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10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 21
Post ID: 3000
Reply to: 2999
Re: It might be an interesting project….
 Romy the Cat wrote:

I can’t see the pictures. What I was thinking to connect the ribbon’s array in series and drive them with one custom better Bad’s transformer. Or perhaps if it were I would say .3R ribbons then 5-6 drivers would make a couple Ohms and this impedance would be possible to drive by a dedicated HF channel with a special OPT, eliminating that, perhaps compromised, China-made transformer in the each tweeter… What do you think?  It might be an interesting project….


Yes, afraid the pics are gone.
With respect to the second idea - already there. Have the aircore OPTs ready wound to do a 3500:0.5 stepdown...

The only issue I can think of is to ensure one has an extremely good, very low ohmic series connection between the ribbons. Otherwise I think it's the way to go...

If I can find my crummy digital camera I will take some pics.

cheers
cv
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
cv
Derby, United Kingdom
Posts 173
Joined on 09-15-2004

Post #: 22
Post ID: 3001
Reply to: 3000
Tweeter sensitivity measurements
Allo Romy

Ok, I managed to get my measurement setup running. Behringer ECM8000/PC soundcard kind of thing.
I measured the following tweeters:

Focal TLR
TAD PT-R9
Aurum Cantus G1
Fane 5022

I don't have an absolute level calibrator and I need to take time to try and make the measurements accurately, ensuring the distances are correct in each case.

But having said that, if we assume each of these drivers is an 8 ohm load (I left the signal level and gains untouched), then I measured, in relative terms, sensitivities commensurate with the makers figures.

In other words, the TLRs (rated at about 95db/W and coming with individual calibrated response plots) were a db or two less sensitive than the PTR9s, which in turn were a bit less sensitive than the G1s.

Early indications are that the 102db/W is off for the G1. They don't sound like 102db either. But I think the PTR9 spec would seem to be honest, at least with my units. The Fane has such a crappy humped response it's impossible to draw any conclusions there!

Anyway,  this is very rough - will try and find time to take some more careful measurements later in the week, hopefully tomorrow.

cheers
cv
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 23
Post ID: 3002
Reply to: 2994
in defense of EnABL-ing drivers.

Gentlemen,

I suppose it is time to defend my sterling reputation here. The EnABL process does in deed work across the full frequency band. Works on all driver types and permits the very qualities that Romy seems to appreciate in the treated Linneum tweeters.

The process controls the boundary layer, absolutely. Since the boundary layer of any emitter completely describes what can and cannot be emitted into the adjacent air, or water, to control it's spurious ringing, without deconstructing the coherent transient information in both micro and macro signals, is rather important. Since the boundary layer is amenable to lateral control mechanisms, being a carrier of lateral compression waves as they express into the adjacent medium over a period of time, a low mass diffraction grating at both ends of the membrane will perform a multitude of important functions.
The simulation of an infinite length between terminus edges. In this the energy density in the boundary layer, through the flat wave diffraction grating, is far greater than on either side of the grating. This forces energy that has passed through and is now at the edge of the membrane to exit the edge. This remaining energy will exit in phase and time coherence, with the energy already expanding into the adjacent air. Theoretically there are tiny diffraction artifacts from the grating blocks, back into the boundary layer, but they are extremely small in amplitude and have no chance to form a standing wave.
The elimination of null emitter bands within the boundary layer allows phase and time coherent emission into the surrounding air as the wave front crosses the emitter surface.
The amount of mass required to effect this control in a 6.5" mid/woofer is equivalent to writing your name, in script on an 8.5" X 11" piece of paper with a ball point ink pen. This relationship holds true regardless of the size of the emitter being processed. So, this is not a bulk mass damping system. It is instead a mass damping, of sorts, of the boundary layer, in the lateral plane only. Since the boundary layer is a very low mass high energy area, a small amount of mass, relative to the total emitter diaphragm mass, is all that is required for complete control of reflected energy that would otherwise form standing waves.

