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12-24-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 961
Post ID: 17569
Reply to: 17568
A different type of filtration?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Having two dedicated lines of each phase-split was a great idea. Each of the phase-split behave like different animal and even though there there is some penetration of events from one 120V phase-split to another but they do act, measure and sound as independent lines. Thinking about it this morning an interesting idea comes to me.

We all know that shunting AC line with capacitance lower noise and lower harmonic distortion in the power line. The people with ears also know that caps in AC power line do destroy sound. They are come companies the claim “better” caps and that their caps on AC power line do not make Sound worth but I still would like to see such caps. Anyhow, what if to use the filtering caps not on the phase-split where my PP3000 runs but on another half of the split? The other half of the split still run on the secondary of full-phase but it is possible that it will not have adverse consequence to sound as it has if filter runs on the same line.

Interesting…
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-25-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 962
Post ID: 17571
Reply to: 17569
Isolation transformer and PP3000
fiogf49gjkf0d
I know it does not make any sense but it looks like the power line before PP3000 does matter. I took today my large 3kW isolation transformer and place it between my dedicated line and PP3000. I lost my lower bass, simple as that.  Yes, the isolation transformer did wonderful thing with noise that PP3000 returns back to the power line, it just simply illuminates it but who cares is it ruins Sound. So, what I thinking: if the noise from switching PS is so effectively taken care by isolation transformers then why do not use the isolation transformers on my house power consumer and let the PP3000 to run from my dedicated line as I have it now ….but to have the house isolated from dedicated line via isolation transformer. Or perhaps I just need a better quality isolation transformer to run on the PP3000 line? It truly does not make any sense as PP3000 shall buffer everything that happens before it. I might understand if some kind of ultra HF noise (we are talking 100s Meg) would pass across PP3000, in fact it will pass across anything, but why PP3000 does not override the sonic problem of isolation transformer?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 963
Post ID: 17577
Reply to: 17568
That is a manful piece of work Romy
fiogf49gjkf0d
We should all be grateful that you're documenting it so well.
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 964
Post ID: 17578
Reply to: 17571
Dedications isolations etc FWIW
fiogf49gjkf0d

Romy,

    Your findings are more congruent than not with my own experiences with  different systems and environments.

Dedicated lines:.  My experience with a dedicated line was when I was in a detached house. The line corresponded to your first dedicated (inhouse) line. In slight contrast to you I noticed a mild (but only a mild) improvement compared to the house line. However I didn’t have dimmers or other nasty devices and I lived in a smaller town about 60 miles from a big city.  It seems that if there is any path whatever then the “dedicated” line will experience leakage from other lines. I think the only way around this is to have a second “drop” from the utility going to a separate wiring installation (or separate room/building).

Line distortion:  I think that much of the distortion from house non-audio devices (refrigerators etc) is ameliorated by randomization of peaks and troughs. The key is how varied the other devices are (assuming they are Not on the same circuit as audio). You have an unusual situation because you have so many dimmers (one type of device).

Power regenerators: They seem to behave as another component in the audio system rather than something apart or preceding it. I had a PS Audio power plant at one time and while it did some good things It was inconsistent in its effects. I assume from your experience that the Pure Power regenerators are better but they also seem to behave as components in the audio system. For example, I use a VPI SDS regenerator to operate the turntable. When I stuck a balun in between the wall and the SDS I noticed a reduction in noise level but like you I also noticed a negative effect on the sound. However, if I stuck the balun between the SDS and the turntable (ie the turntable plug into the balun and the balun into the SDS) then I heard noise reduction Without a negative effect on the sonics. But note that the SDS – balun – turntable motor have no direct connections with the audio components.

As a side note because of my dissatisfaction with the existing regenerators (other than the SDS) I  ended up going with PS Audio baluns (UO). However, I found that each component had to be plugged into a separate balun to achieve significant results. The baluns are then daisychained back to the wall. The balun is supposed to reduce noise bidirectionally and it does seem to do that. (Most reviewers did not use a separate PS Audio balun for each component. leading to equivocal results IMO). I felt that the sound was more natural with the baluns than the power plant. The drawback is that I’m still at the mercy of the utility to some extent since I have somewhat less insulation from their garbage. I will try the Pure Power regenerator this year and hope it does better. But I suspect I will still need baluns if the SDS experience is any guide.

