I usually do not do the Audiogon posting. There are too many idiots in there and they are under too much protection of the douchebags that run that site. Not to mention that I well remember WHY I was “banned” from Audiogon to begin with:

http://www.romythecat.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?postID=2329

Still, I was attracted to subject that some Audiogon posted touched, so I decided to play alone. Eventually it turned into the typical Audiogon BS with simpletons craving for imperative recommendations. According to Audiogon business model it had to follow with an army of audio pimps and “advisers”. I am not a vulture and I will let whoever enjoy it to participate….

However, yesterday I posted an extended wrapping up to that Audiogon subject that Audiogon douchebags deleted. I have no idea why, probably if I send them Micro 5000 as an admission gift or show to them a tattoo on my ass with audio reselling license than they would not vandalize my post. Anyhow, as the respect to the time I invest to type it I reposted it here. This is my conclusion post that was deleted from the end of second page of the following thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1244737338

Right before I said: “I have written today a large conclusive post and posted it, withdrawing myself from this thread. For whatever reasons the post disappeared. I saved it and I will rep-post in at my site as I think it does a good conclusion for this whole thread.”

*************************************************************

To answering the Thuchan’s initial question about the differences between the SZ-1 and SX-8000 and to finish my enrolment in this thread…

The SZ-1 is not a Micro-Seiki flagship. It was flagman before Micro-Seiki stated to do 8000, so most of the SZ-1s were made before Micro begun to make 8000 model. The SZ-1, if you fins it will be old very old. Micro is gone in may 2001 and up to the spring 2001 they made (in one way or another) 8000/II, so with the best luck you can fish a TT that will be 10-15 year old and catch the TT from Micro production of 90s. The SZ-1 is very much an assurance that it is production from 70s or beginning of 80s. It might not be so bad but it is 30-40 years old TT with all following consequences.

Micro SZ-1 has air-suspended motor and the motor has a small gyroscope on it. It is probably good design-wise but I am a bit defensive to accept that it has a lot of actual impact to sound. I drove 8000 with variety of different motors, including adding to original 8000 motor a custom-made mushroom-shape axis-extender that created a very good flywheel/gyroscope effect on the motor. With all honesty, even if I could recognize some differences but they were not worthy attention. If you load your cartridge with let say with 75R then can you recognize the change to 72R? Well, we probably can (not blindly) but can you correlate it with change of VTA to .2 degree? If you say that you can then I would challenge you honesty and sincerity.

One interesting moment about the SZ-1 vs. 8000 debate might be around the urban legend that suggested that Micro use in SZ-1 a “straight” motor but later in 5000 and 8000 models they went for active start motors. The idea was to let the motors for a first 5 second of TT start to run at high voltage to give an initial momentum to a stationary platter. The notion is cool but after seeing quite a few 5000 and 8000 I did not find this behavior. Opening and 5000 and 8000 motors I also did not see anything that would be responsible for it. Also, with all honesty - what is the difference? If you TT would reach a cruse speed for 15 second or for 25 second? One might say that one approach is better for motor bearing then another but come on people, let have some perspective to it – you will die sooner than the damn TT motor will wear out! So, who cares!

I never had SZ-1 but I know 3 people who dose. I heard the SZ-1 but I would not make comments about it sound in contest to 8000. I would not accept the comment of the SZ-1 owners what they think about the SZ-1 sound vs. the 8000. The reason for it is because I know in my personal experience that it is immensely difficult to methodologically correct and intellectually honestly to compare the sound of two turntables if both of them are made more or less properly. Tolstoy use to say the bad marriages are all different but the good one all the same. There is a lot of truth in it in audio. I have an interesting experience about it last year. People who know me know that I am a big FM enthusiast and I had a killer tuner that under proper use delivered the best FM result possible.  Then I brought another “best tuner”, mane by completely different topology, culture, coals and period. That another best tuner, appropriately properly used for own topology delivered absolutely identical “best FM result possible”. So, all roads lead to Roma and I think that it is very much with TT. At the level of Micro 8000 or SZ-1 (conditionally 5000 of you know what you do) you are way beyond the point where your TT is the weakest element of your chain. If you wish to play more with analog improvement then play with other analog aspects and live the TT alone. The whole beauty of the large Micros that they are just a based platform that set a sets a default sound, certain pedal-point of analog performance and you can shape something above this base but you do not go below the pedal-point.

So, me the debate about SZ-1 vs. 8000 is mostly a debate about ergonomics and nothing else. As the result of this thread I did get the message about the accused benefits of extra flywheel for 8000. In my past I learned that it was not true. Still, if you insist I might give it one more try and if the circumstance will come I might try it evaluate the subject again. Still I would not actively peruse it as I did in past. In fact most likely, since I sold my flywheel unit,  I might not do it and will die in complete analog ignorance… Probably if someone will bring a good flywheel to me I might put it on use, otherwise it will be as is: with no bass, collapsed soundstage, with no inner-details and a lot of background noise… :-)

I have one of my newest Micro Seiki RX-5000 sitting in basement for years and doing nothing and I decided to let it go. I was keeping it for year as some kind of back up TT, in case my 8000 got broken or as TT that I would be able to use at my second setup in Opera Room. Looking how I use my Opera Room, what kind musoc I have been listening there I finally concluded that it will be never a turntable in there. So, the 5000 will be going away….

It is interning to think about the price I have to ask. The market value of RX-5000 nowadays is about 10K. I look what the turntables cost out there. It looks like for the last 5-7 year the price of turntables (and loudspeaker) climbed up significantly and nowadays any chip plastic TT that use to cost under 1K people trade for 5-7K, similar to it you will hardly fine any 3-4 way loudspeaker for under 25K. So, I wonder if I position RX-5000 at the very top echelon of TT in trim of performance, significantly more interestingly in sound that many contemporary TT with price tag of 30K, then shall the price of RX-5000 reflect that?

