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10-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 581
Post ID: 14732
Reply to: 14729
2 Grounds per PP?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, even though code-conscious electricians install your special ground rod for you, they will still in all likelihood want to tie the neutral wires from your dedicated 30A lines back to the ground bus in the breaker box where they get their 30A feeds.  As I have mentioned before, if this is a sub-panel, you would be well served to keep neutral and ground wires seperate all the way to the service box/main ground bus. 

As you know, having separate earthing points for neutral and ground precludes the classic star grounding scheme, and ground loading can become quite compex as the system stacks up.  I wonder if your new hi-fi ground will have less resistance than your house main ground, and without knowing how your gear drains internally, I wonder how this will play out in terms of optimal routing.  What a luxury it would be to measure, pre-map and route all grounds against a pre-stacked system before so much as installing the system!  This is usually how serious recording studios do it, along with all-balanced lines; but I have only known of one home system that was pre-engineered in this way.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 582
Post ID: 14848
Reply to: 14523
A Ménage à trios with PP2000.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Debating the everlasting Leo Tolstoy’s question “How Much Land Does a Man Need?”  I wondering how many and what kind PP I would need. I am debating options:  to get two more PP200 or one more PP3000. I wonder if anyone used two separate PP200 for right and left channels amps and made comparing to both right and left amps running from the same PP2000. If anyone has this specific experience and able to filter out from own assessment the fact that PP2000 will be more loaded in one case then in other, then please, share with me your findings.

Ok, I got my two more PP2000, not I have 3 all together and I need to find how to use them. My little celebratory mood with PP2000 is much shorn live and my old PP2000 flying back today to Canada for fixing the problem with the “fuzziness”. The PurePower folks promised to do it fast so, she will be back…

I did not measure the new PP2000 yet, in fact I did not run the system from 3 PP2000 yet – I did not have time to amuse myself with audio last night. What however, I had last night was a sort of disappointment that I do not know how to rectify at this point.

The PP2000 use that I use almost for 2 years was one of the first new PP2000 that PurePower produced. It is not too noisy but it has indicated own presence in a room. So, planning for two more units to drive my two 6-ch Melquiadeses I thought to place the a pair of PP2000 in the basement directly under the PP2000 Melquiadeses.  To do so I made holes in the floor for power cables and accommodated the stands for PP2000 under the floor. I have my electrician to run dedicated 20A lines to the future locations of the  PP2000  in the basement. Furthermore I stressed PurePower to make a remote control turn on/off options on my units, presuming to turn the Melquiadeses by remote turning on the regenerators – each Melquiades will be plugged in own PP2000. So, I thought and planed for everything but I got screwed in a way. The two new PP2000s that arrived turned out to be practically silent in operation. Whatever noise then make they are even comparable in noise with my two years old PP2000. Looking at this silent operation I ask myself why I need to put them in the basement - the can perfectly sit in my room next to the power amps.

So, now, presuming that my current old PP2000 will be upgraded to the silent status I need to revise where I would like my regenerators to stay, revising the location of the holes in the floor and the location of my dedicated 20A lines. The new silent operation of PP2000 is certainly not a bad thing but it does screw up my plans how I thought to use them.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 583
Post ID: 14855
Reply to: 2931
Lawfully cheating with efficiency.
fiogf49gjkf0d
The Purepower state at their site that efficiency of the unit is 89-92% depending on load. I presume that they meant the power factor correction that need to be taking to the consideration. In my case my two 6-ch Melquiades run from two new PP2000. Melquiades are hugely inductive load so there is no phase lagging of current vs. voltage. How it affect power factor I have no idea – the power factor is a consent that I do not purely “get”.

Anyhow, the fully warmed Milq get 330W if stable draw. The PP2000 shadows for whatever reasons the 28% load – the PP2000 is generally clueless what it shows. The PP2000 sucks from the walls 415W that makes the PP2000 is a bit sub efficient 80% .

So, two PP2000 units will suck ~ 850W from the lines, I wonder is any way to cheat with this electricity by playing the power factor correction games. I know that in Europe are very popular small power correction devises that allowing the load to draw higher current but make the sensors that measure the cost of electricity do not spin and do not report it. Warn you that they are perfectly legal ways to save money and I do not call for tempering with electrical meters. The power correction saving is legal and I wonder if I can engage it before the PP2000 and if it has any worsening effect to sound.
The European guys, can you advise some 220V power correction stations, I think I will be able to accommodate them in US (in US we in fact have 220V, single phase in residential homes, juts just use a half).

