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  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  206550  05-20-2011
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  151165  10-29-2005
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08-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012
Post #: 41
Post ID: 21905
Reply to: 21903
Don't forget the phantom image!
fiogf49gjkf0d
For horns mounted on or near the floor, we have a phantom image below the floor plane. In theory, this means we could make that horn a half circle or similar, with a tremendous advantage in real estate. The theoretical advantages of reduced diffraction at the edge of a Le'Cleach profile, are exactly that. The effects may not even be audible depending on driver, crossover, horn frequency, proximity to a room surface.

Whether a 2 meter length horn can be integrated is a big subject for a big room. I don't think that anyone or any software can predict this.


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
08-20-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 42
Post ID: 21906
Reply to: 21904
"curl" or not ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

EDIT:  Not sure we are on the same page regarding frequency range for this horn

Well, I don't have any other options.My 42Hz upper bass horn has flat frequency response in 70-300Hz range and -5db in 60-400Hz, so I need next channel to work in full from 400Hz at least (from 300hz better!).I was reading Jessie's project thread and see that his 40hz horn is separated from the frame, but I want to stay time-aligned and I have no place on the frame for another 1x1m horn.That means I need to choose from:
1. 200hz horn without "curl"
2. 250hz with "curl"
Any suggestions ?
08-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 43
Post ID: 21907
Reply to: 21906
Which big horn?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:

EDIT:  Not sure we are on the same page regarding frequency range for this horn

Well, I don't have any other options.My 42Hz upper bass horn has flat frequency response in 70-300Hz range and -5db in 60-400Hz, so I need next channel to work in full from 400Hz at least (from 300hz better!).I was reading Jessie's project thread and see that his 40hz horn is separated from the frame, but I want to stay time-aligned and I have no place on the frame for another 1x1m horn.That means I need to choose from:
1. 200hz horn without "curl"
2. 250hz with "curl"
Any suggestions ?


The large 42Hz horn would probably want to be crossed over from 160Hz-200Hz at the most which would leave the top octave of the horns range for attenuation.  So what you really need is a horn from about 100Hz to go above it...not going to happen.  The thing about the 42Hz horn is that you can pretty much put it anywhere in the room because the frequencies that it covers do little for imaging or soundstaging.  Of course you can keep them time-aligned if you are persistent like Romy with them in the ceiling behind the listening chair.  Personally I would vertically align the channels that are going to provide imaging and figure out how to do below 100Hz from somewhere else in the room.

Regarding the "curl", I personally would not bother...they take up far to much real estate.
08-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 44
Post ID: 21908
Reply to: 21906
You could make a monster...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:

EDIT:  Not sure we are on the same page regarding frequency range for this horn

Well, I don't have any other options.My 42Hz upper bass horn has flat frequency response in 70-300Hz range and -5db in 60-400Hz, so I need next channel to work in full from 400Hz at least (from 300hz better!).I was reading Jessie's project thread and see that his 40hz horn is separated from the frame, but I want to stay time-aligned and I have no place on the frame for another 1x1m horn.That means I need to choose from:
1. 200hz horn without "curl"
2. 250hz with "curl"
Any suggestions ?


If you were to keep two large 1m diameter horns in a stack, then perhaps one on top and the bigger one on the bottom with the other channels in between.  You would need a high ceiling...suddenly the horn stack is 3m tall!!
08-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 45
Post ID: 21909
Reply to: 21907
6th channel in case
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

The large 42Hz horn would probably want to be crossed over from 160Hz-200Hz at the most which would leave the top octave of the horns range for attenuation.  So what you really need is a horn from about 100Hz to go above it...not going to happen.  The thing about the 42Hz horn is that you can pretty much put it anywhere in the room because the frequencies that it covers do little for imaging or soundstaging.  Of course you can keep them time-aligned if you are persistent like Romy with them in the ceiling behind the listening chair.  Personally I would vertically align the channels that are going to provide imaging and figure out how to do below 100Hz from somewhere else in the room.

