In nature, the SOUND always propagates "outwardly expanding", so to the ear, this is a natural thing.

Any containment is like a muffler on a car, constraining, restricting, resonating, chocking, forbidding, etc....

These are good tools to know about sound for many purposes mentioned above, but for "natural sound reproduction purposes" sound must be free to "expand" as in nature. Hence why we do horns when we get older?

My opinions, not liable legally in any way, 

thanks, j. 

Mjloudspeaker,

I was under impression that M4 has problems because it if too small cone for the double suspension. Anyhow, it would be interesting to see the pictures and your expended thoughts about the M4 sound, not just expressing you assurances that the M4 “sounds good”.  I also wonder how you will be using the M4 in context of a horn and in context of a complete installation.

Also,  Mjloudspeaker, and I am not kidding,  try to more organized and compile your thoughts in a minimum amount of posts. It is not a bulletin board and there is no need to flood the site with single-phrase, sine-thought posts. Many people, including myself, subscribe the threads email notification and I do not need to get 5 emails about basically nothing.  Let to be more self-disciplined.

As can be seen in above photos, the front chamber is in reality "chamber of horrors" with highly polished surface interior, and look at the phase plug, after disassembly, I put it back together, and how can you align it? All that holds it together is extra long screws.

Does not matter, it needs to be dismissed for my (or any other serious sound) application. Sad as it is beautifully made, so how to use it and not feel bad?

I have included some better uses for this m4 stuff if you do not like it further, and I have tried to stay on topic of thread of "fane m8 studio replacement" theme, not Macondo topology/mjloudspeaker contest.

Here are great use of m4 if you still don't like the sound of it, after baring the motor cone of the above "public address accessories".

m4 salad bowl strainer

art devo m4 hat

m4 boat anchor

It is easy to fabricate a plate cover for the m4, I don't have it here, but a simple mdf donut with attachment to horn is needed, using the same bolts that hold the front chamber on there, so anyone can do that part, I won't go to workshop to show you this simple donut.

This concludes my contribution to the thread of finding a replacement for fane. At the very least, give the m4 a try, as my opinion of "sound" does not matter, and my application of "topology" is my own, also does not matter, and is still a work in progress, nothing is really done, (except to remove offending pieces off of the m4 and the titanium is done) except to discover the m4, so I am mostly done here with posting. I will update with horn when I get it done, whenever that be. Sorry if I don't have more fascinating stuff for site, but hey, life.

Thanks for having me Romy, best regards, j. 

Mjloudspeaker,

That is all fine. I get that you like them, even though said nothing about the “new” M4 sound. There is another “even though”. You do not log it into horn and like just the sound of open driver. It is absolutely not indicative. Perhaps you can predict how the sound of open air driver gets converted into sound of horn loads driver.  Good for you because I never was able to do it.

Next thing is the application. I do have doubts about your findings. You keep stressing how much you like the driver but you are falling to answer 3 inquiries about the ways how you use the M4.   If you have 100-150Hz hour and use something like Fane 8M then you have 86Hz primary resonance from Fane, drive it up to the mouth rate and have a good preliminary match. M4 in default setting has primary resonance I presume around 100Hz higher then Fane so how you will be driving with it 100Hz horn.

http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/M4_SPEC.pdf

The removing the phase plug and exit channel is fine but it itself is not a lot. You need to construct the new mounting plate, find a way to convert the new driver exit into the throat of your horn, load the diver into horn, redo the back chamber in order to accommodate the new load.

http://www.rentcom.com/wpapers/commun/cover.html

http://www.hamran.org/audio/Community-M4.html

Only then I thing you can make assumption about the M4 sound. It is very possible that after all those modifications you will not be able to use M4 in a horn lower then I would say 180Hz.  Sine you did say that you did not like horns and presumably did not have a lot of exposure to them in past I would presume that you findings about the M4 driver are premature.

My idea is a upright horn like your "midbass hanging thing", at 200 hz for the smaller size of it, and this will be my work for 2009/10. What I would like is exponential curve, not tractrix horn, something like this one perhaps?

 
this is copyright of someone, if anyone knows who, please give credit to owner, thanks.

The biggest problem is time alignment, my room is not so large actually, and this project will have my hands full for sure. What I like is like you said very small footprint.