What has always fascinated me about this process is that it works on woofers, well below their natural piston point, so it even controls the emitted energy with wave lengths far greater than the dimensions between rows of the applied pattern.

What it removes is exactly what Romy is complaining of, the uncorrelatable sound that is left over as transient ringing, from the passage of a wave across an emitter surface. It also brings some other benefits but this is the most important one and a full range system controlled in this fashion does not emit ANY spurious information. Nor does it exhibit ANY colorations from the drivers. Nor does it have any "location" perceivable in a stereo spread. And last but not least, there are no limits to the resolution available.

I am aware that this sounds fishy, many others have made the same claims and then failed to perform. I welcome any audiophile, who cares to journey to the west coast, to come by and listen to a full range system treated in this fashion.

You can even poke and prod around, looking for the hidden alternate reality generators.

This is real and it does work.

Bud
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 24
Post ID: 3003
Reply to: 2999
Arum Cantus, big ribbons, and tweeter arrays
It is my understanding that the only reason to make a ribbon bigger is to get it to go lower in frequency.  I don't know how Arum Cantus configures their G1, and I have not heard it so I cannot say if it is their "best" pure HF driver rather than just another attempt to cover more octaves with the ribbon.  I can report that the G2Si loses the "glycerin" at 10k with the ML2s, but, sadly, they may not even meet their lower efficiency specs, either.  I can also say that many of these ribbons are not very linear, at all, and it might be hard to calculate sound from specs, so what you actually hear is what you get.  I think some ribbons go down to 2R.

Conventional wisdom suggests a line array with multiple tweeters, and I have heard some good ones.  However, my old RTR ESR6 electrostatic tweeter arrays were each 6 small panels, 3 over 3, with a horizontal "arc" the equivalent of 3 segments of a decagon; not much of an arc; firing out (of course).  The top 3 also fired slightly up and the bottom 3 also fired slightly down.  In other words, the things fired out both horizontally and vertically, like the segments in some large segmented horns.  This worked very well, indeed, although not strong enough down to 7.5k Hz, so I overlapped them with Peerless tweeters that crapped out as the 'stats came on stronger, around 10k.

I don't know if this translates into anything useful with small ribbons, per se, but it has to say something about HF sound transmission in general.

I have had good luck with zalytron.com, and also e-speakers.com, whch also sells replacement ribbons.  I think both places sell Arum Cantus at decent prices.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 25
Post ID: 3004
Reply to: 3001
Ribbons - Chris the winner?

 cv wrote:
Ok, I managed to get my measurement setup running. Behringer ECM8000/PC soundcard kind of thing.
I measured the following tweeters:

Focal TLR
TAD PT-R9
Aurum Cantus G1
Fane 5022

I don't have an absolute level calibrator and I need to take time to try and make the measurements accurately, ensuring the distances are correct in each case.

But having said that, if we assume each of these drivers is an 8 ohm load (I left the signal level and gains untouched), then I measured, in relative terms, sensitivities commensurate with the makers figures.

In other words, the TLRs (rated at about 95db/W and coming with individual calibrated response plots) were a db or two less sensitive than the PTR9s, which in turn were a bit less sensitive than the G1s.

Early indications are that the 102db/W is off for the G1. They don't sound like 102db either. But I think the PTR9 spec would seem to be honest, at least with my units. The Fane has such a crappy humped response it's impossible to draw any conclusions there!

Anyway,  this is very rough - will try and find time to take some more careful measurements later in the week, hopefully tomorrow.

Well, Chris, I need to check out my other PT-R9 driver. Perhaps the one that I tried was discharged … I do not think so but I will do it within a day or so.

BTW, currently my completion for more interesting high sensitively ribbon tweeter looks like coming to the end and it is possibly that you will be the winner. I spoke today for a quite long time with the proposed by you RAAL’s Alex and I like the guy quite a lot. He has very valuable from my point of view combination of knowledge and desire to use his expertise in applied manner to benefit the objectives of my project. I have very-very pleasant feeling about him and I very much like how he thinks. We did not decided yet but perhaps we can cook a custom 107dB ribbon driver. If we move forward then you will be declared a winner and that BMW Z4 Roadster will be shipped to you.

