09-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1861 Post ID: 26886 Reply to: 26885 Likewise With Chargers Batteries are either designed for, or by default are better suited to, specific tasks/routines. Likewise, a given "smart" charger more or less suits a given battery. Caveat Emptor. Paul S

09-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1862 Post ID: 26887 Reply to: 26886 Not to Advertise/Endorse Wouldn't you know, theses days people actually market batteries for audio use. https://www.ebay.com/itm/311553605415?epid=2255437073&hash=item488a0abf27:g:U2UAAOSwtbFgB1uK&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8Op60QGTOo3Y6cjW7KxmXC6ojQDWReASpcB6va12Dw39j9MLTgJ0c%2Bw%2BvGkdB4WGr4TxO4Gr3K%2BmD1v%2BGH1AyNFmXrD01SrWske9Jz2x4%2B4qF%2FhNERY1ZB9Fd3StRB0xi6g%2BoDWE7rHM2xGvvHGn1Qa20yPZZaotqRpeV%2Bplsntij4k5%2FH6p55D1QIbeT%2FRa9E254k%2BwKnq0r8A6kyGldBhd5FFXYQSgX4AargpRWUQ%2FFDaLs0jsPKejuQpHerXt7RX55Y62brcYQFlvyQ6XUF3LfLQUJ8Wv%2B3MFZnz7bhBQuY5MgLCSU%2Fi7mhTu%2B1vNpw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMgqT30-dg NOT to say this is for you, or worth a look. Just saying... I have already shared my audio battery experience in my digital audio/DAC thread, FWIW. Paul S

09-14-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1863 Post ID: 26888 Reply to: 26886 Interesting You had mentioned the dry cells before but I was unaware of them. I went with the LiFePo the fellow recommended.  I had ordered it before you posted this. The key is depth of discharge and I am not sure if they are specifying this.  All of their specifications seem to be in their own lingo. Says it is ostensibly a traditional battery which leads me to think I would be in the same position i am already. From what I can surmise a LiFePo will continue to play twice as long as the traditional battery since it can maintain over 12 volts almost to the point of being completely drained and being completely drained does not harm it. Obviously the PUREPOWER and STROMTANK use two smaller LiFePo and run one while the other charges and then switches when that battery is down to its minimum.  This is very clever but with the charger always in operation I would think this must add noise and that switch for the two batteries has to carry a sonic penalty since every switch does in my experience. The LiFePos will arrive next week.  I look forward to getting tired of listening. I did listen with the charger connected and there is extra noise but one could live with it temporarily.  I figure it is better to retain the use of the charger with the batteries fully charged so the batteries behave as big capacitors instead of the charger becoming half of the power supply. I am wondering if there is any benefit to powering SMPS with inverter AC?  I had my music computer connected and then thought I would reconnect it to the line to save on power usage and I think I may have heard a slight difference.  As usual in audio the differences went in both directions for different aspects. This is not a typical ATX supply but a massive MEANWELL 20 volts smps powering DC-DC converters from HDPLEX whose me - much better than even the best ATX - driving a MUTEC MC3+USB (USB to AES EBU) which is also now plugged into the LINE since it also contains an SMPS.  Just curious if such mundane things had ever crossed your mind.  If you use a computer for music files and preferably using WTF as your player - the ultimate minimalist player - the MUTEC will amaze you what is possible with computer audio.  Sorry to have got so completely off of the subject.

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1864 Post ID: 26889 Reply to: 26888 Voltage vs. Current Rick, sure, working volltage is important. What does your inverter require in the way of current in order to produce it's rated voltage at its rated current? I can remember times when I measured "correct" voltage when the battery was functionally useless. I can't think of a battery that is really OK with being drained down past a certain point. Rather, a battery can do only so many extreme cycles in its lifetime, and best to keep it within "working limits". Hence, the "dedicated" smart chargers. Actually, whatever they are made of, the big mobile audio batteries drive powerful DJ/PA type sound systems for hours on end. I don't know anything about quieter/better power sources for computer based sound systems. A telecommunications engineer, John Rankin, who posteed here a few times, sent me a SMPS to use on the heaters of my phonostage tubes; but at the time I recieved the SMPS I was just finishing up a mod to swing the second stage negative, and I did not know if or how to adapt it. John insisted on the benefits of SMPS for keeping noise in LNAs and phono stages to the absolute minimum, and he should know, as that was his full-time job. However, I think they also use brick wall filters that might not "work" for "our kind" of audio. Also, everyone in "professional" sound area uses all balanced systems, with everything grounded, and they all just shake their heads at unbalanced audio systems. Best regards, Paul S

