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09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Wojtek
Pinckney (MI), United States
Posts 178
Joined on 09-01-2005

Post #: 81
Post ID: 26347
Reply to: 26344
Is it really restricted only for the stuff you build?
If the setup is semi acceptable, after ten years one should lose the evaluation part of listening experience and treat the system like a kitchen radio or car playback and simply enjoy the music. I think ten years is a minimum to achieve the position of indifference to quality of particular installation if the starting point is high enough and taste matured. Isn't the "end of life " kind of setup matured enough?  Change of direction sounds like a sale ad on Audiogon and this would be the last audio site I'd expect to hear  it but like they say in Poland "Only cow does not change it's ways ". I have to admit that  some years ago I bought a pair of mint looking Tannoy 10" red only because Roman vaxed about them so much. They were kind of pathetic and none of the "modern" amps I had at that time (SET or PP ) were able to drive them. Only vintage pos Leak TL50 + monos were somewhat acceptable and produced some music. The speakers sailed to far east and I'm sure the new owner was ecstatic. For all of you out there ready to junk your vitavox S2 based installation and change the direction (if you didn't already buy Doomlavy III and now you're hung dry because Focal TN51 tweeter is nowhere to be found ) I have a warning that 60 years old Tannoy 10" red crossover is a sealed unit you won't be able to update and that nobody has the correct diagram of that crossover since Tannoy archive was consumed by fire. You may be lucky like Roman and get wonderfully performing units or most likely you will get a dud. Having said that I'm glad that "end of life" stuff is a moving target and life goes on. Kind of regret I won't be able to hear Macondo and enjoy all of it's complexity. New system surely seems  closer to an "old man " retirement project in a way. 
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 82
Post ID: 26348
Reply to: 26347
Red tens
 Wojtek wrote:
I have a warning that 60 years old Tannoy 10" red crossover is a sealed unit you won't be able to update and that nobody has the correct diagram of that crossover since Tannoy archive was consumed by fire.


I have a pair of Red 10" here that I have never bothered to listen to and one crossover is good but the other is dysfunctional and could easily be pulled apart to get a schematic.  Have never followed it up before but surely someone else has pulled their crossover apart?  Apparently not...

Just about all of the other things expressed in your post have run through my head previously.
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 83
Post ID: 26349
Reply to: 26347
Sea Change
Interesting theory, Wojtek. While I have often and long forgotten about various components through any given decade, it seems like transducers have come to mind more often than other components when I’ve wanted “significant change”, for whatever Music-based reasons. In any case, it’s been Music that I’ve listened to, and how I listen to it, that’s driven most of my audio gear changes, and my own “personal lexicon of Sound” has been an evolving tool for keeping track of the Sound of the Music as I hear it.   Listening to Romy, it sounds to me like the gear changes he’s implementing are predicated on his wish to change how he listens, with (no doubt) some (inevitable) back-and-forth between listening and the speaker/amp/room situation as he goes forward. Because audio is personal, how we listen very certainly affects what we hear, and vice-versa.

Paul S
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 84
Post ID: 26350
Reply to: 26347
Ok, I play...
Wojtek, to some degree what your share is correct sentiments but your position has two faulty presumptions presumptions. First presumption suggests  that most of  people out there strictly idiots and they have no own brain but just listen towards BS internet people wax about audio design online. Even it is to a great degree typical but neither of us feel that it is normal. Second presumption suggests that I am idiot and either cannot distinct what is good and what is bad or being stressed by some kind of geriatric illness willing to scope down my exposure to other while keeping noble public face. Your opinion certainly is my narcissism but in reality it has nothing to do with what you propose. Macondo and Milq design principles are undoubtedly more advanced audio and for all intended purpose it produces results accordingly. The point that I am trying to make is that I do not feel in this period of my life that I need the best. When you are a teenager you feel disappointment because the legs of your girlfriend 2 in shorter than your friend's girlfriend. At my fifties I am very comfortable and content with the size of my wife legs and to my surprise I do not even fantasize about other. At the same talking Macondo produced much much more sophisticated sound, in fact my wife greatly perform a condo over my new speaker ideas. But it is not about absolute sound but about my ability to consume it. To a degree to maintain the system in complexity like Macondoa full-time job. I had countless and countless listening session over the last few years where I clearly recognize a certain things went out the alleged perfection and I clearly knew what I need to do. I just did not have enough motivation to do it. For instance I need to roll back S2 low pass filter probably for 500 degree lower. Probably drivers got the magnetized but I do not see myself right now to unleash another modernization project. I have zilion aspects that I would like to perform with my Macondo but I have two other things which compete for my attention nowadays. Could I feel comfortable hearing what is not in the way how I would like it to be. Of course I could, the problem is that I know how to resolve those problems and that keep me quite stressed.