As for your installation I agree that was a brilliant idea to have the two splits on the (improved) dedicated line. I would also be interested in any experiments you do in trying to buffer the individual components from each other.

12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 965
Post ID: 17579
Reply to: 17578
Oh and while you're at it...
fiogf49gjkf0d
...I hope y'all are attending to AC polarity alignment, else many of your decisions may be erroneous. I've written so much about this perfectly audible phenomenon that I don't feel like doing it any more, so I point you to an excellent comprehensive article, beginning with an excerpt.

WHAT YOU NEED TO BE AN OBJECTIVE SCIENTIST. Almost all of your audio equipment has a transformer in it that serves as a source of power for the circuits inside. Not all manufacturers hook up their transformers so as to minimize voltage leakage to the chassis, otherwise called the "chassis to ground potential". One can measure this by purchasing some of the most expensive objective testing equipment known to man and Julian Hirsh. What you will be measuring is the amount of voltage running around in the chassis of your audio stuff. The preferred voltage is the lowest voltage, which will save you from making dreadful subjective decisions.

http://www.boundforsound.com/tweak.htm

Note: You can also use a DVM, as you will learn.

Just one thing he omits: The two legs of a split-240 feed are in opposite phases, so watch out!

c
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 966
Post ID: 17581
Reply to: 17579
Isolatiom transformers etc
fiogf49gjkf0d
CJ Yes I have assessed AC polarity in my system.

Romy says "I took today my large 3kW isolation transformer and place it between my dedicated line and PP3000. I lost my lower bass, simple as that.  "

Speaking of isolation transformers, I have not had good luck with them at least with my pure audio systems. I have had somewhat better experience with AV equipment or computers. I have found some devices and power cords that were not good in my audio system worked quite well with my (small) HT system and with my computer (and associated audio). For example the PS Audio power cords produced amazingly sluggish bass on my audio system but when used as the computer power cord lost that characteristic completely and provided improved computer audio and video performance. (Most other after market power cords I have tried have been worse in my audio system than HT or computer.)  Similarly I found the Audience power filters produced a slight hardening of the sound in my audio system (as do Shunyata) but are excellent when my TV is plugged into them.
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 967
Post ID: 17582
Reply to: 17581
AC polarity and Bybee crap.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 steverino wrote:
You have an unusual situation because you have so many dimmers (one type of device).
Well, the unusual situation is only as experimentation. In the house I bough pretty much etch light switch had a dimmer. I have removed quite a few of them and left only 12 or so left, excluding bedrooms. I however hardly even use more then 1-3 during listening and since I converted my main listening light to non-dimmering then it will be just 1-2 dimmer that I feel do not impact sound, not to mention that one of them is sitting on another phase-split.

 steverino wrote:
Power regenerators: They seem to behave as another component in the audio system rather than something apart or preceding it. I had a PS Audio power plant at one time and while it did some good things It was inconsistent in its effects. I assume from your experience that the Pure Power regenerators are better but they also seem to behave as components in the audio system.

I more agree then disagree. It is very easy to go astray with recognition of power regenerators as some kind of power improving devises. For sure they do improve power but they also have own sound, own sound that might not necessary relates to the power improvement, or put in this way: relates but not so straight forward. I happened to like a lot how the Pure Power sound, is it strictly related to improvement of electricity? Hw, perhaps but I do not have a definitive answer. Put in this way: if I run Pure Power Company then I would consider making a class A or A/B amplifier with Pure Power instead of power supply…

 clarkjohnsen wrote:
...I hope y'all are attending to AC polarity alignment, else many of your decisions may be erroneous. I've written so much about this perfectly audible phenomenon that I don't feel like doing it any more, so I point you to an excellent comprehensive article, beginning with an excerpt.

I did not see you write or say anything about AC polarity; you constantly keep stressing Acoustic Polarity but not the AC polarity. At least I did not witness it. Anyhow, AC polarity is for sure a well know phenomena (it was multiple times mentioned at this site) and no one argue that it has to be properly handled. Thankfully with proper following electrical code and proper attention with equipment the  AC polarity shall not be a problem and it take care itself.

