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05-22-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1301
Post ID: 20872
Reply to: 2931
Frank Acoustics Power Bank
fiogf49gjkf0d
There is a Malaysian new company that makes some kind of new power devise. It looks like it is a version of a ferro-resonator but I mish be mistaken.

http://frankacoustics.blogspot.com

http://audiofi.net/2014/05/bankable-power-from-frank-acoustics

I do not know a lot about it and some explanations sounds to me questionable. Still, any new player in the field to fight electrify is welcome. As I understand they sell now only at Asian market, I wonder if any of the Asian site visitor did play with the devise?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
05-22-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1302
Post ID: 20874
Reply to: 20872
"The Side Fins on the Chassis...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...are purely decorative."

also, "Three seems to be the magic number."

Whatever works, of course, but...


Paul S
05-23-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1303
Post ID: 20875
Reply to: 20874
Turbo??
fiogf49gjkf0d
Maybe I misunderstood the article but it appears that the device doesn't do any regeneration or isolate the audio system from the mains current. I read it as supplementing the available current as needed by the moment to moment power requirements of the audio system as it plays music. I assume that it is just able to act faster than the component could get it from the regular mains current because it can't exceed the limit of the circuit. I don't know enough electrical engineering to know if this could be combined with an AC regenerating device effectively. The price seems modest enough.
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1304
Post ID: 20938
Reply to: 2931
Sad state of class-D regenerators for audio.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, it is sad  but all across internet, and at this site (http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=20851) there are comments about pure Purepower service and problems with  Purepower units that they "improve". I kind of sympathize with the people about there but I need to admit that my Purepower units that worked fine in my home did work (an continue work) wonderful in my system. I know what people complain about noise from the  Purepower unit, I never had it and can't relate to it.

A few month ago I made a friend my, the industry person, to get to himself Purepower unit and it did not work for him. He reported noise, the Purepower did not fix it and then he had problem to get his money back. This kind of ridicules as you want to piss the people like the friend of my the least as if the Purepower unit work for him then he would be able to move a LOT of them.  This morning I got an email from another guy who bought new Purepower and has a lot of problem with the unit and  with the Purepower people.

Well, it looks like it is an unavoidable pattern and it looks like the Purepower folks are abut over own ability to handle the satiation. I kind of feel semi-responsible as I was the one who was blabbing about Purepower sound perhaps unintentionally seducing some of the - people out there to try Purepower. I was told that Purepower does not allow anymore 30 days how trail and reluctant to return money foe damage units. That is bad. I am sure that among the Purepower units there are some fools who did something wrong and it was not Purepower fault but the avalanche of complain about the company is self-evident that Purepower folks are killing the company. Very sad indeed as behind this very stupid and very irrational behavior that Purepower demonstrate there is in my view a truly remarkable products and if Purepower goes to dark then it would be a shame to lose the product.

In my view the apparent problem that Purepower has make then a good target for acquisition, if somebody would like to try then it might be a good time - the product is still great but I do not think that they have a lot of sale traffic. From a different perspective buying Purepower own would buy the whole legacy of current product and only God know what in there - I am very convinced that  a lot of crap in there is not necessary.
I was proposed to make my own alternative to Purepower regenerator. Something with  PS Audio-like  bells and whistles, completely audio-oriented (means no battery), 5-6kW, full service/performance indication, very reliable, twice simpler design wise, 4 times smaller and lighter. I spoke with my engineers sand they told me that it would take a month to design Purepower-like from ground up and perhaps another month to build a prototype. 

There is two problems in this scenario. I personally do not want to commit myself to it full time and I neither I, not my engineer, not I think Purepower for that matter know how to make the unit to sound good. I am very convinced that my guys would do 10 times better performing unit, that will be 10 times more stable and will be all together much better engineered machine.  However, I have no idea if it will sound acceptable as I can't form to my engineers the requirement that would be responsible for sound quality. To shoot aimlessly and conduct experiments I have no interest, time and money.

So, what is left for audio people? The example of Purepower  conceptually indicate that by means of switching double conversion regenerator it is possible to accomplish a phenomenal sound improvement but... not one resalable makes those regenerators. Some people can look at the part of commercial  regenerators for computers. A good let say IBM on-line regenerator of 5-6kW cost about $4K - only good know how will it sound. They for sure do not offer 30 days money back...