Let's not talk about the new speaker that I will be using at this point. I completely share your sentiments about reds I own a few speakers and few drivers over the course of many years and although I always appreciate very measured syrupy quality of them I always hatef them to use as the only solution. What I will be doing in Remedies will be quite differently they will sound quite differently and in my estimation that is sound that agreed upon.  I do not think I ever proposed anybody to repeat my experiments with Reds. To get properly sounding Reds is hard, to get properly sounding 15" Vitavoxes is hard. To figure out how properly load our 16 year old drivers in acoustic suspension is kind of all of the board. I did get something good works out for me can I honestly have no idea why it works. I didn't encourage people to try Dunlavys with focal Twitter but not because it produce some kind of stunning result but because whatever it does is produces the result which would stop the majority of us many years ago in our pursue for higher end audio. I am not kidding. And this experiment to vorthy to do for own sake.  The stinky Dunlavies push flat down to 17 cycles in my right corner. This contemporary 7-in drivers they produce surprisingly horny bass, they sound insultingly dynamic, it is literally something that I never experienced from even serious box speaker but I have it from pretty much large mini monitor driven by a cheap soul state amp. I'm not kidding, I literally call to some people I know who make money on audio and proposed them to give them the dunleavy 2021 idea, suggesting them that it is easier well north over 100k sound of loudspeaker. He was able not busy by other projects you would be seeing another Majico or Kharma paranoia in audio but bilt around $300 drivers and $1,000 enclosure.




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
09-30-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 85
Post ID: 26352
Reply to: 26348
Well....
Anthony, it is not the subject of this thread but I am replying you since you raised a question. Is there are a lot of conspiracies about Tannoy vintage crossovers. They did many different versions and all of them well known. If somebody need I can hook you up with contemporary guys in UK who do Tannoy crossovers of any version you want. There is really nothing complicated or mischievous there. There are a few ways to kill some resonances at high frequency driver and it is up to you if you choose to do it. That Bass driver is a regular straight second order. The bottom range of Tannoy is very lucrative but very colored and not particularly will work well this dynamic amplification. You cannot drive 10 inch read this sub 20w SET, it will sound like crap regardless of amp. You need to have more brutal force towards the driver but it has no lot of excursion and if you push it to its bottom level you will have compression and fragility. The acoustically suspended with ultra low frequency passive regulator it sounds completely different and might be very surprisingly be effective at 40-50 Hertz region. Those 50 cycles with passive radiator for whatever reason do not sound like 50 cycles but sound surprisingly rich. By the way tannoy did same model of loading this TT 225 model if not mistaken, it was not vintage and got PA use. Still despite everything in my new speaker I will be unloaded low frequency from Reds, most likely somewhere around 75 cycles and at the bottom it will be supported by 15 inch  sealed Vitavox. This is basically the whole design of Remedies the Beauty. In the heart of everything is 10 inch red ,compression driver and everything else just organically derives from it. My original box for experimenting with red and passive regulator I bought for 45 bucks at eBay from a store which sell car audio. I had plenty of friends and plenty of my scanspeak woofers, it is just was an accident that the box had two identical 10- holes is there which seduced me...

