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02-12-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 41
Post ID: 2060
Reply to: 2059
LF and speakers
Hi Romy,

I believe you're right and it's due to the amount of LF the vinyl outputs, which may be more than the Bidat or the tuner do. It doesn't happen with all the discs, just some of them, which happen to be old recordings that probably have more LF content than newer ones. I don't have the facility to invert phase from vinyl (the Bidat does, not my phono preamp) unless I swap the wiring at the cartridge output.
Surely it's my speakers that can't deal with so much LF signal and do exactly as you describe, they seem to pressurize the room with low frequency before the tone is audible, and gets coherent with the mid-upper bass, which is not really outstanding either. My speakers are two ways and front bass reflex, so go figure. My room can't handle LF well, I have serious modes at 40 and about 75 Hz so my approach regarding bass response isn't as serious as I liked :-(

Rgrds.
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 42
Post ID: 2775
Reply to: 2055
Maria Callas and ...Micro Seiki

Do not believe me, I do not believe myself! I would like to tell you honestly that if this thing would be said by other person I would accept it as a pure BS because I have no reasoning to believe that it might be true…. but it is what actually what is going on.

I did not listen my TT for a few weeks, the FM and my digital recoding of the broadcasts really put TT to the back burner. Plus my resent “design mode”….

Anyhow, looking at my very intriguing success with the “Fundamental Channel” and my trying to “harmonize” sound via “Fundamental Channel” at the correct amplitude I deseeded to go for something “complex”. It is raining in Boston and I am in very good listing mood … therefore went for my shelves with selected “best recordings ever”

I pulled the 1982 pressing of “Ses Recitals 1954 – 1969” by Maria Callas. This collection is nothing short of stunning: 11 absolutely beautiful LP very-very nicely pressed by EMI-Pathe Marconi and 200pages book, covering the best years of the greatest singer. Yes, we all have dozens and hundreds Callas recording but could be too much Callas? Although I know the specific performances when Callas did better then in this Recitals but it is 22 sides of Callas in his prime!!! Did you ever see any better single collection of opera recording in such a phenomenal performing and recording quality?

Callas voice has everything you can imagine in Music and everything you can imagine in Sound and I decided to spend a day with her. Suddenly, as soon the runner record was played I realized that I lost bass in my analog. Interestingly, for few weeks that I did not listen it nothing, absolutely nothing was changed in analog and I was puzzled.

Then I detected that for those 3-4weeks the reel-to-real tape that run across both platters of my Micro Seiki got week and almost hangs. It still spins the patters with default stable speed (I did not hear any speed abnormalities and usually on soprano recordings it is might be heard intentionally) but it kind of juts “touch them”. I figures that it was kind of too loose and I added a little bit mote tension. Are you ready for it? I go my bass back!!!!!! I loose it back and force and the bass result clearly deviated with the tension of the tape.

Well, I would understand if it were a heavy belt and a light platter but… How, how come that a tandem of the zillion tone platters got affected by the light and no partially strongly applied real-to- real tape? I have no rational explanation!

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Ronnie
Stockholm
Posts 81
Joined on 06-30-2005

Post #: 43
Post ID: 2776
Reply to: 2775
Tension

Time to fall for the idler wheel propaganda? Smile
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1075644493&read&3&4&&st0

08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 44
Post ID: 2777
Reply to: 2776
Re: maintaining speed
never mind idler drive & all that rumble, get a proper turntable



Seriously though, thats interesting if 60Kg of rotating mass isn't enough.

