head - the wrong expectation that I have about the ULF. I need to re-think my ULF. The midbass horn is keep breaking-in and it sound better and better each week. The decay it has is like nothing else that I was accustomed; add to it the uniqueness of my sealing radiation. To supplement this 42Hz horn with properly performing ULF channels require some senses that I did not develop yet. I am getting to this realization but I am not there yet. The 42Hz horn is very self-sufficient and ULF is not necessary. Very few would believe that it is just 42Hz as it feels hugely low and hugely large. Also, it is properly calibrated and it does not flood the room with bass – it stop where it need to be stopped. Playing Jazz and Blues (I have some it) there is absolutely no need for ULF. Playing Classical I do feel a need for ULF and not, what the midbass is all done and operate as it is the new expectation for ULF arise.

To setting the ULF propel is a subject of self-moderation as I would like do not affect the midbass in any ways. I think it will be higher than 2 orders and I think it will be a transition slope. The DSP crossovering do help a lot but I do not plan to use any parametric EQ. the 30Hz with 4th order and on the slope, has no music under the bottom to EQ. It just adds a bit weight for that very bottom of the “ohhhh”, it is not auditable with 90% of music but it give some sort of “softness altogether”. This balance between softness and the weight is something that I need to learn to balance.
Meanwhile if I use the SMS then I need a second one and I do not know a save way to mix the channels. I would also need to learn how to open the SMS – at this point I was not able to do it.

The Cat



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 31
Post ID: 14953
Reply to: 14952
SMS distortion issue?
fiogf49gjkf0d
The following comment on the SMS distortion is at least worth considering:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfd-electronic-equalization-devices/6346-behringer-fbq2496-velodyne-sms-1-distortion.html


One thing is sure: either the user's measurements or the SMS has a serious issue.
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 32
Post ID: 14954
Reply to: 14953
At 30Hz of high order there are not truly tone” of “sound”
fiogf49gjkf0d
 scooter wrote:
One thing is sure: either the user's measurements or the SMS has a serious issue.

Yes, I read it and this is why I would like to open the SMS up and to see myself what it does. I still have no idea who to open it. I do not think that the DSP part in there is problematic. The output stages in those devises are usually superbly bad. There are many ways to fix it if it was open.  Sure I would love to be able to run it with no proxy DSp devise but I do not know how to get 4 order without it. I have 2 order in my power amp, so I need another 2 order on speaker level. This would male 65mH coil in series and 500uF cap to ground. The 65mH coil, even with iron core it will be a good Ohm or two – too much to have a good dumpling for ULF. I need to think about it. Again, the 30Hz of high order there are not truly tone” of “sound” but own life in there… I need to disconnect Macondo and to listed this 30Hz “own life in” from different filtration topologies to see what I am getting from it.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 33
Post ID: 14955
Reply to: 14954
DCX output stage mods
fiogf49gjkf0d
I don't know about the SMS but a few people have tried to clean up the Behringer DCX. I pulled all digital correction out of my system before investigating further but found some interesting mods to the output stage during investigation last year. Of course these mods can't address some of the fundamental issues of DSP but I thought they were worth documenting for anyone with a very specific need for DSP:


*French DIY parts or their assembly of output stage, clock module, power supply... (more pictures and docs in french): http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_US.asp


*French summary of some DCX problems (some solutions sold above) http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/index_en.php


*Netherlands parts (click DIY on left menu) http://www.pilghamaudio.com/index.php?page=dcx-active-upg


* Just 300 pages discussing these mods (I think the "oettle mod" is sold in the french site but don't remember) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/15943-behringer-dcx2496-digital-x-over-109.html http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/15943-behringer-dcx2496-digital-x-over-139.html


* Yahoo http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 34
Post ID: 14956
Reply to: 14955
Very small minority of the folks…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 scooter wrote:
I don't know about the SMS but a few people have tried to clean up the Behringer DCX. I pulled all digital correction out of my system before investigating further but found some interesting mods to the output stage during investigation last year. Of course these mods can't address some of the fundamental issues of DSP but I thought they were worth documenting for anyone with a very specific need for DSP:

*French DIY parts or their assembly of output stage, clock module, power supply... (more pictures and docs in french): http://www.selectronic.fr/dcx2496_US.asp

*French summary of some DCX problems (some solutions sold above) http://www.dcx2496.fr/en/index_en.php

*Netherlands parts (click DIY on left menu) http://www.pilghamaudio.com/index.php?page=dcx-active-upg

* Just 300 pages discussing these mods (I think the "oettle mod" is sold in the french site but don't remember) http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/15943-behringer-dcx2496-digital-x-over-109.html http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/15943-behringer-dcx2496-digital-x-over-139.html

* Yahoo http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DCX2496/
Scooter, I wonder how many people among those who propose those modifications do understand what they deal with when we are taking about a more or less properly reproduced sub 30Hz signal. It sounds like arrogant comment, not that I am not arrogant but still I do not think that the LF performance of devises was ever properly assessed. How many people use the sub 30Hz capable sections? How many people properly use them? I assure you that it would be very small minority of the folks…


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
scooter
Posts 161
Joined on 07-17-2008

Post #: 35
Post ID: 14957
Reply to: 14956
Exactly zero I suspect. . .
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:

Scooter, I wonder how many people among those who propose those modifications do understand what they deal with when we are taking about a more or less properly reproduced sub 30Hz signal. It sounds like arrogant comment, not that I am not arrogant but still I do not think that the LF performance of devises was ever properly assessed. How many people use the sub 30Hz capable sections? How many people properly use them? I assure you that it would be very small minority of the folks…


I don't think the comment is arrogant at all and would assume that exactly zero people doing these modifications have reasonable notions of ULF. Moving up the fq ladder, I also would be concerned that most of these people seem to be running the DCX at full-range.

That said, the stock DCX has so many problems out of the gate that a DCX w/ an improved output stage likely performs better and the french have what appear to be an OK and easy to plug in solution for a few of the major issues. Of course, the problem is that the modified DCX can be no better than far from optimal.

You seem to be stuck with DSP for ULF, so this is one of the options you are stuck with unless you decide to jump into the DIY movement.
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 14958
Reply to: 14956
DSP vs. Music vs. HT
fiogf49gjkf0d
True enough, Romy, most marketing and "advances" in ULF are aimed squarely at the HT "Market" these days, and this is the source of some of the buzz we are referred to.  However, there is also the "Pro" sound "Market", such as it is.  This includes sound reinforcement and the recording industry, and some of these folks actually pay some conscious attention to musical values.

I didn't look it up to post a link back to it, but DSP for ULF was discussed here fairly recently in the context of your present new house musical ULF needs, and Bud P actually gave very specific advice and referrals about DSP output (mods) at that time.  I mention it again since interest on the subject appears to be starting up again without the benefit of that very interesting thread.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jessie.dazzle


Paris, France
Posts 456
Joined on 04-23-2006

Post #: 37
Post ID: 14959
Reply to: 14953
10" array; how low? & SMS-1 distortion
fiogf49gjkf0d
Regarding combined driver diaphragm area for ULF:  

Romy wrote:
 
"...I disagree that using a bunch of 10" drivers is some kind of compromised in way. The six 10” drivers give me a surface of 2.3 18” drivers..." 
 
I recognize the relative and important advantages to be had when using smaller drivers in multiples instead of a single pair of larger drivers. However, moving down in frequency, there is a point where it no longer makes sense... It depends how low you are asking them to go.

You are not asking of your arrays anything so extreme, but for purposes of illustration, look at the extreme: 97 tweeters might also give you the surface area of 2 x 18" drivers, but would you expect to get LF from them?

Below a certain frequency the advantages become a handicap. At that point (if you were using its EQ capabilities), the SMS -1 would start to step in... Whether you reach that point with your 10" arrays depends on how low you are asking them to go, and whether that entails a compromise or not depends on how destructive the SMS-1 might be. I don't know where that point is, but I'd guess at around 30Hz a pair of 18" drivers starts to make more sense.
 
 
SMS-1 Distortion & Bottom end roll-off:

Yes, this little issue caused all the AV boyz to panic and the value of the SMS-1 to plummet; they can now be had for under $400. 
 