See ya, Romy.

P.S. thanks for the help always appreciated, I will post in the future. done for now.

nonono, romy, there is no 500 to 800 pounds horn in my life, mjloudspeaker is and always has been different philosophy of what everyone does really, always simplified and yes lightweight construction, (we did the traditional way, it is full of many problems, and my back hurts now always, and you can call me smart, cheap, frugal, whatever you want) and my lightweight view will expand on this horn, a "different take of horn" if you will, I plan to surprise even me. I think it will be a great creation, but i am mjloudspeaker, ful of myself as usual, and my ideas are bubbling with m4 horn ideas. Is this Christmas?, i don't think so. But I like this job. It is my passion. This and motorcycles/bikes. Whatever.

I know what you say, but being a new guy to this type of construction project, I think 200hz is maneageable size for my room, and the pic above is just kind of what I like, also like very much your midbass thing, and it is in the thick of things, for the sound. I am very happy that 200 is smaller, I just don't know much about horns, so how much smaller? I must find out.

The transmission lines wil do the bottom, and I am excited to say the least, think you may be surprise and like the result, I may like this new sound, I have horn sound in my studio, Romy, I know and like horn, they are just animals to tame, but I like them,

My titanium model loudspeaker weighs only 85 pounds approx. This thing is taller than me, and still is too heavy for me (my taste). Oh well, when you build stuff, weight adds up.

Enough, it is a great day, I need to go out, and again, I say i will post the work later, ok?

I will call them BlackStealth Horn Drama, after my my new ex-wife. I do not care what anyone thinks, this is for my pleasure, please sue me if you disagree, my lawyer (self represented me is waiting) and these devices must meet the highest standards ever, to please me, mjloudspeaker guy. Just the way it is, there.

I really hope you don't reply to this, as I am on holidays, and need some time off. 

Take care, j. 

mjloudspeaker wrote:

My idea is a upright horn like your "midbass hanging thing", at 200 hz for the smaller size of it, and this will be my work for 2009/10. What I would like is exponential curve, not tractrix horn, something like this one perhaps?   this is copyright of someone, if anyone knows who, please give credit to owner, thanks. The biggest problem is time alignment, my room is not so large actually, and this project will have my hands full for sure. What I like is like you said very small footprint. See ya, Romy. P.S. thanks for the help always appreciated, I will post in the future. done for now.

Very important to give the credit where it is due, and it is due these fine people, image above is copyright specimenproducts.com, they make very nice work and have videos to watch on the youtube channel, give them a click, very worthwhile, now my end is wrapped up, j.

http://www.specimenproducts.com/amps/XLHorn.html

"I may be wrong to continue here with M4 ideas, Romy, feel free to move this where you want, thanks".

In my very audio eccentric strange mind, there is two concepts for M4 that pop to the surface, and that merit some explorations. See if you can help me out somehow, to make this concept to an actuality of practical design.

CONCEPT 1 for M4 Model Drama™- The use of very complex surfaces to "confuse, diffuse, but not refuse the sound". It is the Stealth.Or simply, Complexity Conception of Sonic Surfaces©™mjloudspeaker

This idea I find intriguing and I hope that some young designers get involved and plunge into audio with some deep designs, and I must always go to the past to understand the future, it is the best thing for me to do. What Stealth means is simple, you see something, but hear nothing, as the system disappears, like the airplane, invisible. This is my hope, to look at this very strange device, but when I make it play, you say, what? Close your eyes, the massive is gone.

tHE PAST IS fUTURI STIC?

Here is a very futuristic looking stylized recent acquisition, the IWATA BUTTERFLY X, the gentleman said it to me, (please let us forget other iwata tradegy on site) with room in back chamber for a 12 inch driver horn good for 300 hz possibly, more likely maybe 400 or 500, does not matter, ears will tell me, these acquired by buzz lightyear aka as yours truly, outdoor use I will. If this looks stealthy, it could be an engine module of the stealth bomber aircraft, I can see the flame come out at supersonic volume of the horn sound! This would be fast! This thing is what? 30 maybe 40 years old, and way forward in design, but it will break the road crews back in 5 seconds flat, it is so heavy and the size of toyota prius, but larger, so no wonder it is gone, left to rot in the field, where I rescued 4 of my little iwata butterflys, for my very grandiose bush wacker sonic needs.

