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01-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1
Post ID: 15403
Reply to: 15403
The CES's 2011 horns
fiogf49gjkf0d

I wonder if any new interning horns ideas are present at CES. There is a post at the hi-fi-heroin site:

http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2011/01/ces-preview-you-actually-want-to-see.html

… that depicts a new speaker. I kind of like it and don’t.  It is 3-way speaker at the bottom it has push-pull looks like 15” drivers. In front it has a very shallow horn give probably one-three dB at 200Hz. There is back exit from that 15”. I would estimate 80-70Hz. The speaker has those wings from 30s that shall pouch some additional upperbass forward. This configuration is of cause is self-defeatable for the driver. On the top there is some kind of 12 multicell with exit of at least 150Hz. I think a MF driver live in this horn but the horn is very strange.  It flat and has no curve, it means the length of the middle pipe and the side pipes are different – not too kosher. The biggest problem that I with it is the relation between the size of the MF horn and the depth of the horn. This horn looks like 15” deep and will not provide any QE at all. It acts more like a diffuser, which might not too bad itself. Between the MF and bass channels there is a WE type tweeter with a pipe.

 I like in this speaker that whoever behind it was trying to do something different but I do not know that they accomplished.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-08-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 2
Post ID: 15404
Reply to: 15403
CES Report
fiogf49gjkf0d
CES Report,,,, AUDIOVOX is in position to purchass KLIPSCH GROUP... So far its a none binding talk..
01-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 3
Post ID: 15405
Reply to: 15403
The name is the nameless speaker -Silbatone Acoustics.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I wonder if any new interning horns ideas are present at CES. There is a post at the hi-fi-heroin site:

http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2011/01/ces-preview-you-actually-want-to-see.html

… that depicts a new speaker. I kind of like it and don’t.  It is 3-way speaker at the bottom it has push-pull looks like 15” drivers. In front it has a very shallow horn give probably one-three dB at 200Hz. There is back exit from that 15”. I would estimate 80-70Hz. The speaker has those wings from 30s that shall pouch some additional upperbass forward. This configuration is of cause is self-defeatable for the driver. On the top there is some kind of 12 multicell with exit of at least 150Hz. I think a MF driver live in this horn but the horn is very strange.  It flat and has no curve, it means the length of the middle pipe and the side pipes are different – not too kosher. The biggest problem that I with it is the relation between the size of the MF horn and the depth of the horn. This horn looks like 15” deep and will not provide any QE at all. It acts more like a diffuser, which might not too bad itself. Between the MF and bass channels there is a WE type tweeter with a pipe.

 I like in this speaker that whoever behind it was trying to do something different but I do not know that they accomplished.

The AUDIOVOX is buying KLIPSCH? Hmmm, so what? Klipsch long time ago stopped to be a company that deserves any interest from horn perspective. The only worthy their speakers were made in the end of 60s. In 80s they terminated their R&D for commercial division and in my view there was no Klipsch anymore. So, I feel that it was no news…

Now about the main subject. The speakers that I linked in the post above are by Silbatone Acoustics. This kind of see another perspective at whaler I was guessing. If it was by Silbatone  then it is very likely that Silbatone  did not “invented” of designed anything but copy some kind of Western Electric design.  The multicell without the curve and the wings around the bass horn and the Pinocchio tweeter did remind me WE. I do not remember all of those WE numbers but  I am sure that if anyone would go over WE catalog then they find a direct correlation between what Silbatone presented and what WE did. IN fact I think it is a pure replica but I do not know WE too much to judge. The only exception would be is that I do not think that WE would put a tweeter in their speakers. At that that time the requirement for Sound was VERY LOW and WE would not add tweeter as they most likely felt that MF multicell above is enough.

I do not know if Silbatone made own replica of WE drivers or they just used driver from own collection. If they made own drivers inspired of even copied from WE then it might be a commendable efforts. If they just brought WE speaker from this collection then it is boring from the perspective of horn awareness and has only interests from the perspective of the Sound that Silbatone will be able to demonstrate. This it is the SEC ad-hog room I would not expect a lot….