What I do is not trying to pump up of RX-5000 cost but rather to raise a legitimate question about the RX-5000 value. 10K nowadays is a price of something like Technics SL-1000, will RX-5000 deliver better sound? The interesting moment – I do not know the answer.

We unfortunately price turntables not according to their Sound but according a public reputation and bits of roomers we collect from publications and from internet. It might be a valid way to do the thing but it is not objective evaluator.

I think the value of TT might be measured by Last Sound it produced. What does it mean the “Last Sound”. Pretend that you set up some kind of serious installation and got some kind of sound that you were looking. Now, you have the most advanced sound your playback is able to throw. Pretend that you identify that you would like to have something more. It might be anything: let say less mechanical character, deeper bass, more articulate phrasing, high dynamic range in lower volumes or more stable tone control in soft and loud passages. However, you playback is operating at very high of it’s mechanical capacity and there is just no way that to get more out of it. This is a good time to look into TT and tonearm if you are comfortable with your cartridge and phonostage, as TT and tonearm are primary parties that hold your mechanical limit.

I do not insist that TT like RX-5000 might open another sonic level of that mechanical capacity. It is very possible that some kind of new flimsy TT with electronic control of itself will do the job. We just do not have the more or less credible data in this respect and the people out there (including myself) might be wrong. Micro Seiki RX-5000 is just a vision of how no-nonsense TT might be build and in my view RX-5000 is a very good no-nonsense vintage TT. Still, I do not know how to market this TT as we do not have a fretwork to talk, think about the TT sound. I did receive a few emails asking about the sound of my RX-5000. I did told that my RX-5000 has some removable modification of platter (subroutine layer under hard mat) that in my view makes it better. However, how valid my view? I have no idea.

I kind of like this TT and I had a difficult time to decide to let it go. I have many audio items that in a way “unique” that I been keeping in storage and value them for the performance that they deliver. However, recently I change my view on the subject and I am no longer value my basemen as some kind grave yard of audio exotics. I am slowly letting some of my good drivers, tonearms and some other unused pieces of equipment to go as I do not need to keep them. Now is the turn of my RX-5000. I will be sad that I do not have it as I love this TT but as anything else in the life – one door is closing another is opening. I hope my RX-5000 will find a good home for somebody and I hope the new owner will appreciate it as much as I do.

It's a pisser, all right, but a high-demands, OCD hi-fi nut might "realistically" spend years trying to get the most from a "serious" TT/arm/cartridge rig.  IMO, most people are probably better off with something "easy to use", if that is not an oxymoron when applied to even a semi-serious TT/arm/cartridge.  Having owned/used a Technics SP10, I would say that is is relatively easy to use, if not in the "serious" category in terms of ultimate potential.  Dunno about the other TTs just thrown into this discussion via the link to another, but the MS 5000 looks fairly "straight forward" to me.  For openers, I take a single, "nominal"  AC motor and belt or thread drive, along with a heavy, damped platter, as good things to start with.  However, I think the $13.5k might be the least of what's required to make this TT do its best.  Not that this fact would ever dawn on the average punter at the point of initiation...


Paul S

N-set wrote:

...no wonder with the impotency of the current industry to produce anything reasonable….

It's starting to look like an unspoken rule that a contemporary "TT manufacturer" is expected to offer a "package" that includes an arm, and many of these folks even offer "their own" cartridges, as well.  It also looks like many of these "combinations" wind up taking away from an otherwise useful TT, arm or cartridge...

Speaking of "useful", I bought my SOTA new in...  1988, and it's never been down, apart from when I split a bearing, while moving the thing across town without engaging its "transit screws"; in other words, the resultant damage was totally my fault.  The only tweaking this TT ever needs is to keep it level as the house slowly tilts and slides to Hell.  I mention this because I think SOME used TTs are viable options, to save money; they seem to run realiably for a LONG time.  Basically, I'm not sure there's an advantage to new ones I have seen/heard, at least not in the systems I've seen/heard them in!

I would like to play with the newer Spiral Groove TT, and maybe the big Merrill; but not badly enough to pony up for one!  What else is a better risk than the old Micro?

Paul S

Stitch wrote:

… It is known for years, that the Raven has problems with motor(s) and is highly colored in reproduction abilities…

Sad to think of people mooning over TT porn, and reading all the "specs", imagining what this will [undoubtedly] do to finally send their systems into orbit.  Sure, a good TT has good parts; but how the parts are used is at least as important as the parts, themselves.  And by this I mean, how the parts are put together by the maker, AND how the product is used by the user.  Too bad the high-end parts do not come with viable instructions for the makers, and too bad the TTs do not come with REAL manuals that will REALLY tell the users how to use them.

Speakers are sad because there aren't any good ones available for purchase.  TTs are sad because nobody knows how to use even the best of them.

As a possibly interesting aside, I found the motor on my then-old (and now-quite-old) Rek-O-Kut "broadcast" TT to be just fine, as long as I used "pro" recording tape or a silk thread as a drive "belt".  Sure, this TT had other issues; but the motor was "good enough", which is good enough for me.  I say, when it comes to TTs, quit while you're ahead.  Sure, I enjoy intellectual excercises as much as the next person.  But I would never get rid of my present TT until I had another one up and running and I was totally convinced - for a long time - that it was signifcantly better as it applies to Music; and even then, it would have to be just as easy to use and reliable as my present TT, as well.  I have seen it all too often, people can throw a whole lot of money at this one and wind up essentially empty handed.

Paul S