I do feel that red loaded this passive radiator with any good complementary vintage bass driver, like Altecs should work out. My experiments with this configuration where superbly encouraging. It does sound significantly more colored and more round than my Macondo but it also sound astonishingly non-conflictus and peaceful. I had for a while two systems back back and this invitedness, non-abusive nature and my absolute lack of critiques about that sound made me to make the decision. It is very important to note that I do not consider sound from my new speaker completely problem free. But for whatever reason it doesn't make me to object it but instead it gives very harmonious experience. 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-01-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 86
Post ID: 26353
Reply to: 26350
Big bass horn Lamborghini
I think I can imagine how a complex, sophisticated presentation can be too "unnecessarily demanding", in lieu of a better phrase, in a long run in family life circumstances.  I sometimes suffer similar problems (I imagine others too).

Going back in time to your Super Macondo with the midbass horn, I'm wondering how did the big horn influence your perception of Macondo sound if you remember? Was it "a stunning girl" but even with two Lamborghinis or perhaps more relaxed?  I was a big fan of your architectural  midbass horn implementation at your previous localization, it was absolutely brilliant.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-01-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 87
Post ID: 26355
Reply to: 26353
Some sharing....
+++ Going back in time to your Super Macondo with the midbass horn, I'm wondering how did the big horn influence your perception of Macondo sound if you remember?

Yes, it is very very good question and essentially the question which relates to the birth Remedies.

Let's start from beginning. I am very much like you admire myself for idea how I implemented my mid-basss horn. To have this huge machinery completely invisible in listening room was a great accomplishment and it is no surprise that I was looking for a house to buy for a year. I have written in the past that when the first time come to that house during open house event I saw that triangular wall and the size of the living room the next few years of my life immediately formulated in my head. Furthermore, even my Carpenter admired my project. She is very smart guy, who actually built theatrical decorations around the world and to be still when we meet each other we still remind ourselves how great that project was.

Regarding the sound. The midbass horn was fine and was certainly superbly usable. Was it absolutely perfect? I would say no and there are multiple reasons which has nothing to do with horn concepts. It was driven by bass channel of Milq and it's required to have different output transformer. Since I used what I had in my view the bass driver was loading the amplifier too much. I did change it once it was not enough and I did not go for further experiments as it is too much efforts. Also,  in my view, I did not have good lowest frequency channel to be able to support that horn. Still.  was still very good but I did heard better midbass sound from this driver under different circumstances. If see, even my blackbak in my former listening room was solidified  and pretty much did not change from my listening room in Boston, there were always some kind of actions with this. It did not prevent me to listen my music but purely from other perspective over the course of 6 years that I lived there there was one single night, and I very much remember it was a new year night 2012, when my installation sounded from my perspective absolutely not compromised, and in fact it was one of the best sounds I ever heard in my life from any installation. I was so shocked with the result that I was getting that I even sent a few emails to other people is whom I not in a good friendship and said set results that I was getting is UNESCO level event and if they would like I would permit them in my listening room. So only best result I ever heard in my life it was when I lived in the city and my avant-garde horns, driven by lamm solid state electronics accidentally hit DPoLS for 2 days. Still, as you can understand to live in a place for 6 years and to have one single listening night when playback sounded the way how I want is not too exciting. 

I do not have mid midbass hon since 2016 and I always thought that I will be missing it. To my huge surprise I didn't. I stuck the same mid bass driver into sealed enclosure and I use it as direct radiator driven by is the same Milq bass channel, only now the driver does not have throat reaction. I very much like the result but here I have infinite buffle  low frequency channel is that acts remarkably similar and remarkably different than humongous base horns. It is very difficult to equate everything and bring to a common denominator.  They are all different but they are not necessary better than worse.

