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11-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 101
Post ID: 26548
Reply to: 26544
Caps change
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Thank you very much, it is very nice to learn about it. The dilemma that I see standing in front of me is following. In a 194 months, I have  my Remies completed and fully operational, sounding perfect after 2 hours, let's pretend. Should I change the 40 years old cops that I have in there. I do not know. Will I lose "magic" with it? Will I risk it? Will I have better sound but less Bermuda Triangle payload? I do have B3 amplifier with all new capacitors. It sounds very fine but no ''magic... I have no idea why. I did call to my technician and told that might be tooth I would like to recalibrated and serviced but at this point I'm a bit hesitant to release them as I have no idea what is that magic come from. Who knows, it's mine not even be capacitors but warmed up coils of red driver. I do not have answers in this point


The change of caps (together with protective diodes, etc) is in principle reversible but as far as I could google highly unpleasant. To change the main PSU caps one has to remove the output VFETs. Anyway should be no more than a day of work for a skilled tech.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-17-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005
Post #: 102
Post ID: 26550
Reply to: 26546
Time for a break
 Bill wrote:
You had that glorious sound with the 40 year old caps in the B2's and the Tannoy crossovers. Do you really want to move away from what they produced in your system. A good way of testing new vs. old caps would be to replace the tannoy original crossovers with your new English ones and hear the difference. With the Yamaha’s you could replace one cap at a time and see if there is any improvement or worsening. Then continue with other caps or replace the original depending on the findings. 

I'm also waiting for you to try the new crossover. Something tells me it will be wrong. The old  red 10" crossover has an impedance  matching transformer on the woofer to  match it's 4 ohm (or less impedance) to a16 Ohm tweeter and it may be run  wide open without any crossover. Tweeter  has probably variable inductor to set the preferred efficiency. Chaps from Britain probably used the circuit devised from Red 12". I never met a Brit willing to risk $400...  (potentially ruining  vintage  Tannoy Red crossover to figure out what's there and to be honest I was not willing to risk it either and I promptly sold my 10" Red's )  Replacing one cap at the time in Yamaha could take months of experiments..I think you need a few weeks of break from this to gain a proper perspective. 
11-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 103
Post ID: 26551
Reply to: 26548
Does history repeat itself?
In Macondo/Melquiades thinking, random process means random result - and that is exactly what happened with Dunnoy. A random driver was placed in a random cabinet with a random passive radiator and random cabinet damping. All subsequent attempts to reproduce the results (although the Dunnoys are now at a different location) have not been “successful” and the question now is if returning to the M/M logic will turn this sows ear into a silk purse.

I also wonder if applying previous logic to a goal of a low maintenance, high yield system would start the same way?

I have no doubt that the Tannoy coax driver can do much better than its engineers ever imagined but am interested more if the “random” honeymoon result can be matched by a “planned” system.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 104
Post ID: 26552
Reply to: 26391
Some important notes
I took this quote from Bill’s post in the Bermuda Triangles of Audio thread, and I did not want to pollute that thread. Still, I feel that subject is very worthy to address.
 Bill wrote:

3.Tannoy is worse in dynamics, but what non-horn speaker can match them for this parameter.
Here is where I disagree as there are more satellites in it. Unquestionably there are fact: Dannoy is 83dB and it is easy to make horns installation well over 100dB. Indeed the 10-15dB differences is huge deference but they are just numbers that not directly has connection to auditable experiences. There are plenty of horns out there that sound as they have sub 80db sensitivity and there are some direct radiators that with moderate 9x dB sensitivity sound very dynamic. There are plenty factors in place in here, but this is whole another subject. 
 