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 584
Post ID: 14856
Reply to: 14855
If I'd known this before...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Sorry Romy I can't help you - I've never heard of this before. But I'm certainly tempted to explore further now...

(Incidentally, my new PP2000 will arrive tomorrow.)

Mani.
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 585
Post ID: 14857
Reply to: 14856
Beware of the PP2000 scam.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 manisandher wrote:
Sorry Romy I can't help you - I've never heard of this before. But I'm certainly tempted to explore further now...

(Incidentally, my new PP2000 will arrive tomorrow.)
You can Google the “Legally Slow Down Power Meter” and your will be a ton of it, not sure if all of it legal and not sure if all of it sane. 

So, you are getting PP2000? Do you know that what if you run WiFI in your home then you need to unplug your internet cable when you use PurePower? It is a little know “nuance” that PP2000 has inside a wireless network detector that scans the networks, connect to the one that you use and then expose your PC banking credentials to PurePower’s associates. The only way to deal with it is to cover the PP2000 with 2 sheets of aluminum foil, or even better 2 sheets of aluminum foil, then a half inch of a wool from a virgin sheep, and then another 2 sheets of copper foil. If you do so then the PP2000 scanner will be shielded from your WiFI. Otherwise make sure that you never login into any fanatical institution site while the PP2000 is in operation.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 586
Post ID: 14859
Reply to: 14857
WIFI protection
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, your advice is too late. Manishander has already logged into a "fanatical institution site", namely GoodSoundClub.com.




11-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 587
Post ID: 14861
Reply to: 14855
Efficiency and power factor
fiogf49gjkf0d
The PurePower 2000 claimed efficiency is in fact equal to or greater than 85%. Our 89% rating was published before we added the 2000 model so I will correct it immediately. The energy losses from efficiency are mostly expended in heat - and so cannot be retrieved from the utility.

The PurePower 2000 power factor, on the other hand, is equal to or greater than 95%.  With a 95% power factor an external power factor correction device - if perfect - could decrease the electric bill by no more than 5%.


11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 588
Post ID: 14945
Reply to: 14848
The electricity.
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Ok, I got my two more PP2000, not I have 3 all together and I need to find how to use them. My little celebratory mood with PP2000 is much shorn live and my old PP2000 flying back today to Canada for fixing the problem with the “fuzziness”. The PurePower folks promised to do it fast so, she will be back…

I did not measure the new PP2000 yet, in fact I did not run the system from 3 PP2000 yet – I did not have time to amuse myself with audio last night. What however, I had last night was a sort of disappointment that I do not know how to rectify at this point.

The PP2000 use that I use almost for 2 years was one of the first new PP2000 that PurePower produced. It is not too noisy but it has indicated own presence in a room. So, planning for two more units to drive my two 6-ch Melquiadeses I thought to place the a pair of PP2000 in the basement directly under the PP2000 Melquiadeses.  To do so I made holes in the floor for power cables and accommodated the stands for PP2000 under the floor. I have my electrician to run dedicated 20A lines to the future locations of the  PP2000  in the basement. Furthermore I stressed PurePower to make a remote control turn on/off options on my units, presuming to turn the Melquiadeses by remote turning on the regenerators – each Melquiades will be plugged in own PP2000. So, I thought and planed for everything but I got screwed in a way. The two new PP2000s that arrived turned out to be practically silent in operation. Whatever noise then make they are even comparable in noise with my two years old PP2000. Looking at this silent operation I ask myself why I need to put them in the basement - the can perfectly sit in my room next to the power amps.

So, now, presuming that my current old PP2000 will be upgraded to the silent status I need to revise where I would like my regenerators to stay, revising the location of the holes in the floor and the location of my dedicated 20A lines. The new silent operation of PP2000 is certainly not a bad thing but it does screw up my plans how I thought to use them.
Today I had a chance to do some measuring of one of the new PP2000 and the electricity I use. In US we have mostly 220V, 2 phases come to our houses.  The situation with 2 phases is confusing as I do not know if they are single-phase split:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html

Regardless if they are 2 phases or single-phase split it is know that one side of 120V is not the same as another side sonically. I made test I find the better sounding side. It was no surprise that the better sounding has less wave deformation. Interesting that that the better sounding part of 220V does sound better even if the PP2000 in use.