What I do think is that someone out there shall reading my post of using own judgment to realize that there is a market for a stable, functional and  good sounding Purepower-like devise and unfortunately the Purepower  refuse to deliver it. I wish somebody like Paul McGowan from PS Audio enter the market of class-D regeneration but I am sure that he will be killing his  analog regenerators as Purepower always were better sounding then PowerPlants, if the Purepower were not faulty. Anyhow, I do wish somebody to pick up the torch and would make   relatable and functional class-D power regenerators available.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1305
Post ID: 20939
Reply to: 20938
DIY Battery
fiogf49gjkf0d
It surprises me if you wish to do away with the battery. Or, perhaps a unit could be offered "less battery", which the purchaser/user could add on his/her own. This would "solve" the logistical problems (and the expense) of shchlepping batteries, at least for the "manufacturer"/sales/service people. Surely, anyone could follow instructions and get a decent battery (or batteries) on his/her own.


Paul S
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1306
Post ID: 20941
Reply to: 20939
Get rid of battery...
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Paul S wrote:
It surprises me if you wish to do away with the battery. Or, perhaps a unit could be offered "less battery", which the purchaser/user could add on his/her own. This would "solve" the logistical problems (and the expense) of shchlepping batteries, at least for the "manufacturer"/sales/service people. Surely, anyone could follow instructions and get a decent battery (or batteries) on his/her own.

Well, if I would make the Purepower-like unit from scratch then the subject of buttery would be very much under discussion and scrutiny. The Purepower generator itself is not a reference in decision to use battery. The battery started as an adoption of commercially available computer UPS and for those devises to temporarily power the load without main voltage is critical, at least unit the backup power generator kick in.  So, the presents on battery in UPS device is perfectly reasonable.

Now if e are taking about Purepower-like Audio-ONLY unit then I do not think that UPS functionality is important at all. The unit shall; have some kind of buffer to sustain voltage for let say 50 periods to absorb any short term issues but it no need to run playback from battery. So, using a large caps would store the necessary  energy and no battery would be in the picture.

By getting rid of battery we obtain a lot of benefits, size, weight, the whole charging circuitry, the switching logic - all of it goes. The question is how would it affect sound. The battery acts as an ultra low DCR capacitor and it very much might improve sound. The Purepower itself might run with no battery, I did not try it but I do not think it would be good as battery has no large ultra low DCR caps parallel with battery. I think Purepower uses 470uF cap  but if I do not have battery I would like to have in there let say 1-2F. For sure it is imposable to make any prediction and no one would experiment with Purepower but the opportunity to get rid of all charging and switching logic is very lucrative. In fact that was what constantly did not work well with Purepower.

Me

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1307
Post ID: 20942
Reply to: 20938
Moving on
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes I think we need to move on from PP and yes the question is how to do it. This should not be a major theoretical nut to crack. Double conversion units are plastered all across the world. In my investigations, the one issue with the commercial double conversion units is the onboard fan. I think the designers are anticipating their units being placed in hostile environment like broom closet or where temperature controls are not good unlike home audio. Thus they put a heavy duty fan onboard to protect from overheating. To drop out the fan one has to design heatsinks and improve efficiency carefully. PS Audio came up with a more efficient class AB design and PP went D. I noted several years ago that I was concerned about PP downsizing the unit because without a fan the box design is critical and can't be fudged. We had the NZ incident of drastic overheating and I bet these other events are related.

I did run across a UK firm selling audio double conversion units apparently without a fan. At this time they seem to sell only 220v for euro countries but of course it could be altered for US. The link follows: http://www.powerinspired.com/ag500-ac-regenerator-500w-p-1723.html.
 If this has been noted elsewhere here my apologies.
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1308
Post ID: 20943
Reply to: 20942
I do not have a NEED to move on.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I do not particularly see a need to move on from PP. There is nothing wrong with PP with exception that if they continue to behave as they apparently do then it would be difficult for them to stay in business. The fact that double conversion units are popular across the world is not very inspiriting. The double conversion and a corrected sinusoid itself is NOT an assurance of  better quality. The whole idea of PP was not the double conversion but the sound id made while performing the double conversion. I still have no idea why PP sounds as good as it is. if I know I might do something similar on my own.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1309
Post ID: 20944
Reply to: 20943
God bless the child who has his own
fiogf49gjkf0d
We know two things about PP as it is currently constituted: the current product is not reliable and you don't dare send it back for repair. If one is lucky and gets something that works for a while then feel lucky. The fact that double conversion is widespread and a proven technology is a necessary but not sufficient basis for an audio line conditioner.  Perhaps class D has some idiosyncratic reason it is better for double conversion than AB or maybe it is just happenstance from a particular implementation.  I certainly don't like D as a power amp design. Maybe tubes would be the ultimate method for great AC regeneration. The point is that making these devices requires both design And manufacturing ability and we need to find or encourage someone with both those capabilities to get into the business. BTW I would be interested in hearing from anyone familiar with that linked vendor from the UK in my previous post.
06-04-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006
Post #: 1310
Post ID: 20946
Reply to: 20944
If Battery, then DIY Battery
fiogf49gjkf0d
I guess I needed to say that, outright. Of course I do care about seamless power during line lapses, but not much. I mainly see the battery as a "treated", high-current DC reservoir/source for converting to laundered AC. And, like I have said many times, I think the "dither effect" of the Class D might be a "positive" factor, as well. Several PP users have said the PP works best from its battery, unplugged from the AC line. I think I have never heard from anyone who said it worked well sans battery. Why not give a nod to something known to "work", at least start in that vicinity? A quiet, high current DC/AC converter would be a nice find.

