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03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 61
Post ID: 25324
Reply to: 25322
Another lost soul?
Djjjj,you completely misunderstand what this website is. It is Romys personal diary. It is not a DIY blog, it is not a venue for commercial exposure. 

I recommend that you first read the posts on the Macondo axioms, then rethink why the ESD would have extreme room for improvement. The problem is not what they do, but what they do NOT do. Maybe the sound made you cry. If they were doing more right, imagine what result then. If you cannot imagine the next big step, you are the perfect target for the next $100,000 upgrade...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Djjjj
Posts 13
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 62
Post ID: 25325
Reply to: 25323
I will disappear when no more disgusting information sent to my E-mail from your website again
When you guessed ESD or my employees were doing copies or cheapie, when u doubted we just embraced some of the Bruce’s idea like a thief before knew nothing abut my company & my team, I kept silent. I just told you politely that we co-operated with Dr Bruce Edgar & Sam Saye seriously and sent u picture to prove it.
I would thank u than u visited us in NY show. I should glad whether u like our products or not. I should not hope everyone like my system. And I do appreciate your criticism and any suggestion.
But I or my company won't accept any insult like IDIOT, STUPID, etc. 
This is your website but almost any people can visit it, so it is a public area, you don't have the right to hurt me or my company publicly even you don't like my company or products.
I don't have any interesting to visit your website before many disgusting information be sent to my E-mail when u review this blog.
I don't have any interesting to do commercial with u or your website, never.  I just contact with a honorable fellow.
I will disappear when no more disgusting information sent to my E-mail from your website again.
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Djjjj
Posts 13
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 63
Post ID: 25326
Reply to: 25324
Thank u
Hello rowuk
I am very curious whether u have ever listened our system, or had ever seen our system.I believe u didn't study my system well, so I don't know why u knew our system would have extreme room for improvement.
I am curious whether u know many worldwide famous audio company in Europe of USA is far small than our company, always less than 10 persons.So, why do u think our system is DIY but many products form smaller company in your country or USA are not?
Even so, I should thank you for your suggestion.I would like to tell u that we have a powerful engineers team and we know we are doing. We develop very fast and very healthy.
Thanks.
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 64
Post ID: 25327
Reply to: 25325
I guess it begs my answer…
 Djjjj wrote:
When you guessed ESD or my employees were doing copies or cheapie, when u doubted we just embraced some of the Bruce’s idea like a thief before knew nothing abut my company & my team, I kept silent. I just told you politely that we co-operated with Dr Bruce Edgar & Sam Saye seriously and sent u picture to prove it.
I would thank u than u visited us in NY show. I should glad whether u like our products or not. I should not hope everyone like my system. And I do appreciate your criticism and any suggestion.
But I or my company won't accept any insult like IDIOT, STUPID, etc. 
This is your website but almost any people can visit it, so it is a public area, you don't have the right to hurt me or my company publicly even you don't like my company or products.
I don't have any interesting to visit your website before many disgusting information be sent to my E-mail when u review this blog.
I don't have any interesting to do commercial with u or your website, never.  I just contact with a honorable fellow.
I will disappear when no more disgusting information sent to my E-mail from your website again.
 
Djjjj, are you saying that the individual who did an intelligent and lucid presentation and the video above and you, the insecure and small-minded son of a bitch, are the same person? Well, if it is so then I will invest in you a few more moments and the rest you need to get from your mental help physician. 
 
I took a few moments and searched the content of this thread, looking where I used words IDIOT and STUPID. I use IDIOT one referring to the interview was conducting with somebody from ESD and called that the interviewer, the person who asked questions, was a complete idiot. Which is a very typical in audio media. 
 