Then there was the turn of PP2000. I measured the single PP2000 that power one single 6ch Milq. The PP2000 still deforms sign wave when it sees input choke. With one Milq the deformation is twice lower then with two Milqs + the rest loads – so, whatever the PP2000 is it will be less stressed (deformation) with one Milq – and it is visible on scope.  One Milq made the PP2000 own meter to show 28% of load.

Sonically the new PP2000 is fine, I do not see any significant worsening or improvement compare to what I had before. I do hear a very minor increase in brightness but it might be from other reasons. Sonically the new PP200 is fine it looks like operationally it is fine as well. I did not have any faults of misbehaviors. I did not use the remote control options yet and they run all time - I would like them to burn-in a bit for now.

There is a strange behavior – the internal monitor does not show higher battery charge then 88%. It is not a big deal at all but I presume that after a week of charging the buttery shall be charged. The biggest thing was for me the buttery/line switch. I would like do not see any change any events on sinusoid when unit switch operation from buttery to line. A scope clearly showing that there are evens and the sinusoid has less distortion what the unit run from buttery.  However it is not the deference as I had on my unit, the same “fuzziness” did show up atop of sinusoid but the amplitude of it many-many times lower, practically negligible. Sonically I did not detect any deference between running from buttery and from line, what unit rune from proper side of 220V.

That all combined with the fact that that the PP2000 vintage 2010 is much quilter then it was 2 years back make it nice audition for my playback.  I wish I heard the mode objectively the difference between PP2000 powers 2 Milqs vs. one Milq but there are too many changes in my playback over the last few months and I do not think that I can extrapolate the only PP2000 contribution. I do feel that my playback get some dynamics with each PP2000 powering own power amp. The system is incredibly dynamic but there are so many “new” ingredients in the system that I am not sure how much the PP2000’s donation to this fact.  I might theoretically to run now both Milqs from the same PP2000 and then separate them to two different PP2000 and to report the result but I did not do this experiment and I do not think I have a need to research this subject. Logically a single Milq shall be les load and less distortions – how it affects sound I did not research.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-14-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,570
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 589
Post ID: 14946
Reply to: 14945
Going Through Phases
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, I don't know how theoretical physicists view it, but I think the guys who produce and distribute electricity stateside aim to send most residences single phase 220/230/240V, depending on where you live (in the USA).  As I mentioned previously, more and more power grids are going to "Smart Power", which is the Power People marketing version of "Value Engineering".

Interesting comments about scope artifacts and "fuzz" versus system sound in use.  I would say this seems to bolster your "dither" theory.  "Enough" dither gets you over the hump.

I wonder if because of inevitable self-noise/backwash, you might find best results from using different power legs and possibly different ground legs for each of the PP2000s?  I assume by now you understand the "difference" between "neutral" and "ground" in a given circuit.

Best regards,
Paul S
11-22-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 590
Post ID: 15002
Reply to: 14848
Trying to setup 3xPP200.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I spent a few hours trying to setup my 3 PurePower units. My initial plans got screwed. The PurePower sent of the units with wrong power plugs. Plus 3 dedicated 20A power line that I brought to the locations what I intend to install the PP2000s did not work out for me.  The new revisions of PurePower are much quitter then the old one and 3 of them can perfectly sit on the room with no sigh of noise.  So, this is what I am trying to do. I need to run the dedicated lines with different receptacles to the new location. I need to find a new smart layout of the power cables.  The last one is important. I need to bring from my backyard and the ground….

PP2000_Rack.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-23-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 591
Post ID: 15005
Reply to: 15002
New smart layout of the power cables
fiogf49gjkf0d
I think it needed to be expended what I mean by “new smart layout of the power cables”. What you run a large system than you have many circumstances when power cables cross signal cables. Not only that. The PDO cables are liquid filled and they do not want to cit next o the hearing baseboards of hot PS. The digital cables do not want to be next to AC cables. The parallel runs of the cables with different potential are not good idea. Add to it the desire to have all cable shortest possible, add the grounding problems, add the presents of 8 souses and 14 power amplifiers and you get the picture.