What would be?
08-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 2778
Reply to: 2777
It has nothing to do with maintaining speed
I think you are loosing me. It has nothing to do with maintaining speed. In fact I never experience any speed problems form any of Micros, even the lightest one (and I am very sensitive to any speed deviations, tested). I was telling about even more bogus observation: the affect of the tape tension to LF!!! Frankly speaking, although I did witness it I still do not believe in it. It juts could not be true.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 46
Post ID: 2779
Reply to: 2778
Low frequency rumbling drainage?
Just speculating, but a tense wire can transmit vibration way better than a loose one. Perhaps to have an accurate bass response you need to keep low frequency oscillations away from the platter, and the tight tape helps to drain them to the rest of the system.

rgrds, A
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 47
Post ID: 2780
Reply to: 2779
two theories for what it is worth

Despite the sheer mass and moment of the Micro's platter(s), the tape must either be detracting from (when loose) or helping (when taught) the bass.

Speculating on the former, perhaps the tape when slack interacts (slipping and sliding) with the platter to create some kind of electro-magnetic charge? Speculating on the latter, I wonder if the tightened tape manages to dampen some kind of resonance inherent in the platter?

08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 48
Post ID: 2781
Reply to: 2780
I don't think electromagnetic charge
can have a strong enough field to interact with the cartridge, but electrostatic charge, if created, might have an influence in the way the needle contacts the vinyl.

Romy, did you notice if the disc had more static than usual?

Rgrds.
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 49
Post ID: 2782
Reply to: 2780
Everything points that I need a longer belt.

Yes, the theoretical static from the slipping ferromagnetic tape it was always that did not like in the tape idea but I always thought that the effect, if it ever take place, would be absolutely negligible, partially considering that I use conductive players the are grounded. I do not know if it was it, I do not think that I ever will and obviously if it was the static then I was absolutely beyond of something that I might detect.

I still would like to return to the rubber belt as I use to but unfortunately I have no idea what to get longer belt (I think it was 65” or 85” … I do not remember already). I was thinking to get the obtainable 35” belts and to glue them but I doubt that I would be able to do it well enough. There are people who can do long rubberish plastic belts, and I have them, but I do not like them – they are too heavy and too stiff.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-26-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Antonio J.
Madrid, Spain
Posts 272
Joined on 08-16-2004

Post #: 50
Post ID: 2783
Reply to: 2782
You could cut the rubber belt from the inner tube of a tyre
All you need is knowing the exact length required to ask for the matching diameter. Probably a bike tube will do. You can cut it as a ribbon or in a string shape. This way you'd avoid any discontinuity for glueing several pieces. From one tube you could cut many spare belts.

Another handy solution that comes to mind, is buying the kind of rubber tube which is used for aspiration (vacuum) at hospitals and labs. It's sold by length. You can cleanly match the extremes with rubber glue or even using a pair of staples. There are many diameters available depending on the application.

rgrds, A
12-16-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 51
Post ID: 3309
Reply to: 2019
Micro double-deck, a flywheel = bye-bye bass.

Today I concluded what I suspected from the beginning:  in the double-deck configuration I lost some bass. I know that Micro did some heavy mass stabilizers for their TT and some other companies did the same. People clamed that sound got “better”.  I always had suspicions about it and what I made my double-deck where the second deck acted effectively a stabilizing flywheel for a playing platter I felt that the effect was not as dramatic as people proposed. I might accept the upper mF range become very minorly smoother but the degree was warring with the forth of the belt. The lighter tension of the bell the less effect and at “normal” tension there is no effect from the “flywheel”. However what I did detect also that with the “flywheel” I was slightly close up at the very lowers bass. It was not major change, in fact it is very-very minor but it was there. Then I was looking at the installations of the guys who commented positively about the flywheel benefits… and I discovered that none of their speakers even were able to care lower bass. Well… this answers  the things...

Anyway, it is still might be becose the “specific belt” , or the belt's force or the motor,, or zilions of other resosns... but for now I use my double-deck TT one deck per time, switching a single belt from one platter to other when I need… (Thanks the layout and positioning of my motor allows me to do it)




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 52
Post ID: 3312
Reply to: 3309
The part of the belt
I am interested to determine from further reading if by "rubber" belts you mean anything as springy as rubber tubing or stapled bicycle tubes suggested by others.  It has been my own finding that the older pro-quality recording tape is as good as anything for driving a TT, and even silk or dacron thread works better than any sort of bungee-type belt.  I suppose that among other things this gets down to traction versus spring, and I am pretty sure that too much of the latter is always a bad thing in this particular application.

