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Home » Analog Playback» The last phonocorrector: “End of Life" Phonostage (311 posts, 15 pages)

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	Target	Threads for related reading	Most recent post in related threads	Forum	Replies	Views	Started
»	New	Where are our good phonostages?..	Omnigon Tubes...	Analog Playback Forum	61	665441	05-31-2004
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»	New	How to run MM-type cartridge into MC phonostage?..	Quite interesting....	Analog Playback Forum	6	67371	11-13-2011
»	New	The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT...	The tales of two phonostages: Allnic and 834PT....	Analog Playback Forum	0	23388	12-21-2011

09-01-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	121
Post ID:	16917
Reply to:	16916

Miscelanea

Romy the Cat wrote:
1) Be very careful with use Halco resistors. They were very good 15 years back but they turned south very aggressively. I bought a party of Halco in 2005 and I forced myself to trashed them as they were very noisy. You do not use then in critical location, still I would be very watchful with them.

Ok, thank you. Actualy I have one of them at the critical location: the temporary cart load resistor, but will remove it
(perhaps there will be no load resistor even, we'll see). The grid bias resistor is also quite critical, but getting a 2M
resistor is not that easy to get.

Romy the Cat wrote:
2) I do not know about the SS stabilizers in filament supply. Why do you need them? Chokes stabilize current well and if you have some voltage jump then .1-.-2V on filament would not do any deferments. None of the stabilizers that I heard sound as good as no stabilizers. I have made a very good tube and ultra fast stabilizers on tube but it was not as good as no stabilizers. I truly do not see use of them if they are not necessary.

It was more of a capriccio. I've read good things about constant current heating from people like Loesch ect.
Their role is rather to precisely stabilize heater conditions and filter some HF (as well as the audio signal) trash.
Something big mega uF caps and big iron chokes would have problems in doing.
My I ask if the stabilizers you've made and tried
were constant current or more common constant voltage. There seem to be a critical difference between them,
with the former beeing supposedly far superior--like AC heating but without hum and line trash issues.
But I agree, at this moment I cannot defend the choice more than that.

Romy the Cat wrote:
3) The common mode filter you have at the PS’s input- why do you use them? They do eat some dynamics. As many time I removed them from all imaginary components as many time I witnessed better sound.

Ok, got it. Do you also suggest getting rid of the chokes at the power entry?

Romy the Cat wrote:
4) The values of the air caps. Stick to 330p and 110pF BUT it would be depends from your mounting of the caps, the assembly techniques and so on. Do not be afraid if you need to change the values for +/- 5%-10% in YOUR case. What you need to do. After you will be done, take YOUR cartridge with your typical load for that cartridge and play frequency sweep record into a RTA with resolution of .25dB. Then adjust the value of your caps. You might use a tested inverted RIAA filter and run the sweep from CD player. I still fill that you will end up with 330/110pF but it might be 335pF and 105pF as well.

I've just put the nominal values of the parts. All the tuning is still in front of me.

Thank you for the comments, Romy.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

09-01-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	122
Post ID:	16918
Reply to:	16917

I am surprised.

N-set wrote:
Do you also suggest getting rid of the chokes at the power entry?

I am surprised that you ask those questions. Who cares what I, you or somebody else think or suggest. You have the input filters in please, when the unit will be fully operational and installed in the system then it will take a few minute to disconnect the line power filter and to run it without filter. You will be able very easily make your own mind about the effectiveness of those devises to Sound. I have no idea what power lines you have, what power devises you used, what electricity in your country and in your specific part of the town, and I have no knowledge how your given power filter match the load. What kind blind suggestion you expect from me or anyone if it will take a few second to make up your own conclusion?

