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06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 541
Post ID: 13700
Reply to: 13699
Electricity: what is beyond of APS Purepower?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Looking at Paul keep barking at the APS "success" I become to think what would constitute success in electricity battle. From one side the sonic result that PP2000 demonstrates is an indication that he battle is over. Is it?

Sure the PP2000 as a devise would need to have many enhancements: sane indication of load and voltage, on fly bypass, more stability against different load, perhaps lower distortions, pilot generator, and a few more. But the conversation is not about a unit that does the job but rather about the idea. Do we get maximum what we can get from electricity when we use good sounding PP2000? This is complicated question.

Partially I will be trying to answer this question trying my 60hz-60hz isolation motor-generator. However there is absolutely no assurance that it will be good result and therefore methodologically it is not kosher test. I would say a full buttery powered playback with a LOT of buttery headroom would be more kosher approach. Unfortunately as soon we see a fully buttery power playback then we see 3W PP amp driving a single Fostex driver…. 

 So, I wonder, is any way to conceptually define for ourselves what better power could do. Is it possible that the good sounding PP2000 has own masking effect and to get playback without it would require a deferent ways to deal with electricity? My playback not where I would answer those questions but I think the questions shall be raised…

Rgs, Romy the Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 542
Post ID: 13701
Reply to: 13699
PurePower's response to Calumny
fiogf49gjkf0d

There is no need for this GoodSoundClub forum to engage in warfare over the merits of PurePower products and our QC and service abilities.

I can answer any questions Paul might have – all he has to do is engage with us directly. My email is Richard@purepoweraps.com, Telephone 519 624 9735.

In spite of Romy’s contention that our QC isn’t up to his standards and we have no engineers of any ability and our brand of oscilloscope isn’t good enough,  he does confirm the simple fact that PurePower output has always delivered great sound. 

Romy’s opinion does need some updating. Our QC is thorough. Our engineers and technicians are world quality experts in AC power and how it interacts with audio equipment. They fully understand our product design and why it works. They are continually improving our products.

It is true that over past few years we had growing pains – and some service delays were definitely way too long.

We no longer suffer from slow service. In fact we do not have a single unit waiting for service today. Our turnarounds are very short. Our warranty policy is generous.

We have been delivering the PurePower 2000 for 3 years to over 30 countries worldwide – and our return rate is under 2%. The PurePower 1050 has not had a single return in 2010. 

Some of the anecdotal info is old. Some is about specific problems about grounding or unusual equipment interfacing problems. In general, Paul’s comments about reliability and performance are unfounded. It is not appropriate to criticize a product or company without speaking to the company or having personal experience. I would appreciate a call from Paul so I can understand his motivation and correct his misconceptions.
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 543
Post ID: 13703
Reply to: 13701
Math?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Richard, my only "motivation" is to keep the light on and my eye on the prize. Sticking just with recent events, of the 3 units Bill Gaw just dealt with, either 2 or all 3 of them failed to self spec.  Bill returned 1 of his own 2 units to you for service already, and Romy reports that his unit has been serviced several times without fixing it, which is consistent with several other units he had from you. Are you saying all this is coincidence?  Even if it is, what does this say about your QC? And how does your "oscilloscope" remark tie in to this? You will have to leave first base to get to second.

Regarding your remark that your units "always delivered great sound", this is, in itself, quite terrific, and good enough in itself for some. But coming from you at this point, it sounds rather like a sort of fallback positon, compared to previous remarks from PP here, that all units shall self spec, etc. In response to remarks like these, and a few brush-offs of complainers, I once joked that a PP user might have an easier time getting hum fixed than he would getting any system-sound-engendering issues taken care of, since that is not part of the specs.

I wish you understood that I am not attacking you or Pure Power.  This is what it is, and it is neither a lynching nor a Love-In for any company or product. Let fly with the truth, and I'll take my lumps, come to that.