As for belt length, I have tried longer belts in order to move a drive motor away from the arm/cartridge, and I have listened to some 2-motor set-ups that used long belt free spans.  None have worked well, IMO, with diminished bass being the most obvious problem, and a loss of coherence a less obvious but no less important problem.

I have the non-scientific impression that drive belt length is best kept to a practical minimum, and I have jumped to the wild tentative conlusion that a longer belt can develop a strong-enough-to-matter harmonic resonance and even, at times, a resonance-within-a-resonance, a sort of ocillating resonance, if that makes sense.

Not that I would care if it sounded OK; but it doesn't.

But then, I have not yet heard what I would term a successful installation of a giant motor driving a 100 lb. platter, either.

Best regards,
Paul S
12-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
George
Posts 26
Joined on 03-23-2005

Post #: 53
Post ID: 3313
Reply to: 3312
Belt Creep
Here are some quotes from AA that I found interesting:

Rubber transmits vibration poorly, that's why it's used. Unfortunately this also means that it creates speed variation, mostly due to belt creep (NB I do NOT mean belt slip).

The motor is also coupled to the TT through its mountings and attempting to reduce noise transmission along this path is fraught with perils.

Flywheels offer advantages but these are often offset by the increase in belt creep that the extra couplings entail. This is so application specific that generalisations are worse than useless.

In my opinion the "one true path" is to ensure that the motor is as quiet as possible (cogless DC) and then reduce compliance in the transmission path as much as possible. Everything else is putting make-up on a pig.

and

The problem is that belt drives must lose speed around the drive pulley to work - there can be no transmission of force unless the tension difference in the belt is transferred to the drive pulley. Since the belt is elastic the tension difference must create a length difference. In turn this means the belt creeps against the pulley so the speed at which the belt is "taken up" is greater than the speed at which the belt is "let out". This speed difference depends on the torque demand from the table so any torque modulation creates speed variation. The simplest model of torque variation is that the torque reflected to the drive belt from primary stylus drag diminishes as the torque arm shortens across the record. This leads to an easy test - measure the speed with the stylus off the platter then cue the stylus at the lead in groove. Modulation drag is harder to estimate but will be proportional to the variability caculated by this method so it remains valid.

Just to knock two things on the head; Yes such small changes are perceptible, no no amount of platter mass can "fix" the energy lost due to belt creep, it just slows down the rate at which the speed changes. This will help with modulation drag indiced pitch change but not with drag induced rhythm changes.

============

I have not read about "belt creep" any where else. You can find more by searching "belt creep."




12-17-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 54
Post ID: 3314
Reply to: 3313
Slip, creep, belts, platter mass and idler wheel

I do not know if I agree, or take seriously belt creeping. Belt creeping is applicable for the systems where the speed or tension a variable. However, in the case of TT, where the speed and tension are constant the amount of belt creep is constant also. If so, then the belt creep as well as the belt slip are all equalized and “included” after a platter have reached its cruse speed. Not to mention that in context of platters large mass I think all contribution of all belt related issues become negligible. I think people build those theories about slipping and creping for defend type of transmissions – like power transmissions. In TT it would be a typical relatively-powerful motor driving some kind of 3 pounds acrylic platter. In this setting the torch on the motor is co-measurable with the torch of platter. However, if you have a very low torch motor and large mass platter then, I think, all bets off. I kind of always with irony look at the turntables when you turn motor on and the platter practically instantaneously hits 33prm. To me it is an indication that platter-motor coupling is wrong. I think the only “correct” coupling is possible if a motor and the belt can not drive the platter. You should turn motor and the platter should stay still. Then you push the platter with your hands and only then the motor and belt can stabilize it at 33rpm…

