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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680394  07-29-2007
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10-29-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 261
Post ID: 26954
Reply to: 26953
Closing In
Likely, whatever you do with subs will include a big coil, and caps and resistors, too, if to make a steep filter to "match" the Dannoy LF "roll off". The sub(s) might be tailored in terms of correct SPL to blend with the Dannoy at the X/O point, and then you would have to boost the sub(s) below that. Sounds like a job for a plate amp, and maybe start with a board so you can dial in the sub(s) before commiting to exactly how you will drive them. One nice thing about digital subs is that you can "dial in phase" along with power curves. No idea how to "match phase" with the PR.

Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 262
Post ID: 26955
Reply to: 26954
Not so fast
Found this old experiment of Romy:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26298#26298
Dannoy + 2x active paralleled ScanSpeaks in a sealed box of unknown tuning freq, both speakers powered from the same amp, unfiltered (the blue curve). Not sure if he ever continued this experiment.  But looks like the numbers don't lie and two paralleled ScanSpeaks needed just to match the 92dB  sensitivity of the Red (not relying on the boundary effects though), so anything smaller is a no-go. Furthermore, as  I understand the passive operation, adding a passive Scanspeak to the sub will +/- reproduce the LF slope and the null of the Dannoy (the red curve) so the net reinforcement looks close to zero, unless I'm missing sth. Plus various rules of thumb say the passive area should be bigger than the active (not followed in the Dannoy though), so probably for two active ScanSpeaks, a bare minimum two passive will be needed, making the whole sub box quite a tower already. Hmm...


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 263
Post ID: 26956
Reply to: 26955
92 dB at 50 Hz from the Tannoy?
Of course, it's the top end of the woofers/subs that has to blend in with the bottom end of the Dannoys, and you can get gain at X/O frequency from the subs, if it sounds OK to do it. I guess that means coming up with an "average" of the sum and difference effects at X/O frequency shown on Romy's chart and using that to come up with values for the X/O, itself? And there will also be "phase issues" to contend with here, to avoid worse combing. Also, it's still not clear to me if you are saying that PRs in your subs would somehow make the active part of the ScanSpeak subs blend better with the Dannoys at the X/O frequency, which is the top end of the subs' output, when the PR relates to the SS's 20 Hz Fs? I don't get how this part works. Another case where you pay the price, build it, then try it out?

Best regards,
Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,156
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 264
Post ID: 26957
Reply to: 26955
It is all about Audio dark matter.
What is the most interesting is how all those completely lucid commentaries about Dannoy are off the mark in my view. Do not get me wrong, there is nothing expressed here is bad but all it describes how to get a “balanced” sound Dannoy configuration. I do not think that the balanced sound was something the “ruined” me last September. I am pretty sure that when I swiped the TRA then (and I did) I would have a horrible response. There is something else in the Dannoy/VFET configuration that was superbly attractive, and I am very sure that this attractiveness has no reflection within amplitude domain. I just wish I know what it was. Yes, trying to improve what I has last September I was trying to fix the amplitude domain. As I felt that I can do “better” and I lost everything. Please, take me seriously. I am not an idiot and have very good sense of what I do in audio and in my view Macondo/Milq did very fine before last September. What I experienced in September with Dannoy/ VFET was something that absolutely different from anything that I knew and the converted my 25-year experience with Macondo/DSET into something disposable. I am not kidding it was so different that it was laudable. One way or other and wherever it was I am very confident that it was the just proper drivers operation but something vey different.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 265
Post ID: 26958
Reply to: 26956
Basic considerations
Good question, what is the actual reasonable output of Dannoy at 50Hz, no idea.  To make it clearer, let me summarize my actual thoughts (possibly wrong):
Variant I (PR sub):
1. I accept 20Hz as the lowest freq and do not try to go lower 2. I try to reinforce the 20-100Hz region of Dannoy with a sub, working parallel in this region with the Dannoy
3. To blend the low ends of the sub and the Dannoy I consider:
a) a sub with the same passive radiator as the Dannoy; the complication is the size-using 2 scanspeaks means using 2 more as PR = large enclousure
b) low passing the sub only at some 100Hz and trying Dannoy unfiltered
Variant II (Sealed sub):
1. I try to go lower in freq a la quoted Romy's idea, complementing Dannoy at ULF as well
2. I consider a sealed box with 2 scanspeaks, close to the boundary (ceiling/floor),Dannoy again unfiltered, sealed boxed low passed at some 100Hz







Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 266
Post ID: 26959
Reply to: 26958
The Dannoy at 20 Hz?!?
Jarek, can we just stop talking about the Dannoy "output" at 20 Hz, just because that's Fs? Not saying the Tannoy doesn't benefit sonically from its Dannoy configuration; but, if to add LF, as you say you want to, then you need subs, since the Tannoy is tapped out at LF, as everyone who has used it agrees, and more power alone will not get more LF from that speaker. The Tannoy is the only active speaker in the Dannoy, right? Whatever, the beneficial "PR influence" is peculiar to the Dannoy configuration alone, as far as we know. Sealed Scanspeak subs without the PR "should" do it, since you are trying to limit the footprint and/or bulk of the sub(s), and sealed enclosures will be your smallest choice. And don't forget that subs sound good where they sound good, but using 2 or 3 subs (vs. 1) might well change where they sound best (generally when/where they cause the least harm). Subs in the "wrong" positions can create frustrating peaks and/or suck-outs. In fact, it can be tough to eliminate ill effects of subs. Build 'em, test 'em, laugh or cry. Once you are otherwise happy with your Dannoys, of course.

Although I get the dark matter analogy, it's not helpful at this point, since N-set appears to be set on charging ahead, regardless, and none of us can effectively include the "darkmatter quotient" into our "calculatons". Before dark matter there was phlogiston. We worked around it (albeit without having learned to to love one another).


Paul S
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 267
Post ID: 26960
Reply to: 26959
Coming back to the start
Yes, of course, I was using 20Hz as some reference only. It's Fs of the ScanSpeak. Tannoy is the only active speaker so all power comes (or not) from it. From your experience with Reds, where does its reasonable output end?

Like you say, probably the only way is to try (I don't think Romy played a lot with this combo of Dannoy +2xSS sealed and moved to Remendies). 43-45Hz box is the max size I can do for 2x ScanSpeak. Hung from the ceiling for the additional gain, low passed at some 80-100-120Hz or so, the Dannoy unfiltered. I could CNC two more cutouts for PR's later if I feel I want to try them (by the alchemist rule of mixing alike with alike Wink.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-30-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 268
Post ID: 26961
Reply to: 26960
Box Limits vs. Multiple Drivers
Well, Tannoy tuned all their 10" monitors to play reasonably well down to about 50 Hz. Their monitors I heard were all variations of ported, with some of their "newer" monitors (70's?) using the ports to create more apparent bass, and those monitors required (Surprise!) more amp power. I should mention, the newer drivers are different from the older ones (naturally). Are you planning to drive the SS lower than the frequency gained by the box? I don't remember the older drivers having long Xmax and/or high BL, or high mms, so multiple drivers and likely more power, not to mention biased X/O, to get lower than the small box "allows". I suppose the SS you are looking at would not work in a tapped horn sort of thing?

The foregoing supposes you are leaving the Dannoys as-is, to "keep them at their best".

Never give up on the idea of something for nothing!


Best regards,
Paul S
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 269
Post ID: 26962
Reply to: 26961
Biamping
 Paul S wrote:
Are you planning to drive the SS lower than the frequency gained by the box? I don't remember the older drivers having long Xmax and/or high BL, or high mms, so multiple drivers and likely more power, not to mention biased X/O, to get lower than the small box "allows". I suppose the SS you are looking at would not work in a tapped horn sort of thing?

Yes, of course. I'm basically parasiting on what Romy and Anthony did with the Macondo ULF, hoping it would work with Dannoys  : SS sealed box, drive the box with its own powerful amp (biamping) and let the box go as low as it can go (Anthony reported doing even 18Hz with 8xSS). Low passed somewhwre around 100Hz. The SS data shows +/- 6mm linear:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/pdf/ScanSpeakWoofer.pdf
The Dannoys left untouched not to spoil anything.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 270
Post ID: 26963
Reply to: 26962
Wooly Bully
Fair Xmax, and that (plus multiple drivers) is pretty much necessary for a 10" driver to go low. The best thing about this LF idea, IMO, is that it increases your chances of blending sonically at X/O. No idea how the cones hold up with the power (including current, by the way...) that will be required to move that much mass that far, that fast. Not to mention, again, the very peculiar behavior of the Dannoy at its bottom. You can calculate Vas and maybe line the boxes with thick felt and stuff them with fluffy wool. As you will eventually see (if/when I post on my own project), I lke to first "parge" the insides of my speaker boxes with about 5mm of acrylic modified thin set mortar. And I was thinking Romy abandoned his SS towers (ok, I am old, so somethimes it's hard to separate actual memories from "related thoughts"). You did not respond about the "tapped horn idea" (not that it deserves mention; just a thought about small footprint/high output).