Richard, if what you say about PP QC has become true, then anecdotal eveidence will begin to build up to support your claims. E-mail me any time you like, it might change your perspective; but it will take more evidence than Bill's to convince me that you have really turned the corner on QC yet.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
PurePower
Ayr, ON
Posts 44
Joined on 05-26-2009

Post #: 544
Post ID: 13704
Reply to: 13703
Deficient math you say?
fiogf49gjkf0d
Actually you certainly are attacking us - without reason and without accuracy. My math works fine -  We delivered 3 units in all to Bill. All met all our specs. One suffered a blown ceramic fuse shortly after installation. Not a QC issue, but proper protection. It was fixed in a matter of days, as it would have been for any customer - reviewer or not. So PurePower QC on Bill's order = 3 for 3.

Romy received his 2000 as an actual "beta" before we released the product to market 3 years ago because his system needed more power than the 1050 model could deliver and we respected his opinion enough to ask him to test and comment on our new model.  Apparently he felt it was worth keeping.

We have delivered no 2000 betas units since then. They are all full production models, and there is no performance  difference between a 2008 model and a 2010 version. We do however make continual improvements in our products. We believe that is the right thing to do.

If you had installed a PurePower in 2008 you would have had 3 years of better listening by now, instead of the limited quality you now have. If you were a typical PurePower customer you would in all likelihood have had no service issues whatsoever.

06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 545
Post ID: 13705
Reply to: 13700
The Mysteries of AC/DC/AC
fiogf49gjkf0d
Romy, you may have seen my meandering post a couple of pages back, where I took a "theoretical" approach to using batteries, and it promptly got out of hand from a purely practical point of view, to say the least. In the case of the "Giant Battery Pack", there must be a LOT of them, and charging all those batteries is no small matter.  Also, I suspect that isolating a charging system that's active during system play is no cakewalk, either.  In fact, I have wondered if the  PP somehow hit upon a way to actually use all or part of some "quality" of the conversion chain to +/- "treat the sound" in some way, since your measurements, at least, suggest it is not the "pure sine wave", per se that is getting the sonic part of the job done, not to mention the other "perfect sine wave" offerings that are disappointing in terms of sound.

"Good" batteries actually have remarkably fast current delivery, but I know very little about the pure sine wave converters with respect to "rise time", nor do I know what sort of effects these devices have on the sound as they convert the DC to AC.

The regenerators one sees today are more and more relying on step-up/down, switching power conversion, to keep things small and efficient, and I think that microprocessors are getting to be the norm in terms of regulation, going both ways.  It sure looks like this can work, based on PP success with sound, but who can say how their battery figures in, apart from "adjusting" sag (not that this is a small matter...).  From reports tendered here, it does not sound like that battery offers "total" isolation from  the line and conversion systems when the thing is plugged in, and, of course, it also sounds like it usually does not need to.

Best regards,
Paul S
06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 546
Post ID: 13706
Reply to: 13699
LOL
fiogf49gjkf0d
"Please refrain from commenting on that which you do not know."

Ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! [His loudest, most raucous rattling laugh.]

That would shut down the whole frikkin' Net!

Regarding reliability, that's certainly a reasonable concern. On the other hand there were people in the old days who drove Jaguars and doted on them and swore by them despite numerous breakdowns. Myself, I couldn't live with that, but if the thrill of ultra-high performance transports you (as it were) then more speed to ya!

Later it turned out that many if not most of the failures were due to Lucas electricals, and Jaguar was to blame as well for having chosen (I am told) the lesser line of goods from that supplier. There may  be analogies in audio.

clark





06-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 547
Post ID: 13707
Reply to: 13706
Funny You Should Mention It...
fiogf49gjkf0d
Clark, the first car I ever owned was a "restored" 1957 Jaguar XK140M roadster, purchased in 1967.  It hauled ass... when it was running... and indeed we used to refer to Sir Lucas as "The Lord of Darkness".  I can tell you, however, that there was plenty else that went wrong with that car!

This is actually one of the things that is very important to me here, to be able to just FORGET about electricity, the way my "best" components have done their jobs for me.

Excellent (super-soft) point about vendor choices...

Best regards,
Paul S
06-05-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
clarkjohnsen
Boston, MA, US
Posts 298
Joined on 06-02-2004

Post #: 548
Post ID: 13708
Reply to: 13707
Further
fiogf49gjkf0d
The epithet I learned, long ago, was "Prince of Darkness". I was of course thinking of that when I wrote the note.

