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02-07-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Alex Yakovlev
NJ, US
Posts 45
Joined on 10-06-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 3691
Reply to: 3691
Low output MC?
For quite some time I've been haunted by compatibility between cartridges and tonearms. I've read pretty much everything available out there, but it looks like most of the rules are either silly, or plain incorrect. I had decent results with few cartridge/tonearm combinations, but nothing to write home about, really.
My current arm is SME M2-9, I have few cartridges that I am using with it on and off. So the question is - what are decent cartridges that are known to work well with this arm?
Thank you.
02-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 2
Post ID: 3692
Reply to: 3691
It is all the Framer-like fantasies....

When companies begin to produce crap (most of the today arms) then it is the job of various marketing whores, like Michael Fremer and the similar, to invert a theory that would justify the poor sonic results or to explain to the deaf audio-cretins out there that “it is how it should be”.

I do know, Alex, the way how you approach the entire subject is very alien to me, at least I absolutely do not think in this way. An arm should be an arm and a cartridge should be a cartridge. A cartridge should have own sound and it is fine. The arm should not be in the picture at all and should not be even considered from sonic perspective at all (because it should do what it need to do and it is all)

I know a lot of people out there would degree with me but they are cluelessly jaded. The Morons year over year were “educated” that there is some kind of compatibility between arm’s effective mass and cartridge’s compliance. Sure, that compatibility and that logic dose make sense but ONLY in context of initially crappy arms and initially crappy cartridges. When the Audio industry move toward the under-massed tonearms and overly light cartridges then the Propaganda Morons begin to stress the bogus notion of cartridge/arm interface. To “match” cartridge/arm is very useful in order to achieve that strategically-contemporary “stiff sound”, the sound that is  particularly benefited by the contemporary ported enclosures. I recognize is a part of the larger picture:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3520

Anyhow, the truth, at least the truth as I agree to perceive it, is that a tonearm should undependably “to sound well”, regardless of anything else. That “abstract” state of proper sound usually takes please with heavy arm of effective mass of 25-40g, or 2-3 times heavier then the most of the today’s arms (let not even to go into the subject of horizontal effective mass).  From there you put into a properly sound arm  your uniquely sounding cartridge and it is it. The compliance of cartridge does not exist. I mean all cartages have more or less the same compliance and all of them need 2-3 times heavier arm’s driving mass then the stupid circulation of resonant frequency suggests. (Fs = 1000/[6.28*square root (M*C)]).  There are some exceptions – but the supper stiff or supper soft cartridge should be trashed and not to be used to begin with.

The cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Alex Yakovlev
NJ, US
Posts 45
Joined on 10-06-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 3695
Reply to: 3692
if I understood correctly...
Romy, so if I understood you correctly I should be able to use any decent cartridge on this arm, just as long as I add enough weight to it? Which cartridges can I look at (I don't really have a bidget at this point)?
02-08-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 3696
Reply to: 3695
I do not know what you understand but….

…. it is well known that do not consult on purchasing decisions, just have no interests and no motivations even to think about it. Also, frankly speaking I sick and tired to hear those questions: what speakers to buy, what amplifiers to buy, what cartridge to buy, what records cleaner to buy … I do not mean to be rude but who cares what you buy? I do not think even you care….

Anyhow, regardless which cartridge you decided to use, be advised that SME M2 arm is not exactly fits my description of “neutral” and “properly made” arms. It rather is on the side of many contemporary “expedited” arms. This particular arms has in addition it’s own idiosyncrasies….… BTW, I am not saying it is bad arm. I just say that it is not as neutral as it should be….

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 5
Post ID: 4115
Reply to: 3696
Neutrality
This really doesn't bother me. I am a professional violinist. When I play in Avery Fischer Hall my instrument sounds quit different than when I play it at home and again different still when I play it in Carnegie Hall. Instead of neutrality, perhaps one should think of its musicality. On cartridges... I changed up a Grado Sonata for a Benz Ebony, and the difference was absolutely stunning.
03-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,051
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 6
Post ID: 4117
Reply to: 4115
"Musical" versus "accurate" (again...)

I would think that one would opt at least for a cartridge able to distinguish between different violins (well) recorded in different spaces.  Although aural memory itself remains suspect, still one does want to entertain an illusion based on one's ability to "recognize" a given performance based on certain aural cues and, perhaps and/or to a point, the more cues the better.

