Lbjefferies7 wrote:

I found these a few days ago...https://www.solen.ca/pdf/atd/14w2608agti.pdfAny experience or speculation about these drivers?

Why I said that Görlich sounded “different” and were used wrongly. Well, it was the low resonant frequency that I think screw those drivers. It was around 60Hz for small driver and it lead people to use Görlich in 2-ways configuration. Magico monitor was a perfect example of 2-way miss-use, listen them and you will hear what I mean. As good Görlich was at strictly midrange (with some questionable tone) as dead it was when a driver was forced to care lower MF and upper bass. Görlich is excellent MF driver but why drivers that shell work above 300Hz shell have a resonant frequency of 50Hz? Well, those mislead many people. What I experimented with my Görlich I did the same mistake and I drove them to low. I did have a chance however to hear 3 way implementation with Podzus’s  Görlich. It was a small Italian company, I do not remember name, and the made a floor standing 3-way loudspeakers with Zellatron’s version of Görlich drivers. It was ported Scan-Speak twin bass with, one MF Görlich and one Heil transducer for HF. They were presented at CES sometimes in 2000 and it was the “lost show” for them. They were in some kind of side room and no one spoke English among those guys, they play crappy music. The hi-fi show in other words. The speakers were set up strangely with very surprisingly good MF. I was attracted to it and a friend of mine and I were articulated something to those Italians. I do not remember already how it was, but I remember that I was bitching about the very inappropriate bass – it was obviously that their if not mistaken 300B amp was not able to handle the port’s secondary resonance, the current resonance.  Those Italians somehow understood us and told us that they have a solution for this problem, inviting us to stop by in the end of the day when they might to show off “another amps”. We stopped by, I think after hours, and they indeed had a pair of gorgeous looking monoblocks with 211 tubes of their own made, it was not demod at the show. However the sound of those thighs was nothing short of wonderful. I literally had no bases for complain. Regardless to the fact that it was 8 years back and I was much less intelligent about sound and much less critical that I now I still feel that it was very good. The sad part that no one ever mention about that company after then but those Italians  truly knew what they were doing.

I presume that if Görlich would do 5 then I might try them for MiniMe in 3-way configuration but the sensitively of 87dB is relay keep all of it out of the ball park. Even two of them would be far from my targeted 95dB… I presume that if Görlich stay with 100Hz-130Hz primary resonance then they would have fewer excursions and pick 5-6dB of sensitivity. Then they would need to stiff up the suspension it will be better for MF but it will be a different driver as no one knows how the Görlich’s cone would sound hard-suspended.

Lbjefferies7 wrote:

… I am going to revise my "Mini" speakers for a second system (different location) and I have not decided how serious they should be.

I too have no respect for DIY'ers of any type, and audio is certainly the worst place for such people.  I don't identify with or socialize among such people, or even audiophiles in general.  The only thing that motivates most of these people seems to be the fear that someone might either have a bigger income or a bigger dick.  When I think of DIY "speaker" builders, I can just see some worn-out Al Bundy look-alike in his garage cobbling together some piece of crap just hoping that it will impress/piss-off the neighbors when he plays Ted Nugent.  And he wants to talk to me about audio.  Perfect.

My interest is music.  I intentionally avoid commercial speakers that profess to be high-end.  I have heard exactly two "audiophile" playback systems for a total of maybe 5 minutes (some custom full-range planer speakers and Dynaudio Evidence, Classe, Nordost, grinning salesman system) and was unimpressed with the fact that neither of them played music in a significant way.  Audio was there, but no music.  Because I grew up in an environment of live, Real Music, working dilignetly to use sound of Real Instruments (pianos), I involved myself in the idea of loudspeakers as musical instruments.  I can no longer listen seriously with any other human being present.  Trying to explain my system to others has become impossible (for me, at least) and I know that everyone I know will probably never understand.  Music disappears when they are around and the entire effect becomes silly and frivolous...even though they say "it's great."

So here I am at the Tabula Rasa Loudspeaker University, not jerking off other people with sound and music...just myself.  The right music is perhaps the most rewarding and stimulating experience I will ever have.  An experience that is all mine, and only mine.

Now let's go discuss cable elevators!!!

Do you European guys know anything about this German company?

http://www.micro-precision.eu/index.html

It looks like they have new production of Görlich drivers and it looks like they use aluminum.  It looks like they do it for automobiles, which is fine.