I used STUPID 3 times. First it was the description at you site that I explicitly quoted (“The directivity of horn system has turned the “sweet spot” into a “sweet zone”) and stated that it was a very stupid statement. I stay with my assessment. Unfortunately you behavior does not make me to feel that you worth to educate you on the subject, ask Bruce and he will explain to you why horn topology does not offer any advantage over widening sweet spot. The second use of the word STUPID was referred to potential customers who are willing to pay exuberant amount of money for basically a half-ass solution. Rowuk have explain it to you. You build an expensive version of Avangard with more advance parts and building techniques but you did not enumerate the fundamental topological faults that Avangard had. The 3rd time I use STUPID when I referred the notion of horizontal offset of drivers. This remains to be my position for the last 20 years if you have ears and brain and will be able to experiment with sound yourself  instead of reading the feedbacks of the industry idiots-revisers then you will be able to make you own judgment. Now, how what I enumerated here connects with your feeling that I call your company as IDIOT and STUPID. 
 
Well, let me to correct myself then and extend credit to your intuitiveness. I was mistaken before but now I need to correct myself. I do not know who you are in EDS: owner, investor, marketing person, regular worker of juts a person who clean the floors and sing glory at internet. From what you posted at this site during the last 2 days I can only concluded that YOU are an IDIOT. You behavior and you attitude does compromise in my view the EDS reputation. If you are just a little person with EDS or next to EDS (and they are usually a very nasty “defenders”) then let it be but if you the one who run the company then I feel very sorry as the ideas that were invested into EDS unfortunately end up in the hands of a person who is not very interesting and not very intelligent. In my experience boring and unintelligent people, not able to handle complexity and abstraction produce boring and unintelligent results. Feel free to quote me at you web site.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 65
Post ID: 25328
Reply to: 25326
Why do you answer a question with a question?
Djjjj,instead of reading the Macondo axioms, you ignore me and ask if I have listened to the ESD system. What difference does it make if you do not know what I am talking about? Yes, there are serious flaws in the ESD system. If this is the best that your engineers have to offer, you need better engineers. Bruce Edgar did far better by himself without those engineers.
Again, read the Macondo axioms at this website and you will know more than those engineers.
Maybe just a small hint. Our aural perception can compensate for errors in frequency response but they are helpless with phase. Phase errors cannot be corrected by the brain. With a system that takes up this much space, ignoring phase is “stupid”. Please do not insult us with any statements about phase correction in an analog crossover or DSP.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Djjjj
Posts 13
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 66
Post ID: 25329
Reply to: 25327
Congratulation! You successfully prove that you are out of control just like an IDIOT by yourself.
Poor Romy, I try keep calm & polite to tell u what I mind, and I hope you will mend. But unfortunately, I found u keep on dumping crap out of your dirty mouth, just like a BARBARIAN or a MENTAL PATIENT. Maybe you are. I suggest you visit a doctor in time.
As a normal human being, everyone know well that respect others is very important. I thought your parents must taught u a lesson abut it. If u didn't take such a lesson from your parents, u must be a SON OF BITCH flagrantly. POOR ROMY.
If you still realize u are a normal person, I should suggest u go to Church today, God will save your evil soul.
No matter who I am in ESD, just because your rudeness and insult offend me & my company deeply. 
Don't act as God to tell us how to do or what to do, your act just tell us you are a total LOSER.
Can u understand the following sentence in Chinese? Almost half Chinese people can read and write in English. Who will be the IDIOT?
自以为聪明，说人家是白痴的人，自身就是一个彻头彻尾的白痴。
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Djjjj
Posts 13
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 67
Post ID: 25330
Reply to: 25328
Thank u very much!
Thanks a lot, rowuk.
I do read the Macondo axioms again when I got your suggestion. We never think our system is a perfect one, we will and must do our best to improve our system and correct flaws.
Hope to keep in touch and get more suggestion from u.
Best regards.
03-30-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 68
Post ID: 25331
Reply to: 25329
????
 Djjjj wrote:

Can u understand the following sentence in Chinese? Almost half Chinese people can read and write in English. Who will be the IDIOT?
自以为聪明，说人家是白痴的人，自身就是一个彻头彻尾的白痴。


Jacky, what are you smoking?  Really.  It must be some great stuff but it might be time to get off the sauce because it does nothing for your demeanor.  

