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07-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 1
Post ID: 19761
Reply to: 19761
Why Horn loaded systems?!
fiogf49gjkf0d
starting off I want to Thank Romy for hosting this forum Lots of information to think on...we as some people here have much in common
 some not so much hense the post

I attend many live un-amplified operas, college band, and symphonic music geners I also have taken part in recording some of these events
so i have some knowledge and understanding of what real music sounds like.... I call this musical IQ some people have it and some just dont
(reviewers) etc..my point in all this I see romy and others  talk a lot about music in musical ways which is very good as I have really grown tired of your typical
audiophool who knows nothing about music...... Idiots! 

but this is where we part ways....Horn systems do not play music! there is no horn system that even resembles real music maybe
good for crap rock studio shit or PA use...idiots etc.. IMO


I have listened to several home built horn systems and a few commercial systems they all suck ...they all have non musical distortion! in a not good way!!
so what gives? am i missing something are you all deaf too?

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

07-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 137
Joined on 10-17-2010

Post #: 2
Post ID: 19762
Reply to: 19761
Horn loaded until what frequencies
fiogf49gjkf0d
No system ever resembles live music.  imho.  But you can get pretty close.


Can you describe or share a pic of the horrid horns systems you have listened to?

I also hate most badly designed "horn" systems too.

Usually most "Horn" systems have a 15" woofer crossing over to a little horn loaded by a compression driver at around 1 khz.
The horn turns out to be shouty and the woofer punchy and not really mix in toghether. 
If this is your experience with horns,  I would agree.

If you have lisitened to a Back loaded horn... I would agree with you too.

Have you heard a system with a Front loaded horn going down to at least 150 hz? 
Not made out of plastic?

You would need at least a 4 way system.
07-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 3
Post ID: 19763
Reply to: 19762
Ok well
fiogf49gjkf0d
there is one system that resembles what live music sounds like and its not a horn! Smile

To be honest I really have no idea of what topology these horns were setup like... all i have evaluated is there sound
I like to go into something without any prejustice  most were compression drivers for mid/high with either direct or large horn for the lower freq's

I always liked the looks of horn systems but thats where it alway ended..and i cant get with that!
07-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 4
Post ID: 19764
Reply to: 19761
…and why do you worry?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ShuffleSk8Ter wrote:
starting off I want to Thank Romy for hosting this forum Lots of information to think on...we as some people here have much in common some not so much hense the post

I attend many live un-amplified operas, college band, and symphonic music geners I also have taken part in recording some of these events
so i have some knowledge and understanding of what real music sounds like.... I call this musical IQ some people have it and some just dont
(reviewers) etc..my point in all this I see romy and others  talk a lot about music in musical ways which is very good as I have really grown tired of your typical audiophool who knows nothing about music...... Idiots! 

but this is where we part ways....Horn systems do not play music! there is no horn system that even resembles real music maybe
good for crap rock studio shit or PA use...idiots etc.. IMO


I have listened to several home built horn systems and a few commercial systems they all suck ...they all have non musical distortion! in a not good way!! so what gives? am i missing something are you all deaf too?


Lawrence,  am not surprised that you were disappointed listening a “several home built horn systems and a few commercial systems.”  Most horn-loaded installations are not good at all and most of audio people who do not deal with horns in more or less evolved fashion do not know that horn-loading might sound different if done properly.

I am bit at lost when you ask “why horn loaded systems?!” Are you asking why I am using horns or why you do not use horns? I do not know why you do not and I do not insist that you do.  You do not see me making sweeping statement like you do: “horn system that even resembles real music”. I perfectly admit that non-horn system might sound fine and I have heard them.  It happens that I use horns and it happens that I know how to get from them the sound I need. Do I need to ask your approval, consent or blessing?

Generally any technology or topology has own advantages and disadvantages. Horns do have many advantages and I very much like to capitalize on them. I can’t argue with your limited exposure nor educate you if you have no interest.  If you do not like horns then it is perfectly fine – juts do not use them. If you have other means the get the sound that with your musical IQ you find satisfactory then it is good for you and I do not mind if you educate me.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-30-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 19765
Reply to: 19763
Ok, good for you…
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ShuffleSk8Ter wrote:
there is one system that resembles what live music sounds like and its not a horn!