Thanks,
Romy the Cat

PS added in a few hours: Chriss, I juts got another PT-R9 from the box. I did not measure it but just A/B the subjective output of the both tweeters and I confirmed that they are identical. I was pretty convinced that it would be the case. The only explanation that I might see is in the efficiency of my room at HF. I have, as you remember, quite a lot of going on in my room that reduces the room response at HF (all that hanging thing, the book and record shelves, the cats t-shorts and so on…) Perhaps it is that eats the affectivity HF in my room. 9dB, Hm, quite a lot! I never consider my room over-dumped but it defiantly never was “live”. I really am not wiling to change anything with the sound of my room. Probably it is better to continue beaching about the tweeters manufactures….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 26
Post ID: 3005
Reply to: 3003
How to kill the ribbonninnessththzzz?

 Paul S wrote:
I can report that the G2Si loses the "glycerin" at 10k with the ML2s….

I concur with this finding. Any ribbon tweeter that I heard has "glycerin" tone but it is because the ribbon mostly crossed too low. I would say that I still head some trace of the "glycerin" at 10K with second order but I have no trace of it at 13K. It would certainly wary from driver to driver but definitely a ribbon sharply closed at 10K sound nothing like a ribbon crossed at 6K. I still do not know what I will end up but I at this point do not worry about the ribbon's alien glycerin tone. Cross ribbon higher and use HF capable MF drivers -  it would be the best solution do not poison system’s sound with the “ribbonninnessththzzz”….

The caT.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 27
Post ID: 3006
Reply to: 3005
big ribbons, small ribbons, silk and air
I'm wondering if part of this "glycerin" sound of ribbons is just "ribbon sound", or purely frequency dependent, or if it has to do with the size of a given ribbon at a given frequency.  But why should ribbons not be subjected to the same demands typically made of other drivers, that one or two drivers can do "full-range"?  I have never disected an Apogee speaker, which, as I recall, used ribbons of different sizes for various frequencies, just like most "full range" planar speakers have divided driving membranes.  Only, no telling how large (or small, for that matter) a given ribbon was for any given frequency, and no telling how many octaves - or which octaves - a ribbon was asked to do.  The ribbon in an Arum Cantus G2Si is pretty darn small, and based on my own experience with this driver, I doubt if there is any way it could be made to sound right at the lower end of its stated frequency response range.  Anyway, I think silk domes can do a better job with those somewhat lower frequencies, and those I have tried just die off naturally by themselves as the frequency rises.  In my experience, adding the dynamic HF-capable MF speaker to the true HF-only driver can improve a drum kit in terms of pitch, timbre and sorted-out-ness, and it can put the music's "air" where it belongs, in the sound of the instruments, not on or around it.

The trouble with all this is the same as the trouble with all multi-driver speakers: integration, including voicing and level matching.  OTOH, I think the voicing is easier at the higher frequencies; it's more a matter of finding a sound you can live with.

Piezos, anyone?

Best regards,
Paul S
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 28
Post ID: 3007
Reply to: 3002
But what of HF membranes?
Your explanations make it fairly easy to understand both the problem and conceptual solution in your terms.  It's the actual, mechanical solution that I have trouble with.

Unless you can somehow alter/vary the application index of this process I have no idea how it can apply equally to the heaviest woofers and the lightest "super" tweeters, some of which weigh almost nothing, by critical design.

Not only that, but consider that although all membranes suffer from the same problem in the generic sense, the frequencies in question will vary according to a host of accountable and practically-unaccountable factors.

And before you say that it is not frequency dependent, please just start with the opposite ends of the audible spectrum.

If I understand what you are doing - at all - then it may be that the best use of this would be as a part of the manufacturing process, where the mass and the very nature of your "friendly", EnABL-ed material could be part of the driver's design.