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1865 Post ID: 26890 Reply to: 26889 LiFePo is very different And I wish I had looked more carefully before taking the cheap way out - which turns out to have become the more expensive way since I have no idea if anyone will buy a month old used battery. From the graphs the traditional lead acid batteries all perform similarly - you get an initial period of full voltage that lasts depending on the load - but then declines in a linear way to the point where you should not go beyond for the likelihood of damaging the battery. I go to 11.5 volts before turning things off.  I got a solid two hours last night after removing the SMPS powered components from the battery supply.  If the LiFePos allow four hours that is longer than i usually ever sit down to listen. The LiFePo's curve looks like a sixth order Linkwitz Riley low pass curve - stays flat (in this case substantially flat) until you reach the "crossover point" and the fall is precipitous.  From what I read it does not ruin the LiFePo battery to be depleted fully.  Of course, the re-charging cycle is probably greatly increased.  There is also advice that taking them down too far will harm the life of the battery.  So not a good idea. I have copied an illustration.   Now I will find out what this means in reality when i install the LiFePos next week. I have to repeat that once one hears what this does, not having the vagaries of the AC line, one would most likely not be able to return even with all of the inconvenience.  AC noise is much like digital noise - it infects the whole "note" - not a noise that resides alongside the note but something that intermingles with it.  One of those things you thought was just how it is until you find you no longer must live with it. As Harry Pearson described the differences between digital noise and LP noise - the LP noise is distinct from the music signal and the brain can learn to disregard it.  The digital noise is impossible for the brain to disentangle.  When he wrote this I had lost my "faith" in Harry Pearson but that struck me as a insight he deserved to be lauded for.  Almost as great as when, in the early years of the magazine, he went on and on about how the Carnegie Hall renovation had bestowed a glassy sound on the Hall only for it to be discovered a decade or so later there had been tons of broken glass placed underneath the stage for some unknown reason.  Though I started out as an 18 years old reading the first issue of the magazine with mindless enthusiasm I had with time become far more cynical about Mr. Pearson's bulls.  But that allowed me to think the really had a fine pair of highly tuned ears even though he played fast and lose with other people's stuff.  Those long term equipment loans were a bit on the suspect side.  (don't know why the font changed. There I go again ...

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1866 Post ID: 26891 Reply to: 26890 Again, what does your inverter require from the battery (in terms of both voltage and current) to put out it's own rated AC voltage and current? It seems like one would want to know this and take it into account before purchasing a battery for the inverter, or vice-versa. I think Tesla uses the LiFePo in their Model 3? But no inverter? They use a diffent battery (with greater capacity) for theiir $$$$$$ models. Paul S

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1867 Post ID: 26892 Reply to: 26891 Sorry The inverter has a meter that says 0 watts when nothing is connected to it - other than the batteries. As soon as something is "plugged in" it says 40 watts. GIADEL says the unit uses 1.2 amps/14 watts at idle.  I guess it does not really turn on until something is requiring power? I had assumed the mobile hazardous waste dumps all used DC motors but took a look and see this is not correct.  I am surprised that an inverter to allow an AC motor would be more efficient than simply using the native DC.  The whole electric car circus is nonsense to me.  Would be fine with it if there was an abundance of nuclear power plants generating electricity.  Instead we have one of the more grandiose examples of cognitive dissonance ever seen.  Closing down efficient generators of electricity while making the internal combustion engine anathema.  Substituting abundant petroleum for rare metals mined by children.  If it wasn't so bizarre it would be peculiar as hell.