Regarding the "curl", I personally would not bother...they take up far to much real estate.
Thank you, Anthony, I'll follow your suggestion.I don't have 3m ceiling, but I have space in the back.So, I'll put tapped horn and 2m 42hz horn in the back and use space on frame for huge la-horn SmileI like this idea, because in this case I have extra space for 6th channel in case.
08-21-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,161
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 46
Post ID: 21910
Reply to: 21907
It is very wrong.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
 The thing about the 42Hz horn is that you can pretty much put it anywhere in the room because the frequencies that it covers do little for imaging or soundstaging.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-22-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Gargoyle
Posts 69
Joined on 02-01-2015
Post #: 47
Post ID: 21911
Reply to: 21910
I agree
fiogf49gjkf0d
Stereo bass is where it's at.
08-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 48
Post ID: 21912
Reply to: 21911
300 hz
fiogf49gjkf0d
If you have a huge 2 meter long horn and like what it does from 70hz to 300 hz that is a very difficult range and really simplifies (ja) the rest of your channels.
Having a horn to play from 300-400 hz is not a big problem or a big horn, a handful of drivers can do 300 hz you just have to find one with good tone. but you will need and extra midrange driver on top of that one.
That one could be the fundamentals channel as Romy calls it. You will have to play with your volumes.

If you really want the best as you state, go for Wood horns, there is a big difference.

I like taped Horn bass, be careful of cabinet vibrations messing the sound, brace and use thick Wood.
08-23-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 49
Post ID: 21913
Reply to: 21912
Which driver for 300hz ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Thank you, Jorge, for comment. I'm definitely going for wood horns. For my ear it has no coloration in compare with other material. Only for experiments I'm using what is available ready.
Regarding driver for 300Hz, which one will you suggest to try ?This week I'm going to decide if I go for WE555 clone which is definitely can do 300hz.Another option I see is JBL 2490, but looks like it is hard to find.All other JBL's suggested cross over - 500hz.For Vitavox S2 Mike also suggests 500hz.I tried GPA288 and it also better to have higher than 600hz.What other driver can go down to 300hz ?
08-24-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 50
Post ID: 21914
Reply to: 21913
Low pass and wattage
fiogf49gjkf0d
For home use almost any driver will go lower without burning up.
If you want specs, BMS and B&C will give you the right specs.
And then there is the tone...
I had 2490 play down to 200 hz in a 100 hz horn, of course they would only go up to 1 kHz or so like that.
But the lower registers lacked impact and tone. Female voices in that range were amazing.
I would just make a 2" 300hz horn and play around with drivers.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 51
Post ID: 21917
Reply to: 21914
GPA 288 + JBL 2453
fiogf49gjkf0d
Today LeCleach 550hz arrived together with another round horn - Jabo KH-53 (350hz).I've measured 3 drivers in 550hz horn: GPA 288, JBL 2453 and JBL D2430K D2.JBL 2453 really impressed me. This is definitely best driver I ever had!Tone is perfect and it is linear from 1200hz to 14khz!For the lower mid I've tried 288 in 350hz horn and got good curve from 500hz.So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.I don't think that 288 can do it. May be I need to try 2490, but can't find it.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 52
Post ID: 21918
Reply to: 21917
One from left of field...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 53
Post ID: 21919
Reply to: 21917
Frequnecy response
fiogf49gjkf0d
Want to share what I got with 1st order.
fr.png

Next step is to build 240Hz LeCleach and try JBL 2490 in it to get blue line down to 300-400.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 54
Post ID: 21920
Reply to: 21918
8" up to 2kHz ?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.

8" diaphragm....isn't it too big and heavy ?And with 1st order I'm not sure...I'll try JBL 2190!This is the only modern driver which can do it.I've decided not to go for clones of old design.If not work properly, then I introduce another channel for 250-500 range...may be based on JBL 2169H!Another option is to extend Vitavox in 42Hz horn to 500Hz.I don't know what is better.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 55
Post ID: 21921
Reply to: 21920
Not your normal cone driver
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:
 Murataltuev wrote:

So, the question is still opened: how to get 300-400hz.

Perhaps give the JBL 2169H a try.  It is supposedly very good from 300Hz to 2.2kHz, but I have never tried it.  Use it in a sub 200Hz tractrix horn with a 4" throat and sensitivity should be around 108dB/w/m.  It is an 8" cone compression driver.

8" diaphragm....isn't it too big and heavy ?And with 1st order I'm not sure...I'll try JBL 2190!This is the only modern driver which can do it.I've decided not to go for clones of old design.If not work properly, then I introduce another channel for 250-500 range...may be based on JBL 2169H!