Here is where the whole notion of Remedies come from, from desire to stabilize environment and make it super simple. For the last couple years I have a numerous of visitors included my close friends who stopped by to listen and for one or other reasons system were not apparatable. I am so confident that my Macondo produces wonderful result that in many instances I did not even acknowledge that same thing is wrong. It's a very last time a guy come to hear my new Dynalavys and I was so confident that they do spectacular job that I failed to acknowledge that I connected right and left channels to same Mono amplifier and while guy complained about Mono sound I did not take it close to my mind. One of the amazing things that hugely attracted me in Dannoy voice that I have two black box of the shelf amplifiers connected to to a pair of black box speakers, does that have no variance and I have some kind of default sound that I consider a remarkably good and not abusive for my perception.  I hope I did share my feelings accurately


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-03-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 88
Post ID: 26362
Reply to: 26355
A good deal of sincerity
Perhaps I'm in a minority here, but while I enjoy your videos, I very much prefer your old style writing Smile

If I read you correctly the big midbass did not release the "intellectual tension/demand" of Macondo/Milq. Perhaps I'm wrong or oversimplifying but it seems to me that at least a part of your "problem" with Macondo is an incarnation of the eternal intellect/emotions dichotomy with Macondo being shifted too much on the intellectual side.


I think I remember your very particular description of the "singular event" (it must have been earlier than 2012, right?) Each sound came as a bubble of a micro nuclear explosion. Resembled the famous description from Solaris of Stanislaw Lem, just more involving.


On a side note, it does  take some courage and sincerity to admit that such a grandiose, *own* project was "just" "fine and superbly usable" and you don't miss it. Chapeau bas Romy, most audio people would swear by their mothers it was the best thing in the galaxy even if they bought it instead of making themselves. BTW, what happened to a French guy from here who was building a similar huge midbass from a reinforced plaster?


Good luck



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-03-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 89
Post ID: 26363
Reply to: 26362
Good question
 N-set wrote:
If I read you correctly the big midbass did not release the "intellectual tension/demand" of Macondo/Milq. Perhaps I'm wrong or oversimplifying but it seems to me that at least a part of your "problem" with Macondo is an incarnation of the eternal intellect/emotions dichotomy with Macondo being shifted too much on the intellectual side.

This is the whole point. I have no idea where that “intellectual tension/demand" came from. From architectural perspective in Macondo/Milq the this were done in my view very properly and I at lost to identify what is responsible in there for an intellectual burden. I proposed that it is because I conceived it. What took me by storm was the fact the Dannoy instantaneously had no intellectual pressure at all, and this is in positive connotation. It naturally perfectly time aligned, and it has immensely addictive sound and I am sure that I will be able to make it good audio quality, I have a LOT of tools. The most stanning in all of it that as much I did not know why Macondo “did it” I have no idea why Dannoy “do not do it”. Might be in future I will discover what in Dannoy make be to sight for it but for now I have no time to dig into it. Too many other things compete for my time and the most important: the answer of this question do not give anything to me that I already do not have. If I have any committal interest in Audio, I would capitalize the Dannoy finding and would go after it. But as I care less about Audio business all that I need it to have fine result in my listening room and do not care about reasons.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 90
Post ID: 26365
Reply to: 26363
One more thought
I have not done this myself but have been thinking about this for a few months. Maybe it would be useful to see the distortion profile of the Dannoy speaker. It's a long shot but maybe this intangible "content" Romy is talking about has something to do with the pleasing distortion profile of the way Dannoy measures. Then measure Macondo distortion profile. My idea has always been that the distortion should not be as low as possible but the profile of the distortion that there is should be linear across the drivers. So by this logic there may be areas where to linearize it, you have to do something to add, where is it too low. One last measure before long term storage solution.
10-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 91
Post ID: 26366
Reply to: 26365
Romy the Cat as a peace maker...
Yes, it's might be interesting. I was thinking about it when I had both systems back to back. It was superbly interesting time for me. The decisions to remove Macondo from my listening room was a result of unadulterated anger I felt because in my mind Macondo was not able to defeat the stinky Dannoy. You need to understand how I felt building for 20 years complex sophisticated sound reproduction principle and then suddenly to have Dannoy accident literally wiped out and converted to ridiculous all my efforts and all my knowledge. I'm not kidding it was so good.