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1868 Post ID: 26893 Reply to: 26892 Pass Through Numbers Well, that does not tell what sort of power your inverter wants/draws when you hook it up to your hi-fi, though it seeems like that is what you'd want to know in order to calculate how long you can listen with a given battery. Paul S

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1869 Post ID: 26894 Reply to: 26893 The meter shows 600 watts being drawn Which is what i thought I had posted a few times before. I assume 14 watts of that is the inverter. Before I disconnected the computer and USB box it was 640 watts. I hope I am not completely misunderstanding what you are asking for but it is entirely possible!

09-15-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1870 Post ID: 26895 Reply to: 26894 Ohm's Law Rick, a 12V battery must put out 50 Amps to make 600 Watts, given 100% efficiency (no system losses). So, the question is, how long can the battery do that, since that's what you're doing with it. It's of no use to have a weak battery that still puts out 12V, because the only way to get 600 Watts from 12V is at 50 Amps. Not to beat it to death, but this means the listening time from your battery is based on how long it can crank 12V at 50 Amps, not how long it can put out 12V. Obviously, if you need more wattage, you need more amperage, too, since the battery is "fixed" at 12V. Paul S

09-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1871 Post ID: 26896 Reply to: 26895 No argument The irony is a battery cannot STAY at any voltage for long and as the voltage lowers the current requirement becomes harder to fulfill. The LiFePo will stay above 12 volts for far longer than the AGM if the graphs are to be believed.  One must assume that the amperage will remain as constant as the voltage and in proportion. At the start of a listening session the meter shows 12.4 volts - the load toggles between 580 and 600 watts.   Last night I went down to 11.4 volts before turning off the amplifiers.  About two hours and twenty minutes.  I am letting the voltage sink lower and it does not seem to harm anything. The LiFePo batteries will be here Monday and it will be interesting to see what happens; hope my expectations are fulfilled. I thought through the process as you have and that is why I though the AGM batteries would work.  Only thing i can figure is the fact that the load is constant - no lessening or varying of the load - could this affect the battery's ability to continue to deliver 50 amps for as long as the ratings would suggest?  Of course, both battery types will be affected but it seems the ability of the LiFePo to stay in the 12 volts range longer than the AGM is the key.

09-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1872 Post ID: 26897 Reply to: 26896 The World of Batteries It's hard to buy batteries based on mfg. info, because they basically just say stuff, and also, as you pointed out, there are many "variables". AGM would work for you, if you got "the right one". Good luck with your LiFePo batteries. I think current/capacity is as important as voltage in your case, and I think when and how you re-charge it will be an important part of how well it works for you, also how long it works for you. Best regards, Paul S

09-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1873 Post ID: 26898 Reply to: 26897 I think four of them would work well But i hate the thought of six hundred pounds in such a concentrated spot on a suspended floor. I have this thought: what if the AGMs had a more mellifluous sound than the LiFePo?  And then I figure I need to fix another cocktail. Based upon the reports of the fellow who told me about this I am confident i will get twice as many usable hours per charge with the LiFePos and I promise to tell you if my expectations are not met. Thanks, Paul

09-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1874 Post ID: 26899 Reply to: 26898 "AGM" I have not shopped to find the smallest thing and the lowest price for it for your use. I can say that some AGMs are dry cell, and some are widely used for mobile sound systems that draw considerably more than 600 W, from a single battery that a strong person could lift. Might find one for under $600. Due diligence is part of the price we are always paying in hi-fi! I've never used my battery for more than 5 hours, and it was still plenty strong whan I shut it down. A friend of mine had twin Tesla batteries that would drive his whole system for quite a while, including 2X 1,200W amps.  Being Scotch, as you say, you would not cotton to the price! Paul S

09-16-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1875 Post ID: 26900 Reply to: 26899 As the old story goes: Scotch is a drink And one I do not enjoy at all!  Rye whiskey is the only proper drink for a citizen of the US! I continue to wonder if the fact that my amplifiers are class a with constant load instead of one that varies has something to do with it.  I wonder if a class ab setup would have behaved differently? I paid four hundred dollars for each of the 200ah AGM batteries.  The LiFePo are just above seven hundred. I hope I can find someone willing to pay half of what I paid for the AGMs.  I DREAD having to move them again. Come Monday there will be an answer ...