In context of given disagreement: I will not be talking about Tannoy as I honestly do not like it sound. I am talking about Dannoy, or a combination of Tannoy with my type of passive radiator. So, at the time it was the best in my room, I was very surprised as I did not feel the dynamic deficiency. I was thinking about it a lot and I feel that it is because Dannoy have very different balance between acoustic and tonal pressure from what we accustomed in audio and how we measure dynamic range. One pound of water and one pound of tabasco sauce weight the same but produce very different impact. What we measure sensitivity we use a concept of acoustic pressure not the tonal pressure. So, I have no problem with Dannoy low sensitivity numbers, in fact I think it has more proper dynamic impact then my horns as Mancondo could be brutal at time.
 
There was one aspect where Dannoy fatally loosing in the buttle with Mancondo and I am planning to fight with it, I have some tricks in my sleeves, hopefully. I am talking about rise sound. As a dense group of instruments increase of intensity, particularly during the slow rising crescendos Dannoys is falling very dramatically. It does fine with “simple sounds”, the little Mahlerian “popups” sound incredibly effective but it the rise happens across wider bandwidth and sound has very complex harmonic structure then Dannoy juts losing it. That rise is very important to me and in my view Macondo/Milq do the best rise I even witnessed in audio. It is very hard to get as the rise should be progressive and consistent, should have neither bandwidth of dynamic gups going up or down, should not under dramatize or over dramatize sound, should comply with a dozen of other requirements that I invented for myself. It is VERY hard to get. As great Macondo/Milq was in my Dannoy/SIT is nowhere even close. As I told I am planning to work on it, let see how it goes.
 
So, I would not say that “Tannoy is worse in dynamics”. First or all it is not Tannoy but Dannoy. Secondary, it is one commercial Yamaha B2 vs 12 custom build DSETs with channels loaded by ears. And the lastly: I did not work with it yet. If the things goes as I hope I should be able to get Remedios to have very good rise with no less ease and effortlessness as Macondo/Milq does. This hope is not tested yet.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 105
Post ID: 26553
Reply to: 26551
A valid observation, rowuk.
 rowuk wrote:
In Macondo/Melquiades thinking, random process means random result - and that is exactly what happened with Dunnoy. A random driver was placed in a random cabinet with a random passive radiator and random cabinet damping. All subsequent attempts to reproduce the results (although the Dunnoys are now at a different location) have not been “successful” and the question now is if returning to the M/M logic will turn this sows ear into a silk purse.

I also wonder if applying previous logic to a goal of a low maintenance, high yield system would start the same way?

I have no doubt that the Tannoy coax driver can do much better than its engineers ever imagined but am interested more if the “random” honeymoon result can be matched by a “planned” system.

I do feel that Remedios project is exactly what you are talking about: applying a sensible planned development to very much accidental result with Dannoy. The objectives of Remedios of cause juts be more attractive then Dunnoys but also am planning to develop it into something very special, using (in my view) very high Dunnoy’s start level.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-18-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 106
Post ID: 26554
Reply to: 26551
Pulling out spaghetti strings
Rowuk, seemingly you would like to see the creative process as sort of a clock-work machine where every step is a logical consequence of the previous. It doesn't work like that. To be precise it's only a part of the story. There has been an ongoing, hot debate weather the Nature is random or deterministic, lasting almost a century and initiated by the discovery of quantum mechanics (which was to some extent accidental - e.g. Planck had no slightest idea of what he was doing). Some circa 10 years ago Martin Heisenberg, a biologists, a son of one of the fathers of quantum mechanics Werner Heisenberg, shook the ground by publishing an article in a high impact journal (Nature was it?) saying IIRC that in biological systems, the evolution is a mix of both: random processes followed by more systematic, targeted development. What reading it I could not get what all the excitement was all about as the view is very natural and logical. For example, I've always viewed my own  thought processes in a similar fashion: There is a mix of +/- random thoughts and keeping my mind as open as I can, I pick ones that look promising and develop them by logical, clock-work like mechanical process. It is like looking at a random mix of spaghetti on a plate, all intertwined and entangled with each other, and picking the string that you like the most and then pulling it out of the mix until its logical end. I have a feeling something similar happens here: An accidental (=random) discovery of Dannoys serves a starting point to a series of logical steps leading in an evolutionary process to a, hopefully, more developed concept -- Remedies the Beauty.  I'm sure Romy will pull this spaghetti out till its very end.