BTW, in largest Micro Seiki turntables are made exactly like this – motor could not start platter. However they resolved the problem, making it friendly, with very elegant solution. When you turn the “largest” Micro motors they begin to speed very violently with 10-20 times more speed then necessary. Usually it’s enough to give to a platter the initial “kick”. Then the Micro’s torch-sensor comes to play and it detects what contra-force the motor experience. if it detects that the platter is spinning with near-necessary speed then it drops torch monitoring, stabilize low voltage in motor and let it be. On my motor the voltage of the initial “kick” is 15V and the voltage of the “cruse” operation is about 4-5V. I think it is very elegant and very friendly solution. I never push my platter with hands…

Anyhow, another thing that I’m contemplating now in order to make both of my platters spinning is to drive one with belt and to drive another via an idler wheel. I think if I find a large enough, soft enough idler wheeland mount it on a proper arm then it might be an interesting to try. Now I need to find in garbage some kind Studer A810 and pull out of it the idler wheel arm assembly… :-) Here is how I visualize it…

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 55
Post ID: 3423
Reply to: 2777
say, is that an Audio Note cart?
I think you also mentioned that you were involved with the Voyd (which for a Pink Triangle user as I was back then, looked very charming). I recall Voyd being recently acquired by Audio Note UK; are you affiliated with them?

Anyway, I actually wanted to ask you something else. I need another TT to accomodate my mono cart (some people are not as lucky as Romy to have 8 arms hooked up to one TT!), and was interested by your comments on the SP10. Since I already got a Micro (mid-level model but can't lift anything heavier, my poor back), may as well try a DD I thought.

Any advice on what to watch out for when I browse through Yahoo Auction Japan for a SP10? Do you have any experience with the very popular Denons and Yamaha 2000GTs? Thanks very much.
01-02-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 56
Post ID: 3425
Reply to: 3423
Mono cartridges: please not here.

John, I had nothing to do with Voyd or Pink Triangle, I also not a big fan of Audio Note UK.

Mono cartridges is good, in fact I feel that Mono Cartridges IS A MUST for anyone who do analog more of less serious. Defiantly a second arm is more convenient then a second TT…

Anyhow I would like do not go into details about Mono cartridges as this is not the thread about cartridges. Very briefly juts to reply your question.  I had 4 Mono cartridges:

Denon 102
Ortofon  CG 25Dia
Ortofon  SPU MONO Ellipticalh
Ortofon  SPU MONO Conical

The cartridges are listed in the order of my preference in descending order with the best at the bottom. I do not know about any other mono cartridges.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 57
Post ID: 3426
Reply to: 3423
sorry I meant to respond to Guy Sergeant

with his photo and comments on his Technics SP10.
Inexperienced imbecile that I am in participating in thread discussions, my question went into limbo (and thank you for responding to it).

And thanks to you, I bought the SPU Mono some time back and now looking for a TT to permanently house it Smile

01-03-2007 Post mapped to one branch of Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 58
Post ID: 3427
Reply to: 3423
Adding a second tonearm vs. a second TT

 tokyo john wrote:
Anyway, I actually wanted to ask you something else. I need another TT to accomodate my mono cart (some people are not as lucky as Romy to have 8 arms hooked up to one TT!)...
John,

it was always my sentiment that it is much better (comfortable and functional) to have two tonearms then two turntables. If you have one turntable that you fell comfortable with, then it is always possible, with no expiations, to add a second arm. Yes, it might screw up the turntable cosmetic or resale value (if you care about such a thing) but a comfort of lowering a second arm without any hassles really overcomes all other considerations. I do not know what TT you have buy I defiantly would NOT go for a second TT - only if I need to put a Mono arm into the game. Even if you have the smaller “rectangular TT” then it is always possible to hard-attach an extra surface along with the top long side of your TT and use this new space as an arm-base for a second arm. Going for a longer arm in this setting is a most reasonable solution….