Many people run perfectly fine commercial amplifier for year and very happy with it. Then they for a first time connect it to 100dB sensitive speaker and they feel that the amplifier too noisy. Well, how about to run 14 channel with 14 amplifiers and 12 of the channel at 109dB sensitivity?
The reality is that Macondo/Milq might be absolutely silent, silent up to the point that you do not know if system on or off but it does not come right out of box as a plug and play. The Milq internals is fine – very silent but the external environment, primary the power cables might be a great announce to absolute silence. That what I mean by “new smart layout of the power cables”....

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
11-24-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 592
Post ID: 15006
Reply to: 15005
OK, the triple PP2000 are up and running.
fiogf49gjkf0d
Spend a few hour last night and have all the things connected and laid out in the way how I think would be “properly”. It turned out to be noise and elegant. I changed the location of the components to make the shorter paths for power cables and for interconnect. Now it is all in their finals, well-thought locations. I have 26 power consumers, 26 power cords – too much for being sane.  The playback now is all done – that is final and this is good. A few observations I still would pass.

I can’t say about Sound of 3 PP2000 regenerators. Everything is too new, too disturbed and POD cables need 2-3 days to calm down – now everything is bright and zippy.  The PP2000 works stable, silent and with no heat. Each unit that runs Milqs is loaded at 28%, the third PP2000 that runs the rest of the system is loaded at 35% when absolutely everything is ON. In reality is never happen and during the normal use it will be 22-24% of loading. I would like to measure what would be the peak load when my ULF amp crank the loudest LF passage but the PP2000 own load meter is too inactivate. I am looking now to get old analog 3cH oscilloscope for $20 to see in real time if my PP2000 not broken yet.  I do not think it is necessary or rational but no one said that I am a rational person. I am within my constitutional rights to exercise my stupid nerdiness, so let it to be.

About the things that I would like to be different. I kind of harassed the Purepower to make the remote control switches but since the units are sitting in the listening room, not in basement it becomes not as critical. Still I feel that remote control switches are a wonderful functionality and I am planning to use them. I think that Purepower shall make the small plastic remote condoles and accompany them with new units.  I would like also to see on the PP2000 a monitoring station. This functionality is easy available on many another devises and in a standalone version if cost $5. So I would like to see min and max input and output voltage (including the peak voltage), the record what the unit went to bypass. This all will be deleted what the unit restated but I would like to see what the PP2000 doing while it is working. The real time distortion analyzer would be wonderful but it is not $5 but more like extra $20.

Another thing that I feel Purepower might improve is an indication.  The PP2000 has very bright blue light indicating that unit is on. Then it has a very small and very dark green light indicating that the AC like is detected and engaged. In real world if to look from 10-20 feet the bright blue light overcome the dark green light and the green light is invisible. I would like to lights to be revered. I do not care if the unit is on – if is not then my amp will be off and I have enough light on the amps. What I would like to see on PP2000 what I glance on it from 20 feet is if PP2000 tracks the power line – I would like to see that dark and small green light. I would like also when the units goers in bypass to see a big red light. Alternately I would like to have option o have this big red bypass light to be resettable. It means that PP2000 went on, the bypass was activated and then PP2000 begin to track the power line. From this point I would like the red bypass light to track what PP2000 doe and if it go to the bypass even one foe one single period I would like the red line to stay on for a few second and indefinitely (it shall be configurable) . All of it cost virtually nothing, would have no impact to sound but would make PP2000 the more versatile power tool.

On another note, the biggest discovery that I have is that I need more interconnects but this will be a totally new subject. 

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 593
Post ID: 15031
Reply to: 15006
A few electric follow ups.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Since I installed the 3 of PP2000 units they do work wonderfully. Since my days 2-3 years back when a turn of power switch on PP1500 required to dress in bomb-squad outfit and when any switching might be the very last switching, I kind of have the Pavlovian Reflex rear to tune the PurePower On and Off.  My PP2000 is working flawlessly in my how foe 2 years but I hardly ever turned it on and off. I was so fearful to turn it on or off and what I moved to my new place I was considering do not turn it off and let it run from buttery.