Paul S
06-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1311
Post ID: 20947
Reply to: 20946
Purepower method
fiogf49gjkf0d
It is true never send your unit back for repair to Pure Power. Mine was never returned and my money was never refunded.

I agree the sound of the battery was the most pleasant and quiet when I had my PP2000. It is an approach to the problem, but it is not the only approach. There are different objectives. It needs to be considered that to generate absolutely clean power, a home user can obtain a large supply of batteries and the audio equipment can be made to run on DC. This approach places the burden on the end user, but it is very simple. To create a stable AC supply for universal conditions is huge challenge with many variables and many possible approaches. It is best to keep an open mind and assess each one. For manufacture, consideration of the lowest cost to produce and ship is always important, the opposite of the battery solution which is very immobile.

Adrian
06-05-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1312
Post ID: 20948
Reply to: 20947
No battery would be nice....
fiogf49gjkf0d

Remind you that in properly operating PP it shall not be negligible difference if the unit run from battery or from wall outlet. Sine I do not know why PP sound as good as it is (when it works properly) I can only speculate what the presence of battery would do and how it might impact sound quality.  Presumably it might not affect sound at all properly operating PP would be working perfectly fine with no battery but with large capacitor tank instead of battery. For sure I would not be making those experiments with my PP. It is kind of shame as if PP would back me up with this experiment then they would be able to get rid 2/3 of the regenerator  along with charging circuitry - in my estimation the most problematic in the unit. If I design my own regenerator then I would for sure put the requirement do have any battery.



"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1313
Post ID: 20949
Reply to: 20948
The missing link.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think behind all of those tribulations with PP there is one aspect that is mostly missing by people.

I am leaving for Nova Scotia for a week and before I am leaving I decided to switch my PP in bypass mode. Since the PP have very not-indicative indication in which mode it operates I desired to put a scope to PP's output to assure that I will olive PP in bypass. To my surprise the PP in bypass mode had better shape sinusoid then PP in regeneration mode, it means that sinusoid in the wall was pretty much perfect. Now get this: the perfect wall sinusoid was much better looking than the sinusoid after PP but the system driver by PP was sounded much better. Who the hell this could be reconciled?

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1314
Post ID: 20950
Reply to: 20949
Beyond being surprised at this point
fiogf49gjkf0d

Assuming that there aren't any anomalies or noise components missed by your scope there are several logical possibilities:

1. The PP Bypass mode does Not operate in the way you think it does (or maybe there is an issue in the Regeneration mode).
2. The shape of the sinusoid may not be the decisive correlate with better sound.
3. The PP alters the sonics of a system in ways that are pleasing (colorations) but constitute deviations from the way the system should normally operate.
4. Placebo effect is operating so that you think it sounds better when you think the PP is in regeneration mode. [least likely]
5. The PP affects the sonics by isolating the various components more than by regeneration (assuming a reasonably good wall AC).


I'm sure I am missing a few. I would say options 1 and 2 are most probable.

EDIT: I suppose it is possible that the regeneration mode could be inherently less accurate than the power company on a good day but this doesn't explain the poorer perceived sonics.
06-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1315
Post ID: 20951
Reply to: 20950
That is the whole point
fiogf49gjkf0d
That is a whole point: the shape of the sinusoid and consequential harmonic distortions are not being the decisive factor that responsible for better sound. It is sad that neither PP owners nor we the users after years of using PP still have no idea what in this regenerator makes it to sound so good.
 

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-06-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009
Post #: 1316
Post ID: 20952
Reply to: 20951
What else?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 It certainly seems that once sinusoidal shape gets within a certain spec range  its differential effect becomes negligible. This doesn't necessarily mean that more drastic deviation of sinusoidal shape would be inaudible.The only other factors I can think of are AC current moment to moment availability, grounding issues, RFI, EMI and magnetization of electrical components. These other factors are why passive line conditioners can also exert a positive effect in some ways.  Are there any other power related factors??