 clarkjohnsen wrote:
WHAT YOU NEED TO BE AN OBJECTIVE SCIENTIST. Almost all of your audio equipment has a transformer in it that serves as a source of power for the circuits inside. Not all manufacturers hook up their transformers so as to minimize voltage leakage to the chassis, otherwise called the "chassis to ground potential". One can measure this by purchasing some of the most expensive objective testing equipment known to man and Julian Hirsh. What you will be measuring is the amount of voltage running around in the chassis of your audio stuff. The preferred voltage is the lowest voltage, which will save you from making dreadful subjective decisions.

http://www.boundforsound.com/tweak.htm

Actually AC polarity has nothing to do with voltage leakage in transformers. I do not know what Julian Hirsh measures but flipping AC polarity you do not deal with voltage leakage. Regarding the article. I did not read it. I glance from the end and find a reference to Bybee-Sucker as the best AC line filtering device of its kind”. I do not know who wrote it but he is in idiot as Bybee devises are piece of crap, made to use only by deaf morons. 10 year ago I participate in blind test what I with 100% accuracy was able to detect the presence of one single Bybee-Sucker in system – I truly hate that shit and I discard any authors to patronize the Bybee crap.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 968
Post ID: 17583
Reply to: 17582
Clarifications
fiogf49gjkf0d
clarkjohnsen wrote:
...I hope y'all are attending to AC polarity alignment, else many of your decisions may be erroneous. I've written so much about this perfectly audible phenomenon that I don't feel like doing it any more, so I point you to an excellent comprehensive article, beginning with an excerpt.

I did not see you write or say anything about AC polarity; you constantly keep stressing Acoustic Polarity but not the AC polarity. At least I did not witness it.
 
CJ: I wrote as early as 1988 in The Wood Effect, and have been talking about it since even earlier. Plus numerous mentions in my columns and on Audio Asylum. I'm huge on it!

Anyhow, AC polarity is for sure a well know phenomena (it was multiple times mentioned at this site) and no one argue that it has to be properly handled. Thankfully with proper following electrical code and proper attention with equipment the AC polarity shall not be a problem and it take care itself.

CJ: It does not take care of itself (what does?) and following the code doesn't get you there either.

Actually AC polarity has nothing to do with voltage leakage in transformers. I do not know what Julian Hirsh measures but flipping AC polarity you do not deal with voltage leakage.
 
CJ: Indeed, it is current leakage... but measured by the difference in potential. The article was correctly, if ambiguously, phrased.

Regarding the article. I did not read it. I glance from the end and find a reference to Bybee-Sucker as the best AC line filtering device of its kind”.
 
CJ: The article was written nearly 20 years ago; much has changed. Had you read it... well...

I do not know who wrote it but he is in idiot as Bybee devises are piece of crap, made to use only by deaf morons.
 
CJ: As with power cords and everything, YMMV.

10 year ago I participate in blind test what I with 100% accuracy was able to detect the presence of one single Bybee-Sucker in system – I truly hate that shit and I discard any authors to patronize the Bybee crap.

CJ: There are, of course, several models and succeeding generations. To which do you refer?

c

12-26-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 969
Post ID: 17584
Reply to: 17583
Comply with electrical code
fiogf49gjkf0d
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
It does not take care of itself (what does?) and following the code doesn't get you there either…. Indeed, it is current leakage... but measured by the difference in potential.
Clark, you a bit simplistic understand the the notion of AC polarity. If you have one individual component in audio system then the AC polarity is matter and you can get it by measure the potential between one neutral and ground and then compare it with reversal connection. However if you have 3, 35 or 135 AC power-using components in system then the AC polarity of individual component need to be set in the same way. If all components are made by the electrical code (and in 99.99% of cases they are) then you will not have situation that one component AC polarity screw another. I NEVER saw a production component that has reversed AC polarity. I hear that some of them do but I never saw it myself. From what I saw your current leakage always was smaller in the side that complied with code. If you begin to flip individual component then the question that you face: do you need to measure the components individual or in assembly into the system. In non symmetrical systems there is no true answer to it. 
 
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lx_
France
Posts 33
Joined on 12-06-2009

Post #: 970
Post ID: 17585
Reply to: 17562
To be continued
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
PP has the ultimate tool that allows detecting a LOT about its operation. Do you observe the same behavior as you describe when you pull out the power cord and let the unit to run from internal battery?

I made experiments in the past running on battery. Sound was improved very substantially, lifting additional dryness. The result was really pleasing giving very relaxed sound. At the beginning I ran on battery by unplugging the power cord of PP. Later I just used the toggle at the back of the unit. There is some slight difference (ground is connected or not) but that is  very minor compared to the improvement you get from battery operation. I do not get to run on battery often though since batteries are quite old and do not last long (only a few minutes).