If wonder, if it not the Silbatone speakers but WE then why Silbatone brought this system to CES. They do not have any US exposure and then only their presence in US is their US pimp (Joe Roberts) who is running across the audio forums like a wounded in ass antelope and trying to convert the WE paranoia that he created in past into a marketing noise around  Silbatone.  I am not sure what the Silbatone objectives in all of it.  If they are doing it for “fun” then good for them, overcome to the club, why they spent time and money to get somebody attention? If they are looking some kind of parley to world and US market then they need to realize that Joe Roberts blabbering is able to impress a few deranged individuals who are fingering wives by a polled copy of Sound Practices magazine.  They people are not marketing market and shall not be aim of Silbatone attention. Anyhow, this is all another subject and it has nothing to do with actually horn or Sound.

The  Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 4
Post ID: 15407
Reply to: 15405
CES
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
I heard these speakers and I thought they sounded excellent compared to most of the crap at the show. Even better were are pair of original Western Electric 757A two way monitors that were running in the other room. No bass below 50-60HZ, but vocals were beautiful.

There were actually quite a few horn speakers at the show, a nice departure from most of the overly clinical sound of most rooms. 
01-09-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 5
Post ID: 15408
Reply to: 15407
I think it will not last long.
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is nice that you report that they “sound fine compared to most of the crap at the show”, whatever it means. I was informed that Silbatone did not do anything original. They used Western Electric 594 and 597 drivers, both low voltage filed coils.  I do not what you report but according to the “big time self-inflicted Western Eclectic connoisseur” Joe Roberts they sounded like crap. I am not kidding; a year ago that idiot was popping up at this site claiming the any Western Electric driver not driven by Western Electric amplifier is unacceptable.  So, since Silbatone drove their WE with this own amp but not with a rusty attic crap then I guess it shall be very bad. Well, it would be true according to the “not of your average Joe” who personal sound practices is to run his mouth.

I think Silbatone brought something at the show that they would like to sell and they brought the WE demo as attraction hook. There is nothing wrong with that of cause, the sad past that it was at the CES show and the sound that you like was interesting mostly in context of the rest “most of the crap at the show”. I remember Silbatone brought old WE to a show in Germany in spring, so this becoming a good tradition for them. Take advantage while it last.  If they are not idiots then they very soon realize that what they do is (unfortunately) neither profitable nor gratifiable for them.

I think it will not last long unless Silbatone begin to do own things, the way how they did with their Aporia speaker only with more practical, realistic and better performing solutions. It is sad that this WE speaker with custom midbass horn that they demonstrated at this CES is not this commercial attempt.  

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 6
Post ID: 15411
Reply to: 15408
CES
fiogf49gjkf0d
"whatever that means" is that most rooms at a trade show are not good. You know this Rommy, I've seen you write it in past posts. I like that Silbatone was trying to demonstrate to the "Wilson Audio" crowd that vintage horns can surpass the latest multi-driver cones.

Other than Avantgarde and Classic Audio Reproductions, there are few commercially available horns that are shown at CES/The Show.
01-10-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 7
Post ID: 15412
Reply to: 15411
Notable but not stimulating….
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jeff1225 wrote:
…"whatever that means" is that most rooms at a trade show are not good. You know this Rommy, I've seen you write it in past posts.

Shure, Jeff, I know what most rooms, if not all, at a trade show are not suppose to be good but it sends not indication how appropriately Silbatone sounded. I got the messages that it was better than others, but let agree that if I during my one hour driving accidently kill  just one pedestrian then it will make me better driver then you (who let say killed 3 pedestrians) but it would not make me to be a good driver. Would it?