Best regards,
Paul S
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 271
Post ID: 26964
Reply to: 26963
If we want history to repeat itself, we have to prepare - again
There has been one year of frustration about something that "shouldn't" work. I will maintain, if we want another go, then we have to hook up Melquiades/Macondo and get our ears back to where they were. Then we repeat the Dunnoy experiment. Maybe the excitement was the "one time" delta that of course is the delta to the Melquiades/Macondo - not the Dunnoy to Dunnoy.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 272
Post ID: 26965
Reply to: 26963
Tapped horn
I didn't comment because I don't have much to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt it will have a smaller volume than a sealed box.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-31-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 273
Post ID: 26966
Reply to: 26965
The Irony of Scanspeak Subs
Another thing to consider here is a specific reason or reasons to use the "PR Type" Scanspeaks as subs, since Romy says outright that the Dannoy's PR cones have "no ouput", but the (rather amemic) LF from the Dannoy'ed Tannoy is all there is from the Dannoys.
OK, screw Tapped horn, maybe opposed drivers.


Best regards,
Paul S
11-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 274
Post ID: 26968
Reply to: 26966
Amplitude domain unlikely
I think that the discussion of extending response (especially LF) is the WRONG direction. We know that the Macondo/Melquiades setup had more extension and integration than is even possible with Dunnoys. I am not sure why this is even getting so many posts.

If there is anything that the Dunnoy can possibly do better, it is TONE - most likely from the paper driver, not the horn or PR. A loudspeaker driver and a passive radiator must be closely matched to the LF resonance of the active unit if we want LF amplitude gains - something not the case here. If the passive is tuned too low (which is the case here), the box behaves more like an infinite baffle - no LF increase but relief of box pressure.

Other than having enough power,  I doubt that the Yamaha amplifier is really integral to "getting the best" out of the Dunnoys.

At the end of the day however, I believe the solution is early luck OR A REPEAT OF THE YEARS OF INVESTMENT LIKE WITH MELQUIADES/MACONDO. I do not think that this bride is low maintenance - even with the early successes (that can not be repeated). I am not waiting for the joyful post that reveals a secret. The Tannoy is a "nice" driver in a limited band and will remain so.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-01-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,657
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 275
Post ID: 26970
Reply to: 26968
Just Hypothesizing
The query is, if to keep this acceptble but LF challenged speaker (Dannoy) as-is, then how to add LF without wrecking what's good about this speaker. Probably worth another listen to Romy's most recent YouTube post on the matter, as he actually, literally, sardonically laughs off the notion and winds up dissing the Dannoy more than praising it. However, again, Nset has proven again and again that he won't be stopped short by "common sense". After all, as a wise and well-educated friend once said to me, "Engineering has nothing to do with common sense."

To my ears, Tannoy's best efforts have been their larger, old-fashoned speakers that used large, Helmholz type vented boxes, almost (but not quite) OB. I personally think the old Tannoys might work OB, but certainly not down to 50 Hz, unless a large enough cavity was available on the back side (remember, my idea of OB is that both sides of the driver are unloaded). Just an aside, the late JG Holt, who heard a lot more speakers than most, wound up using vented Tannoy Pro mid-field monitors to the end of his days, post Stereophile.

Nerd Trove Tannoy info link:

https://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy52.htm



Best regards,
Paul S
11-07-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 29
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 276
Post ID: 26979
Reply to: 26970
Phase Linearity
Not Amplitude. It's the rock solid phase linearity. It feels like a brick wall all the way up and down. I haven't looked at any graphs and haven't measured anything but that is my guess. 
There is no question of the great tone of vintage Tannoy but also it shines from a point source perspective IMO. I assume there is a relationship between its phase linearity and its duel concentricity.

N-set, I use a Yamaha DSP-492 for reverb injection.

Regarding the passive radiator situation. I did a slo-mo recording of the drivers with a sweep from 1hz up to 200. The PR is out of phase from 1hz up to about 55hz and then appears to lock on and is in phase from there up. 
11-07-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 277
Post ID: 26980
Reply to: 26979
Phase and motion
Edgar, very very nice observations re the phase! Can you somehow share the movie? Shouldn't there be a second phase jump around Fs of the passive radiator?

Have you tried combining sealed subs running parallel with Dannoys? I.e. Dunnoys not filtered at all, not to mess with the quirky low end phase jump. Sub low passed somewhere at 80-120Hz. This is sth I have in mind. What Rowuk has been trying to prove I have no idea and leave it to him.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-07-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 278
Post ID: 26981
Reply to: 26979
Online we can claim a lot...
 Edgar= wrote:
Not Amplitude. It's the rock solid phase linearity. It feels like a brick wall all the way up and down. I haven't looked at any graphs and haven't measured anything but that is my guess. 
There is no question of the great tone of vintage Tannoy but also it shines from a point source perspective IMO. I assume there is a relationship between its phase linearity and its duel concentricity.