To be honest I really have no idea of what topology these horns were setup like... all i have evaluated is there sound
I like to go into something without any prejustice  most were compression drivers for mid/high with either direct or large horn for the lower freq's

I always liked the looks of horn systems but thats where it alway ended..and i cant get with that!
How could you make a judgment that “no horn system that even resembles real music” if you not able to understand what you heard. It is like striking own testacies with hammer and then to conclude that any sex sucks.
 
In case or horns you did not evaluated sound but you evaluated the given output of many bad decisions the given horns boulders made. When you felt that you have heard “one system that resembles what live music” it was not because “they were not horns” but because it was a system that were done with more attention to sound and was more or less free from bad decision for own topology. That was it.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 6
Post ID: 19766
Reply to: 19765
Huh?
fiogf49gjkf0d
please don't misinterpret what i write when i say up i mean up thank you Smile

now ever place i been to listen to the horn systems claims  theirs is the best! etc.. best crossover driver etc..and ever
time I leave very disappointing...

one of the main serious issues  horn speakers ANY TYPE ....horn loaded will have right off the bat its own distortion! why?... because the
horn is an amplifying device and in my way of hearing is very audible distortion!

second main reason.... horn systems are designed to project there distortion ...a very forward projection mind you ...there is no music in real life
that has this extreme forward projection


so let me ask you again why horn systems LOL

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 7
Post ID: 19767
Reply to: 19761
All blondes are dumb, no blacks can swim, all arabs are terrorists, Fidelity backward?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Lawrence,
I really thought your post deserved no answer based on the fact that anyone that lumps all instances (imagined and experienced) together simply does not have the ability to apply common sense. No discussion could ever end with acceptable results. Obviously you have not even taken the time to scope the depth of the discourse here at Romy's site..........

I simply suggest that you visit Romy's playback part of the forum and do a bit of homework. You will quickly realize that your scope of things have missed some very important opportunities.

Musical IQ as you define it is something generally missing in people that think that they have it. Why? Well, the typical audiophool knows quite a bit about music but applies no common sense to playback - rather exactly as you posted rely on prejudices to guide their actions.

Horns that are used within their "common sense" range can offer outstanding results.

Of course there are intelligent blondes, blacks can swim and most Arabs are not terrorists. I am not sure about your ability to objectively review your stated prejudice however. Only you can "prove" that you have the ability to read, understand and react in a sensible fashion.......

I am a trumpet player in a symphony orchestra. Horns can even reproduce the string sounds that I experience on stage in a VERY believable manner - the dynamics of what I experience on stage challenge most all other forms of playback in a very serious way however.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 8
Post ID: 19769
Reply to: 19767
They do not play like music period!
fiogf49gjkf0d
your post has not merit sir...some of the most stupid people that have the ability to play musical instrument have no clue
on how music sounds in an audience(fact) I know several people here in the chicagoland area that play for CSO they are clueless
as you seem to be on this subject...also have a personal friend that sings in opera at the lyric in chicago ...guess what she uses to evaluate
her singing a small bose system LOL

no one has answered my simple question

why horns!
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 9
Post ID: 19771
Reply to: 19769
More of my thoughts
fiogf49gjkf0d
further more I did not come to this site to be enamored with romys system or suck his dick either like you seem to


get a clue and be true to  yourself and your system
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 10
Post ID: 19772
Reply to: 19766
Graves digging?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ShuffleSk8Ter wrote:
  one of the main serious issues  horn speakers ANY TYPE ....horn loaded will have right off the bat its own distortion! why?... because the horn is an amplifying device and in my way of hearing is very audible distortion!
second main reason.... horn systems are designed to project there distortion ...a very forward projection mind you ...there is no music in real life
that has this extreme forward projection

Can you elaborate on it? You above said that your understanding of horn is very limited to the point that you do not even differentiate horns topologies.  Then you postulate the horns rules and attribute to horns some intrinsic distortions. I would like to learn more about your reasoning.

