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05-15-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 21
Post ID: 24853
Reply to: 24852
Sources?
Josh, what were the sources for the various exhibitions?  Last year here, there was very little of worth that was amplified as examples, so there were just big, elaborate, expensive systems making loud sounds,  along with mostly "price point" systems, to be sure everyone can afford something.  One thing I can remember is that the overall quality of "ambiance" was like an air freshener vs. a pine forest, and I do associate this problem with streaming music, especially, beyond the usual problems with the gear.  Of course, they are not required to use streaming sources, and that should tell us something about their standards and objectives for their gear, what is their level of musical and playback sophistication, to start with.



Paul S
05-15-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 22
Post ID: 24854
Reply to: 24852
Please, read my site.
 martinshorn wrote:
The Vox Olympian… there it was obvious that the folded horns have a complete disability to collaborate with any room imperfections. It was beyond boomy.
Josh, I need to disappoint you. The folding horns themselves as a topology has nothing to do with room imperfections. It is also not wise to make a judgment about products, and particularly as complex and multi-way acoustic system, based upon a specific negative experience during trade show. I have written about it many times. If you experienced something positive then it might be meaningful. If you experienced something negative then it is irrelevant, unless you can correctly attributes this negative to right causality. So, far I do not see that you are able to. The commentaries about “boominess” and “stage depth” I am sorry to admit it do very little to me.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-16-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 23
Post ID: 24856
Reply to: 24854
Ah...
Well. That dude down my street in the esoteric shop would say "i feel negative vibration is in the air here"...
Though "only positive counts" may sound very positive in the first place, it rather seems to be used for discrediting majority of opinions.
So, while the glass seems to be always half empty here, and stomach feelings and youtube videos seem to overrule live-experiences, i feel tired bout defending my statements.   

However, as it occurs to me majority of non-pro audio dudes love to make a name of emselvs by rating critical bout famous things. As if they were someone, judging and gaining audience for their oppinions, being heard, feeling good about it. So in a way its a good thing to do, putting a break on peoples review culture of "oh that was so crappy"...   

On the other hand, my positive statements before were "not bought" either. So, which way ? Smile
 

Btw. Folded horns may not be per se a topology that interact worse with the room than others. It was also not written like that. Just like "the yellow cake isnt tasty -> hey asshole tongs cant perceive color!" ... (????)
Nevertheless, its my observation that folded horns in 9 of 10 cases suffer more from the room integration than straight ones. Just like ports suffer more than closed, or dipole. Non can be proven by measures nor logic, but my headacho-meter still responds...   
 
cheers
Josh
05-18-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 24
Post ID: 24868
Reply to: 24831
Herb Reichert about the ESD

https://www.stereophile.com/content/herbs-final-munich-report

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-18-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 25
Post ID: 24869
Reply to: 24868
Failed installation
Interesting. Also to be put in relation to the other things reported there. 
I came Saturday Sunday to ESD. Sunday, they welcomed me  
Dai:
"hey you have been here before" ....  

me:
"yes yes i need to see if what i heard yesterday was really that good because sometimes, first impressions can fool you"
(thinking I fooled myself enough years before with pursuing to copy technology from one-time experiences that were not good enough the second time)

Dai:
"yes in fact its even better now, we have fine tuned the crossover and made room voicing"

me:
"you dont do that before the exhibition starts? Smile when did you arrive? Monday?"
(you have to know that only Fri,Sat,Sun is private / public. Thursday (1st day) is closed / open for professional journalism only)

Dai:
"yes we arrived even earlier for that purpose. But the speakers arrived to late. The Chinese courier failed to be in time. We could not setup anything, but just put things here and plug them in. First day we even started without the woofer horn. Then just in the evening when the exhibition was closed we have time for fintune. I think only today (sunday) it actually sounds good. But what can you do"  

So thinking stereophile was there thursday... I dont want to sound like a defender making excuse for everything, but make up your own judgement, this above, i swear, was just a quote 1:1. 

Now, I did listen to the Stein couple of times intense as well. The integration of dipole subs into room acoustics is great. The overall system was good. And the tweeter was screaming my ears off. Same i heard from friends (who also listen DSP linearized @home and know what is tonal balance). That buddy also came to ESD on friday and did not like them at all. Many complained in fact. Others, like Hifipig and Avantgarde team themselves (yes) were there sunday and loved ESD. So, no common agreement.
 