OTOH, one never knows if or rather when certain "flaws" in playback may begin to strain credibility, clouding or shattering the illusion.

I enjoyed the "musicality of the Sonata until its sibilance and subsonic hijinks ruined it for me.

So few shared ways to describe sound; can you say what you hear/like/prefer from the Benz?

My present Ortofon MC 3000 II acts/sounds much like the master tape an LP is cut from, and its "neutrality" has pleased me; but it is also a trifle removed from the event, and if I could remedy this, I would, as it has finally started to bother me.

Meanwhile, who wants details at the expense of "connectedness"?

Who wants "vitality" or "immediacy" with no orientation or without respect to pitch, timbre, weight and scale?

It seems like most "high-end" cartridges are based on drama, per se, via proprietary manipulation/highlighting of certain aspects of the recorded fare, which in turn "brings home" a particular sense of a performance.

The annoying thing is that one's speakers and one's cartridge will always be "colored" and/or will in various ways effect their own verisons of recorded music, so it's always a matter of picking one's poison and then trying to integrate the parts into a whole that against all odds produces something one finds musically meaningful.

I recently read for the first time Romy's remark to the effect that there is absolutely no difference between one's demands of live versus recorded music.  So true.  Of course this does not mean - at all - that one's playback ever "sounds the same" as the original live performance...

Best regards,
Paul S

03-31-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 7
Post ID: 4119
Reply to: 4117
Benz Ebony
The dramatic differences I heard when I swapped out the Grado for the Ebony is as follows: The Grado had a decidedly "tannish" color that was accompanied by a sandy texture which filled in the "spaces" between the instruments. I should say that I was quite satisfied with the Grado until I installed the Ebony. The Benz opened up the sound stage in depth, height, and width. The Ebony was WAY more quiet - the dynamic contrasts were dramatically opened up. I didn't realize that the Grado was "humming" so very slightly, but the silence of the Benz certainly was welcomed.
04-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 8
Post ID: 4149
Reply to: 4119
..and another thing

The New Jersey Symphony purchased a number of high priced instruments - Strads, Guanaris, etc. in what they called "The Golden Collection".  They paid way too much money for the collection, but thought that the better sound and the "Mystique" of all those multi-million dollar instruments would bring in ticket sales like never before.  The reality of it is that the orchestra sounded exactly the same as they did before.  No one I spoke to could tell the difference between the previous insruments played and the high priced spread. I say there is no such thing as "correctness"..just various levels of "betterness".  Clearly the Benz is better than the Grado to these ears, and anyone who has knowledge of my system before and after the Benz swapout.  You pays yo money and gets your pleasure.  For me, as I described the cartridge is at many levels, better in many ways than the Grado.  I also have the Dynavector DRT XV1S.  My tonearm is a JMW Memorial VPI Signature which has interchangeable arm wands.  I can easily swap arms into a perfect setup.  In some ways the Dynavector is better intellectually than the Ebony, but for some reason, I find myself listening to the Benz more.  Go figure...

04-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 9
Post ID: 4150
Reply to: 4149
The Absolute Tone Impotency and New Jersey Symphony

 Stringreen wrote:
The New Jersey Symphony purchased a number of high priced instruments - Strads, Guanaris, etc. in what they called "The Golden Collection".  They paid way too much money for the collection, but thought that the better sound and the "Mystique" of all those multi-million dollar instruments would bring in ticket sales like never before.  The reality of it is that the orchestra sounded exactly the same as they did before.  No one I spoke to could tell the difference between the previous insruments played and the high priced spread. I say there is no such thing as "correctness"..just various levels of "betterness".  Clearly the Benz is better than the Grado to these ears, and anyone who has knowledge of my system before and after the Benz swapout.  You pays yo money and gets your pleasure.  For me, as I described the cartridge is at many levels, better in many ways than the Grado.  I also have the Dynavector DRT XV1S.  My tonearm is a JMW Memorial VPI Signature which has interchangeable arm wands.  I can easily swap arms into a perfect setup.  In some ways the Dynavector is better intellectually than the Ebony, but for some reason, I find myself listening to the Benz more.  Go figure...
Stringreen,

I do not know why you say “Go figure” as the conclusions are very obvious and very much on surface.

