tuyen wrote:

When i change the cutoff of the 505tt to 200hz and 250hz, I experience that same 'hole' you mention about.  Hence why I was questioning if it is the 160hz le'clech horn causing this and if using the goto s150 horn with it's different horn profile would change it (eg. playing down to 200hz with a first order slope as recommended??).   I guess from your experiences, it doesn't.. Please note, I don't have any measuring tools though so I'm really just going by my ear which is quite pointless in terms of setting it up properly.  Will eventually get around to it.

Tuyen, you will not get around it. You need to understand that using phrases 200hz, 250hz, 160hz and so on without having very firm understanding what you are talking is absolutely foolish. Only the people who have a lot of experience with listening and measuring, listening and measuring, listening and measuring, the proper measuring I have to say and who interpreted and correlated results of listening and measuring, only those people can make comments frequency and amplitude that have any meaning. If you never did any rudimental measurement of your playback and I presume never did it with any other playback than what point of reference you use when you say Hz or dB? Let face it if you use quantization of any sort then you have to have some kind of idea what the coordinate system of quantization would be. Otherwise - it all absolutely pointless. I understand that you would like to be consistent with a type casting of a typical Goto user: to be clueless. Still, it looks like you’ve have made a number of steps to more sensible direction. So, get yourself RTA – it will be the very next and very mandatory step.

Kcct82 wrote:

Hi Romy, I've confirmed through Goto's Japanese dealer that a drop between 200-400hz is normal for 505TT, their suggestion was to double up on drivers or buy the more expensive versions... Looking at the measurements the 505TT is good for 400-1800hz only. Sound wise it is ultra clear and dynamic, I do miss that kick in brass instruments and snare drum rim shots. I'm deciding whether I should turn my midbass horn 90 degrees against the side wall and setup a 4 horn vertical rack more towards the middle of the room.

Yep, you have consulted with Goto's dealer – as he has any idea what he is talking about. Wishfully thinking! Did you even see any dealer who does? The 505TT driver as I understand was the WE-555 imitation.  Those small thought drivers can go down to 100hz and can give you the brass’ kick that you are looking for. However, the WE-555- like driver did it loaded in very long horn with over 9dB of horn gain. Goto S150 horn that you use I think a replica of WE-6A or WE-11A horns. However the 555 drive was able to go down to more or less 100 only in 13A, 16A and 17A horns. Look at the picture of the 11A horn and 17A hoe and you will see that they are in of VERY different length and mouths size.

http://www.moviemice.com/we/horns/index.php

So, you still can push your 505TT down but it would require a very different type of horn then what Goto offer with S150. If you go to this direction then you will face a few factors. The 505TT driver itself might be not good for using it so low. The type of bass that you have with such a long horn and suck high level of horn gain will be different, I will be no so clean and much prone to honk then you would get from more conventional loading. You will also find impossible to time-integrate this design idea with the rest of the system. So, I wonder why you are trying to push your 505TT with S150 horn down. Would it be more rational to have you upperbass horn to run a bit higher? If you look to fill the 200-400Hz then it is much more convenient to do with low pass filter of your upperbass horn.

tuyen wrote:

Is there any chance of sharing the measurements?    I agree with the your comment regarding the sound of them. Although in saying that, I have managed to only listen to a few other different compression drivers so far.   Is there somewhere I can find out more about your bass horn?  Is it much of an improvement over your bass reflex boxes you were using before?    I want to try building a similar front loaded horn for the 15" woofers one day..

Tuyen, I wonder what the measurements of others can do to you? I do not mean to be a jerk about it - I am serious. Yes, conductor can read the score and hear how it sounds. A person who did a lot of own measurements and has an understanding how different measurements correlate to what he/she hear can look at some of measurements and to a degree to predict not how the system sound but if the system has own issues. The whole point is to have the measurements, see the problem in the measurements, to hear how this problem manifests itself; then to correct of the problem by one way or other and see and hear the result. Without doing it many times you do not have a definition of what is acceptable and not acceptable in measurements.