 ShuffleSk8Ter wrote:
  so let me ask you again why horn systems

You are right and I am sorry. It was my mistake and I will never do it again. You had opened my eyes on the fundamental limitation of the crap that I used for so many years. Where did you get so much wisdom? Did you pick it up from some kind of secretive Egyptian manuscripts?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 11
Post ID: 19773
Reply to: 19772
I was expecting much more from romy but now i see or should i say hear LOL
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think this is hilarious you cannot even debate with my thoughts....or should i say facts LOL....

bout time someone kicked you in the balls and face the facts....


for the last time please answer my question...

why horns?! LOLOLOLOLOL
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 19775
Reply to: 19773
Good luck.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 ShuffleSk8Ter wrote:
I think this is hilarious you cannot even debate with my thoughts....or should i say facts LOL....

bout time someone kicked you in the balls and face the facts....

for the last time please answer my question...why horns?! LOLOLOLOLOL
Lawrence, are you 14 year old? Come on, at this point reading my site you had to understand that that I answers question that indicate ether non-superficial relation with subject, or natural curiosity on the subject, or the questions that were formed based upon personal expertise with subject, or the questions that come from the peoples who are not idiots. You are neither of above and I would prefer you to deal with your idiosyncrasy on your own. Audio is not a field for exercising psychological or emotional disturbances. Try to find another outburst of your "genius".

Have a good life,
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
07-31-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 13
Post ID: 19778
Reply to: 19775
In all seriousness dont go away
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have read your views and now you have seen mine...what makes  you better then me for asking a legitiment question..and now answering me ...

I am trying to understand why you have chosen or anyone for that matter a horn system especially if you are trying to play real music not studio rock crap etc..you seem like an intelligent person and you have lots of Me me me posts so i questioned your validity because in my professional view horn systems  are not good at re-creating  the live musical event at home...why is this so hard to answer...I am as sane as anyone...I think your having a problem because no one has questioned you?

your entilted to your own oppion and to be happy with your horns but then again you question lots of people saying they are idots etc.. because they dont know music ..well i know music sir and there is no horn speaker that replicates music so if you are a music person who understands music why did you put together horn system?"Smile

08-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 19781
Reply to: 19778
Be happy and go away.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, you are right and I am wrong, or anyone else who do horns for that matter. You are rights horns are not suitable for other then studio rock or for home use and I greatly appreciate that you with your much evolved listening IQ was the one who helped me and other to understand it. I will do my best from now and own to reconfigure my playback to meet your approval and if I feel sometime that I appreciate sound I hear from horns than I will be looking for some sort of physiological help.

Can you go away now? You have exhausted my interest to read your wisdom.  I am not closing this thread and do not revoke your access to this site. Use some self-control as you clearly see that the people around this site are much less sophisticate and intelligent then you are. I’m bowing my head and kindly suggest going somewhere else and I am not qualified to serve your interests.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 15
Post ID: 19785
Reply to: 19778
One last try for the mindless?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Deciding for horns is actually very easy. Why:
1) in the common sense range for each horn/driver they have far LESS distortion than any standard dynamic driver covering the same bandwidth. I define distortion as frequencies not originally in the recording space. That can be harmonic distortion (multiples of the desired frequencies - most objectionable are the odd harmonics), intermodulation distortion-when two frequencies produce sum and difference tones, transient distortion when the playback system "limits" transient response by phase, speed of the driver, limited dynamic capability
2) in the common sense range they can allow use of very high sound quality low power amplifiers - quality hardly available at the high power necessary for less efficient solutions
3) with a common sense, intelligent architecture they can offer a better balanced, more cohesive soundstage
4) the radiation pattern causes less room problems by delivering the energy where it is needed instead of unnecessarily and uncontrolled bouncing off of side walls, floor and ceiling
5) the gain that the horn creates can be matched to the driver/system and helps optimize its use for a given bandwidth, this allows for sonically far less intrusive crossovers
6) it is true, if you are hearing MORE, the warts also become more obvious. Instead of hiding them with lesser technologies, solving the problem becomes a far more worthy goal

For the brainless, good horns can be a bad solution. When each driver/horn used outside of the common sense bandwidth, they can "honk". This is not necessarily distortion (additional undesired frequencies), rather a misuse of the available acoustic EQ. Horns can also really show how bad the front end electronics can be. Romy and many others here freely discusses the limitations of all forms of playback architecture. Unfortunately, there are not many other sites that actually offer guidance in developing your own solution. Idiots ask innocent questions and the bloggers pile on - whether they have any experience or not.