I very much do not think that story with Macondo is over. Macondo and Milq is not just a specific installation but a set of implemented principles and I very much believe and support those principles. I was very seriously considering to replace in Macondo midrange and Twitter channels with Tannoy Red, the problem is that Milq can I drive Tannoy Twitter and it breaks everything apart. I am a few hours work away to bring my old installation back to my listening room. I am planning not to do it now as I would like to squeeze everything possible out of Dannoy concept. Not the last notion in my head is that my two boys express an interest who is going to get Daddy Big speakers after they send Daddy to nursing home... I do not want them to fight...


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 609
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 92
Post ID: 26367
Reply to: 26363
Transpersonal intellectual burden
For what's its worth but our common acquaintance David K did describe to me your sound as "too brainly" once so perhaps not only you feel that intellectual burden?? Pity I've never had a chance to listen to your Macondo. I actually like intellectually challenging sound.



Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
10-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 93
Post ID: 26369
Reply to: 26367
A porcupine?
 N-set wrote:
For what's its worth but our common acquaintance David K did describe to me your sound as "too brainly" once so perhaps not only you feel that intellectual burden?? Pity I've never had a chance to listen to your Macondo. I actually like intellectually challenging sound.

Well, David’s description of my sound as "too brainly" is perfectly accurate as he is a republican and therefore for him anything above porcupine is too brainy. To be a little bit more on serious side, David generally not in "active navigation of complexity" side of the things. In term of electronics and speakers he is in a different line of business as he does not create anything there but he browse the park of availabilities and trying to catch something outstanding. He is good and what he is doing but he not actively navigates sound by his decision making from point a to point b. I think he does something like this with turntables but in terms of loudspeakers he just has no own ammunition to put in fight. It is not that he cannot recognize worthy things, but he has no means to move sound from one state to another state without acquiring a new completed by somebody solution. It is certainly not what I do. Personally, I am huge fan of "too brainy” system and for me a main problem with most of the systems out have no intellectual burden. The best listening session that I ever had in my life where when I visited people with sound the has a lot to say and the whole fun was not hear that sound but to talk with the system owner about his feelings regarding his messages.
 
The new Dannoy concept is feels like has different communication paradigm with own expressivity. It is not necessary let complex or less brainy but rather more companionate and kinder. I do not know how much “brainy” the new Dannoy concept will have in a long run. The new Remedies the Beauty will be different from Dannoy and it will be interesting to learn what it will do. There is a remote change that Remedies will screw up anything that I value in Dannoy and I have no idea what in Dannoy makes me so much like it’s sound.  It is like the Canadian PowerPlant people: the regenerator sound spectacular but no one, even them, know why it sound so good, so the key in here is not fuck it up….


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-04-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 94
Post ID: 26370
Reply to: 26369
"More", or More for Less?
It remains to be seen if the foray into more nurturing, compassionate sound can be accomplished intuitively, or how much mind it will take to manifest the "solution". I go back to what sounded like frustration with a very complex system, and I know from my own experience what it's like to be hearing, say, the drifted tonearm settings through the Music. How much "slack" can we build into a system and still get satisfactory results? What "results" are we looking for? We always talk about "High Demands" audio around here, and, despite I like to think I've "dialed it back" over the last 5 or 6 years, I don't see myself caring less about the Sound I'm getting, rather I like to think I've figured out how to get to and better maintain an "acceptable" level with less drama and ceremony. I have to say, it is still nice that once in a while the electricity is great, and I am reminded of how good my system really is, in terms of my own Musical Satisfaction.