I would not press you to give some feedback about Silbatone as I have kind of reduced interest to the sound that Silbatone demonstrate. If Silbatone did something themselves, even as primitive as to mimic WE, then it would be interesting.  But they did not, they juts brought old speaker and played them somehow, it is not stimulating in my view, notable but not stimulating…. BTW, years back I wrote that for show in Vegas it is very important to bring speakers that do not go over 12K or under 55K, any speaker with this characteristics in Vegas always sound better then “any other room in the show”. Pay attention: the monitors sound better in Vegas then full-ranges, and if people are not Morons then they roll off the Monitor’s tweeters very aggressively. Years back, when the Morons did not know me by face, I cursed some CES the rooms with monitors with a roll of toilet paper, wrapping the toilet paper around tweeter. It was very important to manage to do it before the kick you out of room…
 jeff1225 wrote:
I like that Silbatone was trying to demonstrate to the "Wilson Audio" crowd that vintage horns can surpass the latest multi-driver cones.

I would very much argue with it. Please, separate the "Wilson Audio crowd” as a social-audio symbol and Wilson Audio as symbol of “latest multi-driver cones”. Silbatone did nothing then to demonstrate Silbatone’s “somethingness”, I do not know what they demonstrated. To get a room and to bring all of it from Korea, Silbatone spent ~50K, not a huge amount of money but tangible considering that it has no-impact besides a few tangent people like me and you mention it in internet. 

The Cat 
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 8
Post ID: 15421
Reply to: 15403
It was reported that it was GIP Labs.
fiogf49gjkf0d

It was reported, and I do not know how accurate it is, that Silbatone did not use WE driver but used a Japanese replica by GIP.

http://www.gip-laboratory.com/

http://www.amtrans.co.jp/audio/gip/lineup.shtml

It does not make any different to me as I equally not family with nether WE or GIP. The entire setting is still very much WE-inspired and has a number of fatal blunders in my view. Sure it would be interesting to hear what TTH those drivers are capable but I would need much more to get stimulating Sound then to recognize that those things do not sound like Kharma.  I do not know what kind sound Silbatone demonstrated but I hope whatever objectives they had they fulfill.

It would be generally interesting to learn about the gip-laboratory product. I do not know anything about them. Is it just WE replica or then do something more intelligent? The most important what diaphragms they used? Do they have English presence on web?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
zako
Posts 85
Joined on 05-25-2008

Post #: 9
Post ID: 15423
Reply to: 15421
CINEMA
fiogf49gjkf0d
I dont get it,,,Why introduce a system thats been around in all the CINEMA theaters for the last hundred years,,  I guess what goes around comes around again,,,
01-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 10
Post ID: 15424
Reply to: 15423
GIP
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy,
They had two rooms. The large room with the speakers posted above used the repo WE drivers by GIP. The other room had the vintage WE monitors that want down to 50 hz.

BTW, the Silbatone brochure had both Silbatone and GIP products in it. There is either a partnership between the companies or they are the same.

Jeff
01-15-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 11
Post ID: 15425
Reply to: 15423
The cinema speakers consciousness.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 zako wrote:
I dont get it,,,Why introduce a system thats been around in all the CINEMA theaters for the last hundred years,,  I guess what goes around comes around again,,,

Well, they did not “introduce” anything as I understand they have no commercial objectives in this project. They have some time and money and they juts demoed some piled up speakers. Since Silbatone has a lot of WE exposure it is no surprise that they brought a rendition of cinema speakers. Why did they do it? Well, this is my disagreement with Silbatone and with many other people who have the vintage sickness under the scull.

I have written many times at my site that old cinema speakers from 30s are garbage. They are garbage from design and from implementation perspective. The requirements to sound at that time were extremely low, the objectives were to serve large open space audiences and people did what they did. The good part the at that time no one saved money on materials and engineers did not developed bad habits  that become wide-spread later on. So, some of the elements of the cinema acoustic systems were indeed very-very good and contained capacity that was not even near close to realization at that time. Those cinema-speakers people are  fanatically pray to WE, Bell, Klangfilm, Telefunken, Marconi and many others without “getting” what is the key positive element in the sound that they like.  So, they just brainlessly are mimicking whatever they do not understand, to a different degree of success.