Cheers,


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 107
Post ID: 26555
Reply to: 26554
Random Process= Random Result
Jarek,I am a professional musician, and am very much in "tune" with creative processes.
A random result is not automatically "bad", but because of its "randomness", there is a lot of ground to cover BEFORE one can even think about further steps. Case and point is the Dunnoy/Remedios that in spite of many similarities, behave completely differently.

Actually, my point was much different. Macondo/Melquiades is what it is and one reason for Romy experimenting was to reduce maintenance (in fact reducing a certain randomness related to a complex system...). Solid state is certainly lower maintenance than tube. We do not know what Remedios the Beautiful will look like - if it will be a 3 way, 4 way or 5 way... That does not even matter. 
I just wondered when approaching a project "lower maintenance" with a process, if the start would look differently. I do not believe that the Dunnoy is "accidental" (meaning Romy created the monster on purpose). The results over the short period of time were certainly random - and for the time being not even repeatable. That means, that it is not even a starting step. It is food for thought. I am not convinced that the Tannoys as a unit will withstand the test of time. They could very much be a step to something else... Romy has had other lower maintenance projects like the Mini Me ("A" sound from a "B" system) and Cetla91 - both documented here...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 108
Post ID: 26556
Reply to: 26555
I really hate those experiences …
 rowuk wrote:
Jarek,I am a professional musician, and am very much in "tune" with creative processes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq1JShEmLsk
 rowuk wrote:
I do not believe that the Dunnoy is "accidental" (meaning Romy created the monster on purpose). The results over the short period of time were certainly random - and for the time being not even repeatable. That means, that it is not even a starting step. It is food for thought. I am not convinced that the Tannoys as a unit will withstand the test of time. They could very much be a step to something else

This is very interesting perspective, and I was thinking about it a few times. To have some sobriety in it we need to know how it will end…
 rowuk wrote:
… is and one reason for Romy experimenting was to reduce maintenance (in fact reducing a certain randomness related to a complex system...

Actually, I more than disturbed with complexity of my playback and the fact that it's complexity frequently do not deliver good results. A few months ago, a dear audio friend have visited me, last time it was 20 years ago, so naturally I would like Macondo Milq to do what they can. It was 2 days visit, the first day we played analog only. Even I did not play records for a few months I know that my also is very stable foe yar and so I did play it. Even located off the listening spot I recognized that something is wrong. I checks a few things that might be variable and after final confirmation I declare that right now it should sound correct. it is still did not sound right, it was severe loss of mid bass to the point that it's feels that turntable is spinning faster. but everything that I know about the system suggested that everything functional perfectly and I just refuse to acknowledge there's something wrong, despite of the fact that something was wrong, and it was clearly auditable. The digital sound was completely perfect, but analog was horrendous, I check everything again and again and I did not see any reasons why analog should be bad. my friend went to sleep at whole night I was fighting with my analog and I still did not find what was wrong. next day we were listening to digital only, and next two weeks I was continuing to be fighting with my analog. I concluded that my CPU cartridge just died. A few months ago it was perfectly fine and I did not spin lot of records lately , so I hardly accepted it, as I did not detect gradual worsening sound in the past. it was a moth before the whole Dannoy event started, sometime in July. I was considering buying a different cartridge or rebuild this cartridge and investigated all kinds of options. I even gave my cartridge to a local friend of mine who claims that cartridge was perfect in his playback. I was continuing to fight with my analog playback, and it did not give me pleasure. I have too much it is going on in my life that to fight with stupid records is very much not my priority. Also, I do not want to waste $10K for something that my not need to be replaced. Eventually, Danlavy 2011, Dannoy and Remedios Project took my attention from cartridges and about a month ago I found the reason why my analog was compromise. I found it completely accidentally try to reach a dropped screw. it turned out then in a very bottom end of my SME 2012 tonearm a spider built a very think spider net leads between the end of the tonearm and stationary objects. That sucked out live form the performance of my analog. One way or another but my entire analog with my unique analog was not operable and I wasted huge amount of time to debug it. I really hate those experiences …