I think we are all humans who react to stress, run around, have better worse room setups. And we all need to focus more on judging fair.
For me this means, i dont go for 1 day rushing through, 10 minutes everywhere.
I go 3 days. I go slow. I have a coffee break every 2 hours. I walk slow. I listen long and close my eyes.
In the morning i put my earplugs, in the hotel, and take them off when the music plays and i sit down. To have silence from all the humble around.
Then, if something is unexpectedly bad or good, i go next day again. And even third day if im still surprised.
I walk through the room and accommodate to the room acoustics (clap, clear throat...)
Check different seats, stand up, listen from end of the room, etc...
Back in bed at night between those days, i recalibrate for the next day on my stax reference headphone, playing the typical songs of the day i just heard. 

Its difficult to judge on exhibitions, but you can make up your strategy to do way better.
Biggest obstracle to me remains the surrounding noise.
05-18-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 26
Post ID: 24870
Reply to: 24869
Some afterthoughts about the ESD Acoustic horn speakers.
Well, I do not like the ESD debut. It was not well though and not well executed. The sound that they demonstrated is kind of less relevant. Sound look like was nothing interesting to say the last, sorry it is too obvious at the video clip above in comparing to the sound of other installations. My apologies with Josh that I did not share his enthusiasm. 
 
I feel I need to say something about the overall ESD debut. For a person well oriented in horn universe there is a lot to remark.
There are 3 very positive aspects in the ESD debut. 
 
1) A progressively altering the horn’s slope with respect to the channel frequency. I very welcome to this idea and feel that it is how it should be.


2) A new line of compression drivers. It looks like a lot of work wen to it and it would be very interesting to hear more about it.


3) A commercial 5ch multi-amping application. It is not perfect and it come with active not passive crossover and presumably bad quality but it is to the best of my knowledge first in recent commercial hi-fi. 
 
Of because there are many unfortunate aspects in ESD debut. 
 
1) Horns pricing. The set of the carbon-fiber horns cost over $370,000 according to Herb Reichert. It is not expensive, it is monumentally stupid, regardless of the horns design. The mold hors are cheap to make if you have already tooling and regardless of the “kinky” cavities that ESD filed with Taaffeite the cost of the horn should be $3-$4K. What Avantgard was first introduced 18 years back they sell the horn $500-$800 each. And you know what? They sold zillion of the speaker around the world. I do want to see a fool who would pay $370K for the horns. I can easy proof that those hoe cost 100 time less and I can official challenge the ESD. Of you take the playback the was presented in Munich and substitute the carbon-fiber horns with paper-mache analog then I assure you that the overall sound of the system will not be changing. So, it would be a legitimate question: what $370K is for?  
 
2) The exponential-centric profile. I understand that it is faster opening but here is what I disagree with Bruce. I have so many arguments for my opposition and I think that in private conversation Bruce would agree with my arguments. Why he went for exponential-centric profile is beyond my understanding. I think he wanted to provide the Chinese folks with more bottom octave EQ but he well knows the consequences of it. Anyhow, I am a bit puzzled with it.  
 
3) A price of compression drivers. The $265K a set. Well, it is kind of stiff, cindering that electromagnets should be less expensive then perm magnets drivers. Price-vise the ESD put itself above GOTO, ALE, GIP, Wolf von Langa, Cogent and the rest of them. Kind of unfortunate and not very smart in my view.
 
4) Big close-bottom horn must not be the last LF devise in a playback. I wrote about it sirloin times. Asking the money as they ask and offering a servilely compromised by topology system is not intelligent in my view.
 
5) The electromagnets do not work out with horns and if they do then the drivers need to be closed much more conservative then perm magnets. The electromagnets tend to give much more honk then they should and in case of ESD the combination of electromagnets, exponential profile and overdriving the horns with LF is pure recipe for disaster. From what is heard at the video above is the evidence that the disaster was filly harvested.
   