Back in the late Sixties I had a British boss, name of John Hardy, who once remarked, "The British really know how to build a great car....... Pity that they don't."

clark
06-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 549
Post ID: 13731
Reply to: 12709
Ping, Montepilot
fiogf49gjkf0d
Montepilot, referring back to your 01-15-10 post, did you ever get and put into play the unit you ordered?

If you would not mind adding your experience to the pool, how did it work out for you, so far?

Best regards,
Paul S
06-10-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montepilot


Boston, MA.
Posts 42
Joined on 12-13-2007

Post #: 550
Post ID: 13733
Reply to: 13731
Update on PP2000
fiogf49gjkf0d
Paul,

I finally received my unit in February 2010.  After installing it there was an immediate improvement to the sound of my system.  I live in an apartment near downtown Boston.  My playback varied from day to day.  It proved to be very frustrating for the cat who came by several times to help me out with some problems.  The system performed so differently from one day to the other you could not get a handle on any change you made in the system. It could sound very good or bad one day but the following day a totally different presentation. 

The system finally stablized after I put the PP2000 in.  The variations ceased and eliminated grundge that was previously in the system. He agreed that the sound improved quite a bit. One evening Romy decided to test the unit. When he tested the unit the sine wave was flat topped.  However in battery mode the sine wave was very good with an ever so slight wrinkle at the very top. Not perfect as it should be. He posted a picture of this as you can see if you do a search on this site.  Peculiarly though the sound did not vary from battery power to wall power eventhough with wall power the sinewave was distorted. Thanks to him I would never have known or even suspected the unit was not performing according to spec.

I was very reluctant to send my unit back for fear something would happen that would cause me to lose the sonic advantage I had received even if PurePower corrected the sine wave problem.  Still I could not be content knowning my unit did not have a perfect sinewave.

I contacted the company and they had me return the unit to them.  After and initial inspection they could not determine why the sinewave was not perfect.  Later I was told there was a fault somewhere on the circuit board that affected only the reading of the sinewave but should not have affected the sonics.  Finally they isolated a faulty component and replaced it.  After the repair they performed test and sent me the results of their test showing a perfect sinewave no kinks or wrinkles.  I understand this test is now part of their QA/QC procedure and a paper is included as standard with all units now being shipped showing the results of this test on the unit being sold.  I believe they do a better and more thorough job of testing than they did before.  Incidentally it took about 4 weeks to determine the problem get the proper parts and return it to me.

My unit now performs as well as it did before I sent it back.  I have not noticed any sonic improvement eventhough they have corrected the sinewave plot. 

In conclusion I see it was futile for me to try and improve my playback without addressing electricity.  It was the best money I have spent for audio electronics.

Regards,


"It's like an act of murder; you play with the intent to commit something"--Duke Ellington
06-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 551
Post ID: 13734
Reply to: 13733
Oh, Say Can You See Kansei yet?
fiogf49gjkf0d

In the end, only so much can be accomplished with hi-fi until the electricity is sorted out and made to be not only good, but also consistent. Congratulations on turning that very important corner.

Disappointed as I am to hear of yet another random sample delivered bad this far into the "new era", yet I am glad that either you persisted or APS relented to finally diagnose and repair your unit, not to mention the fact that, once again, the unit facilitated better sound from your system, in any case.

I am probably not alone in hoping that what appears to be continuing random, reactive QC is instead a Canadian variant of kansei engineering, in which case they could be rounding their own very round corner, their own way, themselves.

Best regards,
Paul S

06-11-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
montepilot


Boston, MA.
Posts 42
Joined on 12-13-2007

Post #: 552
Post ID: 13735
Reply to: 13734
PP2000 QA/QC
fiogf49gjkf0d
"or APS relented to finally diagnose and repair your unit"

As a sidebar to my repair problems I must note that I did not have to pressure PurePower to repair my unit.  They responded to the matter in a timely fashion.  They arranged for UPS to pick up the unit from my home so I would not have to lug the quite heavy unit to a UPS distribution center. Richard Jansen stayed in contact with me by phone and email, to let me know how things were developing as they tried to sort out the problem.

Regards,

monetpilot


"It's like an act of murder; you play with the intent to commit something"--Duke Ellington
07-30-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 553
Post ID: 14148
Reply to: 2931
A phenomenal no-event today.
fiogf49gjkf0d
I was perhaps a textbook even but it was what it was.
 