Some active elements of playback have something that I usually call the “absolute tone”.  I covered this subject in very many posts on my site:

(For instance here: http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=2784 )

Here is juts a quote from the mentioned post:

“The “absolute tone” is the absolute maximum of tonal complexity that a playback is capable to reproduces. It is like a violin. If we take for instance Amatis, Stradivaris or Guarneris then they might indicate a quality of “absolute tone”. It does not necessary mean that they under all conditions have better tone than some other best violins but under good conditions they are capable to throw insultingly high (or interesting) tonal quality that might not be reached by “other” violins (particularly in ambient conditions). This absolute maximin amplitude of the “tonal sophistication” is not reachable by some "other" instruments, no mater what you do to them and how skillful players might be. The very same is with loudspeakers. They all have their “absolute tone” limitations. The audio people mostly do not consider them because the 99% of loudspeakers are “absolute tone” impotent. We do not really know where the “absolute tone capacity” derives from and audio engineers never cared to answer this question. Perhaps it is in materials or in design principles but I feel it rather in a sense of recognition and assessing of results – something that never was research seriously in audio.”

The key in there is the message: under special circumstances to produce tonal quality that might not be reached by others violins at the best circumstances. This is what I call “absolute tone” – or the amplitude of own maximum. Sure, each cartridge has own “absolute tone”, amplifiers do not have it – cartridges, drivers and orchestras do. Grado are good cartridges but their “absolute tone” is always was very simple. Evan at the best conditions Grado, doing wonderfully in hi-fi terms have that “absolute tone impotency” that sets all Grado efforts to the…. sound of the New Jersey Symphony. Grado is perfectly capable to convert tone of Prague Philharmonic into the tone of Cleveland Symphony and the sound of the old Budapest Quartet or the Hollywood Quartet into the Sound as a band for Berkley School of Music…..

Well, I do not know the New Jersey Symphony well, I heard a few recordings and it was quite bad, including “absolute tonally”. I generally very welcome a news that they got the "The Golden Collection" – it might not effect their sound as now (tone is not juts the quality of the instrument as you know) but in the long run, perhaps a generation from now it this collection of the better instruments might lead to better sound, or at least what we all hope…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 10
Post ID: 4154
Reply to: 4150
More of the same..
Unfortuanately, the NJ Symphony "Golden Collection" is up for sale.  The orchestra paid so much for the collection, they can not pay off the debt.  They are looking for high rollers who can buy the instruments,  but permit the orchestra to perform on them.  That makes sense since a violin for instance will go "stale" and not play well if not constantly played. I liken it to cables that have to be broken in to perform their best.  I have played on at least 2 Strads, and a Guanari.  The big draw for me was that the Strads had more power and was able to play loud without strain, easier than the Guanari.  This effect is valuable as a soloist. since concertos especially have to be heard over the 75 or so musicians of the orcherstra playing away. I, myself liked the sound of the Guanari since it seemed to be a more complete instruments, although the power of the Strad was certainly inviting.  My opionion is that there is no  absolute tone - just as there isn't an absolute sound.  I personally am especially sensitive to dynamics - big and small.  I therefore choose a high power amp and speakers that can accomodate that for my personal preferences.  My friend has an equally expensive stereo system  built on low wattage tubes. I don't much care for his system, but his satisfies him....he finds fault with my system, with which I like very much.  Some people prefer Mercedes, some people buy BMW's...  You open your check book and vote.
04-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 4156
Reply to: 4154
Absolute Tone and dynamics vs. amplification power.

 Stringreen wrote:
My opionion is that there is no absolute tone - just as there isn't an absolute sound.
I disagree. I do not know how about the absolute sound – it would be a difficult subject but “Absolute Tone” is not only ease be a very useful tern. The key is do not understand the “Absolute Tone” as an absolute tone. It is not just two words but own completed phrase with own meaning that does not directly derives from the words is made from (the same as the “Absolute Polarity”). I have no problem to argue this point but probably not in context of this thread. I would say only in context of this thread that all many MC cartridges have distinctive distinction in their Absolute Tone capacity…
 Stringreen wrote:
  I personally am especially sensitive to dynamics - big and small.  I therefore choose a high power amp and speakers that can accomodate that for my personal preferences.  My friend has an equally expensive stereo system  built on low wattage tubes. I don't much care for his system, but his satisfies him....he finds fault with my system, with which I like very much.  Some people prefer Mercedes, some people buy BMW's...  You open your check book and vote.
Stringreen, sorry to break you a bad news but your sensitivity to dynamics has absolutely nothing to do with power of your amplification. High power amplification has no high dynamic range; in fact there are a lot of very objective reasons why high power amp has less dynamic capacity. The example with your low wattage tubes friend is juts a private example of a typical case of unsuccessful implementation not to mention that he most likely has no speakers to drive with low wattage tubes. Anyhow, the point is that high power amp is not the lead to satisfy sensitive in dynamics.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,051
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 12
Post ID: 4157
Reply to: 4154
LO MC, Tone and Dynamics
Stringreen, what an interesting series of posts.  I generally enjoy musicians' takes on hi-fi, especially as these relate to sound (versus music).  In all performances there are so many things to listen for and to.  What I have most enjoyed from LO MCs is the "transparancy", dynamics and detail they can supply to the mix, including, to my ears, more complete harmonic structure than I hear from MM or MI.  You are sensitive to tempi and I am sensitive to pitch and timbre.  It may be that the "Absolute Tone" necessarily "includes" both.
 