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-19-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 109
Post ID: 26557
Reply to: 26555
Process vs. Procedure
The "thing" in the case of Remedios is the (stated) desire to shape/determine/manifest the results using a different-than-usual process, more intuitive and more "heart felt". This does not mean ones head is not racing like a supercomuter, rather the part of the self that "illuminates" and "appreciates" takes conscious control. The results exist in the Matrix as determined by ones "sense" of the matter at hand. Of course it is all too easy to blow smoke up ones own arse, or make poor decisions while distracted, manic, discouraged, or simply misinformed. On the other hand, most of us routinely drive motor vehicles on public roads and highways, roll the effing dice to get 1/2 cup of cream. How crazy is that? The question is not whether we have to let go to move on, rather it's a matter of when we let go and what for.



Paul S
11-24-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 110
Post ID: 26561
Reply to: 26556
Crossover Las Vegas... Make your bets...
Today I had a promising experience. Bill is keep experimenting with his Dannoys and I was visiting him to see what's going on there, since I am still waiting for my panels and I can experience the Dannoy foreplay only valceruasly. We did a very useful experiment, he crossed the Dannoy with original crossovers I drove it is with a full bandwidth signal, without equalization of his digital shaitan machine. The sound in the end was okay with screaming typical deficiency of class d amplifier he used this time. He certainly needs another amplification and he is working on it. I am saying to sound was okay purely from audio perspective as from "mystery" it was nowhere, perhaps those sit amplifiers will do the trick. The sound was dynamically challenged and sound with colorations of burnes Autumn leaves - a typical Tannoy crap. Then Bill crossed his Dannoys at 80 cycles, and the bottom field is his subwoofer. The sound was still very nice altogether with exception of digital amplifier signature but Dannoy become so much less dynamically challenged and so much jumper. That was exactly what I was hoping for. 

I am planning to cross my Dannoys at 50 cycles and experiment with up and down. I feel that the bottom of Dannoys with Bill' subwoofer sound better than top of his subwoofer.  Keep my playlist crossover points up and down but it will affect the level of  Dannoys compression. It would be interesting to find a proper balance.

With Remedios it will be a little bit more complicated as it has on mid base channel which is superbly colorful. The the objective of this channel will be not to go for kill but to provide proper decay for Tannoy bass driver. If I need to go for the kill at lower frequencies than I have my sub 20 Hertz open baffle. See I will be playing the very same games as Bill to as I will be playing competition between bottom of the Tannoy and top of Vitavox 15, elso knowing that the higher and sharper I golf in crossover cuz the more Dynamics I will be unleashing from Dannoys. Make your bets where I will be ending up. My estimate that Bill will drop his crossover points to 40-60 cycles and I most likely will end up with 60-80 cycles...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 111
Post ID: 26563
Reply to: 26561
Over/Under on X/O
Well, the Vitavox is also a "paper driver" that has needs like the Tannoy (unless it is the "horn version"...), meaning the size and nature of the enclosure will affect the Vitavox sound, as well. I always thought the Altec 515 Bs were OK up to 500 Hz, so if anywhere near that for the Vitavox, that should give the Tannoy some breathing room. Of couse, we are talking about more than just SPL when we talk about acoustic blending at X/O points, and I do understand that your "goal" for the Tannoy is to recreate the Magic It you once got from it used as accidental Dannoys.  It seems very mysterious, indeed, to me that runing the 10" down would not choke it, also make more work for and more of a "contribution" from the amps. I find this mysterious aspect of the Dannoys particularly amusing and intriguing as I follow this saga. Whatever we "suppose", It Is what It Is.

