09-09-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 21 Post ID: 27240 Reply to: 27238 Seasoning to Taste Just trying to put your own observations about the RI, etc. in some sort of context, Edgar, since the idea of "better" RI seasoning seems to be moot at present. As it happens, I actually like the general notion that "quality does not matter" for RI, which was +/- an original tenet. However, I personally feel differently about the main channels, as you seem to, as well, given your remarks about properly structured harmonics. Romy has gone on at considerable length about his system and listening and musical preferences, as have I regarding my own, hoping to create some context, in the interests of furthering discussion, and hopefully understanding. What good is knowing what processor you use if that's all I know? Best regards, Paul S

09-09-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Edgar= Posts 29 Joined on 02-13-2021 Post #: 22 Post ID: 27241 Reply to: 27240 Give it a try Hey again Paul, I focus on the processor because I am making the point to go and buy one and try. Discussion is pointless unless people are using it for themselves and reporting their experiences. Honestly I am surprised more of us are not trying it. I am happy to discuss more about my main channels in another thread but i feel like you ask so you can make a judgment of me at what level of audio I might be at and if my comments are worth listening to or not, which is fair. However, have you tried RI for yorself?

09-09-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 23 Post ID: 27242 Reply to: 27241 As Time Goes By Edgar, of course I am not interested in blanket "recommendations" out of context. After all, it's a Big World out there, and time grows short for me. Do you know that there are several GSC threads where RI has been discusssed, going back some time? So far, my "RI-ish" experience is limited to Quad and 5.1, and modified variants, but Romy's remarks (in the context he has painstakingly aggregated) have helped me to get a better idea of how I might like to go about my own version, in the context of my own system/listening. Like I said, I like the broad notion that RI "quality is irrelevant", because there seems to be no way at this point to control "quality" in the first place. At the same time, although I look back fondly on my time spent flailing randomly, I am not so nostalgic that I want to go through it again. Rather, I prefer to build on experience. I don't want to be dropped into a room full of noise makers. By the way, I notice you are asking me about my experience as a basis for making judgments, and fair enough. Best regards Paul S

09-19-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,155 Joined on 05-28-2004 Post #: 24 Post ID: 27250 Reply to: 27171 Auro vs. Algorithmic reverbs injections https://www.auro-3d.com/hardware/ "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-21-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 25 Post ID: 27252 Reply to: 27250 Auro 3D To follow up on Romy's latest broadcast on his visit to my house.My left and right speakers consist of Jl Audio 113 revision 2 subs to 70 Hz., Edgar 50 Hz. 6 foot Straight horns with two 12 inch electravoice drivers each to 500 Hz, Edgar round mid horns with Romy's Vitavox S3 drivers to 9000 Hz and the Tannoy red 10 inch drivers using only the tweeter part from 9000 hz. These mids and tweetersare driven by highly modified Yamaha B2 amps and the woofers by modified Yamaha B3 amps, both vfets. The side, back and overhead speaker are Klipsch, Yamaha ns1000 m and VMPS towers. All of these are controlled by a Trinnov Altitude 16 preamp processor, which acts as the fourth order active crossovers for the left and right speakers, digital room and speaker correction, and Auro 3 d Decoder for ambiance recovery. The auro 3d processing is far superior to Dolby or dts in that it was originally developed for music rather than movies. It can either decode the 5.1 channel information from multichannel recording or recover the ambiance information from two track recordings. With two track, it decodes the signal in such a way that the left and right channels only receive the direct information from the musicians, while breaking down the vectors of the ambient information to send it to the proper surround and overhead channels, thus attempting to recreate the information of both the direct and hall sounds to mimic what one would hear in the hall if one were to sit where the microphones were placed and  it was r3corded. It works best with multichannel and next best with simply miked rexording, but decreases in effectiveness with multi mike and multitrack recordings. From what I’ve heard over the years trying to recreate what I have heard in the several concert halls in both the US and Europe, it works far better than the Hafler effect, Dolby digital and atmos, all of the DTS iterations and hall reverberation recreations, all of which I have used over the years,because it’s doing ambiance recovery of what was recorded in the concert hall, rather than trying to add the  ambiance of a different concert hall to the recording while leaving the original concert hall ambiance from the main speakers. I use the pre-pro on all channels because of the Trinnov's ability to do the speaker and room correction and active crossovers while aligning the individual drivers to less than 1/10 of a millisecond. For  those, like Romy, who have superior main channels, and don’t want to spend the 20,000 dollars for the Trinnov, there is another option to experiment with. As the surround do not need to be of the quality of the mains, one can use a pre-pro or receiver with Auro3D  decoding only on the surrounds. One can either run the analog or digital outputs of the sources to the main processor, then out from there to the auro processor, or if the sources have two outputs, run them concurrently. For setup, one would have to run the front speakers through the auro processor, and afterwards run them separately through to original preamp. If you have separate speakers around the house, and possibly an auro processor, I highly suggest tryiny this out. The listening through a window effect of stereo cannot be returned to when this is done, so beware.