Chastising someone about a lack of language skills in their second language while making a whole mess of that (second) language yourself is poor form.  I've read back through this thread and can't see why you have your knickers in a twist so please clarify just what has offended you so.  All you are doing now is harming your business by shining a light on the nature of your conduct with potential customers.  Many of your potential customers will do a google search and they will see this thread and they will read it and they will realise how you behave in public and what they see will cause some of them to think twice about doing business with a petty, vindictive personality, because that is how you are coming across right now. 

My suggestion is to calm down, actually read the thread and post when you are sober and can be non-aggressive.  You will see that Romy is actually reasonably positive about your product, at least more positive than usual.
03-31-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 69
Post ID: 25332
Reply to: 25330
What can we expect from a 6 figures system?
 Djjjj wrote:
Thanks a lot, rowuk.
I do read the Macondo axioms again when I got your suggestion. We never think our system is a perfect one, we will and must do our best to improve our system and correct flaws.
Hope to keep in touch and get more suggestion from u.
Best regards.

Wait! You have created a system at this price point, ignore phase/time alignment and make an excuse that the system is never finished? Sorry, but I do not understand this type of development. Actually I do understand it as it is too easy to build speakers and THEN create a story. I understand who your customers will be.

There are serious playback problems with not aligned systems but fortunately enough deaf people with money that will never notice. I wish you good luck. Proper alignment would not even be a big problem with your modular system. The question is: why did you not hear it? Maybe you need something more revealing than Karen Carpenter? Think about this 6 figures stereo price and the developers can’t hear time alignment.

This I believe should be the number one goal for ESD. Find developers with good ears that are not blinded by technology, carbon fiber or tesla...

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
03-31-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 70
Post ID: 25333
Reply to: 25328
The Chinese 15 minuts....
 rowuk wrote:
If this is the best that your engineers have to offer, you need better engineers. Bruce Edgar did far better by himself without those engineers.
Rowuk, you raised two subjects that in my view worth to cover. 

First: Bruce Edgar did far better by himself. This is very interesting question. I would say that Bruce did not do “better” by himself and from what I have observed that was the most ambitious commercial project Bruce was involved. This what bring me to some sadness: this Chinese project might be a last public hurrah for Mr. Edgar and it is unfortunately that it is in the hand of idiots who do not care too much to advance horn topology for sound reproduction. However, saying all of it we need very clearly understand what is going on with DSP and what the relation between DSP and Bruce Edgar. DSP asked Bruce to design horns for them and pay him to license his name. They also continue interview Bruce for future marketing as there is a lot of what that guy at the video above says taken directly from Bruce playbook. So, can we consider that DSP as a company is “what Bruce did”. I very much do not think so. In my view Bruce is not a fruit of Mr. Edgar labor. He contributed some consulting time to the project but the final outcome and responsibility for the quality of product are strictly on the shoulders of Chinese guys. It is sad that it is in the hand of that racist Moron who so flamboyantly presented himself during the last few days at this site. I feel I have enough from him and he can go to die with his little pathetic secret. 

Second: Is it the best that those engineers have to offer? This is an intricate question. Over the last 20 years that I in one way or another get involved with horns I had 4 people who visited me and liked the result I go with Macondo so much that they decided to replicate it. Knowing who the people were and understanding their relationship with sensory/actions pattern I very much recommended them do not duplicate Macondo. I told them use the Macondo axioms and build you own playback if you wish to but they decided to replica exactly what they had in my room, committing the best illustration of celebrated Cargo Cult that I’ve even seen. They bought the same drivers, the same filters, the same everything, even one guy bout the same turntables. The result was a disaster in all occasions. 