Again, not to cry foul, but it should be obvious that I do not understand how this process could entirely work in practice.

As you can see from my header, I am in the San Diego area.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-23-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Handful of Qubits
Posts 4
Joined on 07-09-2004

Post #: 29
Post ID: 3008
Reply to: 3005
Re: High crossover points
I'm currently using a pair of LCY-100K ribbon drivers with their built-in crossovers. While they are supposedly 2nd order electrically, the actual response I measure looks rather more like 3rd order rolloff below that point. No comments about their tone, yet - still too much going on with the system. As my MF drivers (Yamaha 6681Bs) drop like rocks at about 11kHz, I definitely feel the need for some reinforcement above. The 100Ks probably wouldn't suit your purpose, though, being more like 98dB/1W/1m.
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bud
upper left crust united snakes
Posts 87
Joined on 07-07-2005

Post #: 30
Post ID: 3009
Reply to: 3007
No problem with HF membranes

Paul

The entire pattern shrinks and grows geometrically, based upon the physical length of the edge of diaphragm involved. Please understand, this is not just a theoretical idea, I do and have done this process on many different types and sizes of drivers. I even have a basic amount of pattern application that is quite generic and has worked with equal success in all cases.

Please look above, for either the PDF or the link to a published copy and read the white paper for the EnABL process. It discuses the various types of causes for driver induced transient standing waves. There are some standing waves that cannot be treated with this process, but, since the driver engineering revolution two decades ago, there are very few drivers left with this sort of endemic limitation.

So, the pattern is applied with a technical pen, using a scaled pattern based upon the physical sizes involved, for the normally tiny drivers used in high frequency applications.
When the driver sizes scale beyond these pens I use calligraphy pens for their uniform flow rate and variety of sizes. With these simple tools I can treat anything from .5" in diameter dome to an 18" in diameter woofer with the same materials, though the material when used in the technical pens is thinned by a specific amount.
I am only interested in the few thousandths of an inch on any driver surface that comprises the boundary layer. And that few thousandths of an inch does control the rest of the drivers standing wave characteristics. This is really just a matter of having found the proper fulcrum.

I am located in the Seattle area, so we are quite far apart by horseback. UPS and FED EX do a pretty good job of carrying boxes full of speakers back and forth though......

Bud
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 31
Post ID: 3010
Reply to: 3006
A French-made piezo tweeter…

 Paul S wrote:
Piezos, anyone?Paul S

I have a local friend of mine lent me PHY TW37 tweeter. It is French-made piezo driver:

http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/TW37_E.html

I was running it last night and it was not as horrendous as I was expected. In fact it was almost nice. I do feel some “heaviness” in the sound of this driver, perhaps because it has fixed 12db/octave filter at 10kHz (too low for me) of because it users a relatively heavy paper cone. Also, the topmost region is kind of “dullish” to be a tweeter. I would feel more comfortable to use this driver as a “lower HF tweeter” then the “all-around tweeter”. I think that the “heaviness” in this tweet might be also because it futures a cone that sits in the moth of a little horn-like… horn and effectively acts as a reentry horn. The “horn-like horn” is filled with cotton that does absorb the highest frequency but should be less absorbent for lower knee of the HF.

PHY_Tweeter.jpg

Anyhow, dispute of everything, form this French-made piezo driver sounded more balanced then I expected. The biggest problem, in my case, was that this tweeter does have a deferent sound with my Vitavox S2 driver. If with Linaeum/TAD PT-R9 ribbons I might set them in a way that a deference between S2 and Linaeum/TAD PT-R9 would not be acknowledgeable then with PHY TW37 I was not able to do so It is not only about the fixed crossover point of the TW37 but rather different ability to be accelerated with dynamic and frequency range between this tweeter and my MF driver. All of this creates a different “feeling” of Sound…

Stull, the ribbons so far are leading the race…

Rgs,
Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 32
Post ID: 3011
Reply to: 3010
Crossing over way up there
OK, I guess I am a little confused about how you get * enough * acceptable tweeter-less sound above 10k Hz that you can wait to cross over at 13k Hz.  I don't know the Vitavox S2.  Are you saying the S2 goes strong, clean and in character to 13k?  If so, that could be a real break.