The caT

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-02-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	123
Post ID:	16919
Reply to:	16918

Don't be

This question had a second bottom so to say. In reality I was not seeking any suggestion: crocodile clip
ended leads and the chokes are bybassed in few seconds on the fly.
Ripping the filters of would be another few minutes. I do have some spirit of an empirist.
Rather I was gathering info, trying to visualize what electricity/PS does in particular cases, so yes your
or anybody's else experience would have some value for me, contrary to what you think.
You always repeat that you do not listen to the power supply thanks to your "isolating" PS philosophy.
This is a super attractive thing worth all the blood, sweat and tears! But then at the same time some disturbing notes come that
a CM filter in the power line may affects dynamics. How can it be? Does it mean that in the reality
the signal penetrates that deep to the power line? Otherwise how can signal feel a CM choke in the
line? So the PS is not truly isolating? If so, perhaps one hears it's other parts and we are back to the anal rituals of
sound shaping by PS choke insulation, diode brand, etc? Sorry for sounding a bit like a talmudist, too many questions.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

09-02-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	124
Post ID:	16920
Reply to:	16919

It is not about power supply.

N-set wrote:

You always repeat that you do not listen to the power supply thanks to your "isolating" PS philosophy.
This is a super attractive thing worth all the blood, sweat and tears! But then at the same time some disturbing notes come that
a CM filter in the power line may affects dynamics. How can it be? Does it mean that in the reality
the signal penetrates that deep to the power line? Otherwise how can signal feel a CM choke in the
line? So the PS is not truly isolating? If so, perhaps one hears it's other parts and we are back to the anal rituals of
sound shaping by PS choke insulation, diode brand, etc? Sorry for sounding a bit like a talmudist, too many questions.

It is not about power supply but about electricity in mains. To me PS starts from primary of transformer but the EMI filters sit before it. Thos filters are usually a combination of common mode and differential filter. The last one have capacitors that go from not and neutral to ground. My assumption that those caps do the typical damage the caps do on AC like of wall electricity. Make an experiment. Take a 5-10uF cap (any cap) and shunt primary of any audio devise. Juts stick it into the power outlet where a playback is connected. You will have lost of dynamics and worsening of very lower bass. Try it. There is absolutely no rational explanation of it but it is what it is. I might propose that the caps in RFI/EMI filters damage sound. I might also propose that disrespect to the filter load might be something that compromises sound (if you look in the math of those filters then you see that it cannot be used a generic filter from the shelf but the constriction the filter need to be optimize to the very specific current that the load draws – practically no one does it unless then built discrete filter from scratch). The reality is that I don’t know the true reason but I know that by disconnecting the filters from most of the electronics I used I did get sonic benefits. Would it be the same in your case? I have no idea. If you use an audio component that I know in my region then I would be able to say with high confidence if you mast to bypass the EMI filter in your specific component. In your case I have no idea nether about your electronics, or about your electricity, or about your listening objectives. I do not need to know all of this but I do know that it will take for you a few minutes to look into the RFI/EMI filters yourself. I would like to feel that this site is not about advise(s) in audio (fucking English: the word “advise” must have some kind of plural form!) but rather it is about discovering own common sense in audio. You, yourself shorting your own RFI/EMI filter is what I call "common sense" in audio. All the rest is just a full of crap.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-02-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	125
Post ID:	16921
Reply to:	16920

EMI/RFI madness

(feel free to re/move this post to the electricity thread)
As the power supply I'd regard everything from the power generator in the power plant down to the actual load.
Why the power transformer should be the cutting line?
I do hear your voice clearly re "common sense". What my stupid brain refuses to understand however
is how comes that the rectifiers, chokes, and other PS crap is invisible but a stupid 5u cap in the main line
does make a difference? If the signal feels it it means the load is not truly isolated for whatever reason?
Or am I a complete idiot (very probable)? I don't expect concrete answers, I'm just wondering loud.
BTW I did not of course connect the earth of the filters exactly to avoid those caps from lines to earth.
I also tried to look at the filter chcracteristics, but I'd rather look into tarot cards...

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

09-02-2011

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	126
Post ID:	16923
Reply to:	16921

Drinking in Modulation

The annoying thing, if you think about it, is that the gain stage only "modulates" the PS. And, no, no way is any kind of line conditioning proof against powerline nasties. In fact, the effing conditioners all have their own "effects". This is why half a milion hits on the "Electricity" thread.