Since I got the 3 units, I still keep one running all times – for front end, DAW and so on, but the two other PP2000 that driver Milqs I tune on and off all time – and the do perfectly fine. The PurePower Richard told that this is normal way to operate the PP2000. I still did not go over my Pavlovian fear but I have to report that I experience no problems now.

Me old PP2000 with the fuzziness problem was upgraded to the latest version PP2000. It turned out that I need to pay for this, whish sucks but I think it was worth it. So, I ended up with 3 newest PP2000, 2 of them with remote control.

Somewhere above I noted that I felt that the new PP2000 a bit brighter than the old one and a bit less protective to AC lines then the old PP2000 was. I reported it as I detected some fluctuation in sound quality during a day and between the days. Eventually I have discovered what caused it, fixed it and it was NOT due to the PP2000 operation. So, the PP2000 is exonerated from my earlier suspicions. Another cool discovery is that the new PP2000 looks like inject back to AC line less dirt then they did before, but it might be coming from the fact that I run each unit at own dedicate line and each units is loaded 3 time less then it was before.

There is another cool discovery. I installed external stand-by generator. It is suburb and light goes off sometimes (it was 3-4 times since I moved in). So, a automated, self-starting, naturals gas powers 7kW stand-by generator would give some piece of mind with heating system, water system, drainage system, PC servers etc…. There is an interesting moment in it however. The stand-by generator (by Generac) produces between 62Hz and 63Hz. My APC UPS machines that power my dev boxes and servers do not read anything above 62.5Hz. As soon my generator rise above 62.5Hz the PLL stop truck it and the UPS flip to battery operation. It looks like PP2000 doe read the odd frequency, this is good news. What I would like to learn if the PP2000 sound as good what it driven my stand-by generator. The generator outs VERY ugly wave, it is not even wave but a pure crap. The PP2000 shall kill it to DC anyhow but in practice the input super ugly AC shall affect sound. I wonder how much affective it would be….

Anyhow, the 3 of PP2000 are ruining and I do not have to say anything about them. They do what they meant to do; they sound fine and then do not malfunction. Probably the whole thread about the evil electricity might be coming to it’s logical end…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 594
Post ID: 15033
Reply to: 15031
'Dirt' injection
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Another cool discovery is that the new PP2000 looks like inject back to AC line less dirt then they did before, but it might be coming from the fact that I run each unit at own dedicate line and each units is loaded 3 time less then it was before.

This is of great interest to me. I'm having a dedicated mains circuit installed and was wondering whether the PP2000 would simply corrupt the line that feeds it. Romy, any idea how best to measure such 'dirt' going back into the line?

Mani.
12-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 595
Post ID: 15034
Reply to: 15033
The PP2000 and a single line?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 manisandher wrote:
This is of great interest to me. I'm having a dedicated mains circuit installed and was wondering whether the PP2000 would simply corrupt the line that feeds it. Romy, any idea how best to measure such 'dirt' going back into the line?

A PP2000 will unavoidably corrupt the line that feeds it. It is very easy to see by a scope, measuring your dedicated audio line parallel with PP2000 input and your utility line. The audio line and utility line will have the same distortion pattern but the line with PP2000 will have a MUCH more of HF noise, around 20K-30K. it is very easy to see by flipping the PP2000 input breaker – as soon the unit goes out of  bypass the input line will look like a well frosted cake.

In a way this is normal. All, with no exception impulse PS return a LOT of nose to the feeding lines. This is by topology and this is why it is VERY important do not lift the PP2000 ground on input. For the people who use only ONE dedicated audio line it will be debatable what is better – to run the rest of the system from the contaminated by PP2000 input line of to keep the dedicated line free for other components and to run PP2000 from utility line. I see justifications for both votes. I did see that the quality of line that drives PP2000 is auditable. It shall not be as PP2000 flats the things to DC but still I have fitness that a better feeding line produces better results. From another hand the observably noisier dedicated line with PP2000 in it might not impact the sound of your rest components. The amount and noise in the line and Sound are not directly related, so go figure…

The question that I would ask what do not pile everything to PP2000? Why do you want to leave anything out of it. Do you have any problems with sound with some specific components?


