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02-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014

Post #: 1261
Post ID: 20577
Reply to: 20574
Money on its way?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I just got confirmation by mail  from retailer that the money is going to be sent on Monday. I really hope so. If it does I will let all know and I will have to admit I was wrong when I thought these guys where trying to get my money and run. Timing for the refund is hard to explain but at this point i do not care. all I want is my money back. and yes, if I get it as said I will share with you all. 
BestEli
02-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014

Post #: 1262
Post ID: 20578
Reply to: 20573
How to address
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Eli, there is another aspect of your problem. For sure I understand the frustration you had with your PP unit ordering and I do not blame you. If PP do not run continue production and make single unit per order then they need to inform customers about it. There are plenty examples in audio when built-to-order devises take months to build and this is normal. Normal is the expectations are properly set. Anyhow, it is not the point. How PP position itself on the market is their business.

The point that I would like to make is you Eli with your presumed electricity problem. I am sure that you have problem, why anyone would pay 5K to experiment with PP. You thought that having PP would help you with your sonic problems. Well, the PP direction did not work for you, it was not your fault but it was what it was. You got understandably pissed about PP business ethics but I would like to find out that this did not address your problem with electricity. You lost or did not lose your money but the initial frustration with sound that made you to look into PP direction most likely still there.

Well, I am interesting how you deal with your electricity related sonic problems? Did you back on PP juts because they mislead you or you find another devised that you fell might help you? If you still on the market for a device that deal with electricity then, to your surprise, I do suggest you to try PP. Sometimes your dealer will have it in stock - the way how it has to be for a good dealer and you shall be able to borrow the existing unit and to try it. I know the mood that you are now suggest you to forget that they exist. Trust me: I was there a few times myself. The whole quandary with PP is that when these units are available and work properly (sometime it might be a question) then in fact they work stunningly good and make sound uncontestably better.

Eli, I leave you with this though. You might or might not return your attention to PP in future. It is kind of irrelevant to me. However, if you do find your satisfaction in your electricity problem by other then PP means then I hope you share your experience at this site.

Rgs,
Romy the Cat

Romy I have not dealt with it at all. By now and after many years, I have come to the conclusion that electricity has an effect on music. Some days it is good, some is just ok and some is terrible. And I have tried several solutions and all do little to solve it. It affects sound, but not always for the good. If it solves one issue if makes other worse. But none gives consistent good results. They all vary with electricity too. I did have last summer problems with drops in vol. so I thought that the PP battery could provide safety. And since as claimed here the sound was ok I thought it would be a good solution. But after all the trouble I decided to keep it as it is. I am not really concerned about electricity effects on quality of music at this point. Well I am but take it as a given. When is good great and when is ok I live with it and when is terrible I just walk away. These things in general all they do is alter the character of sound for better or for worse much the same way as cables do. All in my experience. 
A thing that has a lot to do as well with quality of music perceived is estate of mind and mood when listening. More important many times then electricity. But that is a different topic. 
02-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1263
Post ID: 20579
Reply to: 20577
I am glad that you are glad.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 eli8888 wrote:
I just got confirmation by mail  from retailer that the money is going to be sent on Monday. I really hope so. If it does I will let all know and I will have to admit I was wrong when I thought these guys where trying to get my money and run. Timing for the refund is hard to explain but at this point i do not care. all I want is my money back. and yes, if I get it as said I will share with you all. 
Eli,

I am glad for you that you get everything you want but frankly your slightly self-inflicted drama is a bit outside of the scope of this thread. As I understand you have no fanatical transaction with manufacture, all deal was made with dealer, and it was the dealer who did not return your payment, hoping that PP will send the unit. Instead demand the reimbursement from your dealer you decided to unleash your rage toward PP. Don’t you think that it is a bit unethical? A good dealer would not allow you to talk to manufacture taken care of all your problems. So, in my judgment the situation with Adrian is ridicules but the situation with you is kind of controversial.  You get your satisfaction and let it to be it. If I buy my Acura from my local dealer and Acura plan in japans doe not ship my particular color and configuration then I would take my complain to Honda Motor Company or to a site where Acura users exchange opinions about Acura driving habits.

Again, I am glad that you are happy but please I do not want to read during the next 2 week not many bitcoins  you bought from the money you recover from PP deal. Let keep the eyes on the ball and return the thread to the subject of audio and sound.