If a piezo is going to integrate, it seems like it would have its best chance way up there, as piezos are especially known for dropping bats in full flight and chasing rodents from grain silos.  The Phy is like audio jewelry, for sure; but maybe something with less mass would have a better shot at this, given the high crossover?  I am not being snide when I say that it seems like less would be more at the frequency you want.

Best regards,
Paul S
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 33
Post ID: 3012
Reply to: 3011
.... "strong, clean and in character"

Vitavox S2 does OK up to 12.5K ("strong, clean and in character") on it’s center but I never use this driver pointed directly to me but rather at good 20 degree off. (I hardly can tolerate any compression driver point directly to me). At my angle the S2 in my 400Hz horn is well attenuated, more civilized and behaves more or less appropriately. In my listening position S2 does approximately 10K but the numbers are kind of meaningless in there as the HF “transient feel” is still there. In fact juts with S2 and no tweeter is it VERY much listenable, I do not know how to explain it though. Any tweeter, of any topology that I’ve used, if I set it to 10-11K made everything too bright. Or better I would not say “too bright” but rather “too unnecessary” as it screw with the “S2’s transient phantom presents”. I feel that in the world of HF it is not exactly about measurements (at least to me) but rather to dial-in the exact necessary amount of HF’s touch – juts a very-very slight inflection atop and it is it. The S2 is not Altec and not JBL and it does not need “help with HF” but rather “a complement of HF”. I do not know now other people but when I try to add HF to S2 driver I always have problems with the fact that I drive a tweeter at so low level that it is become not effective at all. In any case, it is relay hard to describe it as it need to be heard to understand how it works. When I turn volume control on my dedicated separate Milq that drives now tweeters and when I set this volume at the level when I feel it is “enough” then my RTA shows many-many db down at 12K (and my instrumental microphone is well calibrated). I never had a tweeter that I would be able to listen at -3dB at 12K. Anyhow, I hope ribbons would help me to fix this tendency…. if it need to be fixed…

Rgs,
Romy the caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 34
Post ID: 3014
Reply to: 3012
Sounds like a ribbon or small electrostatic panels
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who is overwhelmed by compression drivers.  I tried the A7s way back when they were current and everyone's favorite, and I tried various modifications with like-minded friends; but I came to the conclusion that the only way to do the horn thing would be with theater-type "dedicated" amps driving narrow band horns that did not really load down into their horns.  It was just too much for me at the time, and I lost interest in the horns.  And now you say that you still have to listen well off axis...

I know one can't be certain in advance, but the way you describe your high frequency wants, it sounds like a perfect fit for either a small ribbon or a small 'stat, or an array of either. A lone ribbon may actually have some horizontal dispersion, but the electrostatic panel really benefits from the array, which eliminates that beam-y quality and that stupid in-and-out thing when you move you head at all.  I hate that!

I have to say that the only "problem" I had with the 'stat array was the lowest end of its range, where the Peerless tweeters were about perfect in every way EXCEPT STRENGTH, and even the electrostatic array could not match the perfection of the Peerless at this frequency.  I found myself constantly wanting to somehow turn up the Peerless at it's top end rather than brining up the electrostat in order to make the correct level!  Just the opposite, I suppose, of what most people might suppose.

Are you thinking of a 1st order crossover starting maybe just a * little bit * lower?  I agree that the "right' top end should blend and agree with your best driver, and the "right" ribbon should do this, I think.

But who knows, really?  I guess if it were really all that easy we would be done a long time ago!

And I will say again that I'm not in this for DIY; I really would just buy everything if I thought I could wind up with what I wanted that way!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-24-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 35
Post ID: 3015
Reply to: 3014
Re: small electrostatic panels.. with sensitivety 66dB?