I do think that ESD need to work on the playback quite more. I disagree with Mr. Reichert that “a hornspeaker of this dimension needs the listener to be at least four or five meters from the mouth of the largest horn” Macondo is the same dimension, probably larger and it does very fine from 3 meters or even 2.5 meters from the mouth of the largest horn. I like when the audio professionals express a “reference” opinion without having any familiarity on the subject. The ESD need to change the frame and to bring themselves to Macondo topology, to time-align the drivers, to implement sensible fixed crossovers and introduce a complimentary LF channel. Then they need to have a demo room in Europe or US with permanent properly calibrate and well performing installation, while dropping the price dramatically. If cost has any equivalent to sound quality then looking at the engineering investment ESD made in the design of this playback I value the cost of the whole ESD room not more then $40K. At the today world the Avantgard Trio with their plastic horns, cheap ceramic ferrofluid -damped compression drivers, passive filtration and price tag of I believe $70K is much more mature acoustic system, unfortunately. 
 
Does ESD has a prospective?  Unquestionably. Let see where they will navigate themselves.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-18-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 27
Post ID: 24873
Reply to: 24869
Saturday?
 martinshorn wrote:


So thinking stereophile was there thursday... 


Reichert mentions Saturday twice in the article.  Not that is really matters.  He did not like them, the youtube video sounds horrible but you heard something interesting and for me that is hardly a conundrum or something to stress about.

I think that Romy does make some valid points though.  Like he, I am struggling to understand the how ESD expects to make market inroads with a product that costs US$835,000 but looks half-arsed and half finished.  Those big bass horns are never going to look good in any room and carbon fibre is pretty much the last finish I would opt for on any luxury item...it is not nice!  The horn stack seems uninspired and very Cessaro-like and ho-hum for something that costs half a million clams...crikeys, where is the imagination?  

Please do not think that I have something against big and heavy speakers, my system weighs 2 tonne and I have made little effort to make things lightweight or even particularly small, but at least I have used some imagination in designing and putting the system together whether people like it or not.  The ESD stuff seems quite slapstick, sort of like it is a first draft of something that might need another two or three big revisions.  The room limitations that the big bass horn introduces means that they will have to be stuck in the corners and then there is the carbon fibre thing again...what room is that going to look ok in?  How do you decorate with carbon fibre?  In Kodomo's thread Romy used the words "typical audio torture chamber" and I think that there is no way these speakers can be placed in anything but a room that is not nice to be in.

Then there is the competition.  There are plenty of big horn speakers that can look really nice in a room and are a fraction of the price:  Tune Audio and Avantguarde come to mind or some of the WE replicas.  These are luxury items that first and foremost need to fit into a luxury environment and carbon-fibre and big stacks of silver boxes just do not cut it...not even in the same league.  That's three times that I have mentioned carbon-fibre; four now; what were they thinking?  Or am I just a little bit too sensitive?

Of course, all of this is quite apart from the sound of the things.  They may be able to be made to sound transcendent given time, and even if they do manage to get over the limitations of the bass-horns, time-alignment and who knows what else I can't see someone paying a tremendous sum to put something into their room that will make the room into something not pleasant to be in.             
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 28
Post ID: 24874
Reply to: 24873
Marketing.
All their marketing is wrong in several ways. Some of them:


1 - the website (beyond the fact they are using some BS template you can buy for a few bulks, and all them them are buggy, slow and insecure) have a page to make an appointment to their showroom but there is no address. On the website have two possible address one in California and another in China.

http://www.esdacoustics.com/index.php/about/showroom.html


2 - the price. The price is something that should be strategic thought when dealing on luxury market. One time you set it you cannot make it go down just up, or all your business will lose value and respect from the clients. Have you ever seen Rolls-Royce lowering their prices? With the price they are advertising they should (at very minimum) find a way to get the best room of the show, and not a pocket room.

3 - When someone want something made of carbon fiber (and it is not for pure industrial/commercial usage), 99% of the time they want carbon fiber that looks like carbon fiber, with those classic stripes, and not something that look like cheap industrial plastic/ribbon.


Taste is personal thing, but carbon fiber can integrate very well if done properly almost anywhere.  Look for some Bentley Mulsanne (or any) with carbon fiber finishing in its interior. EX. And you still have colored carbon fiber to make the things even be.


But the most funny thing about all of that is the price. Chinese are well know to be cheap, including the rich ones when dealing on the luxury market. They always want to pay little to nothing for everything. The Swiss banks (for instance) in Singapore know them very well. They want the bank to make a lot of money for them (talking about investment banks) and pay zero interest to the bank, more like they require it.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008
Post #: 29
Post ID: 24878
Reply to: 24874
Decoration
The worst of it is there is no logic in using carbon fibre. They could have made a case for ekoa, but that would require some imagination. 
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 30
Post ID: 24879
Reply to: 24878
Boy Toy
What isn't made of carbon fiber these days?