The truth is that some of those vintage elements are remarkably unfriendly for reuse, very non-liner, have very narrow bandwidth and it require a LOT to sound acceptable for today demands. You will very seldom see successful sonically and design-wise intelligent reuse of cinema elements from far past. What Silbatone demonstrated I find is not intelligent reuse. I am sure it did not sound like zippy crap in the rest of the room but it is not enough for me to consider what Silbatone demonstrated as “interesting” attempt.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-18-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 12
Post ID: 15448
Reply to: 15403
The CES @ ultrahighendforum
fiogf49gjkf0d

I got today an email with reference to ultrahighendforum. I do not read that site as it is where that audio douchebag  Oneobgyn, aka Steve Williams, aka Lamm’s Tampon is posting.  Still, glancing the pictures and a few comments I did not find it disgusting, in contrary somewhat sane. Most of the content comes from “faberryman”. I do not know he is, I presume that since he is in a bed with Oneobgyn then he is also an idiot. It is what it is.

http://www.ultrahighendforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4105

http://www.ultrahighendforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4120

BTW, What I found funny that always Silbatone -goggling and sticking his nose in any Silbatone hole Joe the Archeologist did show up in there and did  spread his mental Vaseline over faberryman mentioned his protégé.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 13
Post ID: 15480
Reply to: 15448
Two write ups about the CES
fiogf49gjkf0d

Go today two emails from the site readers with two links to the CES comments.

First one is from Jeffrey Jackson who looks like was recruited by Joe the Uninvolved Archeologist with the room:

http://hifiheroin.blogspot.com/2011/01/ces-2011-big-western-electric-system.html

The second link is to the Federated Mike:

http://www.audiofederation.com/blog/

You need to scroll down and it will be a lot of clickable high-res pictures. Mike did not write any comment and it was pretty much nothing to look in there besides one intriguing moment. In the article about the new Lamm ML2.2:

 http://www.GoodSoundClub.com/TreeItem.aspx?PostID=15398 

I have wrote that knowing what ML2 input stage is I feel that it is highly possible that the claimed modification of ML2.2’s input stage to “make it to sound like ML3” is a pure BS. Thanks to the Federated Mike who posted a high res picture of the “new” ML2.2. To the best of my memory I see absolutely no difference in PCB the traces between old ML2 and the new ML2.2. Lamm might stop to use garbage output transformer that he used to use in ML2.1 and not he declares it is “improvement”.  Sorry, I do not believe in anything Lamm produced after ML2.0. Whatever Lamm did after 2001 was already “not there”….

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 14
Post ID: 15482
Reply to: 15480
No further comments necessary, ever.
fiogf49gjkf0d




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-30-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
wjam


The French Alps
Posts 7
Joined on 01-04-2011

Post #: 15
Post ID: 15500
Reply to: 15482
Holy crap!
fiogf49gjkf0d
Someone's having a fit there and no-one gives a damn!

wjam
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
haralanov


Bulgaria
Posts 130
Joined on 05-20-2008

Post #: 16
Post ID: 15505
Reply to: 15482
What a waste!!
fiogf49gjkf0d
There are really no further comments necessary!!!!


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." -A.E.
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jeff1225
Posts 21
Joined on 01-10-2011

Post #: 17
Post ID: 15508
Reply to: 15505
Crazy Germans
fiogf49gjkf0d
I never understood the affinity that the Germans have for heavy metal. Whenever you going into any of their rooms at CES (especially MBL), Slayer is playing at 130 DB. Maybe it's the modern interpretation of Wagner.
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 9,486
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 18
Post ID: 15510
Reply to: 15508
There are absolutely no accidents with it.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 jeff1225 wrote:
I never understood the affinity that the Germans have for heavy metal. Whenever you going into any of their rooms at CES (especially MBL), Slayer is playing at 130 DB. Maybe it's the modern interpretation of Wagner.