Rgs, Romy


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1264
Post ID: 20580
Reply to: 20578
OK.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 eli8888 wrote:
Romy I have not dealt with it at all. By now and after many years, I have come to the conclusion that electricity has an effect on music. Some days it is good, some is just ok and some is terrible. And I have tried several solutions and all do little to solve it. It affects sound, but not always for the good. If it solves one issue if makes other worse. But none gives consistent good results. They all vary with electricity too. I did have last summer problems with drops in vol. so I thought that the PP battery could provide safety. And since as claimed here the sound was ok I thought it would be a good solution. But after all the trouble I decided to keep it as it is. I am not really concerned about electricity effects on quality of music at this point. Well I am but take it as a given. When is good great and when is ok I live with it and when is terrible I just walk away. These things in general all they do is alter the character of sound for better or for worse much the same way as cables do. All in my experience. 
A thing that has a lot to do as well with quality of music perceived is estate of mind and mood when listening. More important many times then electricity. But that is a different topic. 

Yes, I agree. The estate of mind is important thing and if you developed dislike of the company then you would have difficult time to deal with their components in your playback. I have a few manufactures whose components I would bring in my room only under general anesthesia. I have some manufactures that I hate foe some absolutely idiotic reason, like for instance I never touch Shunyata cable as I hate and panicky afraid snakes. The fact that company call all product with snake names make me want to puke. So, if you have detested PP let it to be so. Please post if you will continue to look for electricity solution and if you find anything worthy. I would greatly prefer if you talk about sound of a solution instead how smooth your next purchasing transaction will go.


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-07-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
miab
Canada
Posts 46
Joined on 02-07-2008

Post #: 1265
Post ID: 20581
Reply to: 20578
Principles or Purepower
fiogf49gjkf0d
Eli,

I was in the same place at one time and accepted my listening as it was in relation to electricity. You say

"When [electricity] is good great and when is ok I live with it and when is terrible I just walk away".

This is fine to say and is your right but I will tell you that once a PurePower (or whatever other proper solution you find) unit is in your system you will no longer schedule your listening around the power company or whatever else is the culprit. We have a finite number of days here and why not enjoy them all. There are some excesses in life that should be culled but music listening is not one of them. You are angry, understood, and I had many delays with Purepower that made me think of giving up but they are merely an instrument to a goal. If there was another solution available then I am with you but I have not found one and neither anyone I know. I had a dac that took 10 months, a turntable bearing a year and two compression drivers that took almost three years to arrive. All of them had me wanting to give up on them but persevered for the goal. I have spoken to Damien and Richard many times and they have always been courteous and polite although not always timely. I never felt they were taking me for a ride but that they were perhaps technically in their heads and not so much sales pushers. Eli, I think it is easy for you to follow your principals because you have not heard yet what your missing. Pick the very best day/night of electricity you have ever heard (perhaps only a couple days a year) and then imagine being 99% of that all the time. It will allow you to mature sonically towards all of the other components in your system. It allows you to find the real limits of upstream components and makes for a nice to tool form your sound.
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014

Post #: 1266
Post ID: 20582
Reply to: 20579
One more post to go and move on
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 eli8888 wrote:
I just got confirmation by mail  from retailer that the money is going to be sent on Monday. I really hope so. If it does I will let all know and I will have to admit I was wrong when I thought these guys where trying to get my money and run. Timing for the refund is hard to explain but at this point i do not care. all I want is my money back. and yes, if I get it as said I will share with you all. 
Eli,

I am glad for you that you get everything you want but frankly your slightly self-inflicted drama is a bit outside of the scope of this thread. As I understand you have no fanatical transaction with manufacture, all deal was made with dealer, and it was the dealer who did not return your payment, hoping that PP will send the unit. Instead demand the reimbursement from your dealer you decided to unleash your rage toward PP. Don’t you think that it is a bit unethical? A good dealer would not allow you to talk to manufacture taken care of all your problems. So, in my judgment the situation with Adrian is ridicules but the situation with you is kind of controversial.  You get your satisfaction and let it to be it. If I buy my Acura from my local dealer and Acura plan in japans doe not ship my particular color and configuration then I would take my complain to Honda Motor Company or to a site where Acura users exchange opinions about Acura driving habits.

