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10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009
Post #: 1
Post ID: 12025
Reply to: 12025
Johannes Brahms - Symphony No.4, Carlos Kleiber, Wiener Philharmoniker
fiogf49gjkf0d
Can anyone help me understand why I find this music so utterly 'directionless'?

It is a digital recording from 1981 by DG (Stereo 2532 003)

I experience this Brahms recording in particular, as 'going nowhere' , directionless, as if put together by some endless number of bits and pieces not intrinsically connected. Like some overloaded pizza, or a meal with too many spices being used.

There are LOTS of my classic recordings that do not make me feel in this way at all. It is somehow to do with Brahms' symphonic work style. I wish I could get past this block (if it is one...).

Greetings,
Axel
10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 2
Post ID: 12028
Reply to: 12025
Exit - in case of Brahms?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Axel, is this reaction of your ONLY about Carlos Kleiber’s version with Wiener Philharmoniker or is it your reaction to entire Brahms? If it is entire Brahms then be advised that there are people who do not “get” Brahms, there was a lot of said about it.

http://www.nysun.com/arts/brahms-the-beleaguered/3016/

I might understand some of their position even I personally do like Brahms.

It this reaction of yours you have ANLY about Carlos Kleiber’s version then you might want to read this:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=11547

I would not describe this performance as “going nowhere” but I also have some problems, especially during the first movement.

Anyhow, I love Brahms symphonies, particularly the 2, 3 and 4th.

THe Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009
Post #: 3
Post ID: 12030
Reply to: 12028
Not all of Brahms is 'lost in Nowhere-Land'...
fiogf49gjkf0d
for me, in answer to your first question.

His violin-concerto, I have with Rainer, and various piano concertos do not give this notion of going nowhere. It is the 1st movement of the 4th symphony with C. Kleiber (I can’t listen past it, I get so affected = pissed-off) same with the 1st symphony with Karajan and the Berliners.

There seems a quality of absent mindedness, a lacking integration of the various themes. When listening to Beethoven doing such, e.g. 4th piano concerto is SO genius by comparison, that Brahms feels to me just lost in what he was doing. The 1st of Brahms' symphonies strikes me as contrived, unauthentic, put-on, and cobbled together.

I say FEELS and that's why I asked the OP question. It's interesting reading through your posted link, in that I'm apparently not on my own with these notions on Brahms’ symphonic music.

Another example comes to mind is: Ernest Hemingway and his writings. To me he is a skill-less dabbler (German = Stümper), but to others -- some elevated free-spirited writer re-defining prose!? Let me leave it at that, lest some Hemingway fan is going to feel really offended.

So Brahms and Hemingway have something in common, in that they split the ideas as to whether they were self promoting impostors (mostly), or some of the greatest artists of their time.

Go figure
Axel
10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tuga


Posts 174
Joined on 12-26-2007
Post #: 4
Post ID: 12031
Reply to: 12030
The context
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Axel wrote:
for me, in answer to your first question.

Another example comes to mind is: Ernest Hemingway and his writings. To me he is a skill-less dabbler (German = Stümper), but to others -- some elevated free-spirited writer re-defining prose!? Let me leave it at that, lest some Hemingway fan is going to feel really offended.

So Brahms and Hemingway have something in common, in that they split the ideas as to whether they were self promoting impostors (mostly), or some of the greatest artists of their time.




Hi Axel,

I have a similar problem with several artists of different disciplines and their works, sometimes the entire production.
But I have found that learning about the context in which these works were created allows me to dig beneath the surface and it does help me to understand and even subscribe the merit of their creators: even though I am not stirred by it I can accept that it is good work.

Cheers,
Ric

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira Pascoaes
10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,672
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 5
Post ID: 12034
Reply to: 12030
Up For Another Example?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Axel, since you seem to like some Brahms, try late Reiner (1962, as I recall) with the Royal Symphany Orchestra, on LP, if possible.  This will at least present the 4th Symphony as well integrated musically, and with luck you may come to feel as I do that Brahms' 4th Symphony is a towering achievement, and certainly one of Brahms' best works, if not his best.

I happen to like a good deal of Brahms.  IMO, certain of Brahms works are often mistaken as "easy to play", when, in reality, the themes quickly become disconnected if the artist loses his overall sense of continuity.  And yes, I agree that some of Brahms' work does lack continuity; but certainly not the 4th Symphony.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-21-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 6
Post ID: 12035
Reply to: 12030
They are the hell of sensations….
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, I am not at ease with the first movement of Carlos Kleiber’s version from 1981 as well. To me it is mostly about the orchestra tuning… The third movement in there I truly Kleiber-like: in the first movement they are juts tuning in and rehearsaling…

To me the Brahms symphonies are very simple. You need to strip down from them all orchestral embellishment and leave out the raw core of melody; that in most of the Brahms cases is phenomenally simple but superbly brilliant. Then you play those melodies in your head in zillion circumstances, to see how they glue itself to life. Then knowing exactly how it shell be played you sit in symphony whole and witness how what become almost native to you get refined, ornamented and decorated with 116 players orchestra. They are the hell of experience….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Axel
South Africa
Posts 80
Joined on 07-18-2009
Post #: 7
Post ID: 12036
Reply to: 12035
Good inputs...
fiogf49gjkf0d
thanks, and so I will give this a few more chances to see if I will be able to connect.

Though as I noted, even Tchaikovsky had his issues with man. (Not that I am anywhere near as perceptive as that good Russian was :-)

Axel
10-22-2009 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 8
Post ID: 12037
Reply to: 12036
All of those Brahmasenian conversations...
fiogf49gjkf0d
All of those Brahmasenian conversations made me to take from home to my work today the "EMII References"albums with Weingartner and Furtwangler and spend today a day with Brahms. The Furtwangler does Brahms  with Vienna Philharmonic, Weingartner with London Philharmonic and London Symphony. I did not listen them for over a year I think it might be fun….

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,184
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 9
Post ID: 15545
Reply to: 12028
Did anybody observe that Brahms comes with waves?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Nowdays I am in one of those waves and until I re-listen ton of Brahms during this wave I do not stop.  Interesting that the craving for Brahms is kind of wavy, another few weeks I might not hear Brahms at all and it does not bother me. But not during the “wave” I can’t not get enough of Brahms

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  A CD off tune? The Big CD Conspiracy theory?..  Low cost re-issues...  Didital Things  Forum     9  95915  08-25-2009
  »  New  The BBC program about great Carlos Kleiber..  Fantastisch!...  Musical Discussions  Forum     6  49886  09-28-2009
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