You see, horns are very tricky, in a way the whole audio is, and Sound from horns are not the output from drivers and horns but rather a reflection of the system designer/owner will, consciousness, creativity and love to result. It is hard to understand to most of people how little micro-decisions among audio expressive methods in a way act like a dairy of person soil. I can give you many examples all over the audio field how creative awareness of a specific person have overwritten any rules of game with very positive result. There is a tone of opposite examples, like the 4 guys who replicated Macondo, let me give you one more. A few months back there was Josh (martinshorn), a German guy who visited me and did not like himself in my listening room. Josh told me very interesting story that I knew ending very well, understating who Josh was. Many years back Josh visited some kind of fellow who spent many years to build his own very non-orthodox playback. Josh told that it was absolutely the best sound he ever heard in his life, whatever it means. A few years later the guy who made that non-orthodox playback had a catastrophic health event and from what I understood audio stopped to be his interest. Josh then approached the system owner and bought out everything the guy did, the whole system. So, now Josh owns this system for a few years and he never was able to get from it a sonic result that even remotely resembling of what he heard in the room of the original owner/designer. This is exactly how it should be knowing who Josh was. The very same with ESD. Having in this disposal am array of good driver or good horn does not mean that they will be able to get any coherent sound out of them. So, what Herb Reichert wrote in his final Munich report was most likely accurate: $265K of drivers, $370K of horns, $200K of electronics but zero of sonic or musical merit. 

What I am sing is any technology in hands of barbarian produce barbarian results. The fact that some Chinese industrialists licensed some horns and drivers does not mean they will be able to capitalize on the driver and horns capacity. Not because they are Chinese as the idiot-Djjjj fears but because they do not look like people who care about result and sound too much. They care to create a veneer of success over this business venture. Good for them but it has nothing to do with what I am interested in audio and in horns. As far as I concern the whole business idea to produce super expensive horn is ridicules. We all know why it is done and let not make secret out of it. They make a big splash with a complex and ambition installation, with irrelevant result and then using it the splash publicity from that “big system” they push retail of crappy “boombox”. This model was run by many companies. They most likely accidental people and certainly in the world of multi-channel complex horn systems. In a few years ESD will be exporting different “items” and the noise will be gone. I would not care too much about them. Their 15 mins of fame is over, at least at my site.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 71
Post ID: 25334
Reply to: 25333
Apologies
Hi Romy. This is Jacky. My sincere apologize for the inappropriate behavior of my employee.

Please give me a chance to explain myself: I registered and posted the first few comments as Djjjj on June, then left the account to the public relation department in case someone refer to me here, as I don’t have time to check upon every new post. The guy who replied recently is a young man who just graduated. It was very rash what he did, and when he wanted to delete those posts he found out that the Djjjj account has been blocked, so he kinda freaked out and told me about the mess he made. Trust me I gave him hell of a lesson.Again, I’m very very sorry for what happened, and I sincerely apologize to you, friends that have posted, and friends that have viewed the thread. I take all the blame.

I understand that this website is for audiophiles to communicate with each other, so I’m open to criticism and would not do commercial propaganda here. Besides, please forgive us for advertising like a luxury dealer on the website, because as a new company we are still finding our way out. I’m a technical person myself and I don’t like that tone either. We are doing changes to those descriptions.

As for phase alignment and all those technical comments, I’m grateful to people who point them out. We were very inexperienced at Munich back then while the system used five way active crossover. We did many things wrong. The system has been modified for five times now. I sincerely hope you can visit us and listen to our system one day. We are going to this year’s Munich and New York show too. The company had never been founded on business purpose - after all, it would be truely idiotic to sell made-in-China Hi-end system just for business purposes, given the actual situation of the reputation of made-in-China. Yes we do recognize that. We did found the company to make the best speakers. If not, I wish my company die too.Again, my apologies.
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 72
Post ID: 25337
Reply to: 25334
Welcome.

Jacky, so, you are the person who did that presentation at the video was posted by xandcg a few days back and who presumably found the company, welcome. Is the same internet forum account used by multiple people then it is hard to differentiate when a real person posting vs. when his Sancho Panza is blabbering. I am glad that we set the record straight.

Since you are new at my site I would like to set a few records straight from my side. There is no prohibition of any kind at this site for commercial propaganda. Quite opposite, if the propaganda does advance the narrative of advanced audio and evolved music reproduction techniques then it is very welcome and to the best of my observations very well received.  The notion of “advertising like a luxury dealer on the website” is a complicated one. I do not think we in high-end audio have a language that serve noble expressive intentions and at the same time will be understood by regular consumers.  The “regular consumers” in high-end are so screwed up by the psychological warfare that audio media has been unlashing on them over years that it is very difficult to find a proper language that from one side express what you want to say and from another side will not be misunderstood by public. If you would like I can pass you a tip that I found works very well: maintain you integrity and do not write for benefits of reader but rather write for yourself. Adequate people react very well to honesty.