Charles Dutoit lead today BSO with all-Russian program. It was Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 featuring Kirill Gerstein. Ron della Cheisa announced the Dutoit on his podium, the orchestra takes the celebrated opening bars, the Kirill Gerstein join with piano and suddenly the lights in my house blink for a fraction of second. I look back and see the timers on my microwave and the ovens reset. I jump to my computer that was recording the broadcast and recognize that it was no event for my recorders. Neither Pacific, nor my DAW lost power and even the master clock never got locat. It was simply no event for my entire playback. .. thank to the PurePower 2000.
 
BTW, I wonder if I use my mechanical generator assembly then I hope to get the same effect. An immediate blip of power shall be consumed by the inertia of the motor-alternator rotating mass. I hope to test it…. BTW, the above-mention concert turn out to be a garbage but it was not the point….
 
The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 554
Post ID: 14166
Reply to: 2931
My motor-generator screwed up idea
fiogf49gjkf0d
Well, what I told you that I am a Moron and you did not believe me then you were fools. Here is a case to point.

This week I deeded to connect my Holrick mechanical motor-generator in use. I did not mean to listen the sound of it. My objectives were to hear the mechanic noise level, for figure out how to connect it and to measure how it performs under different loads. The control board, the motor and the alternator are in wonderful shape and I was ready to plug them and then I realized that I have 3 Phase motor. What a bummer!

Of course I do not have in my residential neighborhood any 3 Phase 220 or 440V. All that I have is a typical American single phase 120-0-120. A call to electric company brought the news that to bring a 3 Phase will cost over $15K.  I am obviously will not do it to “try” how my motor-generator sound. Even the use of the phase converter is problematic. The dynamic phase converters for 10HP are huge and noisy machines themselves. The static phase converters – essentially a capacitor are problematic in operation. Perhaps I need to get or make on just to try…. I was thinking that for a price of a static phase converters I might get a single phase motor to spin my generator and juts to replace the existing 3 phase motor.

Again, it all would be fine option if I know that the motor-generator option sound fine. I have absolutely no assurance in it and to spend another $1K just for sake of pure uninsured experiment is a bit bothersome to me. At this point my 1000 pounds motor-generator is sitting on my driveway under a tarp and I do not know what to do with it next.

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 555
Post ID: 14168
Reply to: 14166
Converters
fiogf49gjkf0d

Small-ish shop machinists and others who really benefit from the solid reliability and efficiency of 3-phase motors all use rotary converters, which run all day, every day, without complaint. Yes, they are noisy; but they will also drive some cable, which allows you to move them away.

These things last forever, and they turn up often at wholesale equipment auctions. You might even be able to buy the cable at one of those auctions.

Best regards,
Paul S

08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Bill
Kensington, NH
Posts 117
Joined on 03-15-2010

Post #: 556
Post ID: 14170
Reply to: 14168
Voltage conversion
fiogf49gjkf0d
If you want to try it out all you need is a large enough step up transformer for the current needed to convert the 240 to 440. I have several 2 and 3 KVA transformers in the attic you could use.


Bill
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 557
Post ID: 14172
Reply to: 14170
DIY capacitive static phase converter.
fiogf49gjkf0d

Well, the third phase is a bitch. If I have a n extra motor then I might try this

http://www.team.net/www/shop-talk/hm3phase.html

but for now I think I will try a regular capacitive static converter with a cap to convert the US standard 220V

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_10/1.html

to 3 phase fake power.

http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html

The caT


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-03-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 558
Post ID: 14175
Reply to: 14172
The Motor-Generator Assembly
fiogf49gjkf0d
I found a good company that do converters price-effectively.  I sent to them my motor data and they will do a custom converter for it.  I will try how it goes…

http://www.wnysupply.com/index.cfma

Here is how my Motor-Generator look like....

Motor_Generators_Assembly_1.JPG

Motor_Generators_Assembly_2.JPG




"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
08-04-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Paul S
San Diego, California, USA
Posts 2,664
Joined on 10-12-2006

Post #: 559
Post ID: 14177
Reply to: 14175
Rote Stats; Static vs. Rotary
fiogf49gjkf0d
That sure looks like "authentic" equipment, all right. Like I mentioned early on, I was taught ~2hp/1kW for reliable operation and full duty cycle.  As I recall, any converter means +/- power losses and/or shorter duty/life cycles, but the static types were not as efficient.  Perhaps things have changed, or perhaps you have enough slack that it does not matter?