 Pure battery operation of audio devices seems much more positive in its sonic effects with the main problem the lack of power to produce fast transients and dynamic changes. Small batteries seem to be too weak but isolation does seem to a decisive factor. Of course the regenerators combine the battery operation with AC replenishment. Once you introduce external AC current into a device however its effects are unpredictable. I suppose the use of class A/B or D amplification could be involved but why that would make a difference with a simple AC wave is not clear unless the class D switching is somehow important.  I do agree that extended UPS beyond the few minutes needed to shut down the audio system is not essential and would simplify things.
06-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1317
Post ID: 20955
Reply to: 20951
The key to Pure Power PP sound is getting them to ship you a unit.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
That is a whole point: the shape of the sinusoid and consequential harmonic distortions are not being the decisive factor that responsible for better sound. It is sad that neither PP owners nor we the users after years of using PP still have no idea what in this regenerator makes it to sound so good.
 
There are many factors as already delineated. The important thing seems to be that PurePower has continued to deliver a product that has improved, apparently, with the new generation and transition to Class D.

I cannot speak to this directly since they have never delivered on their promise to sent me a replacement unit.

However, we can reflect on the topology of the design they have compared to the design of other conditioners to see what differences there are and draw conclusions from that perhaps.

Adrian
06-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008
Post #: 1318
Post ID: 20956
Reply to: 20938
Noise on Purepower
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have not seen it mentioned but I might of missed it. The PurePower absolutely demands shielded interconnects especially between preamp and amp in my experience. No matter how careful I route the cables, I was getting noise or buzzing from the speakers. Exactly as described by many on the net. Only shielded cables were successful to stop this. This is with a Placette passive. On my second system with Purepower, the ground lift on my Placette active sorted the noise out to absolute silence with proper care in routing wires. I just mention this in case others need ideas in diagnosing buzzing that I so often hear of.
06-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004
Post #: 1319
Post ID: 20958
Reply to: 20956
Well, it is a bit more coplex and perhabs simplier.….
fiogf49gjkf0d
 miab wrote:
I have not seen it mentioned but I might of missed it. The PurePower absolutely demands shielded interconnects especially between preamp and amp in my experience. No matter how careful I route the cables, I was getting noise or buzzing from the speakers. Exactly as described by many on the net. Only shielded cables were successful to stop this. This is with a Placette passive. On my second system with Purepower, the ground lift on my Placette active sorted the noise out to absolute silence with proper care in routing wires. I just mention this in case others need ideas in diagnosing buzzing that I so often hear of.

Miab,

this is a bit more complicated that this in my view. First of all I need to admit that I do not believe to people who claim that Purepower produces noise. My units are completely silent and I know other people who have completely silent Purepowers. I have no doubts that the people who report noise do have nose but I attribute the nose to their lock of competence to deal with ground loops. There is another issue – no matter now inapt Purepower folks are and how negligent their assembly and testing I do not think that they can do anything that would make the unit to have the noise while it maintaining in and out grounds and while producing proper wave.

Now, you introduce the notion that Purepower people let say forget to put some kind of shield on pulse coil and some other negligence and it made the unit to be literally radioactive, spreading EMI all over itself. If it was the case then routing of cable would produce auditable result but no one reported it. Years back I had (very stupidly and very sort time) Purepower sitting in my rock with no top cover. It did make the while sushi to sound very hard and impolite but I had no noise. I do not saying that cable routing is unimportant. It is important and it is auditable but not at level of noise but at level of headless of sound. The people who report nose at -20dB hosen report very load nose that sound to me like pure ground loop and not EMI. To inflict -20dB EMI noise the Purepower unit shall have half of kilo plutonium inside….

So, even I do appreciate your experience but I do personally do not think that the shielding is the key.

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005
Post #: 1320
Post ID: 20961
Reply to: 20958
PurePower faulty assembly?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
First of all I need to admit that I do not believe to people who claim that Purepower produces noise. My units are completely silent and I know other people who have completely silent Purepowers. I have no doubts that the people who report noise do have nose but I attribute the nose to their lock of competence to deal with ground loops. There is another issue – no matter now inapt Purepower folks are and how negligent their assembly and testing I do not think that they can do anything that would make the unit to have the noise while it maintaining in and out grounds and while producing proper wave.
If you recall when I had in my possession my PP2000, before I sent it for repairs never to be returned, I did have some buzzing. Now my system is otherwise silent, and while group loops are always a concern, I do not think I was at fault. 

As you recall, the buzz vanished when the PP2000 was unplugged and run in battery mode. Since everything was plugged into the PP2000, nothing else about the circuit was changed. The only change was basically to remove the part of the circuit internal to the PP2000 which acts to process power from the wall outlet. So, I came to conclusion that there must be faulty ground loop wiring defect inside the PP2000.

The idea of faulty assembly was further suspected when the PP2000 failed outright. Of course, we will never know what actually was the issue, since when I sent it back for repairs, it disappeared and I never received a replacement.

Adrian
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