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 596
Post ID: 15035
Reply to: 15034
What to do with the DAW?
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
The question that I would ask what do not pile everything to PP2000? Why do you want to leave anything out of it. Do you have any problems with sound with some specific components?

My initial idea was to run just sensitive digital equipment and the preamp from the PP2000. But actually, there is no reason why I couldn't run everything (except the PC) from it.

At the moment, I run the PC on the utility line, through an isolation transformer. I'm concerned that by doing this, I'm introducing ground loops into the system. I say this because using the 'ground loop isolators' that are supplied with the Model Two seems to clean the sound up quite significantly. I haven't tried running the PC from the PP2000 output, but feel that I'd be defeating the object if I did. Of course, one solution might be to use a laptop on battery power...

Romy, how do you power your DAW?

Mani.
12-01-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 597
Post ID: 15036
Reply to: 15035
I was trying to be cautious….
fiogf49gjkf0d

 manisandher wrote:
My initial idea was to run just sensitive digital equipment and the preamp from the PP2000. But actually, there is no reason why I couldn't run everything (except the PC) from it.

I went over the very same stages of being cautious. To run the “sensitive digital equipment”, different isolation models, “everything except PC”. Then I plugged everything in this damn PP2000….

 manisandher wrote:
At the moment, I run the PC on the utility line, through an isolation transformer. I'm concerned that by doing this, I'm introducing ground loops into the system. I say this because using the 'ground loop isolators' that are supplied with the Model Two seems to clean the sound up quite significantly. I haven't tried running the PC from the PP2000 output, but feel that I'd be defeating the object if I did. Of course, one solution might be to use a laptop on battery power...

I do not know, Model Two was not supplied with 'ground loop isolators', so I am not sure what you are talking about.

 manisandher wrote:
Romy, how do you power your DAW?
I power my DAW from PP2000 as everything ease. I convinced myself to do it from ground considerations. You I have two ground – external and internal. The external is what the PP2000’s inputs are pumping dirt into. The internal is my audio gear is clean and end up with 15” copper poll in backward via 1ga cable.  To run PC from utility line it means to use utility dirty ground. I run single ended wiring and my ground is my negative signal terminal, my Milq’s cathodes are sitting on the same ground – I did not want to mix it with utility filthy ground. So, the only reasonable solution for me was to keep DAW on the PP2000 side, what the clean ground is. The next paragraphs read very careful as very few people including the PurePower people get it.

There is one more consideration that was more important that ground considerations what I moved my PC under protection of PP2000. It was the protection of “neutral”. You see, we have neutral ground and hot. Neutral is theoretically grounded in main distribution panel of your house but the 100s of lines that lead to this panel are usually confused. Some of them use neutral as ground and ground as neutral. So, 150 feet away in your house you have some potential between ground as neutral, what kind potential – it is depends how many fuck-up connected devises you have currently have in your house, street, block, town on and how good their input transformers are. As you understand it is imposable to control it. However, the PP2000 generating a new wave not truly crate for you a new “neutral” but as I can see minimums the neutral to ground variations as it make mostly my own equipment to affect the neutral to ground stray voltage. It is only if the PurePower did not fuck up and do not make tier units to have 40V-50V between neutral to ground as they did in the past.  BTW, I did not measured how much they have now, I shell do it.

Now, the reasonable question to ask: how my DAW sounds from PP2000? I wish I know the answers. I wish I would tell you that I spent weeks to connecting my DAW to different sources and try them. I did not do it. I have connected DAW to PP2000 one day and I did not feel that it made worse sound – which was all that I was hoping for. I can’t give you more details.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 598
Post ID: 15041
Reply to: 15036
The right grounding
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
I do not know, Model Two was not supplied with 'ground loop isolators', so I am not sure what you are talking about.
These are described in detail on page 8 of the User's Manual.

 Romy the Cat wrote:
I have two ground – external and internal.
I can't see how two Grounds could be used without having an isolation transformer separating them (as they do on metal-hulled yachts, I believe). Indeed, this is the way I'm going to do things. I've ordered a 15 kva isolation transformer. The 'dirty' ground of the house will be bonded to the shield between the primary and secondary of the transformer and the 'clean' ground from my grounding rod will be bonded to the Neutral of the secondary. Of course, the PP2000 will be fed from the secondary. The PC will be fed either directly from the secondary, or from the PP2000. Maybe it's silly, but I just can't help thinking that it's crazy going to all this trouble to get 'clean' power into my room, only to totally corrupt it with dirty switching supplies from the PP2000 and the PC. Perhaps I should think about using a laptop (on battery) and a PS Audio PPP (which I think uses a linear supply)...