None of this stuff can be cheap!

Best regards,
Paul S
08-28-2010 Post does not mapped to Knowledge Tree
Romy the Cat


Boston, MA
Posts 10,166
Joined on 05-28-2004

Post #: 560
Post ID: 14348
Reply to: 13084
Disappointment so far with motor-generator idea
fiogf49gjkf0d

 Romy the Cat wrote:

OK, I agree – it might be not necessary as PP2000 does produce fine electricity in a convenient package. Furthermore it violates the rule that I try to follow in audio generally: define snick objective and ONLY then render audio methods.

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=432

So, if the PP2000 produce a good sounding electricity then why I still bather myself to look into this subject? Well, probably because I am a Moron and intellectuals masturbation is very much not alien to me. The idea of TRYING the conceptually perfect electricity bugs me and I know that no one by myself would be able to satisfy my interests… So, I ate he bullet and got the motor-generator assembly. Did anybody believed that after I get ½ acre of unused lend then I will not try this option? Well, I did not get the house yet but being a fool I got the damn generator.

The really is that I did not what the opportunity pass by. There was a deal for one of those machines:

http://www.horlick.com/products.asp?prod=79&cat=65

http://www.horlick.com/images/MG-60RC-v4.pdf

It is not the induction motor-generators that commonly used everywhere and that suffer from slippage, voltage droops problem to care load, low efficiency, high distortion and frequency fluctuation. What I got is a set of true synchronous brushless motor and synchronous brushless generator, even they much more complex and much more expensive but they produce a perfect waveform that is synchronized with the rotation – a true mechanical regeneration.  It is very expensive set but I got a very good deal on it, not to mention that it is not current production but older machine that use US/UK made parts. It is 6.5kW and optimized to care inductive load– perfect for my application, with exception of 950 pounds weight and 80dB self noise.

The only problem that I see with this devise would be dealing with noise and with… unknown quality of sound it will produce. If the sound of electricity will be better than PP2000 then I think to build a soundproof generator shed on backyard.

http://curezone.com/upload/Members/ChazTheMeatHe/Books/Survival/BW_Mag/Generators_En/How_to_construct_a_soundproof_generator_shed_By_Skip_Thoms.pdf

I can do much better that what article suggest and I have many idea how to make it very chip but very effective.

So, the attempt is here. Funny that I made the move without having the house yet but I truly did not what the opportunity for a good motor-generator set to pass. I think if I get the house in March then sometime in the end of summer I will be able to try the motor-generator and to hear the sound it produces.  Let see how it goes but I know now that I will not be bitching that I never tried it. At this point I need to found somebody guilty if it will not sound good.


I spent today a half of the day to connect the Horlick motor-generator to setup the Horlick’s automation. The set has a very cool regulator. It is a mechanical multi-section device. The mechanical sound the unit produces is also surprisingly calm. It sounds like a large window air-conditioner – no louder.

Well, still a sort of disappointment. The generator does not produce a continuing sinusoid but a combination of very fine cords. It is not what I am l was looking for and I am not pleased.   I admit that despite of the patchy sinusoid  it the unit’s electricity still might sound not bad but I was kind of so pissed that I deseeded do not listen it for now.

Holrick_setup2.JPG

Holrick_setup2.JPG

Holrick_setup3.JPG

The Cat


"I wish I could score everything for horns." - Richard Wagner. "Our writing equipment takes part in the forming of our thoughts." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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   Target    Threads for related reading   Most recent post in related threads   Forum  Replies   Views   Started 
  »  New  What lives in Symmetric Sound?..  The beginning of our journey is ALWAYS symmetrical...  Audio Discussions  Forum     19  175627  05-28-2004
  »  New  Always check power-line polarity...  The Cost of Knowing...  Audio For Dummies ™  Forum     11  112792  07-10-2005
  »  New  RAAL “Water Drop” tweeter for Macondo...  Your comment takes me by surprise...  Horn-Loaded Speakers Forum     77  926469  02-16-2007
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