Also, Tuyen, you need to understand that if we are taking about 200Hx then we are taking only about 50% of pressure that is coming from the driver and horn. The room aberration is very high at those frequencies and if it used creatively and knowledgeably then it can substantial change many things:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=4421

Sure, you fee to do whatever you wish but again, before committing your with mid or upper-bass horns do yourself a favor – get RTA, learn how to use it, get your current setup to sound properly, getting the best your current installation can push out itself. Only then begin to think about change or modification. To make your setup to sound as it has to be shall take for you a year or so. Do not make any new acquisitions until you will be able to get out your current setup what is able to do. I know it sounds NOW like foolishness to you but it will come to you….

twogoodears wrote:

I'm following with interest the thread and must say that I'm baffled: Goto's "instructions" are - SIMPLY said - a mix between non-existent and wrong... I love what Goto's did in my system... BUT I think I did more with "my own" care, "my own" taste, "my own" pushing the jump-bar ahead, being curious and never content of the "ownership", per se, BUT playing as a cook with a kitchen table full of great ingredients... a starting point to prepare a nice dish. An home grown tomato can be as tasty and classy as a gourmet, super-expensive plate and... let me say: Goto or whatever are - ALWAYS - a starting point and there's absolutely no guaranty of successful results, period. Me too, four years ago, I was (wrongly) feeling me as arrived at the harbour... i.e. - hey, I own Goto... BUT, I learned, it was the beginning of a trip, not yet finished: RTA, new studio and speakers positioning, diaphragms alignment, digital time alignement and room correction... My best luck was knowing of and meeting Franz Hinterlehner from Austria, a dedicated, no frills, knowledged and super-serious tech-head, who - as Roman pointed out - is able to properly measure and talk about hertz and decibels and related... not as a pub-chatting but finalized to a musically coherent and satisfying result. Like when a cook looks at the ingredients and the plate isn't ready, yet... the same a LOT OF attention and knowledge is needed. The "Goto's instructions" made me deluged, almost angry... Mingsu and every Goto user around simply repeated a dogma - parrot-like - since the times of "Royal Sound/Goto", back in the '70s.. 1st order/2nd order and "those" foolish frequencies cut-offs... BLAME on them! Franz and myself - while working at my system - discovered mixed, bad and extremely good, things, while dealing with my Gotorama: the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-)) or 400 hz with a.m. crossover and cut-off frequencies... it's - in my (small) room -  250 hz 4th order low pass and 1200 high-pass 1st order... and the distortion is an AWESOME 0,06% (!!!) at 1000 hz, with 112,8 db/W/m sensitivity, so - unbelivable, and VERY near to specs... also it's pure BS "that" 5000 hz for the poor SG-16TT... my own SG-160BL is - after careful measuring and computer rendition and fiddling, crossed at 7000 (1st order) with S-600/SG-370DX-BL... at 5000 hz there was a deeeep valley and a lot of TacT's digital  correction needed... ... but, hey... it's my system, room, tastes and ears! I (now) absolutely know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tune a three or a four ways system - any make - by ear and that, in this VERY case, DIYing can be a very boring, unsatisfying and extremely expensive way to go... I'm sincerely glad "we" (someway) all contributed to loudly say - "The Kings are Naked!" - i.e. as Mingsu would say;-) - a Lamborghini doesn't make a Schumacher, a Goto (or Vitavox or ALE or WE or Kanno or G.I.P.) doesn't make - per se - a great system... a piled bunch of drivers on a bass box isn't a top system (also my fault for years...): it's someway organized, maybe pleasant, "noise"- BUT not shivers-making "music"... same happens when I press " bypass" push-button on TacT's remote... "What?!?! I was listening to this shit?" Strangely, it reminds when - a couple of years ago - I had some serious kidneys disease... ONLY when I was cured and out of the hospital, I understood how bad I was, before... it's quite elusive and dangerous stuff: audio-wise, I suggest to do not buy or sell anything 'til you'll do your homeworks (RTA and the like) or - if technically flawed like yours truly - to find your personal "Franz Hinterlehner"... I sincerely wish you the last evenience. Tuyen;-)

MINGSU wrote:

I think you pointed out correctly.  GOTO sell speaker driver and not a system - because it is impossible to pre-config a multi-horn system to fit every buyer's room and sound taste. As a business, I offer the full service of installation and setup tailor to each buyer's room and sound taste.  The cost is high but save you years of trial and error - some will say that suck out all of the fun but for others it is just driving faster to finish line.....