The problem that I see with two TT (and I commenting from my own experience) that you need to lift a record and put it on the other platter. I find it annoying. In my setup my right platter is my main platter and it has my most beloved arms and mono/stereo needles. This platter does over 95% of all play and I go for the left platter only if I would like to have “intentionally different sound”.

Frankly speaking using the double deck TT for a while (the same I presume would be for a second TT) I do not find the idea worth duplication. It is too much hassle for too little actual gain. If I were an audio professional why do listening and audio assessments for living (although those assholes do their audio evaluations by listening CDs over a telephone!!!)  then I see some justification for setting up multiple playback opportunities. But for music listening I feel 2, maximum 3 arms are enough. More is worse. I never understood why people have multiple turntables with zillion arms and now after years of using the multiple turntables with zillion arms I understand it even less.

So, John, do not let yours to slide into the irrationalism of multiple platters: juts “glue” a second Mono arm to you TT and it will be it.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-03-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
tokyo john
Narashino, Japan
Posts 36
Joined on 01-31-2006

Post #: 59
Post ID: 3428
Reply to: 3427
octopussied
Dear Romy,

Thank you for the advice.

Yes, I believe I can hard-attach another arm to my current TT if I sacrifice the dust cover. I am going to have to give it some serious consideration.

I think many people end up with multi-TTs with a zillion arms because we have a soft spot for tone-arms and cartridges. I should be happy with two (stereo and mono), but sometimes I cannot go to sleep thinking about all the arms and carts I need to collect before they go out of production. Yes, it is some kind of sick-ness....

Again, thanks for the advise and for running the most useful, interesting and brutally honest website in audio. If my business does well in 2007, I ought to send you a Ikeda long arm as a present!


A fellow Nietzsche fan,
John
01-04-2007 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
guy sergeant
United Kingdom
Posts 260
Joined on 08-03-2004

Post #: 60
Post ID: 3430
Reply to: 3428
SP10's etc
Hi John,

I was involved with the Voyd originally. I have no connection with AN UK now except that I use one of their UK made Io cartridges.

With regard to the SP10 Mk2 I like it very much. It removes any sense that a record is playing. I use a 10mm polycarbonate mat on it which to my ears gives a more natural presentation of lower frequencies than the supplied rubber mat. It is also ergonomically a joy to use. One of Arthur Khoubesserian's Funk Achromats would also worth trying if cut down to 293mm diameter.

If looking for one now, I would try to avoid ex radio station ones particularly if they have the additional pitch control electronics (unless you are an avid 78's collector). I'm not convinced by the overpriced Technics Obsidian plinth either. Mine is fitted to a Stirling Broadcast Corian plinth but I'm not sure these are still available now. Mine also has the magnetic brake disengaged. If you have any electronics capability it may be worth updating some of the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply purely for reasons of longevity although many of these machines that have been in regular use still seem to work perfectly well.

If you see the much rarer SP10 MK3 you should definitely consider that. It was possibly the ultimate expression of Direct Drive.
Page 3 of 4 (61 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Ultimate Turntable..  Techdas Designer Hideaki Nishikawa R.I.P...  Analog Playback Forum     220  1266457  05-31-2004
  »  New  My Analog Playback: the fat lady has sung..  My analog setup update....  Analog Playback Forum     9  115158  04-04-2006
  »  New  Maria Callas’s Glory Days: Available in Europe..  Here you are...  Musical Discussions  Forum     3  44755  08-26-2007
  »  New  Micro Seiki SZ-1T..  I guess it's my own fault....  Analog Playback Forum     2  35381  06-10-2008
  »  New  The Foolishness of Analog People..  Late to the discussion but cannot resist...  Analog Playback Forum     56  559961  01-30-2006
  »  New  A turntable platter as a turbine?..  A turntable platter as a turbine?...  Analog Playback Forum     0  15867  10-27-2010
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