It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
08-26-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 56
Post ID: 21922
Reply to: 21921
Supravox vs JBL 2169H
fiogf49gjkf0d
 anthony wrote:

It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
I respect others experience, but still not sure that I want to hear 8" diaphragm in 500+ range.And with 1st order crossover I'll have it.May be I'm wrong, but really...27gramm is too much. My 12" Supravox in 42Hz horn is 18g.And I also made it in closed back-chamber like compression driver.
08-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
anthony
Posts 338
Joined on 08-18-2014
Post #: 57
Post ID: 21923
Reply to: 21922
You don't have to go there...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Murataltuev wrote:
 anthony wrote:

It is a compression driver with an 8" cone.  If you want authority at 300Hz you will need diaphragm area.  The Fane Studio 8M that Romy and plenty of others use for 100Hz up to 1kHz is an 8" cone driver on a 4" throat with a closed back-chamber to make it into a compression driver, which effectively is the topology of the 2169H.
I respect others experience, but still not sure that I want to hear 8" diaphragm in 500+ range.And with 1st order crossover I'll have it.May be I'm wrong, but really...27gramm is too much. My 12" Supravox in 42Hz horn is 18g.And I also made it in closed back-chamber like compression driver.

I understand that.  You were after drivers that can do 300Hz up...well according to some the 2169H is a good one (I've not heard it).  It might bridge the gap between your 42Hz horn and your midrange.
08-27-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Jorge
Austin TX
Posts 141
Joined on 10-17-2010
Post #: 58
Post ID: 21924
Reply to: 21923
Throat reactance
fiogf49gjkf0d
From what I gather the JBL 2169 driver is an 8" cone speaker with a sealed back chamber. If this is so it was designed for a specific horn. It shall be used in that horn or a very similar one. The back chamber should be tuned/designed for the horn it will be working on.
08-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
kodomo
Posts 69
Joined on 06-20-2015
Post #: 59
Post ID: 21926
Reply to: 21922
Supravox modified
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have also designed my bass horn to operate between 160hz and 600hz and it will use a supravox 285-2000. It is a 110hz cutoff tractrix horn. However I found out that, there is a modified version of this driver that suits my purposes better. It is by German Hornfabrik and they have removed the phase plug among other things as the driver does not need to operate in higher registers. This is what I am in the process of ordering today Smile 

Here is what Helmut from hornfabrik has written to me;
"The 285-2000 HF (= Hornfabrik) is characterized by no phase plug and some other features. This speaker has a higher resonance frequency and is usable from 100 to 1000 Hz. If horn-loaded from 150 - 600 a simple 6dB-filter will do (2,2  mH )and a soft RC-filter at 2 kHz. That will do. A very fine, sonor sound with wonderful mids. We use this speaker in our best horn-systems from 150 - 500 Hz."
08-28-2015 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Murataltuev


Moscow
Posts 99
Joined on 05-21-2010
Post #: 60
Post ID: 21928
Reply to: 21926
Supravox 285 with adjustable magnetic field
fiogf49gjkf0d
 kodomo wrote:
I have also designed my bass horn to operate between 160hz and 600hz and it will use a supravox 285-2000. It is a 110hz cutoff tractrix horn. However I found out that, there is a modified version of this driver that suits my purposes better. It is by German Hornfabrik and they have removed the phase plug among other things as the driver does not need to operate in higher registers. This is what I am in the process of ordering today Smile 

Here is what Helmut from hornfabrik has written to me;
"The 285-2000 HF (= Hornfabrik) is characterized by no phase plug and some other features. This speaker has a higher resonance frequency and is usable from 100 to 1000 Hz. If horn-loaded from 150 - 600 a simple 6dB-filter will do (2,2  mH )and a soft RC-filter at 2 kHz. That will do. A very fine, sonor sound with wonderful mids. We use this speaker in our best horn-systems from 150 - 500 Hz."
I've got 285-2000 EXC to play with different voltages and adjust sentivity, because I expect that most sensitive channel will be this.What are you using below 150hz ?
Page 3 of 10 (190 items) Select Pages:  « 1 2 3 4 5 » ... Last »
   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  5-ways from Speedysteve7..  Hehe - no invite for you...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     23  206550  05-20-2011
  »  New  Macondo Alternation. Extending the LF line-array..  Macondo and not only Macondo positioning...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     8  151165  10-29-2005
  »  New  Macondo’s lowest channel...  What truly are you tryin to accomplish?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     150  1399230  09-15-2010
  »  New  Plugin for drawing segmented petal horns i Sketchup..  Thanks...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     1  16010  08-15-2015
  »  New  Designing and building a 5 channel horn loaded (looking..  The "old" servo......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     73  344656  06-20-2015
  »  New  Eventually - a reasonable midbass horn from GOTO..  Clever DIY going on where?...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     97  1198559  11-19-2007
  »  New  Deep End DIY - Australian take one Macondo...  It is simple, but......  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     87  320156  01-20-2016
  »  New  The Kato-san's Goto system..  Brilliant...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     10  51731  05-23-2017
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