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Whatever problem you have is less likely related to ground. If I was you then I would check if the unit has full profile sinusoid at full load. Use 10:1 probe, any type of analog scope (you can pit it used for $30) and analyze the bottom and top of the curve. The type of sonic problem you describe ideally associated with minor clipping of sine wave. This eats dynamics and subdue phrasing. The most important is that clipping injects huge amount of HF “white” noise deluding all sound with some king of external “gray” pressure. The effect is very common when idiots run 3-8W SET and drive with them 87dB sensitive speakers. They all sound the same – “stuffy” and partially because the clipping in the wave bombard the speakers with 7, 9 and 11 harmonics at very high frequency.  I do not know if you have the same effect but from what you describe it would be what I would check first.

I will try to pick a scope and measure as suggested.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I do not think that you will be able to measure signal’s problem, all that you need to is to assure that your unit output proper sinusoid to full load.   I do not think that it is “noise comes through PP” and it is most likely not comes through ground. If you have the assurance that you have no Voltage clipping at full power then there is 80% of change that you PP2000 operate properly. If it runs fine from buttery then your amplification and your output filters are fine as well and then you have a legitimate case regarding the PP2000 intuit stage.

I know that battery operation is excellent which as you say proves that PP can operate properly. I do not use PP at full load (only 40-45%) but will still see how sine wave looks like. I have already suspected the input stage in the past but not sure how to prove that or improve it. Anyway thanks a lot for your feedback, it is much appreciated.
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Lx_
France
Posts 33
Joined on 12-06-2009

Post #: 971
Post ID: 17586
Reply to: 17563
Charging current
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
What I detected is that when the PP3000 starts and begin to charge the battery then it has very slightly different sound then what the battery is completely charged. This is acid battery as it always being charged but apparently the charging current doe has some impact to sound.

This is interesting as it confirms what I have observed myself. Indeed when the battery gets charged the sound is different from when it is charged. I have noticed this especially after the battery is discharged completely (after PP shuts itself down when running on battery). I think this is also true whenever after running on battery, not only after full discharge, but to a lesser extent.

I have also wondered if this could explain differences in sound that I cannot explain otherwise: no other device getting on in the house, yet sound gets worse. Could it be that the PP is charging the batteries? Indeed under normal operating conditions some power must be drawn from batteries, also the batteries discharge naturally. So they must be recharged. I do not know if this is done continuously or if some discharge level must be reached before PP engages the charging circuit (which may impact sound).
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #: 972
Post ID: 17587
Reply to: 17578
SDS and balun random thoughts
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
However, if I stuck the balun between the SDS and the turntable (ie the turntable plug into the balun and the balun into the SDS) then I heard noise reduction Without a negative effect on the sonics. But note that the SDS – balun – turntable motor have no direct connections with the audio components.



steverino, i read your observations with a big interest as i'm cooking something similar to SDS but 3-phase.
thinking aloud, this is what comes to my mind: SDS synthesizes sinewave from a scratch, there
is most probably some dedicated processor and a DAC. all that digital
synthesis vomits HF trash, which must be then filtered at the output.
if not, it's then likely to be propagted by the SDS-to-turnatble cable, acting as an antena, and
picked by the cartridge/SUTs/phono. I don't know what is at the SDS's output,
but perhaps their filtering is not good enough if placing
a PSA balun (a HF isolation tranny if I'm right)
improves the noise level.
why it acts as it acts on the wall-to-SDS side i'm pretty clueless (sound degradation). the digital synthesizer for sure
emits some trash also on the power supply side.
best,
N-set





Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 973
Post ID: 17588
Reply to: 17586
Again about the PurePower battery charger.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Lx_ wrote:
Indeed when the battery gets charged the sound is different from when it is charged. I have noticed this especially after the battery is discharged completely (after PP shuts itself down when running on battery). I think this is also true whenever after running on battery, not only after full discharge, but to a lesser extent.

I have also wondered if this could explain differences in sound that I cannot explain otherwise: no other device getting on in the house, yet sound gets worse. Could it be that the PP is charging the batteries? Indeed under normal operating conditions some power must be drawn from batteries, also the batteries discharge naturally. So they must be recharged. I do not know if this is done continuously or if some discharge level must be reached before PP engages the charging circuit (which may impact sound).