 Paul S wrote:
I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who is overwhelmed by compression drivers.  I tried the A7s way back when they were current and everyone's favorite, and I tried various modifications with like-minded friends; but I came to the conclusion that the only way to do the horn thing would be with theater-type "dedicated" amps driving narrow band horns that did not really load down into their horns.  It was just too much for me at the time, and I lost interest in the horns.  And now you say that you still have to listen well off axis...

In fact Altec drivers are too soft anyhow. The real secret in this (people juts do not get it) is to make the properly operating horn line-array, properly ingrate them and balance the entire sound, allowing the off axis equalization (particularly with phase plug drivers)…  But it would be a subject for other thread...

 Paul S wrote:
I know one can't be certain in advance, but the way you describe your high frequency wants, it sounds like a perfect fit for either a small ribbon or a small 'stat, or an array of either. A lone ribbon may actually have some horizontal dispersion, but the electrostatic panel really benefits from the array, which eliminates that beam-y quality and that stupid in-and-out thing when you move you head at all.  I hate that!

I was thinking about the electrostats for years. I hate how they sound and I think that heard a lot of them. The problem is that to do the electrostats properly - direct couple them to 3kV plate - it juts too much work to do for a driver the will be covering 1/3 octaves…

 Paul S wrote:
And I will say again that I'm not in this for DIY; I really would just buy everything if I thought I could wind up with what I wanted that way!

It is EXECLY how I feel. If I have somebody to whom I would pay to renders my requirements then I would never bother to educate myself on the subject HOW it might be done. Somebody who “can” is loosing a lot of money not to having my phone number in his phonebook.

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 36
Post ID: 3016
Reply to: 3015
But which 1/3 octave???
Yes, both ends of the spectrum are tough to integrate with a quality MF.

Of course, electrostats have no "push", but they seem to do all right (understatement) just supplementing way up there, in an array.

The thing is, the "big" ribbons and 'stats are made big to go low, and this is not something you desire.

So I think it gets down to using the "small" HF-only units and deciding whether you want to experiment with getting the levels where you want them.  Surely there MUST be some HE HF-only ribbons by now, since most all concerts are amplified these days and "super" ribbons have become very popular for this use.  OTOH, I have no idea whether the needs of concert venue sound reinforcement would translate any better into your home system than the typical small hi-fi ribbon would.  I can't imagine any of the TAD pro stuff I've heard in my living room.  I want to keep my teeth!

Bob Fulton's version of the RTR ESR6 was *about* 90 dB (and not more), with his cheap-o network and little transformer, and I think he actually divided the panels for "high" and "low", even in their narrow band!  He was an odd duck, and cheap to a fault; but he had amazing ears!  Lots of his ideas were just plain nuts, though.  Needless to say, he quickly abandoned his good idea in favor of cheaper, inferior all-dynamic stuff, which is why the RTR/Peerless stuff is so sought after.

The RTRs are mostly in the hands of freaks now, as far as I know.  I sold mine to Joe Cursio, "The Dynaco Doctor", a while back, and he also bought my Peerless dynamic tweeters.  At the time I couldn't find the right amps for the whole set-up, and I did not want to or need to break it up; Joe had known and worked with Fulton, and he took it all.

I am not sure if the G2Si ribbons are any "better" overall, but they have fewer problems as far as higher-efficiency implementation is concerned, that's for sure, and, like I said before, the ML2s seem to "force" the match.

BTW, if you find a cheap, easy way to do this, I will follow quickly!

Best regards,
Paul S
10-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 37
Post ID: 3017
Reply to: 3016
...Unless you (re)consider a higher sensitivity bog-standard tweet
...say like a Supravox at around 99dB: http://www.supravox.fr/mesures/mestg11.htm for some measurements and http://www.supravox.fr/haut_parleurs/tg1.htm for data. They rate it for 98dB but when I heard it, it measured a bit more at over 11kH or so.