Jeff, you are absolutely correct, especially about MBL.  BTW, the record in this was set by Magico. A few years back the idiots who run Magico first time show up CES. He did not have speakers built yet, only small shitty monitor, and was showing off computer-generated images. He was asking me absolutely idiotic questions like “what is time alignment” and alike, it looked as he was very accidental person. At that time I did not know that what he was and what kind shit he was. So, I was polite and wished him good luck. In a few hours I was walking near the room and was witnessing literally 120 DB of heavy metal crap coming from Magico room. What was particularly interesting is not the absurd selection of music but the way how Magico monitor was paling it and how the retards in the room were reacting to it. The first Magico monitor was incredibly horrible speaker that in my view encompassed the worse that exist in contemporary hi-fi. In addition to anything is that monitor play louder then 80dB it dive into very severs distortions across the whole bandwidth. In that CES room the v Magico monitor was playing at insane volume level and it had huge own distortions caused compressions. You know at some bad low sensitivity speakers you reach 95dB level and then you add 3dB of gain at preamp but volume does not goes up?  The retards at Magico were playing at least at least 20dB more gain then this monitor can handle. So, that heavy metal hat they played was so distorted and the people were so exuberant about the sound they heard he it was my first sign that that something was very wrong with his company. Interesting that I did go into the Magico room, even during that horrible noise coming from them. What I was curious to see if it was the room visitor who plays own music of it was the room host. Yes, it was what it was – the Magico’s owner was showing off his personal demo. Did I tell that it was the last time I spoke with him?

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-31-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
wjam


The French Alps
Posts 7
Joined on 01-04-2011

Post #: 19
Post ID: 15511
Reply to: 15510
Heavy metal- AN system
fiogf49gjkf0d
Many years ago at a hi-fi show I arrived in the Audio Note room with it's 100k system (Gakuon power amps if memory serves right).. Fresh off my motorbike resplendent in leathers, Dead Can Dance LP under my arm.

I asked if they could play track 1 side 1..  Mr Qvortrop looked at me (up and down slowly)  looked at the name of the LP and responded with "It's not heavy metal is it?"   I said it definitely was not heavy metal... so he played it... his jaw flapped a little, he demanded where I found this, and promptly bought a copy, same night, in the local record store.

He was so surprised at my muscial choice.  I KNEW not to bring Motorhead :-)

wjam
02-01-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 32
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 20
Post ID: 15517
Reply to: 15421
GIP
fiogf49gjkf0d
I go to the Amtrans store a lot but have never listened to the GIPs because they are just too expensive (60k, 180k USD etc). But I think I was informed that these were fanatically replicated Western Electric speaker system concept, but where possible GIP tried to improve execution (materials, quality etc).

Only reason I took notice again recently was because in the latest edition of Stereo Sound (Japanese audio magazine), an audio reviewer renowned for his love of dubious audio equipment (Krell and Magico speakers etc) reviewed the GIPs and was shocked to realize that the sound he was used to listening sounded wooden and slow in comparison. I was shocked at his honesty (my expectations of reviewers are maybe just too low), and given that GIP spends virtually nil on advertising (compared to the Krells and Magicos), a miracle.


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  »  New  Aporia - Silbatone Acoustics speaker..  Silbatone and WE in Germany or hi-fi barter....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     103  609273  01-10-2009
  »  New  Western Electric reproduces 0Hz + some literature…..  Re-set...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     2  34639  07-24-2006
  »  New  Klangfilm: actual knowledge is better then fetish imagi..  Klangfilm Kl51...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     18  152270  03-15-2007
  »  New  CES – constant but fortunately final pain...  CES and the "BEST digital on the planet"....  Audio Discussions  Forum     3  21832  12-06-2005
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