This is very simple, the problem you describes and I completely concur derives from the fact the PurePower improperly implement at the unit charger. When battery is discharged the impedance of the battery drops, consequentially the charging current is very high. Some whatever circuitry they use to charge battery (switching DC-DC converter or classing transformer-rectifier-filter) is passing very high current. In fact if you completely discharge the buttery then for the first few second the charger will be screaming at 90db with a voice is a wounded hyena. In a few second as the battery get charged a bit the impedance of the battery rice and the current subdued.

So, the PurePower charging circuit is strong enough made to care the “cruse current”, or the minimal current of the fully charged battery. As the battery gets discharged then the charging circuit operates in semi-stressed mode. I did report this observation to PurePower and I did expressed my opinion to them that it is NORMAL as the typical operation of the regenerator with battery fully charged and the charger passing high current is only temporary, very short state.

However, having said above I do feel that enter charging circuitry is the biggest liability of PurePower unit and I wish they would revise it. The worsening sound during high current charge is just a symptom of much wider problem. The battery charger is the ONLY one element of PurePower that hard connects the outside line with inside line. I hope it is has galvanic decoupling of some sort (isolation transformer) but the biggest problem is that the charging circuitry creates a hell of noise inside of the units.  If you put a scope at the PurePower output then you will see a default PurePower waveform. Then, if you just put the unit in battery testing mode, what will flip unit for a few second to battery operation, than you will see as charger kicks in that over the default PurePower waveform will be a lot of distortions and they will be gradually go away as battery get charged. If you take a stethoscope and listen the PurePower chassis then you will clearly hear that the distortions on the waveforms will be very harmonious with the noise of the charging transformer (or whatever they use).

I do not know if it is unconfident filtration of charging current, the emitted EMI/RMF radiation of the charging elements or anything else but I know that it might be fixed. The PurePower needs very slightly to beef up the charging mechanism, or perhaps to unit better filtration and most likely to shield it. I am absolutely confident and I have written many time about it that the “fussiness distortions” that are not there during the battery operation and are there during the line operation are derivatives from improperly operating charging elements of PurePower. I do not know if PurePower work on it. The unit was initially designed I am sure for UPS service and those level of details were not in the mind If would not take a lot of efforts for PurePower to revise the charging elements, I hope they go there sometimes. Well, I can get from them a bypass switch for years, how long you think it will take for them to put a mu-metal shield around the battery charger?

Well, saying all of it I am a bit afraid that changing something PurePower people might accidently loose the glorious sound that I think they have today. So, I am kind of want to stress them to work on the "defetive" charger but at the same time I a bit afraid of it. Who knows why this damn regenerator sounds so good? It would be a hideous discovery if it turns out that the PurePower unit sounds so good…. because the distortions from changer. The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 974
Post ID: 17591
Reply to: 17588
Purepower battery pack
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy says " I do feel that enter charging circuitry is the biggest liability of PurePower unit...  It would be a hideous discovery if it turns out that the PurePower unit sounds so good…. because the distortions from changer."

Sorry for the potentially ignorant question since I do not yet own one. Can't you remove the battery pack from the unit and see what the sound is like? According to the Pure Power web site the battery packs are optional so I would think the unit's recharger would be inoperative in such circumstances. Based on your and other comments I wouldn't even buy the battery pack.

Why are recharging circuits even located within the PP chassis but instead part of a battery pack chassis connected by a cable and toggle switch or something? This is the problem with these audio manufacturers. They constantly add bells and whistles and then stuff them in the same case.At least if they would put them in a separate optional box their side effects might be more muted. Every non essential circuit should be put somewhere separate.
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 975
Post ID: 17592
Reply to: 17527
Pp2000 problem
fiogf49gjkf0d
Had an interesting problem with one of my 2000- units last night. Was listening to Rite of Spring fairly loudly and about 8 minute in there are two strong bass drum thwacks. On the firast one, onr of the units shut down all of the outlets, but didn't trigger either the two white or the big black circuit breakers, but something insisde the unit. The LCD screen froze on the first,  outside voltage screen, and it stayed frozen even when I pulled out the input plug and flicked the black circuit breaker off. This stayed the same all night even disconnected from the wall. This AM I opened the case, dsiconnected the battery circuit for a few seconds then closed the unit again and it functioned perfectly. There must have been an over wattage problem but why weould that do something to the internal electronics rather than pop a breaker.  Will have to see if there's any sound change to the unit tonight.