The actual issue here is not horns, rather (only) your assumption that horns and music are not related. In spite of your limited experience with horns , you insist on making not bold, rather incredibly stupid comments that are unsupported by anything except your stated prejudices. Instead of checking the wealth of information, the documented facts that are more than amply accessible here, you insist on being spoonfed factoids. Your "professional" opinion has only been expressed with stupid phrases and no explanation of what the real problems that you think that you heard were.

Because you know of one opera singer with a Bose system, you generally write off working musicians ability to hear. If you knew what that opera singer was listening for, you would realize that the Bose system does a more than decent job of delivering the EXACT information that they require in analysing their performance. In that case it has NOTHING to do with fidelity, rather where they breathe, how they phrase, inflection of the voice, articulation, dynamics - all things that are very easily heard - even with Bose. A large system would make that type of analysis much more difficult as much more information unrelated to the issue at hand is present. In professional studios, the large speakers shown in the glossy brochures are NOT the ones used for mixing the music. They are necessary for the "visitors" or "clients".

Reproduction of sound in the home requires much more than a specific speaker architecture. All of that is documented here, primarily by the host Romy, but with plenty of additional experiences by people with passion for the art.

People that drink really cheap beer also do not understand $150.00 bottles of wine. They insist that this wine is sour, that they are still thirsty afterwards.

Sure, there are enough people out there that get horns wrong, but many, many more that get conventional drivers even worse. Do not lump all horns into the limited scope of your experience. Do not make the mistake of confusing horns and rock music. The guitar and bass on stage use conventional drivers to get a specific type of distortion. The PA systems are often run by "engineers" without the hearing protection required for continuous high level listening. The sound systems are not engineered for fidelity, rather pressure at all frequency ranges. There are exceptions, Tom Danley being a very notable one.

It is always interesting to know the agenda of the people that you are exposed to. Even if they have "horn systems", this does not "qualify" them unless the RESULT justifies the means. If you had spent any time looking around here before opening your mouth, you probably already would have had more than enough answers for the shallow questions posed, and just maybe a couple of questions about doing a better job on your playback. So instead of a very weak unfound "opinion", how about describing what makes something other than horns so good for you.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-01-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 16
Post ID: 19787
Reply to: 19785
Thank you for responding
fiogf49gjkf0d
I will respond i need a day or so and i just wanted to say ..I am not here to troll..but have a deep respect for the most dynanmic of art forms...music Smile

I really want this to be a good disscussion and i have some real good rebuttles...

be back soon
Lawrence


08-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,545
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 17
Post ID: 19788
Reply to: 19785
Waste of time
fiogf49gjkf0d
Rowuk, I think you were shooting to a wrong target. You are trying to refer to some kind of sense of reasons and rationale. Unfortunately the individual above looks like does not inherent to rezoning but rather willing to present his random, none-systemic and uninformed exposure as spme sort of universal judgment tool. The posted question itself is not dumb but if it was brought by people who just use alternative audio topologies and have sense of audio intellect (like Haralanov for instance) then it might be a worthy conversation. However, in the situation of the self-serving head-case above I do feel that this thread is just a waste of time.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 229
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 18
Post ID: 19789
Reply to: 19788
All just good fun?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Rowuk, I think you were shooting to a wrong target. You are trying to refer to some kind of sense of reasons and rationale. Unfortunately the individual above looks like does not inherent to rezoning but rather willing to present his random, none-systemic and uninformed exposure as spme sort of universal judgment tool. The posted question itself is not dumb but if it was brought by people who just use alternative audio topologies and have sense of audio intellect (like Haralanov for instance) then it might be a worthy conversation. However, in the situation of the self-serving head-case above I do feel that this thread is just a waste of time.
Hi Romy,the only point that he made that was of value is that we did not answer his question - "why horns?". Of course he is a troll and has no interest in learning anything. His agenda is shallow and I see no reason to waste any more time. Be sure that I am not interested in his announced malinformed rebuttal. I am also not concerned about the value of this site decreasing. Stupid does make it harder to find the quality things however.
Maybe you need a section of this site for "waste of time". I know that you are not the type to delete content or randomly ban members without a clue. A section like this would give us a place to go for a good laugh but keep the quality things prominent.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-02-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 241
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 19
Post ID: 19790
Reply to: 19789
Gradations of horniness
fiogf49gjkf0d
One striking thing is the dichotomisation of horn and non-horn, where really there is a continuity to examine, with interesting subtopologies such as tapped and synergy horns at the boundaries. I know these and other variations have been discussed here but it would be attractive to put the fixed points deeper, leaving more freedom to find variant topologies that embody the horn principle at lower (generally spatial) cost. So many avenues here are dead ends, like folded horns, but there is no question that synergy horns are interesting, and they cannot be the only alternative answer.  
08-03-2013 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
ShuffleSk8Ter
Posts 12
Joined on 07-30-2013