Paul S
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 31
Post ID: 24880
Reply to: 24870
The wet dream of audio and ESD
I would like to share more of my troughs about the ESD acoustic. That are not truly the troughs about the company but rather the troughs that come to mind inspired by the company come to existence. 
 
I do feel that it is an ultimate we dream of ether audio consumers or audio makers to have a truly great performing let say 40Hz midbass horn available. There are none of them available, I mean great performing and whatever is available is garbage. I do not insist that great 40Hz might be given only by midbass horn, the midbass direct radiators can do fine, particularly if some high-end approaches are used. Still, if you your mind operates under a reasonable delusion that midbass horn is a key to everything then do want to write a check and to have a fully operational 40Hz midbass horn siting in your listening room. Most sensible audio people do understand that it never happens but it is a wet dream, do not ruin anybody’s fantasy. 
 
Here is where ESD come to the play. They sell their merchandises as individual parts, thus targeting the DIYers and their midbass horn might be a solution. I less care about the rest of their installation as with the seriousness they approach the subject and the price they tag their solutions they effectively killed own company prospects. Still, I would like to salvage for ESD their midbass horn and the only reason is because they own the whole the full stack of audio elements necessary for proper midbass horn functioning: amplifier, crossover, driver and horn. As a stand-alone solution, properly priced and properly implemented it might be a very interesting product.  
 
I less care about the ESD prospects to make money and my concern is to progress and keep the torch for the idea of horn-loaded playback applications. The ESD folks have already declared themselves as fools investing into the idea that they can make money on audio. If intend of audio they invers own carbon-fiber manufacturing efforts into push up bras or sexy spatula kits then it would be way more profitable direction for them. They were fools, no different then you and me, they decided to fish in murky water audio, good lick with that. Well, probably I have to exclude myself from the group identity of fools and I do not do any audio for profit. But it is not the point. The point is that ESD own full stack for 40Hz midbass horn and they willing to do it commentary and a complete solution. Good for them, let play alone.  
 
Let to dissect what they offer and what they should offer (in my opinion) to be considered “interesting”.  
 
I do not know anything about their compression driver. I do know that it hardly needs a lot of magnetic force. Probably it is 4-5” of exit and probably it has relatedly low suspension and low resonance. I would like to have 5 things variable for this driver/horn
 
1)      Voltage I drive across the electromagnet, I do not share their objective to go for high flux. 
 
2)      Ability to change the back chamber damping by adjusting a release valve or use the acoustic semi-transparent felt gaskets. Would use to tune the Fs of the driver, load to a given room to the horn’s lower passing frequency.  
 
3)      Ability to apply negative voltage or positive current feedback to the power amp, setting precise the amp output impedance. Will be using the cancel out suspension influence.
   
4)      An adjustable crossover with 1 or 2 order high-pass and 1-4 order low pass.  
 
5)      To have the interchangeable middle section of midbass horn able to accommodate 0 degree and 45 degree angle.  
 
I think this set of tools would make it an interesting midbass horn package. It would be increasable interesting to play with it. I do feel that it is would be very possible that the field-coli driver would not be the essentials part of the package and some kind of low cost ceramic magnet driver might be used  since they are in SS amplification realm. OK, now the punch line of the whole thinking. Buckle up… What I would like to have in the end of it would be the ESD’s knowhow to optimize the midbass horn operation in a “random”. Pretend you have a ship-drop the midbass horn, you play ESD’s test CD, put the calibration microphone at your listening position and the ESD amps know how to set all parameters of the ESD’s midbass full stack. It is not about the QEing the room but rather to setting up a proper bass texture, that no one know how to do; and if they do then no one have proper tools; and if they have proper tools then they spend 20 years of own life to learn how to do it…. If ESD can deliver it in one package then it would be great, I feel.

Rgs, Romy The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-19-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 32
Post ID: 24881
Reply to: 24880
I give up.
I already give up of commercial available audio products since a few years ago. I come with the conclusion I will never find a nearly ideal solution readily available anywhere. Tune Audio Anima is the only horn product what probably would fulfill my interests as-is, but just when the available space is limited and/or the system is secondary.