09-17-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree xandcg Rio de Janeiro, BR. Posts 218 Joined on 09-07-2014 Post #: 1876 Post ID: 26901 Reply to: 26900 Custom UPS For anyone interested, this is a German company that is specialized in custom, purpose built UPSes. https://www.jovyatlas.de/ Think for yourself, do not be sheep.

09-20-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1877 Post ID: 26902 Reply to: 26900 LiFePo is the key to this working very welll Got the "proper" batteries installed. Left them on the charger about an hour - voltage read 13.3 out of the box and never changed with an hour of charging. This morning after an evening of charging they read 13.4.  The AGM wouild read 13.5 fully charged so maybe these take ahilw to fill up to the brim. Starting off last night at 13.3 after two and one-half hours they read 12.6 volts.  The AGM would have been in the 11.6 range at that point in time. If not lower - I did not record the voltage. So it seems that five hours of listening time is likely.  I do not listen for that length of time very often so it will be awhile before I can verify that. The sound might be more dynamic with the LiFePo since the music sounded louder with these batteries.  I started with the same piece of music I finished off with the night before with no changes in volume.  In fact it seemed too loud so I reduced the level two dB.  So either there is more dynamic range due to these batteries or they are adding an obnoxious sound to the music that makes one want to turn the volume down.  I hope the latter is not the case but only more listening will answer that question.

09-20-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree Paul S San Diego, California, USA Posts 2,656 Joined on 10-12-2006 Post #: 1878 Post ID: 26903 Reply to: 26902 Time to Enjoy Some Music! Congratulations, Rick. May your new batteries live strong and long. My storage spaces are crammed with wrong, superceded, and experimental hi-fi gear, including many dead SLA batteries I used in series to power a field coil driver. Gotta round those up and dispose of them conscientiously. You can probably sell your other batteries on CraigsList or maybe even US Audio Mart, ... if they're priced low enough. Let them sit too long and they will be worthless. Does your smart charger have a sensor or isome way to "profile" a charge, to particularly accomodate your new batteries? Best regards, Paul S

09-20-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1879 Post ID: 26904 Reply to: 26903 One can enjoy listening much better without a clock ticking down I will be able to relax not worrying about the state of the batteries. The charger I use has three modes for charging that ends with a 13.5 volts float.  It was made for LiFePo batteries but would work with AGM. I topped off the AGMs and my sister is going to put them on some site she uses in hopes of selling them.  If I could get one-half of what I paid for i would be grateful. I feel bad about owning a product of child labor - not that I am Mr. Wonderful by any means, but there is no question this technology is quite impressive.  Fifty pounds of battery that embarrasses the 140 pounds they have replaced - with fqar great er energy and a longer life. My only regret is that Schultz had not been more emphatic when he recommended the LiFePo. I am sure your audio garage is far more interesting than mine. I do have a horrible time throwing things away.  Not much good at selling stuff either.  Every day I think about who would get stuck cleaning up my audio mess if i was to die before i could clean it up myself.

09-26-2022 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree rickmcinnis Posts 60 Joined on 10-18-2010 Post #: 1880 Post ID: 26906 Reply to: 26904 Voltage constancy One interesting thing about the inverter/battery is the constant AC voltage. My voltage is 122 volts 99% of the time with only a toggle up on the odd occasion and a toggle down on an even odder occasion. Since very few of us have power amplifiers with regulated power supplies for the output stage - I know I have never owned one - one wonders if one large advantage of doing this is this, almost, constant voltage?  Don't know what i did to change the font. I do not doubt this has been discussed before.  Would be interesting to hear if one can get by with simpler power supplies with this almost constant AC line voltage?  Could regulators be replaced by good old chokes?  I guess most folks would not want the weight.