Romy the Cat wrote:

twogoodears wrote: I'm following with interest the thread and must say that I'm baffled: Goto's "instructions" are - SIMPLY said - a mix between non-existent and wrong... I love what Goto's did in my system... BUT I think I did more with "my own" care, "my own" taste, "my own" pushing the jump-bar ahead, being curious and never content of the "ownership", per se, BUT playing as a cook with a kitchen table full of great ingredients... a starting point to prepare a nice dish. An home grown tomato can be as tasty and classy as a gourmet, super-expensive plate and... let me say: Goto or whatever are - ALWAYS - a starting point and there's absolutely no guaranty of successful results, period. Me too, four years ago, I was (wrongly) feeling me as arrived at the harbour... i.e. - hey, I own Goto... BUT, I learned, it was the beginning of a trip, not yet finished: RTA, new studio and speakers positioning, diaphragms alignment, digital time alignement and room correction... My best luck was knowing of and meeting Franz Hinterlehner from Austria, a dedicated, no frills, knowledged and super-serious tech-head, who - as Roman pointed out - is able to properly measure and talk about hertz and decibels and related... not as a pub-chatting but finalized to a musically coherent and satisfying result. Like when a cook looks at the ingredients and the plate isn't ready, yet... the same a LOT OF attention and knowledge is needed. The "Goto's instructions" made me deluged, almost angry... Mingsu and every Goto user around simply repeated a dogma - parrot-like - since the times of "Royal Sound/Goto", back in the '70s.. 1st order/2nd order and "those" foolish frequencies cut-offs... BLAME on them! Franz and myself - while working at my system - discovered mixed, bad and extremely good, things, while dealing with my Gotorama: the SG-570BL with S-150 horn mid-low isn't good between 100 or 150 (the horn name;-)) or 400 hz with a.m. crossover and cut-off frequencies... it's - in my (small) room -  250 hz 4th order low pass and 1200 high-pass 1st order... and the distortion is an AWESOME 0,06% (!!!) at 1000 hz, with 112,8 db/W/m sensitivity, so - unbelivable, and VERY near to specs... also it's pure BS "that" 5000 hz for the poor SG-16TT... my own SG-160BL is - after careful measuring and computer rendition and fiddling, crossed at 7000 (1st order) with S-600/SG-370DX-BL... at 5000 hz there was a deeeep valley and a lot of TacT's digital  correction needed... ... but, hey... it's my system, room, tastes and ears! I (now) absolutely know that it's virtually IMPOSSIBLE to tune a three or a four ways system - any make - by ear and that, in this VERY case, DIYing can be a very boring, unsatisfying and extremely expensive way to go... I'm sincerely glad "we" (someway) all contributed to loudly say - "The Kings are Naked!" - i.e. as Mingsu would say;-) - a Lamborghini doesn't make a Schumacher, a Goto (or Vitavox or ALE or WE or Kanno or G.I.P.) doesn't make - per se - a great system... a piled bunch of drivers on a bass box isn't a top system (also my fault for years...): it's someway organized, maybe pleasant, "noise"- BUT not shivers-making "music"... same happens when I press " bypass" push-button on TacT's remote... "What?!?! I was listening to this shit?" Strangely, it reminds when - a couple of years ago - I had some serious kidneys disease... ONLY when I was cured and out of the hospital, I understood how bad I was, before... it's quite elusive and dangerous stuff: audio-wise, I suggest to do not buy or sell anything 'til you'll do your homeworks (RTA and the like) or - if technically flawed like yours truly - to find your personal "Franz Hinterlehner"... I sincerely wish you the last evenience. Tuyen;-) Great post, Stefano. What I would like to add is that the division of audio thing on Kings and Peasant is a purely artificial invention of from people who do audio trade and it is commonly known that those people are no blessed with understanding of royalty. Again, it is very much not ageist of Goto or any other drives. It is against the idiocy that in the eyes of a common typical Goto users substitute reality. It is like Tanaka San said: “Goto do not need to time align”. Any other driver need but Gotos do not and the green color of the drivers bends the rule of physics and common sense, not to mention the listening experience… The truth is that despite all that ignorant saliva dripping by some individuals around  Goto the true capacity, cons and prose of the Goto drivers are not yet been exposed. The Cat

Ok, since you people stop to drop the euphoric saliva around the Goto subject I think it would be worth to outline my interest in Goto.  Not only worth but I kind of feel an obligation. I feel that my site surprisingly has become a resource that has the most valuable information in English about Goto drivers. Ironically I do not even use Goto drivers but if you look at the sites where people do use them then you will see nothing more than idiocy expressed  - never made a secret that I am not satisfied with level of discussion that Goto people are able to support.  Feel free to read other sites and make your mind. I was trying in part to raise some issuers, like here for instance in my dialog with Summ:

http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=60.435

…but besides Summ that site figured German and Asian Goto dealers with whom to talk about sound is like to explain to cockroach a theory of general relativity. Anyhow, whay I wouls like to talk is not about the Goto drivers but about 3 very specific zone of interest that I have about Gotos.