From what I remember, the distortion problem was the result of the device not being able to digest the higher output voltages typical of high-end home theater oriented "receivers"; a condition caused by the software the SMS-1 ran at the time.
 
In late 2007, the distortion issue was addressed by firmware update 2.1.3... There has since been one more update.
 
Do a search today on "SMS-1 Distortion" "THD" and you'll find mostly postings that date from the pre firmware 2.1.3 period.
 
Also resolved was the issue regarding the quicker-than-desired roll off at the bottom end (the "sub-sonic filter").
 
Here are the release notes from Velodyne dating from November 2007, when they first acknowledged the problems: 
 
Subwoofer Management System (SMS-1) Release 2.1.3

Release Notes

This document discusses the latest release of Velodyne’s Subwoofer Management System (SMS) firmware – release 2.1.3. This firmware addresses two issues related to the low frequency management of the SMS. First, it allows the subsonic filter to be set low enough that the only remaining rolloff in the low frequency is restricted only by the hardware, and secondly, corrects some distortion that previous versions of the firmware introduced to the audio spectrum.

Figure 1: SMS-1 Frequency Response

Please refer to Figure one. This graph shows actual output from the SMS-1 with the subsonic filter set to 5 Hz. The various curves shown reflect the subsonic filter as set to 6, 12, 18, 24, and 30 dB/octave -- the steeper the slope, the higher the subsonic slope setting. As you can see, the actual point at which the curves converge is 5 Hz, and at 5 Hz, the audio frequency is down about 5 dB. The typical 3 dB down point is about 8 Hz. This point is a limitation in the hardware and the low frequency response of the SMS cannot be extended any further without changing components in the hardware. In release 2.1.3 the subsonic filter can be set as low as 1 Hz., but any setting below 5 Hz. has negligible effect on the frequency response.
 
SMS-1 Revised low end response 01.JPG

Note that the low-pass crossover in this example is set to the default of 80 Hz and 24 dB/octave.

Some users of the SMS measured the low frequency performance and discovered that the SMS was adding some distortion to the lowest frequencies. Most users did not notice this added distortion due to the low frequencies affected. The distortion was inadvertently introduced as the frequency processing software, which was based on Digital Drive subwoofers, was rewritten for the SMS. The 2.1.3 firmware corrects this problem.

There was some confusion that this distortion was also present in the DD series. This is not and was never true – the distortion was introduced in the SMS only, and has now been remedied.

If you have any questions on this information, please contact Velodyne customer service at techhelp@velodyne.com."

Make sure you've got the latest firmware update; requires a USB to RS232 cable or adaptor + USB cable.
http://www.diytrade.com/china/4/products/2031651/USB-RS232.html

jd*

Technical issue with the Goodsoundclub site: 
Posting with bold or colored text will only "stick" after third edit.


How to short-circuit evolution: Enshrine mediocrity.
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 38
Post ID: 14961
Reply to: 14959
Interesting: 10” vs. 15”
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Below a certain frequency the advantages become a handicap. At that point (if you were using its EQ capabilities), the SMS -1 would start to step in... Whether you reach that point with your 10" arrays depends on how low you are asking them to go, and whether that entails a compromise or not depends on how destructive the SMS-1 might be. I don't know where that point is, but I'd guess at around 30Hz a pair of 18" drivers starts to make more sense.

Possible. I am not pleased that 10” driver are spared in space and ULF do not radiated from single point. In case I use an array it is a great advantage but in my case I do not use array and a large radiation souse is not good in my view.  I do have the 18" and 24” drivers  but for now I do not use them.
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Do a search today on "SMS-1 Distortion" "THD" and you'll find mostly postings that date from the pre firmware 2.1.3 period.

I have 2.1.4. 
 jessie.dazzle wrote:
Technical issue with the Goodsoundclub site: 
Posting with bold or colored text will only "stick" after third edit. 