The phase alignment is a main bitch of multi-channel horn installation, in fact for any acoustic system, and it is a fundamental essential in my view. The multi-channel horn installation has own unit twist on the subject if you want we can talk about it, not about the benefits of phase alignment (I do not event discuss it :-) but about the methods how it could be done in context of multi-channel horn installation.

I am shocked that you system has been modified for five times. Just five times!?!!!! :-) Isn’t is ridicules how simple the multi-channel horn installation? You have horns and drivers growing out of frame, it could not be more simple then that. Still, there are so many “little things” that make you to modify those simple channels again and again to get out of acoustic system very different sound…

I have a bit different vision then you regarding an objective of a company to make “best speakers”. I do not think that aim to make best speakers is lucid. It is not different then an objective to drink more alcohol than anybody else, it has quantitative expression but not qualitative.  Best speakers is enumerable category and in my view it never work. If we use a different language then it changes the while narrative. Instead trying to make “best speakers” why not to try to make the “best unconditional solution for sound reproduction”. What I propose factors in the contingencies of a listener’s personal development and contingencies of listening environment, making the “best results” conditions-agnostic…

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 73
Post ID: 25338
Reply to: 25337
Thank you
Well that was my father. We founded the company together - he invests, I researches, mostly. Bruce Edgar and Sam Saye taught me how to design, and we built our first prototype system in California.

Think I need a bit more clarification on the five times modification I referred to. It’s not just five small changes that I was talking about but five generations kind. Every time it’s like half the work of designing an entirely new system. This was part of the reason why Herbert Reichert gave us entirely different opinion on the New York show. If that does not suffice then I’d hope people joining the upcoming Munich will post some thoughts here. I’m confident about this.

Perhaps I’m not good at the choice of words to say “best speakers”. What I meant by that was to get as real as possible, instead of certain flavors that people like. In the field of Artificial Intelligence there is this famous Turing test, where if people cannot descern an AI from a human being by its answers to different questions, then the AI is a successful strong AI. I’d like to apply the same concept to the field of audio: If a person cannot tell music played by an audio system from that of an actual band, then it’s a successful real reproduction. So yes, “best unconditional solution for sound reproduction” is a better description. Thank you.

A few other explanations to the things we are doing:

1. Why carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is far more resonance-free than glass fiber and wood. It’s also not sensitive to heat and humidity, and super stiff so that the shape of our sub-bass-horn is possible. Besides, China is the only place to do carbon fiber at this scale, at least at a reasonable price. Imagine the cost of building a 2 meters tall carbon fiber horn in Europe or the US. The horns alone can cost for a whole system.

2. Why field coil and high magnetic density. Lenz laws decides that when voice coil moves it creates back EMF which tends to draw itself back. In field coil we can balance this back EMF out by feedback circuit, making the sound more loyal to original signals. Also, field coil does not decrease as permanent magnets do, so the drivers can be used for decades without diminishing. What we have done differently to traditional field coil (like Western Electric) though, is that we developed constant current power supply instead of constant voltage, because the magentic field is decided by current not voltage. With constant voltage, when the field coil heats up, its resistance raises up and its current drops. As for high magnetic density, it provides more control to the voice coil, resulting in lower THD and better high frequency extension. It also raises the sensitivity, making more choices of class A amplifiers suitable.