N-set, I use a Yamaha DSP-492 for reverb injection.

Regarding the passive radiator situation. I did a slo-mo recording of the drivers with a sweep from 1hz up to 200. The PR is out of phase from 1hz up to about 55hz and then appears to lock on and is in phase from there up. 

Impossible. A passive radiator can NOT change its tuning frequency on the fly. It is a Helmholz resonator - one single tuning frequency. It is also NEVER in phase, it is always late as it takes several cycles to get resonant. It is possible that at the tuning frequency and its multiples (55Hz, 110Hz, 165Hz), that it adds a maximum to the pressure. If the Q is low enough, it will resonate at its tuning frequency even if exposed to frequencies slightly higher or lower. THis is one of the reasons for lower pitch definition in resonant systems (port/PR/transmission line.
I agree with Paul about vintge spekers sounding best when the front and rear are equally loaded - like with an infinite baffle (box bigger than VAS).

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-08-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 29
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 279
Post ID: 26982
Reply to: 26981
I Agree
 rowuk wrote:
Impossible. A passive radiator can NOT change its tuning frequency on the fly. It is a Helmholz resonator - one single tuning frequency. It is also NEVER in phase, it is always late as it takes several cycles to get resonant. It is possible that at the tuning frequency and its multiples (55Hz, 110Hz, 165Hz), that it adds a maximum to the pressure. If the Q is low enough, it will resonate at its tuning frequency even if exposed to frequencies slightly higher or lower. THis is one of the reasons for lower pitch definition in resonant systems (port/PR/transmission line.
I agree with Paul about vintge spekers sounding best when the front and rear are equally loaded - like with an infinite baffle (box bigger than VAS).
When I said it "locks in" and is in phase I do mean it with all this in mind. I'm not trying to redefine what a PR is. It defiantly is always late. But there is a point where it is not so late that it does not decouple the active diver. That was the point I was referring to at 55hz or so.   
 rowuk wrote:
If the passive is tuned too low (which is the case here), the box behaves more like an infinite baffle - no LF increase but relief of box pressure.
Sounds pretty-much like the situation to me. It is not LF increase but wide band dampening. If what u say about the equal loading of the front and back of the Tannoy is true, then Dunnoy is probably benefiting from this.

I listened again last night to the Dunnoys. I haven't had them running fro a while. Maybe a few months. One thing I observed when listing was - It's like they are not just generating pressure but also suction. They do the front of the note so well, but they also do the back of the note so extremely well. It's like they can hold negative space at the back of the note for how ever long they want. It's not just negative space though, It's like a cascading, shrinking spiral of space that as it shrinks and diminishes in energy it still fizzes and fires off energy as it goes. It made me think of Viktor Schauberger's work on suction. 

N-Set, I invite you to make your own recording of the phase of your Dunnoy. I used my phone camera to do it and a free online sweep generator. I had Tannoy, Scanspeak and laptop screen all in shot when I filmed and shot from as side on as possible. I didn't observe another phase flip like you mention below 20hz. Definitely out of phase from 1hz to 20hz. 
If you do film your Dunnoy you will get insight into the conundrum of integrating more bass. I'll give you an example. For the sake of this argument let's pick a design frequency of say 40hz to crossover. When I watched my footage I observed the phase drift start around 55hz. Im calling from 55hz and up, in-phase and from 55hz down out-of-phase. It's not technically in phase yes, also it not just suddenly out of phase either, and for that matter it doesn't start at 55hz but there is an observable shift around there, both visually and acoustically enough for me to choose that frequency for this argument.
So at 40 hz what driver do you want to interface with? That is which driver do you want to time align with? If we choose the tannoy then we will be out of phase with the PR. If we choose the PR we will be out of phase with the Tannoy. As we go lower and the difference of phase between active and passive radiators increases, the issue gets worse. Which ever way you cut it, if you add another driver to your room delivering sub 55hz energy, it will be out of phase with Dunnoy.
11-09-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Edgar=
Posts 29
Joined on 02-13-2021
Post #: 280
Post ID: 26983
Reply to: 26982
Analogy for the Function of the PR
Here is some footage I found helpful in visualising what is happening with the PR. It's of a flame in a tube not a loudspeaker but I thought it serves as a good analogy for the phenomena we are discussing. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLcK6q1KiQM
Skip to 6min if you want to jump straight to the relevant slo/mo footage. It's interesting the dampening as the system approaches resonance. I also find the geometry of the waves intriguing. It happens just as you describe it rowuk, the system is a Helmholz resonator at one single tuned frequency and it's harmonics.
Ed 
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  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680394  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  35121  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  12756  11-09-2021
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