Paul S
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 112
Post ID: 26564
Reply to: 26561
My bet is:
The crossover will be determined by the room and NOT the Tannoy. I remember a post where an 80 Hz room issue was covered by the crossover - I think from the woofer tower to the midbass back then. Then another post came where the woofer towers were disconnected and the Vitavox with open bottom. The crossover was 100-110 Hz to the horns.

My guess today is around 120-150 Hz

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 113
Post ID: 26565
Reply to: 26564
The Christmas is coming
Yes of course, rule going to be very much in play and certainly it will be impacted by specific response right and left channels to a given location. Even though the location is hugely variable and the speakers might be moved with the freedom of 6-7 ft back and forth. The correction certainly will be made in place. The key in here that the region 50-150 cycles is mostly what define high-end in my view and its quality so much important. To my great surprise Tannoy in the Dunnoy configuration do a remarkably well with an exception exceptions that the lower it goes that more it compresses. I do not know how 15  inch Vitavox will be standing against Dannoy at let say 100 hz. The hundred Hertz from Dannoy it is not the same as from boxed or ported Tannoy red. Very very different sound. In addition I would like to stay as lover-order crossover as possible and hopefully will be able to go away with first-second order low pass for Vitavox. It certainly would be interesting to investigate... My panels are shipped tomorrow and it sounds like it will be Sonic Christmas...

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 114
Post ID: 26566
Reply to: 26561
And the lower pair?
 Romy the Cat wrote:
...Then Bill crossed his Dannoys at 80 cycles, and the bottom field is his subwoofer. The sound was still very nice altogether with exception of digital amplifier signature but Dannoy become so much less dynamically challenged and so much jumper. That was exactly what I was hoping for. 

And what about the lower ScanSpeak pair from the original Dunlavy bass tower? Are they used or Bill has a smaller box with just the Tannoy + 1 passive radiator? Sorry for being a bit pesadito with this question but I'm trying to understand which exactly configuration Bill has. 


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 115
Post ID: 26567
Reply to: 26566
I do not believe...
...that the Dunlavys have ever been in the mix N-Set.  Pretty sure they are parked up in the corner with the rest of Macondo/Melquiades.
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 116
Post ID: 26568
Reply to: 26567
Here:
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26299#26299
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26297#26297
But from Bill wrote I assume he has the upper box from this pic

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=26241#26241
Bill, would it be possible for you to take a pic of your Dannoy to "set the ground"?

Cheers,


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 117
Post ID: 26569
Reply to: 26568
My understanding...
...is that Dannoy were conceived and built in that upper box:  pull out one Scanspeak 10" and put in the Tannoy 10".  The remainder of the Dunlavy tower is redundant.
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 118
Post ID: 26570
Reply to: 26568
Dannoy photo
The toilet paper is Romy's way of moderating the tweeter by a dB or two.Cannot load the photo. The box is about 3x11/2x1 foot with the Tannoy driver above the one Vitavox.
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010
Post #: 119
Post ID: 26571
Reply to: 26568
Dannoy photo
The toilet paper is Romy's way of moderating the tweeter by a dB or two.I tried to upload picture but Romy's rules won't allow it or I am wrong in how it is done.
11-25-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006
Post #: 120
Post ID: 26572
Reply to: 26571
Gallery
Bill, pls upload first to the gallery, give it a definite name and then paste to the post using the pic icon. Thanks for your effort.


Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  Macondo's Axioms: Horn-loaded acoustic systems..  A link to another thread....  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     120  680784  07-29-2007
  »  New  Dannoy 2021 Loudspeakers..  It is all bout me....  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     24  35210  08-04-2021
  »  New  Bermuda Triangles of Audio..  Tannoy carton issues...  Playback Listening  Forum     5  12772  11-09-2021
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