Again, I am glad that you are happy but please I do not want to read during the next 2 week not many bitcoins  you bought from the money you recover from PP deal. Let keep the eyes on the ball and return the thread to the subject of audio and sound.

Rgs, Romy

ROmy is a bit more complex than that. I did my purchase from a retailer. And I did claim to the retailer. But it was the retailer that put me in contact with the manufacturer and manufacturer got involved by sending me mails. I did not contact them. They could have said that I needed to deal with retailer and so I would have done. But it was them that sent me mails giving me promises on dates and eventually agreeing in written to refund. Why they (dealer and manufacturer) decided to do it that why I do not know, but I assumed they had an agreement that the dealer would refund only after the refund from the manufacturer. It looked that way from the mails I have both from dealer and manufactured cc each other. And so that is why I claimed to both. Because both promised to do the refund by mail to me.  
In any case, I do not have the intention to keep on going with this history anymore as at this point I think it adds little value to anyone. All that had to be said has been said. To some it may seem like an exaggeration. For others, having to wait over 2 months for a refund may seem not acceptable. That is for each to decide. And whatever conclusion each one gets to is fine with me too. For the interest of those who may find it useful I will share how it ends. If I really get my money back it will only be of justice to tell the whole history. We will see if that is the case. And from there move on. 
I do not think after that I will want to speak of PP for a long while. Their products may be great. Have no idea nor the intention to find out at this point of time. 
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014

Post #: 1267
Post ID: 20583
Reply to: 20581
Many solutions
fiogf49gjkf0d
Miab, there are many solutions out there. Most of them from small companies. It is a niche market for sure. To try them all is almost impossible at least you want to expend a fortune. And end up with a bunch of useless gear as most I know do little to solve the problem. They just tune the sound not always for the good. 
The following has come to my mind many times. Last time 2 weeks ago when I was in London for business. ON thursday evening went to a concert at Soutbank center. It was the Philharmonia playing the Brahms cycle. (what a great orchestra). 4th symphony and second piano concerto. I was lucky enough as to get 2 excellent seats. Listening there i once more realized that what we do at our houses, even if electricity is great, does transmit a small portion of what is going on, specially emotions. If electricity is great great great, you may get the 25% illusion and feelings of the real thing. If it is ok maybe 20%. if it is terrible well who know but that is not that common. Is it worth it to go through all the pian and expense just to gain that small 5%? Music reproduction is what it is. A different thing. You like it or not, the sound you get. If you like it fantastic. Keep in that direction. But go out and listen. It will make you listening experience at home much more enjoyable too regardless of gear, conditioners, electricity, cables or whatever else you want to expend you money on.
I guess that is what a professional music feels when they listen to our systems. They enjoy them because of the music. They know what to expect and listen to it regardless of deviations and they enjoy it very much. That is the way I think we can get more out of our systems too. By getting more familiar to the real thing and just listening back the copy at home, knowing that is just that a copy abut having fresh in mind the real thing.
anyway, also a bit off topic and philosophical. 

02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 1268
Post ID: 20584
Reply to: 20583
Survey
fiogf49gjkf0d
I wonder how many of those who feel the need to use a pp have tried other double  conversion devices. Rather as with amplifiers it is the core topology that matters most. A pp is just a double conversion ups, there is no other innovation in there that the manufacturer can point to. (And if there were they would be shouting about it). A device with the same topology and quiet fans will likely be much closer in performance than the price differential would justify.
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
eli8888
Posts 17
Joined on 02-05-2014

Post #: 1269
Post ID: 20585
Reply to: 20583
Many solution typos
fiogf49gjkf0d
Many typos on the post. Hate tables keyboards. Sorry for that.
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1270
Post ID: 20586
Reply to: 20584
Reckoning Overall Costs
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, decoud, looking at it like this, it does seem like it would just be a matter of time, money, and some working electrical knowledge before one found an acceptable alternative. One bonus of the DIY route might be that it could incorporate a larger, better battery, since the battery is obviously more than just proof against interruptions. Which UPS, though? Like I said many pages ago, the DC/AC converters I've been exposed to are noisy, so that seems like the first hurdle to me. As far as obtaining UPS "parts", many, if not most of the major component sub-assemblies used by the audio-oriented manufacturers come from OEM companies, and some of these companies in turn sell stuff to consumers under other names and/or out the back door. I think the question for most OCD audiophiles is one of personal cost/benefit, whether it's "worth it" to mess with all this when there seems to be a ready-made solution at hand that swaps more money for the knowledge and all the experiments. From a long list of cost considerations, can zero profit offset wholesale purchasing power vs. paying retail for parts? I think, probably, yes. However, the list of considerations goes on (and on...).