Paul S
10-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
noviygera


Chicago, IL
Posts 177
Joined on 06-12-2009

Post #: 95
Post ID: 26372
Reply to: 26367
No doubts
I have no doubts that the disassembly of Macondo was NOT due to simplification of life or getting old or becoming tired reasons. It is very possible that something better came along. I know this because I am in the exact same situation. I took apart my active 4 way horn stack one year ago because I wanted to test out a different sound system. Ever since that day, the horns are apart, sitting in the same room on the floor and I am to this day "testing" the temporary sound system. In other words, it has become my source of sound that I subconsciously embraced. I don't know what to do and how this happened. In my mind I am planning to put the horns back together but really, there is no reason until I can describe to myself how I ended up here. But it is what it is and one must admit the evident. This black box powered PA system sounds better most of the time and the challenge for me is to understand how this is possible. As a way to verify my switch I even set up a second !!!! temporary system, at the same time and it consists of passive Tannoy 12" speakers and Lavardin solid state amp. 

It has been over a year, maybe more and I have been trying to formulate what the hell has actually happened. So here is what I think: drinkability

I began to understand that, every time I am listening to the new system my brain is working less to hear and feel the music. Before, listening to my 4way horns demanded more of my already lacking brain processing power. It took an effort on a level that I cannot control, to piece together the sound into the acceptable form for my brain. This was not obvious and only became so now, when I removed myself from the fairytale world that I created. I wanted to understand how and why. By "drinkability" I mean easily digestible and continuously consuming. Like water, as opposed to coffee. The consumption of sound became like water when I put my previous efforts to the side.

Actually, my 4 way horns sounded good to me. They produced good sound and in it's singularity each horn channel was sounding good as well. But the intake part of the listening experience, it is clear now, was not as easy as drinking water. 

To come to this realization was a difficult. I have gone through stages of reflection and acceptance. In the beginning it was disturbing, then I was sad and confused and then I realized that it is a good challenge, it was an opportunity. Now I can even say that I am excited to face the challenge. This is the path I took but the most interesting part is to understand what I learned along this path and what to do with this now. 

My theory is that drinkability was brought to me by a combination of sound perception factors: point source, phase accuracy and maybe some agreeable distortion profile, in that order of importance. The first two factors, I have a feeling, have become critical to my acceptance of sound. This has been proven by various tests and experiences I had since I took the big horns down. 

I still miss certain things that the big horns did for me. Now I am thinking how to combine the good from the old and the new. 

Romy, I would probably try combining the two upper channels of Macondo into a single channel and listening to that before the permanent vacation
10-07-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 96
Post ID: 26373
Reply to: 26369
Moving from conductor to audience
What Romy has done up until now is very similar to what a conductor of an orchestra does:
Search for music to perform
Build the ensemble to play it
Decide on the venue to perform in
Train all of the forces involved to play in accord
In real time, guide the performance - sometimes with clues ahead of the beat, sometimes in synchronous

How often do top conductors attend performances of colleagues? Almost never! Why? Because as a member of the audience, they still have the same things going on  in their heads - but none of the control - the performance is no longer in sync with their "biorhythm". There is no freedom for exploration with the ensemble. I believe that what is "pleasure" for others becomes "work" for them and that in many cases, they prefer to read a score rather than listen to someone elses interpretation. Another issue is that the instruments sound different from a distance, this makes for a lot of perceptual work in the brain.

Melquiades/Macondo definitely fits into the description of "an ensemble that must be conducted". Perhaps Romy assumed a role of conductor (without necessarily wanting to be one) many years ago, but has now discovered that he would prefer to be in the audience. That is a much different experience than from stage center. Could Macondo/Melquiades be "tuned" to perform at this different level? I do not know.

If I had to describe what my gut level feeling is about Melquiades/Macondo (having never heard them), I would say "perspective from the front row" or perhaps with specific recordings, "on the conductor stand". This is the vantage point of the microphones during the recording. The big Dunlavys (having heard them) I would more describe as "row 15". Far enough away from the ensemble, but a huge change of perspective. Softer, but not necessarily less detailed.