This has nothing, yet everything to do with M4 development, (but I may load them in there for a test pilot run just for fun), makes me ponder still, (that how much previous knowledge is gone, buried with the learned, there has to be a wonderful afterlife where I can talk with them and learn), and has a very unique construction feature for the readership: Sandwich is baltic fir, thick fiberglass lenses, with nice damping injected expanding foam in the middle! This stuff is available anywhere now! This is very "leading edge technology" in some very basic ways, considering the age of this Butterfly X.

Very promising this Complexity Conception of Sonic Surfaces ©™mjloudspeaker, the old iwata has it outside in the form of it, not inside where I want it to be to affect the "Sound", but the biggest impairment wall that I see in the mjloudspeaker copyright/trademark concept listed above, is I cannot visualize this horn yet, so most definitely cannot build it yet. These people do it better than I can explain to you. Would be similar, but different, you know?

Listening to one of M4, connecting full range by itself, lonely like, and this is all right, is it me?,

Or are we spoiled here with sonic overtones and other things?

My testing is not complete, but verry interrestting!!

Anyone that disagrees, please go away! 

Methods used,

• testing with front chamber only,
• front chamber/phase plug combo,
• and open face configurations. 

I am learning as I write this, but damn well know and understand that a driver needs system integration to perform anyway, anyhow, nevertheless.

Question? -  this driver has low harmonics and tonal additions, and reminds me of kef b139, pistonic action of without overtones, I may be contributing to the wrong site here? I am a big fan of IMF TL80's, and this sonic way is low noise, high duration low fatigue method vehicle, sonically speaking, and I say this with not one iota of disrespect for findings of relevance into any matters relating to reproduction of whatever.

I SAY NO DEAL!

Advancement of sound is the goal, and some of these piston like effects (without injections of tonal and other sonic character) are useful, in my mind. 

Romy the Cat wrote:

I wonder: does it mean that you will take the rest 28 drivers? Hm, are you trying to research the subject of the drivers’ critical mass or become a speaker maker? Be careful with their claims that they will be “manufactured to the same specification as the original unit”. They all claim this but really is never the same. Did you buy the Tanoy spare cones that were made from the “same paper”? I do not say anything bad about fane – they were in past good to my custom orders. Still, my experience with manufacturers suggests that these products are NEVER the same. Also, $480 plus shipping… is it a bit stiff if you ask me. If you need 2 drivers and you suddenly wiling to use Fane Studio 8 then you swallow the bullet and go over. However, if you do for whatever reason consume 28 drivers then it is a lot of money…

Romy the Cat wrote:

Hm, are you trying to research the subject of the drivers’ critical mass or become a speaker maker?... Did you buy the Tanoy spare cones that were made from the “same paper”?

Romy the Cat wrote:

Well, I do not care one way or another and I truly have no “concern”. I have my drivers; I think I have some spare – so why would I care about new productions.

Romy the Cat wrote:

Be careful with their claims that they will be “manufactured to the same specification as the original unit”. They all claim this but really is never the same... I do not say anything bad about fane – they were in past good to my custom orders.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I credit myself with this discovery and as I do not remember at that time nether Fane nor anybody else made any implication that Studio 8M is interesting driver.

Romy the Cat wrote:

If Fane feels that their Studio 8M such a great driver and shall be sold as some kind of "unique drivers" then why they stopped to made them?

Romy the Cat wrote:

To ask individual retail customers to pay a lot of money and to collect buyers for them is not what I would like them to do

Romy the Cat wrote:

If you willing to volunteer to become their pro-bono sales guy then there is nothing wrong with it if you like such a job title.

Romy the Cat wrote:

I see a lot of voluntarism in the events from your, Rakesh, side

Romy the Cat wrote:

If the sources of the part are available and if the know how is still in the fane hands then where is the stock Studio 8M? This driver had no competitors and was the higher sensitivity among 8"inchers with sun 100Hz resonance and had surprising tone, among other things.

Romy the Cat wrote:

At that time Fane was selling Studio 8M for $72 retail, it menaces that for bulk of 50 driver it would be around $25 per driver.