Best regards,
Paul S

09-02-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	127
Post ID:	16924
Reply to:	16921

The stupid 5uF cap on AC side

N-set wrote:
(feel free to re/move this post to the electricity thread)
As the power supply I'd regard everything from the power generator in the power plant down to the actual load.
Why the power transformer should be the cutting line?
I do hear your voice clearly re "common sense". What my stupid brain refuses to understand however
is how comes that the rectifiers, chokes, and other PS crap is invisible but a stupid 5u cap in the main line
does make a difference? If the signal feels it it means the load is not truly isolated for whatever reason?
Or am I a complete idiot (very probable)? I don't expect concrete answers, I'm just wondering loud.
BTW I did not of course connect the earth of the filters exactly to avoid those caps from lines to earth.
I also tried to look at the filter chcracteristics, but I'd rather look into tarot cards...

I do not say that rectifiers, chokes, and other PS crap are invisible. We do not have ways to abstract tier visibility out of experiments. We can use other rectifiers, chokes, and other PS craps but we can’t not drive PS without them. The last filtering caps do minimize the difference between rectifiers, chokes, and filtering craps. Otherwise you can use your 300B amps with typical 8uF of filtering crap in B+ and then writhe long posts at DIYaudio.com site about different lamination of your choke if different tube socket on your rectifier “dramatically” changes the sound of your amp.
The stupid 5uF cap on primary is very different than anything else. The rectifiers, chokes, and caps of PS are DC polarized. They deal with ripples but the dialectics are charge with DC. A cap in put AC has no biased dielectric and as a result all dielectrics are vibrating (they are dielectrics but they are partially chargeable) and smear the termination of transmission line. I do not insist that that is THE reason but this is the ONLY explanation I have. I do not know why by caps on AC side do not work. Take an air or vacuum cap with no dielectric and you will not have problem with sound on AC side. I do not really dig the reason for all of it as it truly not really fascinates me. I did discover that cap on AC side is problem and I use this knowledge, rather then explaining it. Feel free to conduct your own experiment and find the explanation of the results.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-03-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	128
Post ID:	16928
Reply to:	16924

Finito

Romy the Cat wrote:
A cap in put AC has no biased dielectric and as a result all dielectrics are vibrating (they are dielectrics but they are partially chargeable) and smear the termination of transmission line.

Hm...If taken outside the context, I'd swear we are talking about some critical cap in a feedback loop.
Looking forward to experiment myself.
Paul--you are 100% right re mode of thinking about a gain stage!

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

09-03-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	129
Post ID:	16929
Reply to:	16928

It is only partially outside the context.

N-set wrote:

Hm...If taken outside the context, I'd swear we are talking about some critical cap in a feedback loop.

The reality is that the subject of a cap on primary of transformer is very much in context of my phonocorrector. One of the main premises of my phonocorrector is the use caps with no dielectric in the application where there is no DC biasing in the capacitor. Ironically the use in phonocorrector feedback or the use on the primary of transformer the caps serve in the very identical conditions end exposed to the very same problems ....

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-04-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	130
Post ID:	16942
Reply to:	16916

A corrector with an EQ controll

Romy the Cat wrote:

The real wet dream of mine, something that I would like to have but never went for is to have in the axis of the air caps a high precision step motor and a remote control that would allow me to modify the phono equalization based upon the given label, vintage and pressing. I would like to note that it would be absolutely problem free EQ, I just never had a chance to do…

There is an EMT unit (I'm not in the EMT fanclub, just found it by chance)
with a control (not remote however) of the EQ:

http://www.emt-studiotechnik.de/JPA66%20E.htm

Costs a fortune, what else one could expect from the house, and no idea how it sounds.
Actually in my assembly I'd have a space to put small motors.

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

09-04-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	131
Post ID:	16943
Reply to:	16942

There is EQ control and there are multiple curves.