One thing that only seems odd in the context of hi-fi is that a live performance is just that no matter how poor, even in terms of "acoustics".  So, does this mean that the poor live performance necessarily has the "Absolute Tone"?  Even so, it might be something that is of little or no interest to me.

One trick when tuning a hi-fi is to keep everything so "ready" that the system becomes/is transparent to expression.  I have found it easier to get this from LO MC (or the right tape...) than other sources.  Also, SET [despite its power limitations?] can be made to stay very "ready", as long as the speakers are suitably matched to the amp.  I am a little puzzled that you associate power (and may I presume mid-efficiency speakers?) with dynamics, except peak SPL, of course.

To close, I am not really sure how or why, but I hear LO MC and SET as rather more "dynamic" - at least within their limits - than MM and/or hi-power set-ups, which always seem somehow constipated no matter how much absolute power they pack.  I admit that I lost interest in continuing to try this stuff a few years back, but I am in no way stuck on LO MC, HE or SET for any reason other than results, which to my ears (mind) absolutely include more-"realistic"/satisfying dynamics (within their limits).

Best regards,
Paul S

PS: Isn't it glorious to hear great performances via great instruments?
04-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 13
Post ID: 4165
Reply to: 4156
News Not Broken
Indeed I do know that high wattage does not necessarily mean that accurate dynamic shadings are successfully reproduced, however, I will tell you that my high power amps do the job well, and his tubes do not.  Perhaps if he used a horn speaker, he too would get closer to what I call "the truth".  A fault in my system is that the these dynamics become truthful only when the volume is increased to a particular loudness level...not loud mind you, but certainly not background music level.  This volume level is not a function of the volume control which at the "reality level" points to 7 o clock, 9 o clock, 1 o clock depending on the source feeding the preamp.  Also, I am not talking of canon shots, thunder, or A-bomb explosions...  I want to hear if the violinist uses a martele bow stroke in the 3rd measure of the Bach unaccompanied sonata..(martele bow strokes put a slight edge to the begginng of the tone..the player gets this effect by digging in on the string and releasing the pressure at just the right moment), I want to hear the drummers rim shot amidst the blaring voice and electric guitars of U2, I want to hear the tonguing of Paul Desmond's sax on Take Five.  This is important to the "reality effect".  Regarding your last thought about the wonderful instruments .....I would rather hear a wonderful performance on a supermarket instrument than a good performance on a Strad.  This brings up what a wonderful performance is....   Check out 2 Tchaikovsky violin concerts...  Heifitz and  Bell.  What touches your soul??
04-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 4168
Reply to: 4165
About everything except MC cartridges...

 Stringreen wrote:
Indeed I do know that high wattage does not necessarily mean that accurate dynamic shadings are successfully reproduced, however, I will tell you that my high power amps do the job well, and his tubes do not. ??

It has to do only with the specifics of your given loudspeakers. Some loudspeakers are like a black hole for dynamics as they compress hugely until you drive them with a low of power. Once again, it is not the benefit of “more power” but the deficiency of the acoustic systems. There are a lot of reasons why.
 Stringreen wrote:
A fault in my system is that the these dynamics become truthful only when the volume is increased to a particular loudness level...not loud mind you, but certainly not background music level.  This volume level is not a function of the volume control which at the "reality level" points to 7 o clock, 9 o clock, 1 o clock depending on the source feeding the preamp.  Also, I am not talking of canon shots, thunder, or A-bomb explosions...  ??