 Romy the Cat wrote:
It is only if the PurePower did not fuck up and do not make tier units to have 40V-50V between neutral to ground as they did in the past.  BTW, I did not measured how much they have now, I shell do it.
This would be good to know.

Ultimately, this all seems too complicated (to me at least) so I think I'll just try feeding the PC from various sources and see if I can discern any differences in sound. "Suck it and see" I think is the technical term.

Mani.
12-02-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,049
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 599
Post ID: 15046
Reply to: 15031
VERY alarming behavior. Too early to close up the thread.
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:
Probably the whole thread about the evil electricity might be coming to it’s logical end…
Today turned the playback and I was surprise with gray and unexpressive bass. “What the hell?”-  I asked myself. There was absolutely nothing done to playback but I look like I lost bass. My initials sentiment was that at cold temperature my drivers in midbass horn in attic got too stiff. I check with my radio transmitter that I left in back chambers and it looks like both temperature and humidity were fine. Then I stick a scope in power line. The AC was pretty bad, not the worst I have seen here in West Woburn but bad, with a nice horizontal square atop of the wave. The wave after the PP2000 was fine of cause. So, what is the problem I wondered?  After some thinking I made a conclusion that the problem is most likely that PP2000 is semi-transparent to the AC problem of externals line, despite that it outputs a fine wave shape.

The only experiments that I was able to do is to run PP2000 from buttery and compare it to what PP2000 does what it runs from AC. This time it was very sorry unfortunate test. As soon I shot down at all 3 PP2000 AC input and the PP2000 switch to own battery I immediately got my bass back. It was so obvious and so apparent that it count not be even second thought what was the problem. I was listed a few opening bars of Tchaikovsky’s Second Movement of the 5th symphony (guess by who?). The opining cellos and basses has a lot of texture, transients and “strings bite” when playback runs from PP2000 buttery. As soon the PP2000 is switched to run from AC all bass colors are gone, the values of transients are filled with gray noise and the distinctions between the bass notes are virtually gone, Sound become boring like hell…

So, something is certainly is very wrong.  The very first PP1500 unit that I got 3 years back had absolutely no difference in sound between running from butteries and running from AC. My unit #7 that was very nicely working in my home foe over a year had very minor between butteries and AC, practically negligible difference. Those 3 new units had huge between butteries and AC. I am afraid that PurePower peoples loaded capacious into the units to suppress the HF residual spikes that they had from buttery charger and accidently they killed the Sound of the things. I mention it because you will have the absolutely the same effect if you add capacitors to the primary of your PS transformer – shunting caps on AC lines kill bass…

Anyhow, I am not convinces that it is the PP2000 fault – I have 3 units and I need to make the same test running everything from one units as 3 units give some ambiguity. However, there are very strong evidences that the last PP2000 has issuers. I might not detect it when my AC will be in better shape but today ether my AC or the PP2000 running not from butteries are truly horrible. It is sad as I did not sign for THAT.

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
12-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
manisandher
London
Posts 158
Joined on 09-05-2008

Post #: 600
Post ID: 15050
Reply to: 15046
Battery vs. line
fiogf49gjkf0d
 Romy the Cat wrote:
Those 3 new units had huge between butteries and AC.
I don't really want to share my thoughts on the sound of the PP2000 until my dedicated circiut is in place. But I will say that fed from my current utility line, the PP2000s battery output is clearly superior to its regenerator output, especially when I use headphones. Through my speakers, the difference is less pronounced.

There is a very strong caveat with my observation though. I use a Berning Siegfried amp to drive my headphones. This amp has a switch-mode power supply and is plugged directly into the utility and not the PP2000. Could it be that the Berning is corrupting the utility massively, and hence causing the effect with the PP2000 when I listen to headphones? (I think I read somewhere that David Berning is an electrical power inspector of sorts, so really should know what he's doing.)

Mani.
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