3. The choice of music on show. We do play lots of European music common audiophiles listen to, but the media reporter in the video asked us to play the music he brought. There had also been reporters who asked us to play Chinese music to illustrate our background in their reports. Perhaps you can call it stereotyping.
Please correct me if I used wrong words again. Thanks.
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 74
Post ID: 25339
Reply to: 25338
Whatever....
I am sorry, I see like a few people call themselves Jacky, I have no idea who is who. The person who posted the apologies above was the father, so I presume that it was David Dai.  You are Jacky Dai, the son, and you say that you are NOT the one who wrote the foolishness before but it was done by one of your “inappropriate employee”.  So, why then you say that the choice of words about the “best speakers” was yours, despite that if in fact was your father? The most important: why your most recent post reflect the same empty marketing blabbering as it was coming from your “inappropriate employee”?  You people use fake emails for your accounts. Well, whatever…. I am a bit confused and annoyed with all of it and I have no time or interest to follow it. You keep the current site’s account and you can run your mouth about whatever you want. So, far I do not see any value to read your posts. If your father wiling to post anything then he should create his own account.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 75
Post ID: 25340
Reply to: 25339
Umm...
Umm... both “ apology” and “thank you” and all the first few responds back in June 2018 of Djjjj were written by me, Jacky, the son. None were written by David, my father, and posts from Djjjj recently were from the employee. The e-mail is not fake but very common qq mail-box in China. Well... That’s awkward.
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 76
Post ID: 25341
Reply to: 25340
Looking forward to actions and not words
It is unreasonable to expect "immediate gratification", but I will be watching to see if there will be more interest in sound than in technology coming in the near future. To be honest, the advantages of carbon fiber or high BL are FAR BELOW the correct acoustic geometry. Bruce Edgar understood geometry. If he is still consulting, I am sure that he has a top 10 list of things that he would not have done with your flagship.

Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 77
Post ID: 25342
Reply to: 25341
Geometry
I’m glad you talk about geometry, but to respond to this I have to refer to other brands. I will only talk about facts and hope it’s not offending anybody.

My basic point is: the flare rate has to be coherent right from the entrance of phase plugs. In this sense, not even Bruce and Sam did it right, I’m afraid to say. In many cases the driver and the horn are designed by different teams and the flare rate within the phase plug, the flare rate from the exit of phase plug to the exit of the driver(the throat), and the flare rate of the horn are all not the same. In another word, most of the horn units you have listened to are not following their own flare rate FROM THE START.

TAD 4001&4003 are back firing drivers, where the throat pass through the center pole, and they narrow the throat flare rate for better magnetic transmission(seems like their engineers don’t agree with you on the importance of magnetic density). That’s one thing. Second is the exit of phase plug has a sharp shift of angle entering the throat area, not a smooth connection. Third is they use rectangular horns.

Cessaro uses TAD units and changes to round horn, but 1.the problem within the driver is still 2. The entrance of Cessaro horn is bigger than the exit of TAD driver -I’m not sure how come they did not think about it.

ALE use front firing drivers, where they use bullet phase plugs. They have very high compression ratio and the sound only pass through dots at the outer ring of diaphragms, which is frequency selective at the first place. The flare rate is changing vastly at different stages too. To compensate for small throat exit they also increase the flare rate of the horn greatly for the first few inches.

Avant-garde does not use compression drivers and uses ABS plastic horns. If you doubt the importance of material please put your hands on an Avant-garde horn when it’s playing and feel the resonance.

These should cover most of the problems current horn units are encountering. We did some of the same things too, but after I become more familiar with Bruce’s and Sam’s knowledges I started to combine the design of horn and driver together. Our geometry as of today features:

1. Round horns only;2. The flare rates in the phase plug slits, throat and horn are coherent;3. The exit of phase plug connect smoothly to the throat;4. The exiting wave front of phase plug is not planar wave front but a slightly curved one which match the supposed waved front of the horn.

As for the flare rate itself, our sub-bass-horn is hyperbolic, bass-horn is exponential, mid-range is tractrix, tweeter is tractrix, and super tweeter is a new kind. Those have been set by Bruce Edgar from the beginning and has remained unchanged, so I’m not sure what are the 10 things you think Bruce wouldn’t do. Perhaps you can list them here and i’ll talk with Bruce on them. Thanks.