09-21-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 26 Post ID: 27253 Reply to: 27252 Starting From Scratch Bill, thank you for the ton of useful information! This is pretty much what I thought, that the recordings should more or less suit the process to begin with. To be clear: regarding “un-processed” main stereo + “reverb” only, are you saying the stereo (or split mono?) signal must go from a turntable or transport/DAC source to a processer, and from there to the preamp, and from there to the main (2-channel) amps and a second (Auro 3D) processor/amp? Why start with/include the "first processer" for unprocessed front stereo +  "simple reverb"? I am supposing I mis-understood. Best regards, Paul S

09-22-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 27 Post ID: 27254 Reply to: 27253 Source to preamp if there is only one output on the source, it should feed the main speaker preamp or Dac. The preamp or dac digital or analog output would the feed the pre-pro or receiver with auro 3d capability which would then feed the ambiance channels.If the source has two digital outputs, then both the main preamp and the auro pre-pro could then receive the same signal.

09-22-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 28 Post ID: 27255 Reply to: 27254 Stone Age to Iron Age Adaptation Thanks, Bill. The system you describe sounds like my brother''s old home theater surround sound, which did a nice job with 5.1 DVDs, for concerts, opera, and musical theater. I presently use only a turntable or CD/DAC source with my hi-fi, in stereo or dual mono, using front stereo speakers only. I can feed two pairs of speakers from my (passive) TVC/preamp, so my first thought was to feed an Auro 3D from the pre-amp. However, I suppose the Auro 3D has its own volume control, and I have always avoided two attenuators in line, so perhaps better to arrange a feed-through from the source for the reverb channels? Best regards, Paul S

09-22-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 29 Post ID: 27256 Reply to: 27255 Agree Agree

09-23-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree N-set Gdansk, Poland Posts 617 Joined on 01-07-2006 Post #: 30 Post ID: 27258 Reply to: 27252 If it's not there, it's not there? Bill, if the ambience information is not on the material then Auro will not create it? It is extraction and not addition right? I'm asking because I do not listen modern digital formats, mostly old vinyl. Cheers, Jarek STACORE

09-23-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 31 Post ID: 27259 Reply to: 27258 Multi-Channel vs Rear Speakers Only Jarek, one might also consider that the "small" Auro-capable processors are 7.2 channels (larger might be 14.2). When thinking/speaking of "Auro 3D", I think we are a long way from Romy's original 2-rear-speakers "RI". It is still not clear to me if Romy's idea functions independently from ambient information that is on/in the LP or CD disc to begin with, but Bill has said explicitly that the relevant ambient information needs to be on the disc (or in the stream) to start with for his touted results. I am still barking like a lost dog about the fact that plenty of discs of mine are suspect in terms of "ambient information" I would want to feature. I allow for the possibility that Romy's "original" "irrelevant quality" rear channels might work some sort of dither effect, but that has not been the case with Quad or 5.1, that's for sure. Those are cases where some There must be there to start with. Best regards, Paul S

09-23-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 32 Post ID: 27260 Reply to: 27259 Auro Auro can be set up for any number of extra speakers, from 2 to 14. One only has to set up for what he has available for ambiance speakers, from just two side or rear floor, to center, left and right side and rear, subs, to left right and center height front, and sides, and a top speaker. Usually ,the more the better recreation of the Hall ambiance. Well recorded performances in concert halls with properly set up microphones have the hall ambiance recorded with the direct sounds. Less correct are many multi microphone recordings, and of course multitrack recordings with in your face to the artist microphones have little or no ambiance. But of course we aren't discussing those trash recording when we are trying to recreate the live in a hall concert experience. Romy's reverberation effect would certainly work with the multitrack, as that is what many recording engineers use to try to make those multitrack recording better. What Auro tries to do is recreate what one would have heard sitting in the hall listening to the artists as they were recorded. It is not perfect for two track recordings, as the microphones are usually placed close to the musicians while the majority of the listeners in a concert hall are further out in the hall.  In addition, it does allow 5.1 channel ambiance recordings to be spread out among the up to 14 channels giving a more natural uniform sound space. Remember, depending on where you sit in a concert hall, you are hearing nowhere from 90% direct, 10 percent ambiance sitting in or near the artists, to 10% direct 90% ambiance from the back of the hall. With stereo playback, even with the best recorordings, all of that hall ambiance information is mixed in with the direct sound, giving the listening through a window presentation. By removing it from the main channels and recreating the hall space in your room, you have the you are there effect. If one removes as much as possible your room's reverberation through various absorbers and diffusers, one can obtain a very close to natural atmosphere.