You not suppose to explain about the canon shots as etc. Anyhow, it is very common problem when dynamic range collapses with volume. I would be a different there to discuss it but two the most common reasons is a use of digital volume controls and  use insufficient driver stages.
 Stringreen wrote:
Regarding your last thought about the wonderful instruments .....I would rather hear a wonderful performance on a supermarket instrument than a good performance on a Strad.  This brings up what a wonderful performance is....   Check out 2 Tchaikovsky violin concerts...  Heifitz and  Bell.  What touches your soul?? ??

And it is exactly why I do not like ether Heifitz or Bell (partially Heifetz) and prefer Tossy Spivakovsky. Tossy played his 1721 Strad - it is not one of the greatest Strads the  “mediocre” one, however he with his "touch" made the Strad for this concert to sound with a perfect (and for my point of view essential) for this work tone: not too “victoriously-celebrative” but at the same time not too “tragical” .

If you do not know this performance you might find my comments at:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=408#408

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,051
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 15
Post ID: 4169
Reply to: 4165
Volume versus detail
It is probably fodder for another thread, but I have also pondered the volume versus detail issue.  I have in the past owned systems, and I have heard many systems, that rendered a lot of nuance and detail at low-ish volume settings.  None of these systems satisfied me for very long, and some drove me right oput of the room immediately.  My present system seems to come alive at pretty close to live volume levels, although I have not really wrung it out with symphonic fare yet, apart from a rollicking session with the Sheffield/Leinsdorf/Wagner sampler.

But it may be fairly noted in this thread that LO MCs are the detail champs, for better or for worse, and it MAY be that it is easier with LO MC to "set" one's preferred "detail level" to a desired playback volume, regardless of whether that closely corresponds to the original performance/recorded perspective.  Meanwhile, I opted some time ago for a more-or-less "neutral" perspective, so I am also more-or-less at the mercy of the recording, including its perspective/rendering of detail.  This is fine with lighter material, but it may also make a case for multiple arms/cartridges, at least, in order to get more content from large scale works that would be unbearable at live volume and/or from the recorded perspective.

Re: performance vs. instrument, it's like Mick Jagger said, "It's the singer, not the song."

Last Sunday I played Connoisseur Society's 1966 Manitas de Plata session, so an example of what we are talking about is still very fresh in my mind.  I will dig out the Bell and Heifitz anon.

Best regards,
Paul S
04-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 16
Post ID: 4173
Reply to: 4169
Tchaikovsky
Do you mean Vladamir Spivakov???
04-06-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 17
Post ID: 4174
Reply to: 4173
Tchaikovsky Part 2
Never mind - I found it...
04-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 18
Post ID: 4209
Reply to: 4168
Dynamics
...just a note on the dynamics question...   I'm using an Ayre K1xe preamp which has a volume controle hand made at Ayre using individually soldered resisters. (Ayre tells me that that control is a large part of the cost of the whole preamp) In effect, each setting of the volume control is a seperate circuit...  each click is either a 3 or 1 db difference from its neighbor depending on the rotation of the (clunky) volume control..from off to about 9 o clock are the larger settings.  Im still looking for the Spivokovsky.  Do you have a source?
04-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Stringreen
New York, United States
Posts 16
Joined on 03-23-2007

Post #: 19
Post ID: 4210
Reply to: 3692
Arms to Arms
so tell me...  does that mean that a highly damped arm will function in the manner of a "to sound well" arm?
04-15-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,283
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 20
Post ID: 4216
Reply to: 4209
Finding Tossy...
Well it hard to find for whatever reasons. “Bescal” released it but I would not trust then and would look for the original Everest release. I do not know who sell CD and I have seen ay used market they goes for stupid prices. Still, you might fish them on eBay sometimes for little money or if you do LPs then the records of the performance are always there for around $5. I own at lest a dozen of different LP pressings with Italian and Spanish being the best as Radio Shake pressings (yep!) being the worst. If you do not do analog and really would like to hear Tossy then I might EACed it and upload it on my sever in uncompressed WAV 16/44 format or I can send you a CD copy..


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  »  New  SME M2-12 tonearm..  M2-12R specs...  Analog Playback Forum     10  90030  07-26-2004
  »  New  SME M2..  Re: SME M2...  Analog Playback Forum     1  12984  08-09-2005
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  306988  01-30-2006
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