I know Romy has some different opinions on the flare rate Bruce has set. I’d be neutral on that, but I can only say this: at least they are true tractrix/exponential/hyperbolic all the way through. Many other impressions on different kinds of horns, I’m sorry to say, are highly influenced by the altered flare rate from the start and thus should not be qualified reference.
04-01-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 78
Post ID: 25343
Reply to: 25342
Ok, I will bite.
 jackydai wrote:
My basic point is: the flare rate has to be coherent right from the entrance of phase plugs. In this sense, not even Bruce and Sam did it right, I’m afraid to say. In many cases the driver and the horn are designed by different teams and the flare rate within the phase plug, the flare rate from the exit of phase plug to the exit of the driver(the throat), and the flare rate of the horn are all not the same. In another word, most of the horn units you have listened to are not following their own flare rate FROM THE START.
Yes, it is very accurate and whoever told you about it was correct. There is however a catch in this. The importance of proper, continuing exponential geometry from very start is critical from geometrical narrative but 1) hardly provable 2) have dubious practical implication. The “hardly provable” derives from the fact that it is VERY hard to equate a continuing exponential when pressure is coming over the phase plug, partially for short wavelength, it is all done by approximation anyhow. The dubious practical implication derives from the fact that we bring very valid reasoning regarding the “proper opening flare” but you have absolutely no auditable reference how deviations from those perfect opening impact sound.  So, even I do agree that a perfect flare rate from very beginning is a good thing to have but I refuse to accept that having that perfect flare rate (or clamming it) serves as some kind of assurance for better result. 
 jackydai wrote:
TAD 4001&4003 …. Cessaro uses TAD units and changes to round horn, …the problem within the driver is still ….
This is all fine. The TADs used in zillion other applications, can provide you subjective description how TADs sound and what specifically you do not like in TADs sound. I do not need a lecture of geometry, tell me about sound regardless of the application.
 jackydai wrote:
ALE use front firing drivers, where they use bullet phase plugs. They have very high compression ratio and the sound only pass through dots at the outer ring of diaphragms, which is frequency selective at the first place. The flare rate is changing vastly at different stages too. To compensate for small throat exit they also increase the flare rate of the horn greatly for the first few inches.
Ok, and how ALE sound to you and what in your view need to be doe to make ALE to sound better?
 jackydai wrote:
Avant-garde does not use compression drivers and uses ABS plastic horns. If you doubt the importance of material please put your hands on an Avant-garde horn when it’s playing and feel the resonance.
First of all Avant-garde does use the compression drivers and if you feel that they do not then you have very limited understanding what compression drivers are. Second, can you please describe how the resonances on the Avantgarde horns sound to you. You do not need to feel the resonance putting hands on an Avantgarde horn. I am taking you sitting in listening chair, can you blindly identify that it was playing ABS vs wooden horn in case the same driver was identically loaded. If so, can you, please give a specific sonic characteristic, preferably in context of a specific musical work?
 jackydai wrote:
I know Romy has some different opinions on the flare rate Bruce has set. I’d be neutral on that, but I can only say this: at least they are true tractrix/exponential/hyperbolic all the way through.
You should be neutral because you have no idea about my opinion on flare rates. BTW, I have no problem with your progressing rise of flare rate. We however do not build in audio flare rates, we build sound. What you do with whatever rate you use is the only thing that matter.
 jackydai wrote:
Many other impressions on different kinds of horns, I’m sorry to say, are highly influenced by the altered flare rate from the start and thus should not be qualified reference.
Oh, come on, stop sucking you own dick. Look at the images of the installation you made. Your perfect hyperbolic flare was shooting into the walls from a distance of a few inches. In that configuration your resonance frequency would be good 20-25hz off and your throat reactance will make the horn to sound as it was a sewerage pipe. You bass horn has a permeant and very harmonic resonant chamber in the curve and you come in here and sing the songs about the “true hyperbolic all the way through”. Get life, Jacky, or whatever your name is. 