09-24-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 33 Post ID: 27262 Reply to: 27260 East is East, West is West? It sure sounds like the best in the way of ambience is a ways down another road from the road Romy has taken, One big difference would be DSP, which is at the very heart of the Trinnov and the Auro 3D. Another big difference is that the optimal DSP method depends on defeating the room effects and creating its own version, while Romy insists that one “work with the room”. Can these ideas coexist? Like it or not, Bill’s method is how the pros do it these days, that’s for sure. Meanwhile, one of the unmentioned issues with this whole situation is program material, if that matters to anyone. Paul S

09-24-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,155 Joined on 05-28-2004 Post #: 34 Post ID: 27263 Reply to: 27262 8 things you should know about auro-3d https://www.datasatdigital.com/info_center_articles/a-handy-guide-to-auro-3d/ https://www.audioholics.com/audio-technologies/auro-3d-bankruptcy "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-25-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 35 Post ID: 27264 Reply to: 27263 Looks Like 9 Things... Clearly, if to retain LP or CD source and analog-fed stereo main speakers, there is the matter of backwards compatibility with any added DSP RI enhancement. From the 8 things list, it looks like current Auro is backward compatible with 5.1 surround encoded sources, if that helps anyone. Too bad about the Chapter 11, but I already own plenty of orphaned equipment. Paul S

09-26-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 36 Post ID: 27266 Reply to: 27264 Chapter 11 All this does is keeps them from advancing their software. Companies should still be able to use the process to produce new software, manufacturers will be able to produce new pre-pros, and consumers will still be able to usectheir processors with all 2 and 5.1 channel technology cd's, dvd's and 4 k Blu-ray Discs.

09-26-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 37 Post ID: 27267 Reply to: 27266 Romy, Are 2 Rear Channels "Enough" RI? Gotta say, it's nice having great stereo front channels; but the way typical stereo is done ensures that the "sense of space" typically "stops behind the speakers". I messed around with big OB speakers for many years, and they made some nice room effects, and I wonder now about ways to create and integrate some "random phase" sound with front firing stereo only, also whether 2 rear channels are "enough" for acceptable ambience. Paul S

09-26-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Romy the Cat Boston, MA Posts 10,155 Joined on 05-28-2004 Post #: 38 Post ID: 27268 Reply to: 27267 Paul, it is very difirent. Actually, Paul, it has nothing to do with stereo, with two channels or four channels. The Auro or my reverberation channels, more or less properly implemented present a completely different listening environment, and a completely different listening experience. From what I hear Auro has significantly more promises. I however did not try to use my reverberation channels with much more superior convoluted reverberation processes and I did not hear Auro where main channels do not go over our processor, and I think it is a way how it should be. So, I do not know what more fruitful direction is to go, I need to try it. If you do not experiment with this personally there is no reason for you to foresee what it is. I believe that I have quite good listening intelligence, but I am completely not informed, and not trained to understand nuances of space reproduction around the main listening channels.  It is a bit ridiculous what kind of jungles high-end audio people dive into in order to get different minute aspects of sound reproduction. They can fight with each other about the height of the cable elevators, Increase humidity in the room where the turntable is spinning, or go to the insane vintage of directly heated triodes. However, such a huge concept as a creation in our small listening rooms a proper acoustic environment for proper reproduction by active means, something that from my point of view has a monumental influence to a listening experience, it's completely avoided attention by the high-end audio community. I need to admit that I am in the very same camp and for years I heard about quadros, surround sound, Dolby surround, DTS, 5, 7, 9, and 11 channels installations and I absolutely detested all of that crap. What I am talking about today has to do with the active imposing of space parameters to the listening environment without compromising any single property of 2-channel reproduction. That is all is not a perfect two-channel stereo but a completely different experience, that has hardly anything to do with typical stereo presentation. "I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-27-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 39 Post ID: 27269 Reply to: 27268 Alone Again (Naturally) Well, Romy, "the industry" never really settled on anything for any reason, so many versions of pretty much everything out there, although the convolution sound processing, very generally speaking, is the pro darling these days, especially in terms of "PA" and "sound reinforcement" at hi-end venues. Like you, I have not yet heard anything from 100% digital processing that I want for the close listening I prefer, even though I do appreciate the 3D effects of the "surround sound" I have heard. Like you, I want to "amend" the analog stereo or dual mono I have evolved for close listening, and I want to do it as simply as possible. Meanwhile, it appears that the 3D effects are literally built on multi- channel output, ie, the effects are parced by the processing into more than just 2 rear channels, and I include the Convolution processing with the 3D in terms of its processing and "intended" use. I was just hoping someone else had gotten "there" first. I think if I start dragging digital processors into the house to play with, my  wife will poison me! On the plus side, I already have plenty of drivers for extra channels! Paul S

09-27-2023 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Bill Kensington, NH Posts 117 Joined on 03-15-2010 Post #: 40 Post ID: 27270 Reply to: 27269 Denon AVR-X3800H This is the least expensive way to try out Auro 3d that I could find. I'm sure there are others out there.Billhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/305160084120?