It has reasonable horizontal dispersion & phase characteristics. I listened to it coupled to their 8" wide-band electromagnet driver (215) crossed s/where hi up -- not sure but ~10k I assume. Interestingly, it was perceptible when playing alone, but inoffensive and barely perceptible when playing together with the 215. It sort of "enhanced" the 215 rathre than added to it... the sound without it (i.e. only the 215 playing, the tweet disconnected) had a slightly harsher flavour to it.

OTOH, playing by itself it was perceptible -- maybe it's that titanium dome -- but not at teeth-cleaning levels. Maybe that gold coating offers more than just aesthetics...
10-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 38
Post ID: 3018
Reply to: 3017
...coming to think of it
and having run through this discussion it seems to me that most tweets are crap -- in that they're stand alone, not easily mated with other quality drivers: the moment you end up with a higher sensitivity, good performance (or better) MF, you're doomed. Either you try 69.000 tweets and hope for sonic matching, or you forgo the tweet altogether. You can of course compromise: it's "almost there". I've heard this myriads of times from diyers (and some manufacturers as well). It always remains "almost there". It never "gets there".

Put another way, it  looks to me like one is obliged to find a tweet one can bear/like/don't want to run away from, and then build a speaker around it. But then you may not like what is available for the rest of the bunch. So, of course, you go heavy on the region up ~10-11kHz and hope to find a solution thereafter.

As noted before, if only there were someone ready to provide the solutions, I could be another source of money. In fact, if I could just say to s/one what I want, and that s/one would do the implementation...
I'm ready to provide examples and refs, to sit with him/her, to try out things, whatever, to help out -- as long as he listens.
A dream. 
10-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gregm
Greece
Posts 91
Joined on 02-16-2005

Post #: 39
Post ID: 3019
Reply to: 3018
...coming to think of it --2
Sorry to keep returning like this. Thought I;d mention a tweet that unexpectedly impressed me favourably -- the Murata ESTD01 (these are their "serious" tweets -- not the "audiophile" tweets).
Nice. Directly connected, enters strong at ~14kHz, by itself without crossing help; it RMS's at 20W continuous -- OK. Resonance at around 105kHz they say. Nice, unobtrusive, made a good/excellent contribution to a sound system... BUT, that system is 91dB give or take a smidgen...

BUT, again, we fall back to a rating just over 90dB @ 10-12kHz, and it is VERY expensive... I suppose one would have to build a spkr around it (why would one do that?).

On a more positive note, it was very nice paired to a EX4 Lowther+ 150Hz tractrix. Very strange -- the EX4 system hits s/thing like 105dB...???
10-25-2006 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,571
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 40
Post ID: 3020
Reply to: 3012
Re: .... "strong, clean and in character"
Romy:

Going back, you said:

"Vitavox S2 does OK up to 12.5K ("strong, clean and in character") on it’s center but I never use this driver pointed directly to me but rather at good 20 degree off. (I hardly can tolerate any compression driver point directly to me). At my angle the S2 in my 400Hz horn is well attenuated, more civilized and behaves more or less appropriately. In my listening position S2 does approximately 10K but the numbers are kind of meaningless in there as the HF “transient feel” is still there. In fact juts with S2 and no tweeter is it VERY much listenable,"

Looking at this again, it seems like you could come in with the "right" SMALL tweeter at 10k, still off-axis, just to bring up your "sense" of the upper frequencies.  In fact, I think your system being set up for off-axis listening should help rather than hurt here.

IMO, SMALL ribbons and 'stats can do this "enhancement" without creating an obvious HF "source" that pulls your ears and "eyes".  Although I do listen on axis sometimes, I am not at all stuck with it, and I have got my own small ribbons set up pretty much like I had the RTR 'stats, as "enhancement" rather than dental drills.  No way could one of these small ribbons do acceptable HF by itself, and I doubt it would pass a "solo" listening test.

Best regards,
Paul S
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