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   Home » Audio Discussions » The Loudspeaker (Troels Gravesen project); Finally! (46 posts, 3 pages)
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09-23-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,702
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 41
Post ID: 27606
Reply to: 27605
Visaton Horns
Thanks, Rick, but I used Visaton TL16H  horns, and I am quoite happy with the results, as I share in the thread.
Did you build the TL1s?

Best regards
Paul S
09-30-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 42
Post ID: 27608
Reply to: 27605
I may be
 rickmcinnis wrote:
Just noticing this.
I have a pair of those VIAWAVE tweeters if you are interested in them.
Have no need for them.

I may be interested to experiment with Dannoys. Feel free to email me the details (version, condition, price etc)
Best,jarek


Cheers,
Jarek
11-19-2024 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,702
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 43
Post ID: 27705
Reply to: 27608
"Advice" on The Loudspeakers
So far, the The Loudspeakers have handled everything I have tasked them with, and I have actually gotten a lot more in the way of Music than I imagined I would when I started with The Loudspeakers. I haven’t tried to alter these speakers in any way as I have explored what they can do. Rather, I have moved the speakers around and tried different listening positions, and I have played with “tuning” my source gear, including cable swaps and messing with my tonearm and cartridge settings, also driver loading in my phono stage. I have mentioned that The Loudspeakers are “very revealing”, and this quality gives me not only unmatched Music playback but it also allows me to “look into” the contributions of the various components that make up my system. Components I do not mess with are my amps; my TVC (transformer-based volume control); the (Chimera) IC cables between my TVC and my amps; my T3000 SUT; CD transport; DAC (already messed with by John Wright). Everything else is subject to tweaking, although I very seldom mess with my TT, and rarely my tonearm, apart from VTA, which I quickly check and set for every LP, according to the repeatable VTA system I developed. I hope it augers well that I tweak less and less as time passes, as I have settled in with this system that includes The Loudspeakers.  I wish for everyone the Joy I derive from Great Music that The Loudspeakers have made available to me.
 
In closing, I want to repeat two important considerations for anyone pondering The Loudspeaker project. First, not all amps are going to drive The Loudspeakers. Do your homework and be sure you choose your amps wisely, based on the loads The Loudspeaker drivers and X/Os impose, also the exponential demands The Loudspeakers make on amps if you want them to be as dynamic as they can be. Second, I repeat, I very strongly recommend NOT changing Troels’ design in any way until you have gotten the best from the stock design, which might take you a year or more. Above all, do not second guess Troels’ design or ass-u-me you can improve on it by rounding corners, adding ports, tweaking X/Os, changing drivers or driver locations, etc., etc., and if you do, don’t complain when your speakers disappoint you. Lastly, I am very glad I chose the Visaton TL16H super tweeter, but it did take a while for the drivers to break in. Also, the TL16H is dynamic and extended enough that you will absolutely hear your front end with this super tweeter! I do not think the TL16H is “hard” at all, but it is very “revealing”, for sure. If you need a “soft” tweeter to compensate for system problems, do not choose the TL16H. 
   
Paul S
01-11-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,702
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 44
Post ID: 27889
Reply to: 27705
4-Way Minimum for Bruckner?

Recent posts about the limitations of 2-way loudspeakers have got me thinking (again) about my own thoughts and processes in developing The Loudspeakers that I am using now. It might surprise some people to hear that I was not trying to find “the best possible loudspeakers”, rather I simply wanted a system that would render Bruckner (and other Big Music) in a way that would allow me to listen to it “deeply”, as I have been accustomed to listening to smaller works for many years. I wanted to re-purpose as much of my system as possible, except I was saying goodbye to a separately powered center channel that I had explored for over 10 years. After my 5 years of experience with Lamm ML2s I knew I wanted more power, preferably a lot more power, without sacrificing the wonderful sound the ML2s are known for.  A “plus” for me would be that I would not “need” sub-woofers, and I aimed for 1 amp for each (right and left) side. I developed a plan over the 10-year course of experiments with vintage driver “stacks”, and I continued to weigh that information against high-powered amps I was listening to on a more and more regular basis, trying to keep everything inter-related in my mind. I found my amps (Marantz MA-9S2s) before I found speakers I wanted, and I worked with these amps for quite a while before choosing new speakers, keeping the amps in mind. After all that I had reasons based on listening to believe that the least I could use for Bruckner was 4-driver speakers, with 18” woofers. I really wrung out the MA-9S2s before I pulled the trigger on The Loudspeakers, and the project took me a long time. I basically “crossed my fingers” regarding the modern drivers The Loudspeakers used. When I finished the speakers it did not take me long to figure out I was on the right track. One thing I am sure of now is that, indeed,  a big 4-way is the minimum for Bruckner for me. To my ears, drivers need less rather than more to do in terms of frequency response. Of course, this has to be weighed against crossovers, etc. How nice that my current system does most Music better than previous systems, and it is at least comparable on all fronts, including those where my previous system excelled. If thinking less than 4-way speakers for Bruckner, think again about LF, and think about how high you want an LF driver to go. Likewise, think about the top of the frequency range, how low you want that driver to go. If 3 octaves or less per driver, you are at 4-ways. I was at 4-ways. It’s working fine. As far as the amps are concerned, I don’t know what I would have done had I not found them. They are a critical part of “the speaker system” as I have embedded it in my system. The MA-9S2s have their own thread, as do other elements in my current system.>>


Paul S

01-11-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,248
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 45
Post ID: 27891
Reply to: 27889
I would not count channels per composer.
I do not think it is intellectually honest to say how many channels you need for Bruckner and how many for Mozart. The number of channels is greatly derivative from a type of the drivers, type of buffer, amplification, room and many other factors. I truly do not know why two channels do not work. I also do not know if my personal multichannel result of through multiple channels or result of multi-amplification, as I did not use a single amplifier since 2000. Still, there is absolutely nothing we should prevent food channel acoustic system to be successful and I have no idea when it is never is. I have seen a few times a relatively small monitors made from very contemporary synthetic drivers which actually able to bare the load but they were so sonically important even with a small signal that when they did not collapse with complex signal it was only because there was no decent level from which they can collapse. 

Couple days ago I visited a local audio guy who has exceptionally interesting electronics and it was 2-channel monitor from that i celebrated Pennsylvania idiot who so sell his speakers through Robb Report. Those pictures were equally dead and presented 50 shadows of gray very identically and small signal and with large signal. So from certain prospective, those loudspeakers did maintain integrity, because they were identical garbage with small and large signal. Another two companies which have very similar quality are TAD and Dynoaudio. I remember my local algae guy have exceptionally expensive Dynoaudio installation and the way how they found it with all five channels who was so hilarious. It was just different volumes of completely gray sound, free from any evidence of any adjectives in the sound.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
01-11-2025 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,702
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 46
Post ID: 27892
Reply to: 27891
Which 3-ways?
By "Bruckner" I mean Big Music like that, not just Bruckner. Naturally, how I got where I am from where I was might have nothing in it for others. I speak for myself and trust them to figure it out. A 15" bottom end might allow a 3-way, but that's what you have with the Rebel++, and that's what I had with my BassZillas. I think closing gaps between drivers is not so easy. I agree about the dead sound audiophiles settle for. It made amp shopping very difficult. 
Paul S
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