I have fixed it. I had it to strip all MS Word formatting during the initial posts. Editing does not strip MS Word formatting. You fill that it happen “after third edit” because I cash the posts/threads content for 20min to speed up the site loading.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-15-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,157
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 39
Post ID: 14962
Reply to: 14961
Multiples of the Same Rising Response Curve?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Jessie makes an interesting point with the idea of trying to get ULF from 97 X 2" drivers.  Very few small drivers are "optimized" to produce ULF in the first place, and so far the small-ish, BIG X-MAX drivers that are intended for "bass" have not been musically convincing.

Reflecting, if the big, expensive "audiophile" speakers falter at musical LF it is not always the quantity but rather the quality thereof that ultimately disappoints and offends.  Who knows if 10" drivers might somehow "work"  for ULF under certain unheard of circumstances?  Meanwhile, various and sundry 10" drivers have had decades to prove themselves as the Class A Recommended audiophile system default "woofer".  And sure enough, some of the expensive audiophile speakers actually wind up to "measure flat" (at least how/where they are tested...).  But, obviously, they must be doing something wrong, and who can put up with the audiophile "fast and tight" bass systems, in the first place?

It has to mean something when it is necessary to waste so much driver output to get "LF" from smaller drivers.  I'd like to know what are the smaller drivers putting out that needs to get wasted, in the first place?  In the case of the "widerange" 10" drivers in question, I wonder if it is the "best", optimal part of their output that gets scrubbed?

Best regards,
Paul S
11-16-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,544
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 40
Post ID: 14963
Reply to: 14961
The crisis of perception.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I pretty much know what I need to do – I need to go for shaper filter built in my power amp. The second order I have no is too impactful to midbass, so I need to do for 2th order or perhaps for 4th and try to integrate it.  Whatever it will be I think the passive line-level, no-capacitance filters in the power amp will be better than anything else with active stages.

Still, the I think the biggest problem is not the topology or implementation but the ambiguity of perception. Even myself, with my self-accused super-evolved listening intelligence, feel that I am kind of at last and do not know how to evaluate the quality of my ULF.
At sub 30Hz and high order filter there is no sound but rather the irrelevant tails of harmonics tails. To listen just them is not useful and they need to be heard only in context of rest of music. I have no problem to do it and I know what music to play and what to listen for. However, I am not sure if I have a clear picture what would be my “Imaginary Truth” in the ULF sound.

A few days ago an audio friend of my was experimenting with his new tweeter and told me how wonderfully his new tweeter reproduces metallic qualities of triangles and cymbals. I suggested that it was absolutely wrong criterion of judgment as metallic qualities of cymbals have no degrees of quality that our mind can acknowledge.  It sound metallic but there are no shades of being metallic, not mention that in metallisism of cymbals is greatly depending by the recording techniques. In other worlds there is no cultural or musical reference upon the depth of being metallic.
The very same feeling, only on the opposite side of spectra I have about my ULF. Adding a bit presence of weight under 30Hz do a positive impact to sound but I am not sure that I can clearly feel a difference between good ULF and bad ULF, at least in my implementation. Sure if it were some kind of “openly bad ULF”, like posted sound or too much amplitude, then I get it. However, if the ULF does not do any particular bad things then the difference in bad ULF and good ULF is much more tolerable and to discriminate the thing is much more difficult.

It might be the case that all ULF that I getting in my room are bad ULF. Very possible and I more and more incline to feel this way. I never heard from playback, any playback, the ULF done in a way I want and like so I do not know what topology can deliver it. I have my vision how I would like ULF to be but I did not experience it in audio, so in a way I shoot blindly to a black Cat in a dark room. With all my clear vision how I would like my ULF to sound I have absolutely no association between this “perfect” imaginary sound  of mine and the sound I am getting from my current ULF. So, I might get some “improvement” but it will not be the sound that I want.

Perhaps, Jessie is right about large woofers. Perhaps my small drivers arrays not used as arrays do smear the leading edge of the pressure front and give to me that “overly soft” ULF, overly saturated with second harmonics. I don’t know. To put my large woofers into the game and evaluate the ULF from them would require a construction of a large sealed box but I do not feel now to do it – I just have a few weeks none-dusty live and I like it. If someone from New England have a large sealed ULF section with resonance in 20s Hz and willing to demonstrate it to me then feel free to invite me. I would bring my power amp ….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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