Best regards,
Paul S
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
decoud
United Kingdom
Posts 247
Joined on 03-01-2008

Post #: 1271
Post ID: 20587
Reply to: 20586
Implementation vs topology
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul, I have used in the past standard double conversion units where I have converted the fans to quieter ones, and installed controls on their speed. There is generally substantial overhead on the cooling, and these things are designed to shut down safely if they overheat. The effort and cost involved in this is negligible. I now use a unit made by http://www.powerinspired.com/ that simply builds that into the design, at a cost that is still much less than pp and no issues with supply, maintenance etc.
The wider point here is that idiosyncrasies of specific implementations can only be assessed once one has a reasonably synoptic view of the general topology. We are accustomed to demanding that in our evaluation of amplifiers, say, yet less so when it comes to power. But the situation is the same.   
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1272
Post ID: 20588
Reply to: 20587
Sensible
fiogf49gjkf0d
Makes a lot of sense to investigate the possibilities. Since I have one of the older PP units I can make direct comparisons as well. I didn't like the original PS Audio Power Plants back in the day but they have modified the units since then. I don't know if anyone has run a comparison?? There also may well be generic solutions out there. Witness the current idiocy with things like the $2000 Furutech demag device when there are surface demags for $75-200 or the Vibraplane situation.
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1273
Post ID: 20589
Reply to: 20588
Again, The Battery
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have pretty well convinced myself that it is important to have a battery as an "active" element between the up and down converters. Of course, the PS units do without this, though I have not tried the newer ones in my own system. Obviously, a big, heavy battery would add substantially to the unit cost, and we can do the math to come out with what that finally means at the retail level. The trend is certainly toward smaller, lighter, and "more efficient", again for obvious reasons apart from sound.

Until I hear something good, I can't take the mag or de-mag things seriously, nor the embedded crystals, and whatnot. YMMV, peace, etc.

Best regards,
Paul S
02-08-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1274
Post ID: 20590
Reply to: 20589
Generic was the point
fiogf49gjkf0d
My comment about demags or Vibraplanes did not concern the sonic merits of these devices, merely that audio firms were charging 5 to 10 times the cost of a virtually identical generic device. The same point may well apply to ac/dc conversion devices for power generation.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1275
Post ID: 20591
Reply to: 20581
Audiophile manufacturers
fiogf49gjkf0d
 miab wrote:
I had a dac that took 10 months, a turntable bearing a year and two compression drivers that took almost three years to arrive. All of them had me wanting to give up on them but persevered for the goal. I have spoken to Damien and Richard many times and they have always been courteous and polite although not always timely.
It is quite true that when I have spoken with Damian and Richard, they have always been pleasant, but the delay - at least  for me - has gone beyond the pale. It has been even longer than when I was waiting for John Bicht (Versa Dynamics) and that was a very long wait indeed. It is the part and parcel of small manufacturer audiophile products.

Adrian
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
drdna
San Francisco, California
Posts 526
Joined on 10-29-2005

Post #: 1276
Post ID: 20592
Reply to: 20583
Listening to tune the system
fiogf49gjkf0d
 eli8888 wrote:
And end up with a bunch of useless gear as most I know do little to solve the problem. They just tune the sound not always for the good. 
The key is to find the deficiencies in your system by listening to it and to correct the deficient components.


 eli8888 wrote:
even if electricity is great, does transmit a small portion of what is going on, specially emotions. If electricity is great great great, you may get the 25% illusion and feelings of the real thing. If it is ok maybe 20%. if it is terrible well who know but that is not that common. Is it worth it to go through all the pian and expense just to gain that small 5%?
If it is so small a gain, maybe you are looking in the wrong place. True that if many things are deficient in a system, adding PP3000 will not magically cure everything. I recommend PP3000 only if electricity is the main issue you deal with. Focus on the most obvious weaknesses to get the most benefit.


 eli8888 wrote:
I guess that is what a professional music feels when they listen to our systems. They enjoy them because of the music. They know what to expect and listen to it regardless of deviations and they enjoy it very much.
I have said it before in another thread, but the musicians hear as we do, but they are more concerned about the flaws in the performance than the flaws in the reproduction of the sound. Both things are critical to conveying The Sound however.