These days I still have an eye on the audio market just to see if someone come out with supposed better drivers than GOTO/ALE, or if I find someone who I feel is better to execute what I want than my current selection of 'professionals'. But this time is also ending because I glimpsing me ordering all the things still this year.

Cheers!


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
05-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 33
Post ID: 24882
Reply to: 24880
Doing the math
I digged a bit into the doubt of the sub doing 17Hz.
Im using AJhorn, which has proven to be an extremely reliable forcaster in many many cases.
Now, i put all information available from Dai + website in the app. It gives me the following result:
 
       
 
Now what i dont have of course, is majority of TSP.
Well however i can estimate the rough range within + - around something that makes sense.
So the result above will not be out of space.
Though, i played a bit with the values (TS) to see what influences a lot.  

  My conclusions:   - the fs is always introducing a knee of 2nd order hipass, regardless of anything else, in case of this horn you see its
- the flux will only lower Qm and Qe, which is only boosting the sensitivity -> more flux = more output, less flux = less output -> linear behavior
- looking at the graph obviously, the horn doesnt work any better than a k-horn apart from better low-mids due to less foldings
- i also played with different flares and im surprised, Edgar is right, the hyperbolic shape is resistive canceling out the mouth reflection at 50Hz, no other shape can do that well in this configuration
05-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 34
Post ID: 24883
Reply to: 24882
Lower flux simulation
Now the same graph black...        
   
     
     
  Equivalent to lower flux, i increased the Qe from 0.15 to 0.35 and the Qm from 3 to 7. Result in red curve. Only worse, in all aspects. Edgar Bruce's theory that TSP does not matter and flux cant be high enough seems to remain true here, as the horn (like Edgar sais) mass load outrules the drivers (electrical relative) suspension (to some extend).                
   

The green curve shows same driver as red but with 40 liter volume on the back (before was 10 liter). That should give idea about back ventilation, lower fs, softening suspension etc. the lowend is slightly better, though actively controlled by filters it wont make a difference at the end (apart from some milivolts less input below 40 cycles).             
 

  This reminds me on some white papers from JBL saying (like everyone but i expect JBL to have it tested & proven) the backchamber of driver should always be as small as possible. Also Edgar wrote once smaller back chamber gives deeper base. Which sounds rather like an perceived difference. In fact, smaller backchamber as you see increases fs and Qt. Which means u gain 1 dB in upper bass (explains Edgars deeper bass perception) but you loose many more in the deep low end. So to me looks like the bigger the rearchamber the better.
05-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 35
Post ID: 24884
Reply to: 24883
Oh, God, please not again.
Josh, you are committing the same mistake as many people before you. I always fought with this way of thinking at my site to the point that I encourage people to take this type thinking somewhere else and do not expose it at my site, giving by it some publicity. I do not want to give at my site a publicity to fundamental erroneous ideas. The mistakes you do, very much the same that infested the DIYAudio.com site and many other communities: you guys operate under pretense that simple horn circulation algorithms like Hosnres, AJhorn and many others or T&S characteristics of drivers give you any idea how a loading horn will be sounding. That is rubbish and I did educate the horn people about it many many times. Sorry to say it but everything that you wrote in your two pasts above has absolutely no sense. Please do not take it personally but the thinking above and the rational you use for your thinking has absolutely nothing to do with reality of sounds horns makes. If you care about propagation of atmospheric pressure in space then deal with pressure predictors but it has absolutely nothing to do with Sound.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 36
Post ID: 24885
Reply to: 24884
Ah ah, pressure not sound !
Sorry Romy, dont say i said how it sounds. I did not. In fact i was just about to take back the statement of not doing better than a K-horn.  

Let me put it straight. Above shows what is possible (more or less) in terms of pressure. It shows the horn will not provide pressure below 50 cycles. And this is likely to be true. It will not magically appear out of nowhere. This does not exclude possibility that in some rooms due to modes it might sound full till 40 Hz. But 17 never ever.  
 
  Above also shows an extraordinary sensitivity from one small single 10" radiator. So in fact, i think it easily compeeds with the k-horn in terms of "loudness" (only the boom, nothing else im refering here to!!!). Thats great and shows that the horn itself is more efficient. Which comes along with all advantages and disadvantages of using a smaller lighter driver without (the usual) sensitivity loss. thats good.    