I have often thought about recordings with control over the seating position. In certain halls, I prefer to be closer to the stage, in other venues, further away, in others, it does not matter. I am not aware of any attempt to make this possible.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
10-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 97
Post ID: 26374
Reply to: 26373
Here we go...



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 335
Joined on 08-18-2014

Post #: 98
Post ID: 26375
Reply to: 26374
It is always the room
Romy, yes it is an interesting subject and one that I have thought quite a bit about although not directly from the angle from which you are approaching it.

One of Macondos great strengths is narrow directivity from high frequencies all the way down to below the Schroeder frequency of even modest rooms.  Its high sensitivity (110dB/w/m or so) is gained not only by using high sensitivity transducers, but also the tractrix horns and directional ribbon tweeter which effectively focus the sound waves forward and remove much of the reflection from within the room so that the listener, in near-field, hears a much higher ratio of direct sound compared to reflected sound.  Due to the Macondo topology, which is the antithesis of a point-source, any room reflections are going to sound quite a bit different to the direct sound, hence it will work in envionments where the incidence of early reflected sound is low.

Think about your setup issues in the latest very large room.  My recollection is that you started by attempting to spread the speakers wider and sit further away than in previous installations, but you ended up back in the near-field because they sounded better.  My theory is that because Macondo is not a topology where you want to hear the room that you had to move back to a position where most of the room is removed from the sound (fewer early reflections).

Harmon did a whole bag of research into what makes good sound and basically what they found is that at least for wider directivity loudspeakers in non-ideal rooms where early reflections are an issue (i.e. most rooms), a point-source with a linear power response will generally win out.  Of course there are a lot of other things to consider.  For me narrow directivity wins hands down over normal or omni-directional, and having that directivity stay narrow down to below the rooms Schroeder Frequency is paramount.  You now have a large room, perhaps too large, maybe Macondo gets omnidirectional before the room modes kick in and you need a larger mid-bass or upperbass horn to accommodate?

Where you ponder speaker sensitivity in the video above what I think about is not the 110db/w/m vs 100db/w/m per se, but the methods necessary to achieve that high sensitivity i.e. the width of directivity.  Narrow directivity for the listener generally means much more direct sound compared to reflected sound which is a cleaner, more precise sound unburdened by what the early room reflections are telling you (the Macondo topology reflections come back to the ear sounding different to what came out of the loudspeaker).  To me, loudspeakers that spray sound throughout the room (open baffle, omnidirectional, many box speakers) sound like what your mouth feels like if you don't brush your teeth for a week, but they do sound better if point-source with linear power response...just not as good as Macondo.

So after all this, what I posit is happening is that either you have tired of the direct sound of Macondo and yearn for a sound that involves more room reflection, or that Macondo is not suited for your new room perhaps due to directivity no longer being controlled below Schroeder.  I also think that your preamp is holding back Macondo (at least it was holding back mine), but that is another subject.   
10-08-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 99
Post ID: 26376
Reply to: 26375
Very interesting!
Anthony, this is very interesting perspective. I associate my feeling in respect to sensitivity but you brought up the activity as something which certainly coupled with sensitivity. I do not think that we have a mythologically clean experiment how we get one without another so the answer will be hanging in the air. What I found in your hypothesis is very interesting that my frustration with my condo begin developed after I spent a lot of time playing with the room reverberation. It might be two view on it. First, that I developed more taste to hear more reflective sound where Macondo is certainly in disadvantage to other wild spraying speakers.  Second, is that reverberation injections changed the way how Macondo should be designed properly.