Adrian
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
rowuk


Germany
Posts 454
Joined on 07-05-2012

Post #: 1277
Post ID: 20593
Reply to: 20589
Why is this technology not built IN to every piece of equipment?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I find the discussions about "mad" electricity interesting because:
We don't know what is causing the problem
We don't know what is fixing the problem but that PP seems to have something that gives at least a predictable result.

I mean, we are not talking about $20 phono preamps here. If electricity is the problem, then technology belongs in EVERY power supply to insure SOUND. Instead, I get the impression that many just want a tweakable solution to endlessly discuss.

It has been documented here that a "pure" sine wave does not mean instant better tone. It has not been documented what is "in" the powerline when it sounds like shit. Oscilloscopes could at least give us a view if there was something "significant". How many factors can be involved here? Voltage, Current, Impedance, frequencies other than the 50/60Hz. All very measurable and if I read the posts correctly, things that PP seem to compensate for or correct.

Regeneration is not rocket science - or even that expensive. Why should decent gear not have it built in? Multiple 3 KW regenerators just for listening to a record or CD through headphones sounds pretty ridiculous to me............

The world is SCREAMING for a Melq RT!


Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,155
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 1278
Post ID: 20594
Reply to: 20593
Very valid point.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 rowuk wrote:
Regeneration is not rocket science - or even that expensive. Why should decent gear not have it built in?

This is a very valid point.  I told before that if PP were “smart” about stabilizing own future, or if for instance it was my company, then I would released PP’s own power amplifier with regeneration build in and the regenerator optimized for the need of a given amp. I pitched it to PP a few times and even proposed them to employ Dima’s Zarathustra II idea. It would be very interesting amp but it had no traction.
 


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,656
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 1279
Post ID: 20595
Reply to: 20594
"Buffers" and Bespoke Regenerators
fiogf49gjkf0d
Effective per-unit power conditioning/regeneration is a nice dream, and it does make some sense in limited practical terms. There would have to be a way to effectively isolate treated system components, however, since the switching power supplies are toxic to other devices operating anywhere near them, typically including anything that shares a power line with them. Bill Gaw has talked generally about using multiple PPs in his large, complicated system, which is at least an indication that it can be done. In any case, creating "stackable" treated components might be another matter. I would think amps would be the place to start, since their higher current requirements raise the size and the cost of effective regeneration considerably, especially when multiple amps are used in a system. A "hidden" benefit of the unit approach is that the regeneration could be specifically tailored to a particular amp's power requirements.

Paul S
02-09-2014 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 1280
Post ID: 20596
Reply to: 20590
Quick research
fiogf49gjkf0d
I did some research about non audio marketed AC regenerators. The terminology used commercially is either "online" or "double conversion" UPS. They all have expandable battery packs. There is another topology called "line interactive" which is equivalent to the audio power filters/conditioners without double conversion. Any double conversion unit running on a 15A circuit retails from about $400 - 900. At the lower price end you get a double conversion unit between 700 and 1000W capacity. At the upper 900-1500W. For 20A circuits these units cost between $1000 - $1500. There are also 30A circuit models up to 8000W. These latter models cost about $4000. There are 6-8 companies that are very visible in the market and there seem to be dozens more both in the US and internationally.  The 15A models all have conventional outlets but 20A and 30A models are more variable. Some have conventional 20A outlets, some are meant to be hardwired etc.

The issue with most of the commercial units is the fan. Their fans seem to be way overbuilt for home use. They are built for commercial-industrial use so they may be put in utility closets or near hot equipment. Digging around I found several people who either disabled the fan or replaced it with a smaller quieter fan with no ill effects in home settings.

Some folks have used the commercial units described above to power home theater systems and have given them a thumbs up. I'm sure some models are quieter than others and as noted sometimes the fan has just been replaced with a quieter model. My guess is that the audio marketed units just optimize the fan since they know it will be restricted to home use.

Obviously there was no systematic sonic analysis of all these various units. FWIW a few users did say they heard no sonic difference between the commercial units  and the audio specific units.
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