1)      I do not care about Goto bass drivers, the people who understand my ideas about playback organization can easily figured out why. However, Goto has one very interesting driver SG146LD4. It is a compression driver with 4” exit and this driver might be very interesting candidate to try in upperbass horn. For sue it need to be modified to have resonance frequency match my upperbass horn and then it would be very interesting to see if it will be able to compete with a compression driver that I made from Fane Studio 8M. I do not know the outcome and I would not predict it.  I most likely never try it and it is too large project to assure the proper performance of the unknown Goto unit and it will ruin my current upperbass setting. I am not frustrated with my current upperbass to undertake this project. Still, I would be very interesting if someone with brain and ears would go to this rout and publish the results.

2)      It would be very interesting to try Goto SG-370 series drives in MF. Again, I am not sure that I would undertake this task as the task would imply a major investment of time and efforts. Nope the investment are no in the cost of the drivers. The street price of Goto MF driver in Japan is very compatible with the price of better JBL and TAD and at used market they sometime are sold for 1K pair. The cost does not come from the drivers but with the efforts to make the driver to sound in the way they do the best. IT take time, it takes amplification, modification of horns, loading and many other thing to assure that a given driver in context of given application does it’s best. I have no frustration with my current MF driver and I do not know if I go for this research if I have a free pair of Goto sitting in my room. I can predict that if I did then most likely the satiation will be very similar with my parley to electromagnets. There were very positive moments with electromagnets but there were negative. I did not find that the positive moments were so remarkable that they outweigh my desire to capitalize on the positive moments and to ruin what I have. I need to hear the truly mind-expending results from Goto in order to adopt it for experiments. I do not have this experience personally and very skeptical toward to the experience of others. Sure, I have an interest but if this interest will have a change to be satisfied I do not know.

3)      This is the very main subject to me: I do not know if Goto can do tone. In my hierarchy of values tone fly very high and I am a bit concerned if Gotos are tone-able. I did not know any single driver that it self-sufficient in tonal world.  I do not say that Goto is more or less capable in tone world then any other driver but faces it: we do not know where tone comes from in audio.  In my own playback I use tone-reach driver but even with it I did not find it sufficient and went for a very deliberate and very measured tonal injection. As a result my MF is very complex combination of my MF driver output, the Injection channel mix and the MF amp distortions. It is very complex but it is very potent. Would a single driver, regardless of the driver name, be able to introduce the demanded level of sonic character and tonal power with the same level of measured precisions? I do not know but I do know that with a single driver there is practically no way to moderate tone. As I said I do not know the tonal power of Goto, the GIP, ALE and I for sure do not see any interest in it among Goto users.

So, how I think my curiosity about Goto might be advanced?  I think sometime in future it might happen that an experience with Goto sound person would come to my listening room, hear the Sound that I have and  would point out the specific problems with my Sound and would explain to me how Gotos might or might not address it. 

There is a pair of Goto SG146 drivers at Japanese Yahoo:

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f105296325

….use a translation language of your chose to translate it to the language of your choose. They are Goto bass drives with 4” exit and they along with YL 1250 occasionally pop up on used market for $7-$8K. I am sure that now a Goto rep would jump in and begin to claim that they are old driver and in order to get the “fool magic of Goto” one need to by the cotemporary SG146 production. Idiosyncratically he will not be able to tell what is the difference between older production of SG146 and newer SG146 SG146LD. The reality I am pretty sure is that there is no such a thing as new and old production of Goto driver and there is no version or quietly control for those drivers. It is a small basement-based operation where “versions” come from what parts the suppliers send to them this time. They sell perhaps less than 10 drivers per year and they do not know how to listen then – so any conversations about Goto versions are pure fantasy.

Anyhow, here they are an opportunity for someone to experiment with Gotos for midbass horn. The 4” exit would make fine 50-80Hz horn, if someone has room to right align it (and it will be long horn) then it might be worth to play with it. I will not do it myself but if someone gets them then I do not mind to help to adopt them, if the person would share his observations about results.

MINGSU wrote:

You can hear a full 4 way GOTO in this event next month.  Come down, stop by, enjoy and judge yourself, in person.  http://www.capitalaudiofest.com/  July 8-10 in Rockville, MD.

It looks like out friend MINGSU did make the show and did demonstrate a new setup with his Goto drivers. I think this is very good move for Goto as by Mingsu’s efforts they will market not only individual drivers but the actual sonic results that might be accomplished in a complete inhalation.