N-set wrote:
There is an EMT unit (I'm not in the EMT fanclub, just found it by chance)
with a control (not remote however) of the EQ:

http://www.emt-studiotechnik.de/JPA66%20E.htm

Costs a fortune, what else one could expect from the house, and no idea how it sounds.
Actually in my assembly I'd have a space to put small motors.

There are number if phono-correctors that implement multiple EQ curves, the friendlier is probably is AMR PH-77. However, my feeling is that multiple EQ curves is not necessary right solutions, or at least the solution that I would like to have. You see, there are dozens of curves and in 50s and 60s different labels used all imaginary curves, not to mention that they do not very tightly follow the specifications of driven curve. I do not even mention that many recordings were recorded with no proper frequency balance. So, all of it EQ curves indiscrimination in my mind set the satiation that use of a specific fixed curve not really useful. I would rather prefer to have a regular remote-controlled graphic equalizer and I would be able by hearing to set proper balance 100s times better and faster than by guessing the curve or by any other means. Of cause, the graphic equalizers are no used in level of audio that I implied but we do have 2-band curve equalizer in phonostage anyhow, so why do not make the phonostage EQ naturally adjustable? The “naturally” is the key word in this as the implementation of slightly different sloped shall not bring any new EQ efforts.

Rgs, Romy the Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

09-04-2011

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	132
Post ID:	16944
Reply to:	16942

Corresponding to ?

Repeatable turnover options would be the bomb, given that: one starts with a good idea of which curve should be used for a given "label"; there is a good way to keep track of where the thing is set, relatively speaking.

If twiddling aircap vanes, any relays, servos, etc. should be properly geared (low...), with a very accurate vernier and no lag or "over-run", and they should be kept out of the electrical matrix.

Remote or no, I do not see this as useful for tuning on-the-fly unless one is switching between label years, or the like, and in this case it would probably be best to use VR, even hard switching. Again, the switch itself looms large in this sort of loop. With hard, on-the-fly switching, a null-mute would be appreciated, and maybe even necessary.

My TAP pre-amp uses industrial computer relays; very reliable, dead quiet, and out of the loop, with separate PS.

Paul S

10-01-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	133
Post ID:	17110
Reply to:	5856

A German guy take on 834PT.

http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/Leserbriefe/Martin-Ruppel-Phonoamp/MRuppel-Phonoamp.htm

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

10-02-2011

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	134
Post ID:	17111
Reply to:	17110

Qualitat

First project?!?

Another case where it sounds good just looking at it!

Paul S

11-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	135
Post ID:	17369
Reply to:	5856

The baby is sick

I play a lot of LP recently and last night I noted that sound was quite bad. It was like a bad electricity day only atop of it sound has some kind of odd digitalization atop of everything. Of course I was blaming the PurePower 3000 but then I realized that my FM and my digital sounded fine. My mono arm loaded into another phonostage was fine but both of my stereo arms: reference and daily arms were horrible. In fact I did not recognize that reference arm was bad as well and I was fighting with my daily arm. I did some modification on it and I thigh that was the reason. Apparently it was not as my reference arm that I did not touch sounded in the very same way.

So, I think my “End of Life Phonostage” has died. There is nothing in there that might die and I did not touch it sine I move but something is wrong in there. The tubes died. I use the same tubes for 12 year in this phonostage, I did not test then for 5-6 year but 12AX7 shall not die suddenly like this. I did have fine sound 2 days back, it shell not take foe this tine one day to die. Anyhow, this requires investigations there is something very wrong with this phonostage now.

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-15-2011

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Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,658
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #:	136
Post ID:	17370
Reply to:	17369

Last Cleaning?

Sometimes cleaning the pin-and-socket connections will breathe new life into a "fading" tube. LIkewise, RCA jacks and un-soldered ground connections, not to mention cartridge pins. I keep saying I will make up and keep a log, but I haven't done it yet. The closest I've gotten to maintenance logging so far is little "put in use date" labels I stick near the tubes.