Post #: 20
Post ID: 19797
Reply to: 19785
My rebuttle
fiogf49gjkf0d
quote:1
:Deciding for horns is actually very easy. Why:
1) in the common sense range for each horn/driver they have far LESS distortion than any standard dynamic driver covering the same bandwidth. I define distortion as frequencies not originally in the recording space. That can be harmonic distortion (multiples of the desired frequencies - most objectionable are the odd harmonics), intermodulation distortion-when two frequencies produce sum and difference tones, transient distortion when the playback system "limits" transient response by phase, speed of the driver, limited dynamic capability

This is utter nonsense for the very simple fact that horns and it inherent coloration/distortion of adding a horn to the driver
(amplifying device) cancels out any positive effects of higher efficiency etc..further more most if not all horn loaded compression
drivers have a metal cone/diaphragm these devices have THERE OWN distortion and ringing!... adding to the horn part making some
frequencys addictive and some completely cancel out! this is why you see so many people put foam or and acoustic absorbing
devise in the mouth of the horn.....the ONLY beneifit to a horn loud speaker is it will play very loud.......big deal! this does not make them
good or play like real live music......and the old saying of people if your not good play LOUD! LOL



quote:2 in the common sense range they can allow use of very high sound quality low power amplifiers - quality hardly available at the high power necessary for less efficient solutions

again total BS! this is what everyone continues to say of there advantage of high efficiency horn speaker I know from personal experience
I have built many many low power 1.5watt-3watt single ended amplifiers there is no real advantage actually tube amps
have less advantage they have a bandwidth limiting device in them there output transformer

quote:3) with a common sense, intelligent architecture they can offer a better balanced, more cohesive soundstage

 this does not make sense as most if not all horn speakers have limitied bandwidth either on the bottom or on the top
or both furthermore..soundstage have little to do with the speakers and more to do with the room...soundstage 3d etc etc..is all BS audiophool
crap that does not relate to real music sir!

Quote:
4) the radiation pattern causes less room problems by delivering the energy where it is needed instead of unnecessarily and uncontrolled bouncing off of side walls, floor and ceiling


again all utter BS... when was the last time you were in a concert hall? EVERYTHING IS REFLECTED SOUND SIR if  you like
that forced in your face presentation fine but don't tell me this is what you hear live!!

quote:
quote:
5) the gain that the horn creates can be matched to the driver/system and helps optimize its use for a given bandwidth, this allows for sonically far less intrusive crossovers


see my response in #1



quote:
6) it is true, if you are hearing MORE, the warts also become more obvious. Instead of hiding them with lesser technologies, solving the problem becomes a far more worthy goal

I don't think you understand what your hearing...your hearing the added coloration/distortion ...along with the signal and
thinking that your beloved horns are the most reveling speakers LOL



the moral of this little rebuttle is horn speakers are far to messed up to be able to bring the live musical event home... if you like
them fine but just because you like them does not mean they are the real thing or resemble the real thing people need to be
real with themselves and there playback systems...if are  a regular at the BSO CSO or where ever you live and have a musical
IQ then you will realize real quick that horn speakers ANY CONFIGURATON will not be what you hear live..

be real to yourself..


Lawrence

Fidelity_Forward
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