The new system looks like have back-loaded dipole bass twin, looks like hyperbolic 150Hz horn channel, next channel looks like 300Hz horn and a tweeters. All drivers are from Goto, I presume the bass drivers Goto as well.

What I see good in this installation. It look like this time they made an efforts to time-align the channel – this is new for Goto setup and I think the credit goes to Mingsu or to whoever he hire to assisted him. Also, it is very seldom that always moronic Goto users have brain to locate upper MF and tweeter vertically, in the way how Mingsu’s setup has. Mostly Goto users pile up the upper channels horizontally that makes as much sense as to design a better anchor in order a ship to go faster.

As the criticism of this setup I would note a creaming absents of MF channel. With horn you can’t not hide what is going on and size of the channel need to be GRADUALLY increased. The gradualness of the channel’s size change is not a panacea and it itself do not assure anything but it for sure give very high flexibility to moderate output of individual channel and to shape proper sound for the given environment. In the setup that Mingsu present if you need to add more output at let say an octave un an down to 1000Hz then you have absolutely no control.

Another major thing that I do not like is the design of the frame hat holds their upperbass channel or whatever region it covers. For sure it must not be angled but it is not what I mean. What I mean that it looks and feels ugly and very much non-functional. It feels like chicken-wire crap that we do in our basements for prototype sake. I do not know if Mingsu market the individual drivers or the entire setup but if he willing to present the System then, please, spend some efforts and to design the horn frame appropriately. The horn frame is hugely underestimated ingredient of multi-horn system and most of the DIYers do not get it. A proper horn frame is very inexpensive but VERY expensive in design decisions.  In addition to design a proper frame has HUGE disciplining effect to system owner and allows reevaluating many aspects of multi-horn system. Mingsu, or whoever behind him, need for sure to redo the frame for this setup.

I have no idea how it sound and I hope Mingsu will share his observation about the Sound he was able to achieve.

The funny and poor Tuyen. It looks like another audio guy, as Russians says, “went over the hands”. The “went over the hands” is a very interesting Russian idiom that use very frequently apply to audio people. Years back it was once very deservingly applied toward to me. Thanks God, never again.

The meaning of “went over the hands” is hard to explain but I will give you an example. Pretend you are a person who has kindly problem and you go to doctor. The doctor convinces you that it is not kiddy but hart. The hart doctor makes you to believe that it is inflammation of your nose. The otorhinolaryngologist informs you that it is from rash on your foot. The Podiatric specialist tell you that you have brain tumor. The neurologist informs you that the problem from pain coming from your rotten tooth. The dentist tell you that it is not your tooth but your liver… and so on and so on and so on… As the result you have performered brain surgery, amputated leg, use artificial kindly, pulled off all your teeth and removed a half of your nose. You still have your pain in your left kindly however…

Russians call this situation “went over the hands” or the situation when a person has no sense of own identity of actions or objectives and just allowed himself to be used and manipulated in any imaginable way. How frequently it is happen in audio, in fact the entire audio industry is built to discover and to abuser those weak people.  The audio sales people actually sell to each other the contact information of people who are prone to “go over the hands”….

Anyhow, the reason I mention it all at Tuyen is unquestionably is “walking around the hands”. It looks like this “rhlauranna” drives him across the hands.  The “rhlauranna” look like a dealer from Germany. It looks like he is not a normal dealer with store, investment and so on but the new type “internet friend” type of the dealer, like the late Joe Roberts and the rest of them. Anyhow, I do not care what he does, whatever makes him happy, but I am truly laughing about Tuyen. The guy, without any own reasons, just got a few month back a new set of the drivers, new horns, new electronics. He did not mange to setup the system as now “rhlauranna” convince him that the only thing that can bring him happiness is that ridicules 20Hz horn and the Tuyen is in his run to get a new house to accommodate such a horn.  God, how Moronic people might be? In my estimation Tuyen with the playback he has now need a few years to understand what he is doing and how to get for his current playback what it shall/might yield. “rhlauranna” stuffs him with the idiocy of Goto rising star and Hiraga amps rising star, some kind of idiotic Killer Dac rising star and the poor Tuyen sucking it in as no tomorrow. Well, I am pretty much shire that it was the path of 95% of Goto users out there..

Good for “rhlauranna” BTW. When he retire and will not have interest to shepherd his Goto user he needs to sell his contact list to a young Audio Note rep and your will see audio-retards around the world will drop this Goto gear and install nice AN single driver boxes…

jessie.dazzle wrote:

Even if you don't agree with the design, there's some clever DIY going on here.