Best regards,
Paul S

11-15-2011

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N-set
Gdansk, Poland
Posts 617
Joined on 01-07-2006

Post #:	137
Post ID:	17371
Reply to:	17369

Mine too...

...but for a different reason.
After lots of traveling I'm finally back and continue my long lasting assault on 834.
Pieter kept his word and the nano core transformers (both his MkII and a experimental pair
on my yet bigger cores) are here. I removed all Holcos (finding a dale 2M resistor was a
challenge, allied has it RN55D version) and tried wiring in the transformers...the layout is bad, I don't like it
as the signal runs are long:

I also get a horrible hum....
Both 50Hz and 100Hz and much more, up to few kHz. No idea what's that.
Shorting the output of transformers
does bring the hum to normality (almost doesn't exist) in one channel, but not in the other.
Closing the signal box doesn't seem to help.
Sleepless nights are awaiting me...

Cheers,
Nset

Cheers,
Jarek
STACORE

11-15-2011

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Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	138
Post ID:	17372
Reply to:	17371

To fight with hum in phonostages is fan.

Yes, the layout kind of not optimum. You might try to lay the transformers sidewise and to make the RCA atop, above the transformers. Still, I hope you understand that your hum has very little to do with layout. Properly grounded unit shell has no noise in open incisures. You need to play with grounds. I usually use by-pass ground techniques – never failed on me. One you find a proper grounding then whatever you will do with the corrector will produce no noise. BTW, I did ask anybody to mane the uploaded images identifiable, so please….

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-15-2011

Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree

Romy the Cat

Boston, MA
Posts 10,159
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #:	139
Post ID:	17373
Reply to:	17369

What the hell is going on!!!

Romy the Cat wrote:
I play a lot of LP recently and last night I noted that sound was quite bad. It was like a bad electricity day only atop of it sound has some kind of odd digitalization atop of everything. Of course I was blaming the PurePower 3000 but then I realized that my FM and my digital sounded fine. My mono arm loaded into another phonostage was fine but both of my stereo arms: reference and daily arms were horrible. In fact I did not recognize that reference arm was bad as well and I was fighting with my daily arm. I did some modification on it and I thigh that was the reason. Apparently it was not as my reference arm that I did not touch sounded in the very same way.

So, I think my “End of Life Phonostage” has died. There is nothing in there that might die and I did not touch it sine I move but something is wrong in there. The tubes died. I use the same tubes for 12 year in this phonostage, I did not test then for 5-6 year but 12AX7 shall not die suddenly like this. I did have fine sound 2 days back, it shell not take foe this tine one day to die. Anyhow, this requires investigations there is something very wrong with this phonostage now.

I can’t not find any other words then “what the fuck”. Two day back it was fine and then all of the sudden this crap is coming from two of my stereo arms! There is nothing in my phonostage that can die like this. I know the sound of dead 12AX7 – it is not it. The sound I have has full body with full LF but with some kind withering in upper MF. The higher it goes the more it breaks itself apart. It is not too huge but it is there and I hate it. Whoever heard my playback know that it goes up in frequency and amplitude there is no event – it very smooth, natural and non obtrusive. Now at higher it goes and as louder it gets it has more and more almost some kind of mechanical resonances overlying over sound. Dead tubes would not be doing it.

I did check everything in phonostage and everything measurable in there is perfect. The tubes are fine. Nevertheless, I did replace the tubes with no effects. Might be the transformer got burned by some kind of stray solar wind? I have no idea what to think. CD, moro arm, tuners and even tape machine sound fine but the arms connected to this phonostage are no good. Now, I need to recall all even over the last 2 days and see what the hell went wrong. I cooked pork shops on Saturdays, is it possible that God punishes me?

The Cat

"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche

11-16-2011

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rogier
Posts 13
Joined on 11-16-2006

Post #:	140
Post ID:	17374
Reply to:	17373

...air-caps dirty....

Romy,

It could be dirt (dust) in the aircaps..

Friendly regards, rogier

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