    What you say however is important. Lot of people try to make horns using only the simulator, and later is sounds dreadful. The "loudness over frequency" might still correlate (with slight deviation) to the simulation. And thats all the simulator promised Smile There is no scale of quality or pleasure. Neither did i say that.    

Doing many many many horns... I think i see some correlations of what AJhorn shows and when a system sounds good. It might not be where you expect it. I found it in the impedance. Both pressure and electrical. When you have a very flat linear bump-free impedance, its correlating with avoidance of resonance. The pre-chamber, the throat, the flare, the mouth, the surrounding, even the phaseplug etc etc etc can have a mass-reactance and resonance. These things should be avoided. So, instead of fishing 100% in the dark, lot of try&error, you can at least clear out lot of rubish with AJhorn, striving for good pressure & electrical impedance, and 2-3 out of 10 mockups you trash before building. Very nice.      
I also see most (8 of 10) people do not fill out the forms properly. Everyone disregards cone to throat distance, actual compression on the phaseplug, plug flare, corner efficiency (acoustic transparent floor or wall) etc just to name a few.    

  So shit in, shit out. Most cases.   

Best you can input -> get a rough idea of whats possible    

My view...
cheers
Josh
05-20-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 37
Post ID: 24887
Reply to: 24885
Corner loading?
 martinshorn wrote:
Above shows what is possible (more or less) in terms of pressure. It shows the horn will not provide pressure below 50 cycles. And this is likely to be true. It will not magically appear out of nowhere. This does not exclude possibility that in some rooms due to modes it might sound full till 40 Hz. But 17 never ever.  


Hey Josh, what space have you simulated this horn radiating into?  I ask because they are obviously designed to be fired into corners and the walls/ceiling used to further load the driver and extend the horn: another fold if you like.  You may find that a 20Hz quarter mouth horn such as this one may get lower than 50Hz when it is loaded into pi/2 space.
05-21-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
martinshorn
Germany
Posts 114
Joined on 04-14-2017
Post #: 38
Post ID: 24888
Reply to: 24887
Quarter space
Hi Anthony,  

i took ground + 1 wall. Which gives quarter space. Some may say distance to second wall is way below quarter lambda, so you could even take octa-space. But my K-horn experiences (which is 8th sp. calc) goes along with Bruce Edgars oppinion. 8th just doesnt work out. He blames the buildings, i tend to agree.
  I know one guy who estimates about 0.707 of energy bouncing back from an average thin brickwall / wood floor. That can also xplain a lot and move theory and reality much closer together.
 
cheers
Josh
06-09-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
xandcg


Rio de Janeiro, BR.
Posts 218
Joined on 09-07-2014
Post #: 39
Post ID: 24926
Reply to: 24888
Custom specifications.
I was thinking ESD drivers may have a true advantage over ALE/GOTO/Others (apparently they actually know how their drivers work) if that allow to someone design the horn exactly the way he/she want, and later order the driver with custom specs to match the horn.


Think for yourself, do not be sheep.
06-10-2018 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 40
Post ID: 24927
Reply to: 24926
Sorry, this was juts a fantasy on your part.
 xandcg wrote:
I was thinking ESD drivers may have a true advantage over ALE/GOTO/Others (apparently they actually know how their drivers work) if that allow to someone design the horn exactly the way he/she want, and later order the driver with custom specs to match the horn.

I think it is a fallacy to think this way. There is absolutely no mystery to “design” a horn to meet a compression driver specifications, you do not need to know “how drivers work”. The reversed scenario is more complicated. Sorry, but I do not believe in custom specs compression drivers. Even if the money is not object and the makers have knowhow and desire to meet a custom specification then I do not feel that makers can meet any lucid truly custom specification. The makers do have a very limited set of criteria that they can manipulate and the resulting drivers sound as they sounds. That is it. If you need more second harmonics in upper range, more warmth at 300-600Hz, drop “color temperate” all over lower region, Ormandy/Philadelphia -like sound in midrange or more emphasized resonance at second high-pass octave then no makes would be able to accommodate it. They can theoretically tweak a sustention to give you another half octave at the bottom or change geometry of the phase plug to give you something at the tope but it will change the whole driver sound and there is absolutely no one who can surgically inflict to a compression driver any custom sound.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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