Bill
12-27-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 976
Post ID: 17593
Reply to: 17591
Chernobyl Black Forest
fiogf49gjkf0d
 steverino wrote:
Sorry for the potentially ignorant question since I do not yet own one. Can't you remove the battery pack from the unit and see what the sound is like? According to the Pure Power web site the battery packs are optional so I would think the unit's recharger would be inoperative in such circumstances. Based on your and other comments I wouldn't even buy the battery pack.

It is not accurate. The PP unit has own battery in it and this is what is being referred as “battery”. The battery packs are optional and they are external. PP might operate without the internal battery; I think there is an internal switch for it. I never tried as I think the presence of battery is VERY good as it acts a super good buffer. If you remove the battery then what do you think will be powering the inverter - the very same battery charger.

 steverino wrote:
Why are recharging circuits even located within the PP chassis but instead part of a battery pack chassis connected by a cable and toggle switch or something? This is the problem with these audio manufacturers. They constantly add bells and whistles and then stuff them in the same case.At least if they would put them in a separate optional box their side effects might be more muted. Every non essential circuit should be put somewhere separate.

I do not know if I agree with it. The charging circuits in those regenerators are not so simple and you think and they are integrated with the whole logic of the unit. To be in the same chassis is fine but they for sure need to be well isolated from other parts of regenerator. I need to notes that those class D regenerators act like nuclear reactors inside. When I had my magnetic and EMI probes running with open PP2000 cover then the probes showed me that I was in the middle of Chernobyl Black Forest. I think the PP3000  even more poisoning....


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 977
Post ID: 17594
Reply to: 2931
Ambient field conditioner?
fiogf49gjkf0d

Did anybody ever dealt with it?

http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
HDTT
Posts 17
Joined on 02-10-2008

Post #: 978
Post ID: 17595
Reply to: 17594
Did anybody ever dealt with it?
fiogf49gjkf0d
I'm also very interested in this also but can't find anyone that as used it.
Also if anyone has used there Power Cables would like to know what they think.

12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
steverino
Posts 367
Joined on 05-23-2009

Post #: 979
Post ID: 17596
Reply to: 17594
Sounds vaguely like shakti stones
fiogf49gjkf0d
I have heard of this but was rather suspicious simply because they are also marketing digital cables "which make digital sound like analogue" Where have we heard that before? What I read sounded not that different from the supposed operation and effect of Shakti Stones although I could be missing something. I have seen nothing  concrete about it other than a few blog reviews by individuals in the far East. I would never rule something out I haven't heard but I didn't see enough to want to be the guinea pig on this.
12-28-2011 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 980
Post ID: 17597
Reply to: 17584
Responses on AC Polarity
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
 clarkjohnsen wrote:
It does not take care of itself (what does?) and following the code doesn't get you there either…. Indeed, it is current leakage... but measured by the difference in potential.
Clark, you a bit simplistic understand the the notion of AC polarity.
 
CJ: Good to know.

If you have one individual component in audio system then the AC polarity is matter and you can get it by measure the potential between one neutral and ground and then compare it with reversal connection. However if you have 3, 35 or 135 AC power-using components in system then the AC polarity of individual component need to be set in the same way.

CJ: So far, so good.

If all components are made by the electrical code (and in 99.99% of cases they are) then you will not have situation that one component AC polarity screw another.
 
CJ: This is where you veer off course. The AC polarity under discussion (anyway by myself) does not concern code -- that is, the hot/neutral/ground alignment. Instead it's an internal aspect, not under the control of any code or convention.

I NEVER saw a production component that has reversed AC polarity.

CJ: Then you haven't looked close enough.

I hear that some of them do but I never saw it myself.
 
CJ: Generally speaking, half of them do -- minus those that exhibit no such measurable characteristic at all.

From what I saw your current leakage always was smaller in the side that complied with code.
 
CJ: Internally, again, no code applies. Take the power transformer's secondary leads: what convention instructs a manufacturer which side to use as hot? None!

If you begin to flip individual component then the question that you face: do you need to measure the components individual or in assembly into the system. In non symmetrical systems there is no true answer to it. 

CJ: All explained in The Wood Effect, and other places. 

c
 
The Cat
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