PS: I would recommend you let you father read your comments before you post them here. Otherwise you will be forced to blame another “unsubordinated employee”.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
jackydai
Posts 8
Joined on 06-14-2018
Post #: 79
Post ID: 25344
Reply to: 25343
Fine
Romy, I’m disappointed to see you confront your own belief just to win a debate. It is not my intention to convince you, but if you, after all these years of research on horn flares, think that a twisted flare rate at the begining might just have some good magic on the sound, what can I say? You asked me about my views on the sound of other units, but there are two reasons I’m not going to answer you: 1.I’m not going to wrestle with you in a mudground of subjectivity, which yield no results at the end; 2.It’s not proper for me, a manufacturer, to say these. That’s why in my last post I said I only talked about facts. Besides, if you care so much about sound, why have you been making so many judgements about ESD products before actually hearing to them? As for the sub-bass-horn facing the walls, like I said we did many things wrong in Munich, and that situation was also due to the small room we got - you can’t expect the host take new comers seriously. They’ve been facing forward on all the following shows. If you really have watched the video and reviews posted you’d be able to see that. You are also implying that I’ve lied about the employee stuff. Well, I think people can easily tell it’s two persons from the level of English writing. You really are good at irritating someone by using some dirty words, but I’m fine with that. Your site your rule. I keep my manners.
04-02-2019 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 80
Post ID: 25345
Reply to: 25344
The Robert Stevenson’s syndrome?
 jackydai wrote:
Romy, I’m disappointed to see you confront your own belief just to win a debate. It is not my intention to convince you, but if you, after all these years of research on horn flares, think that a twisted flare rate at the begining might just have some good magic on the sound, what can I say?
 I do not think that there are any debates are going on here. I very much agree with you that stepped flare are not good. There are no flares out there with perfect continuing opening, it never existed and no one ever heard it. It is possible that the drivers and horns you do are closer to the non-stepped flare then others. Possible. So, what I ask you to describe the sonic merits of the better flare you suddenly become defensive and feel that I am trying to confront you. Here is a tip for you: if you are not prepared to associate you technical talk with very tangible benefits for listening experience then you are wasting you time to design audio. 
 jackydai wrote:
You asked me about my views on the sound of other units, but there are two reasons I’m not going to answer you: 1.I’m not going to wrestle with you in a mudground of subjectivity, which yield no results at the end;
I do not remember I asked you your views on the sound of other units, I think it is what you willing to say. I also do not care about “wrestling with you in a mudground of subjectivity”. I was give you an opportunity to demonstrate if you feel any comfort in the realm of subjectivity and it looks like you do not. The irony is that subjectivity is the only objective thing that exists in that whole filed. Bruce for instance can “run his mouth” about all possible technical aspect of horns design but if you dig his deeper then he is very comfortable to associate his “subjectivism” with his theoretical conclusions. The irony is that in his observation there are no subjectivism for the people who have ears and brain able to interpret what the ears heard.
 jackydai wrote:
2.It’s not proper for me, a manufacturer, to say these.
Why not. It is not appropriate for me an audio manufacturer to delegate to public hat sonic benefit his product can bring? Well, I am qithe sure you are not right about that.    
 jackydai wrote:
That’s why in my last post I said I only talked about facts.
The fact of design concepts or the fact of sonic benefits? Do you deny that your design concepts have any sonic benefits? Do you feel that the sonic benefits are not the facts?   
 jackydai wrote:
Besides, if you care so much about sound, why have you been making so many judgements about ESD products before actually hearing to them?
I do not think I did any judgments about ESD Sound. I was tailing about analyses of design decisions and typical sonic consequences, the same discussion we have all time about new installations. The hearing a playback is completely different matter and it would be completely different things in focus.   
 jackydai wrote:
As for the sub-bass-horn facing the walls, like I said we did many things wrong in Munich, and that situation was also due to the small room we got - you can’t expect the host take new comers seriously. They’ve been facing forward on all the following shows. If you really have watched the video and reviews posted you’d be able to see that.
I well understand and respect that. I also have much familiar with the subject incorporating a large horn in a room and I am in opposition to large horn to be last channel. I wrote about it in past a lot. You feel that you dealing with “small room” but in my view it is one of the fundamental flows of your system design.    
 jackydai wrote:
You are also implying that I’ve lied about the employee stuff. Well, I think people can easily tell it’s two persons from the level of English writing. You really are good at irritating someone by using some dirty words, but I’m fine with that. Your site your rule. I keep my manners.
I see the a different level of English writing but I also see the same irritated soil by some imaginary dirty words. Make up you choses, Dr Jekyll and Hyde

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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