The series Z look attractive:

http://www.micro-precision.eu/6.html

 and they have 4 sizes of Görlich drivers. Could somebody learn what is the sensitivity of this driver:

http://www.micro-precision.eu/7.html

I was thinking and thing about it and eventually the amount of garbage thrown around my room was overwhelming and the only solution was to put all that garbage in trash or into some kind enclosure. Well, I decided the later and the MiniMe project is on it’s way. So, 3 days back I met my machinist and gave him all drowning of MineMe, placing the order. Since I finally went for G10 material it will take for a while – perhaps 2-3 weeks to have it done. Ok, I am not in hurry…

I decided to use juts one port and it will be 2” post, if I target 40Hz then it will be not too long pipe – approximately 3-4 inch. I will be using doable-flared port made from ABS. What inters me is if the port flare and the port’s pipe need to be mass-loaded or something like this? The pipe and the flare will care quite strong back and force reaction, so why do not make it from heavier mater then just flimsy ABS? Sure I will not re-do the port from bronze but I wonder if it makes sense to beef up the port, wrapping up some wavy staffing among it. I have quite good result from past what I was calming down horns by wrapping belts around them inner-layered with lead. Does it make sense to use the same techniques for the plastic elements of port?

There is a test of the 17 cm Görlich with rubber surrond in the new Hobby Hifi.

Very low fs (23 Hz) and low sensitivity (86 db). There is a clear surround resonance, so maybe it would be wise to wait for the announced models with cloth or foam surround. The membrane material seems to be really unique: The diaphragm has a resonance at 4-5 kHz that is also clearly visible in the distortion curves, but it is dead after 1 ms! BTW: It is a hard foam and the aluminium foils are just covers that are necessary because it is open pore.

There is also a test of the cheaper brother of the Magico Mini´s fancy looking midwoofer. It has a carbon/kevlar mesh diaphragm. The very low Rms indicates a low loss rubber surround, but is lacking surrond resonances. In the upper midrange the CSD is slower that the Görlich´s, however. From the distortion figures I don´t believe there can be anything wrong when used properly (as midrange!). Personally I have listened to the Veravox 5 highpassed with Shindo electronics, and I couldn´t find any tonal error, so I believe ATD definitely CAN build good drivers.

Jeeze, I just mention G10 and every machinist out there wants my head delivered to them on a silver platter!  Diamond tooling does help but I'll have to ask the guys I know with waterjet cutters if they have had any problems with it.  I'd think that would be pretty painless.  I would normally mention 3M ScotchWeld 2216 B/A as an adheasive, but I don't know how pissed everyone would get

Good Luck and Happy New Year

serenechaos wrote:

Did you use LEAP or anything like that, or just cross everything over 1st order as a guess, and tune by ear?

Oh, no. I do not use any LEAPs or others tools, no time domain analyses or anything like this – there is truly no need for it. The MiniMe case is very simple, not to mention that I generally have attitude toward many questionable design and substitution methods if they were used with no need.

In MiniMe everything is very simple and the key is to determine the bandpass for the MF driver. No one prediction software in the world will tell you where to cross it – you need to hear it. The first order on MF driver is expected based upon the Macondo Axioms.

The tweeter is ribbon as any good ribbon it sounds a few Hz above better then a few Hz below; even though this particular tweeter has something that shell make him more midrange-capable. I still would like to do go with tweeter more then I need to in order to compliment the MF driver. The tweeter crossover is other story. I believe that a ribbon tweeter can’t have first order passive crossover. Even if we do a first order passive then the inductance in the transformer still make it to behave like second order. So, why bother and do not do a pure second order? In my case I used an external coil to work alone with the inductance in Primary to write a perfect 12dB per octave Bessel curve. I might move is up and down in crossover point but the second order Bessel will be there foe sure.

The woofer is tricky as they are in a way abnormal and I would like to use the Resonating Oops on them, if I might. Therefore I have no idea where to cross them. I have no idea how low my MF will be in the box that I have made… So we will see.  The connection of the woofers is a variable as well as I do not know how I will be driving it and if I need to have high impedance at LF. If the tail on LF will be too long then I might go for a subtraction crossover but I think what I sketched able is a good starting point.

As you see there is not room in there for LEAP modeling everything is arbitrarily but the actual sound.