I was thinking about it a lot when I first discovered reverberation injection in a few months ago. It is not that reverberation fundamentally change anything about Macondo. However I spent a long time playing with Macondo trying to find appropriate loading to output transformers with given specific drivers. As you know you can drastically change virility of attack and decay of response by idle more or idle less output tube of amplifier. Each tube behaves differently, each amplifier behave differently each power supply behave differently and of course each driver react differently. Part of the whole idea of the proposed Macondo-Milq assembly that it represent from my point of view balance loading how different channels supposed to be loaded in context of given drivers to produce overall sounds that I consider proper sound across various actabes and various dynamic ranges. So 3 months ago when I was discovering reverberation injection I was asking myself multiple questions if my judgment about drivers loading should be revised in context of listening with injected reverberations. I don't have answers but it is very possible that it should be as much as it is very possible that my relationship is listening distance in context of Macondo might be revised in a long run.

It would be very interesting to hear Bill's view on the subject. He has been listening surround, not reverberated but surround sounds, for many years and he is much more sensitive  an experienced to the subject of reflections then me. He is kind of freak over nature who informed me that he hears the reflections that one of my wall cup of feet closer to loudspeakers than another. I do not have the sensitivity and although I feel that it has very little practical meaning but purely from prospective that you present it might be useful to consult with him.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
10-09-2021 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 438
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 100
Post ID: 26377
Reply to: 26376
My thoughts on horns as authoritarian instances
Being a trumpeter, I certainly have an opinion about this - on many levels.
I believe one of the major benefits of a trumpet (horn) is the ability to completely melt into the orchestral fabric or with ease move outside when MY voice in my opinion has more to say. Other (non brass) instruments are much more dependent on the rest of the orchestra "getting out of the way"! Brass instruments are however, controlled in real time and the "orchestral fabric" consideration involve the expressional intelligence and actions of the player.

If we contrast this to horn loudspeakers, we more or less have a static relationship to the fabric of playback. We can not in real time choose what projects out of that fabric or what "melts".

Now we need to consider how recordings are made - generally with microphones in the very near field. This is NOT the geometry or perspective that we have in the audience. The real issue here however is that the sound of instruments changes with distance. Violins, violas and flutes being directive upwards, get more "room effects" from the ceiling - the articulation also becomes much less apparent. Brass instruments are more directional and the sound changes with distance but not as much and the articulation remains prominent. Woodwinds are all over the place but like with violins have a great proportion of "room effects" when we are in the audience. Regardless of which instrument, the high frequency response also deteriorates or gets homogenized in a concert setting.

This is one of the aspects of being a "conductor". Very immediate sound, little early reflections or concert hall - everything is "overly" dynamic. When we compare this to being in the audience, each instrument group behaves in different ways - but the horns only have one way - reproduce what was recorded where everything is distorted in perspective by close microphones. In this respect, the truth can hurt. Horns are not the problem, recordings mixed from multiple too closely miked channels disturb at a level not easily analysed.

I am sure that "better speakers" like the Dunlavys simply make the music melt - I wrote row 15 as this is my favorite seat in the Frankfurt Alte Oper and other excellent halls. I am not sure that horns MUST, by architecture default to "out of the fabric" dynamics. I am sure that this is a choice that is made during voicing - something that conductors also must do with their brass players.

On a completely different level, "modern musicians" play more or less with just intonation. This creates a lot of resultant tones (acoustic intermodulation) that are not necessarily related to the tonality. This effect (non perfect intonation through vibrato and other means) gives the string section a certain sheen. The brass players also have a characteristic "sound" based on similar intermodulation effects. Historic performing practice performances often use "mean tone" which has the resultant tones in tune with the fundamentals and overtones. I have noticed in my own system (hybrid horn) that the recorded resultant tones in romantic and modern orchestral repertory stick out unnaturally. We often "blame" the play of some of the musicians for this, but perhaps something else is in the way. The "better" HIP recordings are much more cohesive - perhaps more considerate of what the horn will do with the intermodulation.

I could write books about what I hear on stage, in the audience and at home. My goal for playback is to make row 15 the plausible entity.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
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